Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk aboutVisualEditor
You could start by making the edit links permanently visible and clearly labeled. The mouse-over thing is really annoying, as I click on the wrong link often and the delay getting back to where I wanted to be is frustrating. Display them as differently coloured buttons. [Wikitext editor] and [Visual editor (beta)], that are fixed in visibility and position. It becomes easy to select the link you want, the screen stops flickering, you are warned that VE is beta. Nobody needs to add custom code to work in the way they prefer. A large number of complaints stop coming in. The amount of useful feedback is not likely to be reduced, but maybe a bit of the rage dies down. Or you could explain why this would not work. Or you could carry on ignoring the suggestion. Your choice. Peter - Original Message - From: Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk aboutVisualEditor On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:13 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a subjective one, please explain how de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't.) Hey David, to me, this isn't about power dynamics (who decides, what is the threshold, etc.) but about doing the right thing. It's pretty clear where the en.wp RFC is going - a lot of users aren't comfortable enough with the state of VE to give it the level of visibility it has. Fair enough. I'm not going to dismiss that concern as conservatism about change or any BS like that. There's plenty of that, and there'll be more, but that's not the core issue right now. Where we're coming from is simple. VE needed to get out of the development model with a tiny group of users. It's been absolutely critical to get the level of feedback we've been getting, and to have thousands of users hit every edge case combination of browser/OS/template complexity/editing operation. To get real world reports on various aspects of the experience. To have people in India or Argentina tell us We used VE in a workshop, and here are some of the things that worked and didn't work. And this is not a one-time thing. We can't just work through a mountain of feedback in a waterfall development model and hope that all our assumptions about how to fix this or that complex issue will work out in practice. You can throw cheap user tests at every design, but at the end of the day, you need to go into the real world. Doug Engelbart put it well: The rate at which a person can mature is directly proportional to the embarrassment he can tolerate. This is why our preference is to keep fixing issues every day, as we have been, addressing many of the highest priority real world issues, including performance improvements, reducing nowiki escaping, improving template/citation dialogs, etc. And every time we push out one of those changes, we learn quickly whether it's working or not. The opt-in alpha period wasn't sufficient to give us a large diversity of users. The large-scale beta we're in right now, in spite of not taking anything away from the ability to edit wikitext, is feeling too disruptive for many at this time. What's a reasonable middle ground we could shoot for? In order to continually improve, we really need to build a large pool of users that include IPs, new users, and experienced users. One possibility is to aim for a prominent beta switch that's available to all, similar to what we have on the mobile site. That would be an opportunity to consolidate beta features, and to consistently treat beta as opt-in as is being requested, while increasing the diversity of the pool through increased prominence and recruiting. We'd have some self-selection bias if we don't do better recruiting. Another possibility would be to just maintain a separate, clearly labeled tab for the VisualEditor that gives a prominent beta notice on first-time invocation, with easy permanent dismissal. We may also need to continue to run split A/B tests for different user groups, in order to really get solid quantitative data on experience differences. Other thoughts ideas? All of this is to say - to me this isn't a game with a winner or a loser. We're working on this together to build an awesome editing environment, not to score political points. So let's iterate and find the best way forward together. :) Cheers, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk aboutVisualEditor
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:51 PM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: You could start by making the edit links permanently visible and clearly labeled. Yeah, I've already requested this, since it seems like an easy win. The mouseover behavior is really not a good solution - it was an attempt to find a compromise between ensuring continued availability of wikitext editing for sections while reducing clutter, but it doesn't really serve that purpose well. It makes wikitext editing secondary, which is unreasonable, adds screen flicker, and doesn't translate to touch devices. We've been procrastinating for too long finding the perfect solution for this problem, when really we'll probably just need to take a marginal clutter hit right now. We'll fix it. -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMF 2013 elections post-mortem
As Bishakha I believe time now is ripe to strengthen the election process and that we should aim for a standing committee. In the same time I think it would be good to look into this group a bit further (technical support, how to elect the committee, split dates for FDC/board elections etc). I have put up a proposal at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_elections_2013/Post_mortem/Report_from_Risker where I differ with Bishakha on the size and think five members, more dedicated, would do Anders Bishakha Datta skrev 2013-07-30 08:54: Dear all, Risker has prepared a detailed report of the 2013 elections outlining several of the challenges that the Elections Committee faced this year. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_elections_2013/Post_mortem/Report_from_Risker#Discussion_6 My report as board liaison is on the talk page at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_elections_2013/Post_mortem/Report_from_Risker Both these need serious movement-wide discussion. Please add your thoughts and comments so that we may consider various possibilities and act to strengthen the election process before it recedes from our consciousness. Best Bishakha ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talkaboutVisualEditor
That should help, Any idea of when we can expect the change? Cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talkaboutVisualEditor On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:51 PM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: You could start by making the edit links permanently visible and clearly labeled. Yeah, I've already requested this, since it seems like an easy win. The mouseover behavior is really not a good solution - it was an attempt to find a compromise between ensuring continued availability of wikitext editing for sections while reducing clutter, but it doesn't really serve that purpose well. It makes wikitext editing secondary, which is unreasonable, adds screen flicker, and doesn't translate to touch devices. We've been procrastinating for too long finding the perfect solution for this problem, when really we'll probably just need to take a marginal clutter hit right now. We'll fix it. -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talkaboutVisualEditor
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: That should help, Any idea of when we can expect the change? Last time I discussed with Trevor he mentioned that it was a trivial fix (we just need to remove the hover effect), so let me bug them tomorrow :). -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
Thanks Erik for the helpful attitude. Out of curiosity (not sure if this was discussed in more detail before - apologies for that), is it indeed true that Visual Editor is significantly slower than the regular editor (it feels like that to me, but might be my computer playing tricks on me), and is there any chance this will be overcome soon? I'm asking because you state that you want VE to move outside the small group of users - and making it faster might quite easily make it more popular with the non-diehard-non-new users. Right now I often simply use the regular editor for simple edits, because it is just quicker (less clicks, but also faster loading). Lodewijk 2013/7/31 rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com Am 30.07.2013 20:14 schrieb David Gerard dger...@gmail.com: On 30 July 2013 17:03, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: If the overwhelming community sentiment is that the cost of continuous improvement with a large scale user base is larger than the benefit (as it was on dewiki), we'll switch back (or to a compromise), and use a more rigid set of acceptance criteria and a less rigid deadline for getting back into large scale usage later in the year. de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a subjective one, please explain how de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't.) Hi David, i am editing on dewp and enwp. I consider myself an experienced editor, but not an expert. I did not participate voting in dewp, but i like to try ve from time to time. Beeing a software developper I fully support eriks arguments before. Imo pragmatic and flexible decisions help such development a lot, just like Erik explained. What i would have hoped though is that the wiki syntax gets changed where it is difficult to implement. And what i would have expected are more ideas to just edit parts of a page, like e.g. hotcat does it, to avoid such a mammoth dealing with everything which feels slow then. To give three examples: 1. why not define a metadata section for every page, where categories, and access rights are stored? Then these parts already can be split out of the page ve. 2. Why not having a read and edit mode? Edit mode just adds edit links to all applicable parts of a page. 3. Why not decide references can only be after paragraphs, and edited via edit links showing up in Edit mode? so this part can be split out of page ve. Rupert ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote: de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a subjective one, please explain how de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't.) Hi David, i am editing on dewp and enwp. I consider myself an experienced editor, but not an expert. I did not participate voting in dewp, but i like to try ve from time to time. Beeing a software developper I fully support eriks arguments before. Imo pragmatic and flexible decisions help such development a lot, just like Erik explained. Certainly. However, it's the obvious question to ask, and a curious question to spend several paragraphs not answering. Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't? - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk aboutVisualEditor
It is a fair question. Peter - Original Message - From: David Gerard dger...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk aboutVisualEditor On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote: de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a subjective one, please explain how de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't.) Hi David, i am editing on dewp and enwp. I consider myself an experienced editor, but not an expert. I did not participate voting in dewp, but i like to try ve from time to time. Beeing a software developper I fully support eriks arguments before. Imo pragmatic and flexible decisions help such development a lot, just like Erik explained. Certainly. However, it's the obvious question to ask, and a curious question to spend several paragraphs not answering. Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't? - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
Erik Moeller, 31/07/2013 07:28: We can't just work through a mountain of feedback in a waterfall development model and hope that all our assumptions about how to fix this or that complex issue will work out in practice. +1 Also, such an important feature cannot be based on biased feedback from a subset of users and projects. Erik Moeller, 30/07/2013 18:03: The steady stream of feedback has been invaluable, and I think the changelog of the last few weeks demonstrates that beyond all doubt. I think it would be helpful, if possible, to give some guesstimates of this, i.e.: how longer a wait it would cost us to reach some rank of quality if the deployment was downscaled; or, what would be the deadline for feedback on aspects X and Y to be actually able to be processed and worked on, before previous development decisions become irreversible or the developers move on to something else. We have seen some other products stuck for a few weeks or months in semi-ready state, which have then been deployed and have experienced some problems that were not predicted; or other products which have been used only on en.wiki (with dozens of WMF staffers involved in processing the feedback from one single wiki) and which are later deployed to other wikis when the product is already in maintenance mode, so that those wikis will never have a chance to influence the development. If de.wiki users or other users discussing/voting on whether to delay wider VE deployment could do so knowing that delaying by x months will make us wait y months more to get use case w to work, or if we delay after day z, feedback from our community will not influence the deployment of w, the conclusions would be more meaningful. If one assumes that the cost of delaying is 0, as it's what we've been using for 12 years, of course the benefits will always seem to outweigh the downsides. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
On 07/31/2013 10:52 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: I think it would be helpful, if possible, to give some guesstimates of this, i.e.: how longer a wait it would cost us to reach some rank of quality if the deployment was downscaled; or, what would be the deadline for feedback on aspects X and Y to be actually able to be processed and worked on, before previous development decisions become irreversible or the developers move on to something else. Is it even possible to quantify this without just pulling numbers out of one's ass? It's not just a matter of 10 times the number of users means 10 times the number of bugs found since the /profile/ of the users changes drastically as well. For instance, allowing the VE only for registered editors is guaranteed to never reveal bugs/issues that only affects anonymous editing or interaction between anons and registered editors. Likewise, requiring opt-in or allowing opt-out changes the makeup of the users a great deal (the former making certain that only editors with at least some familiarity with how we work use it and thus preventing usability issues for true newbies from being found, the latter by allowing the more vocal and knowing segments of editors to hide the VE and no longer see issues they alone are well-equipped to notice or evaluate). -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
Hoi, Quality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that I learned today is that the Visual Editor will have functionality that only the more accomplished editors will enter directly or they will use templates. With VE these templates are redundant. From my perspective, the future will be with the VE and not with the horrible tortuous templates that require study to use. One of the reasons why I prefer Wikidata over Wikipedia is that Wikidata does not have templates and is certainly as relevant. When I notice the improvements in the Wikidata experience, I can only applaud the improvements made. What is truly beyond me is that people protest the availability of the VE edit button. It is the choice of everybody to use VE or not. When they do they will have a similar experience I have with Wikidata.. You can only rejoice for the improvements that are made. Given that the improvements to the VE are a top priority, this experience can only be that much more enjoyable.. For all the oldies who complain about VE I want to remind them about the Commons experience; Commons existed without any functionality. It took months before we could use the images in any Wikipedia. Really stop moaning and let that button be. Thanks, Gerard On 31 July 2013 18:26, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 07/31/2013 10:52 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: I think it would be helpful, if possible, to give some guesstimates of this, i.e.: how longer a wait it would cost us to reach some rank of quality if the deployment was downscaled; or, what would be the deadline for feedback on aspects X and Y to be actually able to be processed and worked on, before previous development decisions become irreversible or the developers move on to something else. Is it even possible to quantify this without just pulling numbers out of one's ass? It's not just a matter of 10 times the number of users means 10 times the number of bugs found since the /profile/ of the users changes drastically as well. For instance, allowing the VE only for registered editors is guaranteed to never reveal bugs/issues that only affects anonymous editing or interaction between anons and registered editors. Likewise, requiring opt-in or allowing opt-out changes the makeup of the users a great deal (the former making certain that only editors with at least some familiarity with how we work use it and thus preventing usability issues for true newbies from being found, the latter by allowing the more vocal and knowing segments of editors to hide the VE and no longer see issues they alone are well-equipped to notice or evaluate). -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Fwd: Wikimedia UK monthly report, June 2013
Hello everyone, Please see below for the Wikimedia UK monthly report for June. For those of you who prefer to view the report on wiki, you can see it herehttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June . We always welcome contributions to the chapter's monthly reports from engaged Wikimedians. Please visit the reports page for more.http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports Thanks and regards, Stevie Below is the Wikimedia UK monthly reporthttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports for the period 1st to 30th June 2013. If you want to keep up with the chapter's activities as they happen, please subscribe to our bloghttp://blog.wikimedia.org.uk/ , join a UK mailing listhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l, and/or follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/wikimediauk. If you have any questions or comments, please drop us a line on this report's talk pagehttp://uk.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Reports/2013/Juneaction=editredlink=1 . Contents [hide http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#] - 1 Program activitieshttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Program_activities - 1.1 Communityhttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Community - 1.1.1 Cambridge University Wikipedia Garden Partyhttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Cambridge_University_Wikipedia_Garden_Party - 1.1.2 Microgrant outcomehttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Microgrant_outcome - 1.2 GLAM activitieshttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#GLAM_activities - 1.3 Technologyhttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Technology - 1.4 Other activitieshttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Other_activities - 1.4.1 Wiki Loves Monumentshttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Wiki_Loves_Monuments - 1.4.2 Micrograntshttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Microgrants - 1.5 UK press coverage (and coverage of UK projects activities)http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#UK_press_coverage_.28and_coverage_of_UK_projects_.26_activities.29 - 1.6 Blog posts this monthhttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Blog_posts_this_month - 1.7 Upcoming activities in May and Junehttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Upcoming_activities_in_May_and_June - 1.7.1 May http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#May - 1.7.2 June http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#June - 2 Administrative activitieshttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Administrative_activities - 2.1 Board activitieshttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Board_activities - 2.2 News from the Chief Exechttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#News_from_the_Chief_Exec - 2.3 Communicationshttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Communications - 2.4 Fundraising and Membershiphttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2013/June#Fundraising_and_Membership Program activities Community Cambridge University Wikipedia Garden Party http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Peacock_CUWPS_garden_party_2013.jpg http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Peacock_CUWPS_garden_party_2013.jpg A peacock visited the CUWPS garden party A Wikipedia Garden Partyhttp://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:Wikipedia:Cambridge_University_Wikipedia_Society/May_Week_2013 was held in Cambridge University on 17 June. The party is Cambridge University Wikipedia Society's (CUWPS) http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:WP:CUWPS contribution to the great Cambridge University tradition of post-exam celebrations known confusingly as May Week http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:May_Week, and marks the end of the first year of CUWPS. The party was attended by eight people and one stray peacock. The human attendees included seven current Cambridge students (five of them were also Wikimedians) plus Charles Matthewshttp://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Charles_Matthews, an alumnus who has been faithfully organising Wikipedia meetups in Cambridge for many years. A Wikipedia cake was served at the party. CUWPS is now looking forward to next year. The Wikipedia stall will be back in the Cambridge University societies fair on 8-9 October and we need extra WMUK volunteers behind the stall! Please contact WMUK's education organiser, Toni Sant, if you're interested. GLAM activities June saw a range of GLAM events with topics ranging from Military History to Ballet and Black Music in the UK. The three month residency at Tyne and Wear Archives and Museums came to an end, highlights included a dialogue with WikiProject ships on the English Wikipedia which lead to the release of this image of a battleship launchhttp://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brazilian_battleship_Minas_Geraes_being_launched_1.jpg on the Tyne - now included in two featured articles. Future events that were worked on this month range from an editathon at Conway hall in August to one at the National Railway Museum in York this October.
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
Am 31.07.2013 15:07 schrieb Risker risker...@gmail.com: On 31 July 2013 08:36, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote: de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a subjective one, please explain how de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't.) Hi David, i am editing on dewp and enwp. I consider myself an experienced editor, but not an expert. I did not participate voting in dewp, but i like to try ve from time to time. Beeing a software developper I fully support eriks arguments before. Imo pragmatic and flexible decisions help such development a lot, just like Erik explained. Certainly. However, it's the obvious question to ask, and a curious question to spend several paragraphs not answering. Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't? I would also like to see a direct answer to David's very specific question. From a software developers standpoint its nice to have the 2 biggest wikis following a different strategy. Enwp is enough to get a lot of testers. But some accommodation of the users comes with it. Switching over wpde later gets again not accommodated and more critical feedback. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk aboutVisualEditor
It is not so much the presence of the button, that I ,and preumably some others, object to, as that if you switch from one wiki to another a lot, which I do, you tend to click on the wrong link a lot of the time, and that wastes time for absolutely no useful purpose whatsoever. The links should be static and easily distinguishable from the edit links on the other wikis. I am willing to help with beta testing, but only if they sort out the things that annoy me. If they dont, I will simply leave it to other people. When they run out of people willing to help then they will have to make changes to get them back. Its a simple supply and demand situation. If the devs dont supply what the users demand, the users will stop using it. Whether what the users demand is possible, practicable or even objectively desirable is a different issue. Cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk aboutVisualEditor Hoi, Quality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that I learned today is that the Visual Editor will have functionality that only the more accomplished editors will enter directly or they will use templates. With VE these templates are redundant. From my perspective, the future will be with the VE and not with the horrible tortuous templates that require study to use. One of the reasons why I prefer Wikidata over Wikipedia is that Wikidata does not have templates and is certainly as relevant. When I notice the improvements in the Wikidata experience, I can only applaud the improvements made. What is truly beyond me is that people protest the availability of the VE edit button. It is the choice of everybody to use VE or not. When they do they will have a similar experience I have with Wikidata.. You can only rejoice for the improvements that are made. Given that the improvements to the VE are a top priority, this experience can only be that much more enjoyable.. For all the oldies who complain about VE I want to remind them about the Commons experience; Commons existed without any functionality. It took months before we could use the images in any Wikipedia. Really stop moaning and let that button be. Thanks, Gerard On 31 July 2013 18:26, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 07/31/2013 10:52 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: I think it would be helpful, if possible, to give some guesstimates of this, i.e.: how longer a wait it would cost us to reach some rank of quality if the deployment was downscaled; or, what would be the deadline for feedback on aspects X and Y to be actually able to be processed and worked on, before previous development decisions become irreversible or the developers move on to something else. Is it even possible to quantify this without just pulling numbers out of one's ass? It's not just a matter of 10 times the number of users means 10 times the number of bugs found since the /profile/ of the users changes drastically as well. For instance, allowing the VE only for registered editors is guaranteed to never reveal bugs/issues that only affects anonymous editing or interaction between anons and registered editors. Likewise, requiring opt-in or allowing opt-out changes the makeup of the users a great deal (the former making certain that only editors with at least some familiarity with how we work use it and thus preventing usability issues for true newbies from being found, the latter by allowing the more vocal and knowing segments of editors to hide the VE and no longer see issues they alone are well-equipped to notice or evaluate). -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
On 31 July 2013 13:32, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote: Am 31.07.2013 15:07 schrieb Risker risker...@gmail.com: On 31 July 2013 08:36, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.com wrote: de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a subjective one, please explain how de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't.) Hi David, i am editing on dewp and enwp. I consider myself an experienced editor, but not an expert. I did not participate voting in dewp, but i like to try ve from time to time. Beeing a software developper I fully support eriks arguments before. Imo pragmatic and flexible decisions help such development a lot, just like Erik explained. Certainly. However, it's the obvious question to ask, and a curious question to spend several paragraphs not answering. Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't? I would also like to see a direct answer to David's very specific question. From a software developers standpoint its nice to have the 2 biggest wikis following a different strategy. Enwp is enough to get a lot of testers. But some accommodation of the users comes with it. Switching over wpde later gets again not accommodated and more critical feedback. Without rejecting your position, what we really want to hear is Erik Moeller's reasoning, in his role as VP Engineering. It was Erik's decision, and we want him to explain his reasoning in his own words. Risker ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Quality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that I learned today is that the Visual Editor will have functionality that only the more accomplished editors will enter directly or they will use templates. With VE these templates are redundant. Some, perhaps. But would you rather use a template or remember the multiple buttons in VE and the right CSS style/class string (if that's even possible in VE?) to do the same thing manually? From my perspective, the future will be with the VE and not with the horrible tortuous templates that require study to use. One of the reasons why I prefer Wikidata over Wikipedia is that Wikidata does not have templates and is certainly as relevant. When I notice the improvements in the Wikidata experience, I can only applaud the improvements made. Wikidata also deals with discrete bits of usually-unformatted data, rather than heavily-formatted encyclopedia articles. I'm not sure you're comparing apples to apples there. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
2013/7/31 Brad Jorsch (Anomie) bjor...@wikimedia.org: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Quality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that I learned today is that the Visual Editor will have functionality that only the more accomplished editors will enter directly or they will use templates. With VE these templates are redundant. Some, perhaps. But would you rather use a template or remember the multiple buttons in VE and the right CSS style/class string (if that's even possible in VE?) to do the same thing manually? God no. The whole idea of VE is to make people NOT have to remember CSS class names. If a template is a very common in a project, it should be a button with complete GUI in the VE's toolbar in that project. If a template is very common in many projects, it should be a button with complete GUI in all projects. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:36 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Certainly. However, it's the obvious question to ask, and a curious question to spend several paragraphs not answering. Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't? Hi David, I don't really agree with your framing - it's not about who's convincing who, but being on a sustainable path to making VisualEditor continually better, with an appropriately diverse and large base of users. That's a balancing act with any community. In the case of dewiki, it became clear pretty quickly that any additional benefit of continued feedback would be outweighed by strife and upset about the change to the default experience. In enwiki and other deployments, in spite of upset, we've received a ton of useful and actionable feedback through all of July that's enabled us to continually improve, but given the enwiki RFC on default state, it's clear that the full-on change of the default experience isn't yet sustainable in the long run as a way to run the beta. So we're looking at alternatives, as per my prior note, rather than waiting for the RFC to come to a close. Once again, the only way to continually improve VisualEditor is to ensure that we have a large base of continued use from a diverse group of users, minimizing self-selection bias, but we'll explore different ways to get there. I don't believe in hard and fast rules - in managing big and complex changes, we need to be patient with each other. On your end, we ask for forgiveness because we're going to sometimes do things that get in your way, confuse and annoy you in the process of finding ways to improve the user experience. On our end, we need to show flexibility and willingness to find a workable solution for the main problem: ensuring we're making development decisions in a real world context, not in a laboratory. All best, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
On 31 July 2013 19:27, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:36 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't? I don't really agree with your framing - it's not about who's convincing who, but being on a sustainable path to making VisualEditor continually better, with an appropriately diverse and large base of This comes across to me as a full and reasonable answer. Thanks :-) - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)
On 7/29/13 10:50 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jan Ainali jan.ain...@wikimedia.se wrote: I have not read the vision statement as it is the production of knowledge that need be availible to every human being, but the consumption. Actually, having co-drafted the Vision Statement (it was drafted at the October 2006 Board retreat in Frankfurt and then finalized after community discussion), I can assure you that that was not the intent. I recall that Florence and I talked about that specific aspect a fair bit. We proposed the language share in over given free access to in order to emphasize that it's not a one-directional process (some treasure trove of knowledge that you are given access to), but a process we are creating an opportunity to participate in. It could be made clearer, but that was the intent. I second that statement Florence ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] NSA
See attachment. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data Fred___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
See attachment. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data the NSA has created a multi-tiered system that allows analysts to store interesting content in other databases, such as one named Pinwale which can store material for up to five years. Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
How is this related to the foundation? On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: See attachment. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites. Risker On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote: How is this related to the foundation? On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: See attachment. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
Hmmm, the word wiki isn't named anywhere. On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites. Risker On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote: How is this related to the foundation? On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: See attachment. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
It's from a slide they have a bit down the page with our logal about why they are interested in http. You can search for nearly everything a typical user does on the internet You can also see the slide on Jimmy's tweet about said issue: https://twitter.com/jimmy_wales/status/362626509648834560 There is an ongoing thread on wikitech about https again stemming from this. James James Alexander Legal and Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation (415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote: Hmmm, the word wiki isn't named anywhere. On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites. Risker On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote: How is this related to the foundation? On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: See attachment. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article: https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under discussion on the Wikitech-L list.) Risker On 31 July 2013 15:44, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote: Hmmm, the word wiki isn't named anywhere. On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites. Risker On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote: How is this related to the foundation? On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: See attachment. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
Look at the attached image. Fred Hmmm, the word wiki isn't named anywhere. On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites. Risker On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com wrote: How is this related to the foundation? On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: See attachment. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article: https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under discussion on the Wikitech-L list.) Risker Aye, it's a short bit down the page but included around screenshots and explanations of the tools they use to analyze traffic by keyword (and so what led to Jimmy's understandable reaction imo) James ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article: https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under discussion on the Wikitech-L list.) Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud Fuck. Fuck these people. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On 31 July 2013 21:00, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article: https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under discussion on the Wikitech-L list.) Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud Fuck. Fuck these people. How DARE they use us as their example. HOW DARE THEY. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:28 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 July 2013 19:27, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:36 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't? I don't really agree with your framing - it's not about who's convincing who, but being on a sustainable path to making VisualEditor continually better, with an appropriately diverse and large base of This comes across to me as a full and reasonable answer. Thanks :-) - d. Commiserations. If would hazard a guess that 450+ clear and indignant votes against the VisualEditor on the German Wikipedia, collected within the space of a weekend, spoke much louder than a trickle of moans by a few dozen people on the English Wikipedia, where almost everybody was at first inclined to be polite and assume good faith. Most people did not want to rain on the Foundation's parade. I mean, look at how Jimbo sold the VisualEditor to the press at the start of the roll-out: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/10196578/Wikipedia-introduces-new-features-to-entice-editors.html ---o0o--- “VisualEditor is a user interface that is much more familiar to people. When you click edit you get something that looks very much like any word processor, and you can change things and do whatever you want.” ---o0o--- Whatever you want indeed. Except add a citation: http://www.dnaindia.com/blogs/1863070/post-wikipedia-editing-session-for-journalism-students-at-sophia-polytechnic ---o0o--- After spending a bit of time dealing with connectivity issues and *finding out that the Visual Editor doesn’t function on mobile devices and Internet Explorer*, everyone started rolling on the demo-cum-live editing session. The volunteers had chosen two biography articles for creation on the English language Wikipedia, based on a list of possible subjects provided by the department. Rohini did a step-by-step demo of how to create a page, how to ensure there are enough third-party references available etc, and created a biographical stub on Dina Vakil. The exact same exercise was given to the students, who followed the same process in their groups, and created a stub article on Ritu Menon. *All the groups got stuck at using the reference/ citations templates on the Visual Editor, so we switched back to wiki syntax.* ---o0o--- In part, the German Wikipedia had the advantage of seeing the problems accumulate on the English Wikipedia before it was their turn to experience the same horrors. They had a chance to see the reality as opposed to the PR spin, and to see how big the gap was between what was promised and what was delivered. Seeing the mountain of unfixed bugs assembled as a result of the English Wikipedia's feedback, they wisely said nein, danke. I also don't understand why the Foundation would need any more feedback at this point in time. Developers haven't even fixed bugs that have been known for months. It seems just catching up with Bugzilla would be enough to keep them busy for a while. For example, I just learnt that it was reported almost two months ago that you cannot take a reference into the clipboard. If you try, you either can't do it at all, or you actually end up accidentally deleting the reference content, leaving Wikipedia with just the plain-character string [1]. This is a problem that can do pretty nasty damage to an article, besides angering editors, or making newbies feel incompetent if the next person shouts at them because they deleted a perfectly good reference. That bug was first reported on 13 June. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49396 It was reported again on 2 July. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50594 It was reported again on 29 July (by me). https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52212 It still hasn't been fixed. I fail to see the point in having the same error reported time and again, and having developers spend their time marking reports Resolved because they are duplicates of earlier reports of the same, still unsolved issue, rather than spending their time actually fixing the bug. Andreas ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:00 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 July 2013 21:00, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article: https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under discussion on the Wikitech-L list.) Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud Fuck. Fuck these people. How DARE they use us as their example. HOW DARE THEY. Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are looking up is powerful knowledge. - Ryan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On 31 July 2013 21:47, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote: Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are looking up is powerful knowledge. That doesn't make it one dot less reprehensible. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote: Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are looking up is powerful knowledge. - Ryan Indeed. It's much more safe and sensible to just go down to your library and check out a book. Oh, wait. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information. It's one thing to have suspicions and theories about it; but if the third party is constantly denying the allegations and with no recourse there's no point in getting angry. Now that we have reasonable doubt, I hesitate to call it proof, we can start making tremendous amounts of noise. ~Matt Walker ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Matthew Walker mwal...@wikimedia.org wrote: What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information. It's one thing to have suspicions and theories about it; but if the third party is constantly denying the allegations and with no recourse there's no point in getting angry. Now that we have reasonable doubt, I hesitate to call it proof, we can start making tremendous amounts of noise. ~Matt Walker I think that's just naive. Of course it was always denied until it became impossible to deny it. That's how these things work. But I have honestly assumed for many years that virtually everything transmitted over almost any electronic medium was collected and analyzed in some way. That appears to be the case, and in fact, I expected them to have gone further than they have. It seems that most of the data they collect is wiped within 3 days; that the data itself can only be analyzed under a fairly specific set of minimization rules after the approval of a senior executive in the administration, that the rules are drawn from generally accepted 4th amendment jurisprudence, etc. The cynic in me is also convinced that virtually all Western countries do the same sort of thing, if probably on a smaller scale. I would bet all the money I have that at a minimum the French, the English and the Germans maintain roughly similar intelligence gathering programs. But of course, they will deny it until it becomes impossible to deny it. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On 31 July 2013 23:01, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: I think that's just naive. Of course it was always denied until it became impossible to deny it. That's how these things work. But I have honestly assumed for many years that virtually everything transmitted over almost any electronic medium was collected and analyzed in some way. That appears to be the case, and in fact, I expected them to have Well done! You're very clever. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
Thanks David. Always appreciate your wit. That said, I wasn't claiming that anticipating being monitored was exceptional. Quite the opposite; I said I was surprised there was anyone who didn't already assume everything was trapped and traced. Your reaction of Fuck. Fuck these people. suggests you were surprised they might be keeping tabs on Wikipedia. Although I wouldn't take the use of the Wikipedia logo as complete confirmation (it could just be an illustration, for the audience, of how much people use http traffic), its hard to imagine most people would be shocked to learn Wikipedia traffic isn't exempt from a dragnet that catches literally everything else. ~Nathan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made. Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On 7/31/2013 3:31 PM, Nathan wrote: And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made. Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA. Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from most to all in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind of rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's how they get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions. --Michael Snow ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com wrote: On 7/31/2013 3:31 PM, Nathan wrote: And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made. Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA. Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from most to all in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind of rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's how they get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions. --Michael Snow It's hardly a conspiracy theory. Given the differences between mail.ru and Wikipedia, I should think it would be clear why one might be subject to a direct demand for transferring data while the other is not. If anything, I think it's more reasonable to assume that Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter, Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be able to do anything other than deny it, but we can easily see why data held by Wikipedia (including partially anonymized e-mails, file uploads, talk page communication, etc.) would be of interest to intelligence agencies. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.comwrote: Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA. Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from most to all in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind of rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's how they get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions. Thanks for the voice of reason, Michael. As a quick reminder here, before any conspiracy theories about orders and data retention get out of control: 1) We've flat-out denied any sort of involvement in this, and we continue to stand by that denial: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/06/14/prism-surveillance-wikimedia/ 2) Take with a grain of salt, of course, but our understanding (based on the few gag orders that have been made public) is that we could be forced to not confirm having received a National Security Letter, but we can't actually be forced to lie about it. In other words, if we'd received one we would not be allowed to say we've received one, but we also could not be forced to deny it - we'd always have the option to remain silent instead. 3) We understand that the rules cause some people not to trust our denial, and can't entirely blame them! That is why we've asked the government to change the rules, so that you can have more trust in us next time we issue the same denial: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/07/18/wikimedia-foundation-letter-transparency-nsa-prism/ This is not to say that the http/https issue isn't important; like Engineering, we think progress on that issue is important. But it is important to keep we don't yet deploy https as widely as we'd like separate from there are secret orders to transfer all our logs to the NSA. Thanks- Luis -- Luis Villa Deputy General Counsel Wikimedia Foundation 415.839.6885 ext. 6810 NOTICE: *This message may be confidential or legally privileged. If you have received it by accident, please delete it and let us know about the mistake. As an attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation, for legal/ethical reasons I cannot give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer for, community members, volunteers, or staff members in their personal capacity.* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
I think it's more reasonable to assume that Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter, Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be able to do anything other than deny it, but we can easily see why data held by Wikipedia (including partially anonymized e-mails, file uploads, talk page communication, etc.) would be of interest to intelligence agencies. The capacity of the Wikimedia Foundation to keep a secret of this nature is law. Simply too many outlaws; something NSA could probably figure out; they are not called intelligence for nothing. Fred ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
I think it's more reasonable to assume that Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter, Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be able to do anything other than deny it, but we can easily see why data held by Wikipedia (including partially anonymized e-mails, file uploads, talk page communication, etc.) would be of interest to intelligence agencies. The capacity of the Wikimedia Foundation to keep a secret of this nature is low. Simply too many outlaws; something NSA could probably figure out; they are not called intelligence for nothing. Fred Changed law to low ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On 07/31/2013 09:27 PM, Ryan Lane wrote: I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation. And very many of us live outside the jurisdiction of the entities that would be doing the monitoring and would be very noisy indeed if something of that nature took place. -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
Also keep in mind that WMF has explicitly stated that they received no such demand. If they had, they still could say If we had received such a demand, we couldn't legally discuss it, still comply with the order, and let us read between the lines. While I don't always agree with WMF, I have more regard for them than to think they would flat out lie about a matter that important. On Jul 31, 2013 7:59 PM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 07/31/2013 09:27 PM, Ryan Lane wrote: I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation. And very many of us live outside the jurisdiction of the entities that would be doing the monitoring and would be very noisy indeed if something of that nature took place. -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
Nathan wrote: ... It seems that most of the data they collect is wiped within 3 days; that the data itself can only be analyzed under a fairly specific set of minimization rules Are you referring to the 2009 Holder minimization rules which per http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2013/06/how-many-americans-does-the-nsa-spy-on-a-lot-of-them.htmlrequire sharing records on anyone who has ever sent or received email or chat from a foreign national with the FBI, or the more recent three hop minimization rules which require permanent storage of the records pertaining to the roughly one billion people who are connected to people connected to people connected with suspects? ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote: I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation. Key word there being knowingly. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote: I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation. Key word there being knowingly. I don't know why the NSA would sneak around in our data centres mirroring our ethernet ports if they already have almost all of our access logs by capturing unencrypted traffic as it passes through XKeyscore nodes. I think you should save the conspiracy theories until after we switch anons to HTTPS, that's when they will have an incentive. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: I mean, look at how Jimbo sold the VisualEditor to the press at the start of the roll-out: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/10196578/Wikipedia-introduces-new-features-to-entice-editors.html ---o0o--- “VisualEditor is a user interface that is much more familiar to people. When you click edit you get something that looks very much like any word processor, and you can change things and do whatever you want.” Except that of course the narrative you're trying to establish here is completely wrong. Wikimedia Foundation did not launch VisualEditor with great fanfare, promising a panacea of perfect and beautiful software. We announced it through a single blog post, inviting feedback and support with the rollout. We launched a community portal which had the following statements on it from day one: ---o0o--- (I like your quotation markup, let's add it to wikitext .. j/k) At the moment, the VisualEditor has a number of bugs; this is inevitable. The only way to only deploy software when it is bug-free is not to deploy it at all - we're still finding errors in MediaWiki, and that's 10 years old. If you encounter an issue, please do not hesitate to report it on the Feedback page. There are also some areas where we still have to build entirely new features. Current limitations include: * Odd-looking — We currently struggle with making the HTML we produce look like what you are used to seeing, so styling and so on may look a little (or even very) odd. We're increasing the time we put into this, but so far our focus has been on making sure that the VisualEditor does not alter wikitext unexpectedly. * Incomplete editing — Some elements of complex formatting will display and let you edit their contents, but not let users edit their structure or add new entries – such as tables or definition lists. Adding features in this area is one of our priorities. * Limited browser support — Right now, we have only got VisualEditor to work in the most modern versions of Firefox, Chrome and Safari. It does not work in very old versions of each browser, and does not work in Opera, although a volunteer is working on Opera support. Internet Explorer currently does not work, but we aim to have support for the latest versions of IE by the time we release the VisualEditor more widely. * Articles and User pages only — The VisualEditor will only be enabled for the article and user namespaces (so you can make changes in a personal sandbox). In time, we will build out the kinds of specialised editing tools needed for non-articles, but our focus has been on articles. Because of these limitations, and inevitable bugs, we recommend that users click review your changes before saving the page, and report any problems they encounter. ---o0o--- This list has been community-updated since then and is a transparent and honest reflection of the known areas of improvement. In terms of media, when we've received inquiries, our response has generally been We're still in beta, talk to us in a few months. The article you're quoting from is a single story that's about new features that WMF is launching, of which VisualEditor is one; it also discusses Echo and Flow. It also includes the following quote from Jimmy about the VisualEditor. ---o0o--- “This is version 1.0, which means it is the first one that has really had mass adoption and mass use,” said Wales. “We've had a lot of feedback and there's going to be a lot of upgrades and changes, and we're investing a lot in that kind of thing.” ---o0o--- The VisualEditor itself has a Beta button which, when clicked, shows the following text: ---o0o--- VisualEditor is in 'beta'. You may encounter software issues, and you may not be able to edit parts of the page. ---o0o--- Is the Beta notice too small and obscure? Fair criticism. But if you want to claim that we're somehow misleading users about the state of VisualEditor, you'll have to do a lot better. I also don't understand why the Foundation would need any more feedback at this point in time. James has written a very good and detailed response to this here. Please read it: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:VisualEditor/Default_State_RFColdid=56714#Suggested_changes In a nutshell, it's not about volume of feedback, but about iterating with a representative real world set of users, rather than in isolation. In terms of volume, right now we're dealing with a firehose, which is more than we strictly need, but has the huge advantage of being an unbiased sample of users. We understand it's very disruptive, which is why we've been responsive to RFCs and community consensus asking us to slow down. But we can't do it with a trickle of self-selected users. We need a steady stream of real user interactions and user feedback from different groups (IPs, new users, experienced users) in order to iterate effectively. That's not trivial to
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor
Op 2013/07/31 21:58, Erik Moeller schreef: There's a reason every start-up on the planet follows the idea of the Minimum Viable Product like a religion. If you had followed that, and understood that the Minimum Viable Product included cut-and-paste, table editing, and maybe the ability to successfully and completely edit the hundred or so most edited articles out of all the millions, you wouldn't have hit the level of pushback you've encountered. You released a sub-viable product, which is what caused the storm you encountered. I personally will never judge a team too harshly for releasing too early, because the normal bias is the opposite, and it's counterproductive. I'll be content with just blaming you, then. You value your team's productivity over everyone else's. I don't know why you expected everyone that has worked on Wikipedia for years to cheerfully clean up after you when you make it abundantly clear that you hold everything we have worked on in disdain. KWW ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
very helpful, james. thanks so much for clue-ing me in. definitely want to know more of the backstory on the chapters sometime. ttyt :) On Wednesday, July 31, 2013, Tim Starling wrote: On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.orgjavascript:; wrote: I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation. Key word there being knowingly. I don't know why the NSA would sneak around in our data centres mirroring our ethernet ports if they already have almost all of our access logs by capturing unencrypted traffic as it passes through XKeyscore nodes. I think you should save the conspiracy theories until after we switch anons to HTTPS, that's when they will have an incentive. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; ?subject=unsubscribe -- *Anna Koval* Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation 415-839-6885 x 6729 ako...@wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA
Whoops! :) That wasn't meant to be a reply-to-all. Sorry, everyone. Rookie mistake... :] On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:36 PM, Anna Koval ako...@wikimedia.org wrote: very helpful, james. thanks so much for clue-ing me in. definitely want to know more of the backstory on the chapters sometime. ttyt :) On Wednesday, July 31, 2013, Tim Starling wrote: On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane rl...@wikimedia.org wrote: I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation. Key word there being knowingly. I don't know why the NSA would sneak around in our data centres mirroring our ethernet ports if they already have almost all of our access logs by capturing unencrypted traffic as it passes through XKeyscore nodes. I think you should save the conspiracy theories until after we switch anons to HTTPS, that's when they will have an incentive. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- *Anna Koval* Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation 415-839-6885 x 6729 ako...@wikimedia.org -- *Anna Koval* Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation 415-839-6885 x 6729 ako...@wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
