Re: [Wikimedia-l] The Case for Federation: Should Parts of WMF Be Spun Off?

[Legoktm]

Hi!

On 03/17/2016 07:22 PM, Erik Moeller wrote:
> I can see three potential benefits from a more federated model:
> 
> 1) Resilience. If any one organization experiences a crisis, other
> independent organizations suffer to a lesser degree than departments
> within that organization.
> 
> 2) Focus. Wikimedia’s mission is very broad, and an organization with
> a clearly defined mandate is less likely to be pulled in many
> different directions -- at every level.
> 
> 3) Accountability. Within a less centralized federation, it is easier
> to ensure that funding flows to those who do work the movement wants
> them to do.

I strongly agree with you.

> == Where to go from here? ==
> 
> 
> 
> An important thing to remember here (a lesson I’ve had to learn
> painfully) is that big changes are best made in small steps, with room
> for trial and error.

I also agree with this too. :) In my candidate statement[1] for the
current board election, I outlined a vision where existing affiliates
would do some of the technical work that the WMF currently does (or
doesn't). Many of the existing affiliates already have legal
infrastructure and staff in place, and would require less bootstrapping
than an entirely new organization, which should make it easier to test
and demonstrate that a federated model will work, and be an advantage to
the movement. One downside would be that regional chapters may be less
focused (benefit #2) compared to say, an organization specifically
dedicated to non-WMF MediaWiki development (I don't like the term
third-party).

> The fact that WMF has just experienced a major organizational crisis
> should not itself fill us with pessimism and despair. But we also
> shouldn’t ignore it. We must learn from it and do what reason tells us
> -- and in my view that is to build a more resilient _federation_ of
> organizations than what we have today.

+1.

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominations/Kunal_Mehta

-- Kunal Mehta / Legoktm

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Joseph Seddon]

Hey John et. al

Apologies for the delaying in responding to the last few emails. I want to
try and cover a couple of the points that been raised.

I'll first start with the history. I am very much aware of the background
surrounding merchandise, in particular the chapters and the changes in the
chapter agreements back in 2009 that essentially stopped all that. At the
time I was on the board of Wikimedia UK and I very much remember the
frustrations that surrounded the changes. In terms of who has and who
hasn't run commercial stores I am not going to even attempt to summarise
that here and I honestly don't think people rehashing the particular
individual histories of trademark agreements of the last half a decade for
how ever many affiliates have had them. We all have far more interesting
and worthwhile things to talk about in the movement.

So here's to looking forward and where we can do things better:

Where no exchange of money is involved, the Trademark policy already does a
good job of allowing affiliates or members of the community to print or
make one-off merchandise to give away at the events they run, or to members
of their organisations.

Where we could do probably do better is where the exchange of money is only
for the specific purpose of cost recovery. The sort of thing that Pine was
talking about in relation to Wikiconference USA. Merchandise isn't cheap
and where possible it makes sense to be able to offset the cost. It's
probably an area we should strive to make easier, more consistent and less
of a struggle for affiliates and where we could probably make the biggest
impact in improving the ability of affiliates to produce small runs of cool
stuff.

The operating of stores by affiliates is one that I think there is a lot of
potential in. The WMF store, in its very focused scope, works well. But
there are a lot of areas where we could do better. Multilingual store and
checkpoint support is lacking, international shipping is expensive, support
for local currency should be better and an ability to print on demand is an
area that needs work. I think that this could be improved through other
stores. It just needs to be done right and a good framework set out for
chapters to do this work. I and others will need to time work out what that
will be.

This whole topic was something that was one of the first that was discussed
about areas that at as department we could do better in terms of working
with the community in. There is a lot of good will from those above meand I
think over time we will see some good changes here. It's not the only area
I am working on and we are only 6-7 weeks into me being on board but I will
get to it.

I am going to be in Berlin for the Wikimedia Conference and I think it
would be a good place to start conversations about how we can move forward
in an area that realistically should not be controversial in any way but
that should be done well.

Regards
Seddon

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 11:07 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 12:51 AM, Sam Klein 
> wrote:
> >..
> > On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 12:07 PM, John Mark Vandenberg  >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> IIRC, there were several affiliates that were previously running a
> >> store, and naturally supporting the most relevant languages of their
> >> community.  They were effectively shutdown, and localisation lost due
> >> to centralisation to the WMF.
> >
> >
> > Is this true?  Please record any actual examples on:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_trademarks
>
> I dont have any actual examples, only possibly faulty memories of
> events that mostly affected other affiliates.
>
> As I recall, and apologies in advance for my memories fading or being
> faulty, the French, Italian and German chapters were running what
> could be considered a store before the WMF's "Chapters Agreement"
> and/or "Fundraising Agreements" of 2009/2010 were required to be
> signed by chapters , and the language of those agreements removed the
> possibility of merchandise.
>
> Again as I recall, many chapters tried to negotiate amendments to that
> prohibition, and I vaguely recall the French chapter being successful,
> and I vaguely recall the Italian chapter being unsuccessful.
>
> I see the French chapter's shop is still open.
>
> http://wikimediashop.spreadshirt.net/
>
> I do not see a shop for Italia or Deutschland, but locals may be able
> to find what I can not.
>
> Any details regarding the old chapters stores, especially German and
> Italian, would be most welcomed to augment and possibly correct my
> vague recollections.
>
> Sj, 99% of this happened during your time on the board, so it would be
> great if you can help provide some clarity with whatever memories you
> have.
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Lodewijk]

Hi Jimmy,

Thanks for the general pointer, but given the high amount of discussions on
your talkpage, I'm uncertain which comment you are referring to?

Lodewijk

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On 23 March 2016 at 10:01, Jimmy Wales  wrote:
>
> > But I did publish something on my user talk page that is relevant.
>
> Diff, please.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Who runs the Wikimedia Shop ?

[Pine W]

Thanks SJ. I largely agree with you there.

There is a complicated backstory about the hats, but I think it's safe to
say that we in Cascadia aren't especially interested in running our own
merch store. However, given the years of delays of getting the hats into
the WMF store, it would be nice if we could get a license to make
occasional production runs of hats and other merchandise and resell the
merchandise at cost, particularly if WikiConference USA happens in Seattle
later this year.

In general, WMF Trademarks is highly protective of the WMF marks. Some of
that is understandable, but it adds a lot of red tape and delays that I
believe sometimes delay or obstruct progress toward goals that are more
important than zealous and highly detailed trademark protections.

Pine

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Sam Klein  wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 7:07 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
> wrote:
> >
> > Again as I recall, many chapters tried to negotiate amendments to that
> > prohibition, and I vaguely recall the French chapter being successful,
> > and I vaguely recall the Italian chapter being unsuccessful.
> >
> > I see the French chapter's shop is still open.
> >
> > http://wikimediashop.spreadshirt.net/
> >
> > I do not see a shop for Italia or Deutschland, but locals may be able
> > to find what I can not.
> >
> > Any details regarding the old chapters stores, especially German and
> > Italian, would be most welcomed to augment and possibly correct my
> > vague recollections.
> >
> > Sj, 99% of this happened during your time on the board, so it would be
> > great if you can help provide some clarity with whatever memories you
> > have.
>
>
> TLDR: If a local group comes up with a swag item and design, it should be
> possible to get that into the hands of supporters and community members in
> short order.  What group produces the item, from where it is shipped in
> what batch quantities, and who pays for the item, depend a bit on context.
>
>
> I discussed this with lawyers on staff a number of times while on the
> board.  My understanding  [lawyers, please weigh in to correct me as
> needed] was that a separate agreement was necessary, but did not need to be
> onerous, and could be worked out for stores run by established
> organizations (such as french and german stores).
>
> It is possible to be extra cautious to the extent of not allowing any swag
> to use trademarks unless the central licensor has direct control over the
> quality of the produced product, though some argue that this is not
> necessary.[1]  This extra caution could be a reason not to allow one-off
> initiatives such as a run of hats carried out by a user group.  But
> established chapters & thematic orgs with offices & administrative staff
> should be able to run their own regional store (providing in-country
> shipping, a website in the national languages, ) which could handle any
> one-offs requested by user groups or projects in the area.
>
>
> Finally, for cases where the WMF is feeling trademark-conservative (smaller
> stores, or any swag with a possibility of recipients feeling that there was
> some trademark confusion), it has two further options: a] it can cover the
> full cost of local swag (if you give things away rather than selling them,
> you don't trigger the risk mentioned above, or iirc the related clause in
> the affiliate agreements)... and b] it can arrange to make the swag in the
> global store, and cover the difference in int'l shipping costs (or ship the
> results in bulk to the regional affiliate for further distribution).
>
>
> Actual data on which groups want stores and swag, and what they are looking
> for, has been scant.  I recommend organizing such plans and designs on
> meta, and noting any open tm-related discussion threads there.
>
> If it turns out that inspiring designs, requested by community groups, are
> unable to be produced because the global store cannot produce them, local
> groups cannot get a grant to cover their production, and local groups
> cannot get a simple TM agreement to let them recoup their costs from the
> recipients, then something need to be fixed.  A fix, once there is a
> specific problem in hand, should not be difficult.
>
> Warmly,
> SJ
>
> [1] For a brief & incomplete review of relevant issues, see:
>
> http://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1027=aulr
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia Zero mass effect on Wikimedia projects

[Vi to]

Personally I'd say "it's 100% wrong" but "not 100% to blame".

I've just made https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T130761 IMHO we need to
address the problem form a technical point of view, implicitly discarding
"block'em all" options.

Vito

2016-03-23 19:42 GMT+01:00 Keegan Peterzell :

> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Keegan Peterzell 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Ziko van Dijk 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, I am quite appalled by the article. Whether one wants to see
> >> something positive in pirating or not, the Wikimedia servers are not
> meant
> >> for this purpose (for good reasons). Breaking rules and taking abuse of
> an
> >> opportunity is not a goal by itself.
> >> Kind regards
> >> Ziko
> >>
> >
> > ​Call it what you want, but the world is changed when ordinary people who
> > are just trying to do ordinary things​
> >
> > ​have a roadblock put in front of them. This is that kind of thing, and
> > it's the "revolution" power of the distributed internet.​ We can shut
> them
> > down, but Angolans are going to find another way to do the very things
> that
> > those with full access to the internet take for granted. As Jason says,
> we
> > should take great caution and give deep thought before taking a binary
> side.
> >
> >
> ​Oh, and I'm not condoning the behavior or use of Wikimedia servers, but I
> do think that the entire situation is much more nuanced than the simplicity
> of "that's wrong."​
>
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia Zero mass effect on Wikimedia projects

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Keegan Peterzell 
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Ziko van Dijk  wrote:
>
>> Actually, I am quite appalled by the article. Whether one wants to see
>> something positive in pirating or not, the Wikimedia servers are not meant
>> for this purpose (for good reasons). Breaking rules and taking abuse of an
>> opportunity is not a goal by itself.
>> Kind regards
>> Ziko
>>
>
> ​Call it what you want, but the world is changed when ordinary people who
> are just trying to do ordinary things​
>
> ​have a roadblock put in front of them. This is that kind of thing, and
> it's the "revolution" power of the distributed internet.​ We can shut them
> down, but Angolans are going to find another way to do the very things that
> those with full access to the internet take for granted. As Jason says, we
> should take great caution and give deep thought before taking a binary side.
>
>
​Oh, and I'm not condoning the behavior or use of Wikimedia servers, but I
do think that the entire situation is much more nuanced than the simplicity
of "that's wrong."​


-- 
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia Zero mass effect on Wikimedia projects

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Ziko van Dijk  wrote:

> Actually, I am quite appalled by the article. Whether one wants to see
> something positive in pirating or not, the Wikimedia servers are not meant
> for this purpose (for good reasons). Breaking rules and taking abuse of an
> opportunity is not a goal by itself.
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>

​Call it what you want, but the world is changed when ordinary people who
are just trying to do ordinary things​

​have a roadblock put in front of them. This is that kind of thing, and
it's the "revolution" power of the distributed internet.​ We can shut them
down, but Angolans are going to find another way to do the very things that
those with full access to the internet take for granted. As Jason says, we
should take great caution and give deep thought before taking a binary side.

-- 
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia Zero mass effect on Wikimedia projects

[Ziko van Dijk]

Actually, I am quite appalled by the article. Whether one wants to see
something positive in pirating or not, the Wikimedia servers are not meant
for this purpose (for good reasons). Breaking rules and taking abuse of an
opportunity is not a goal by itself.
Kind regards
Ziko




Am Mittwoch, 23. März 2016 schrieb Jason Koebler :

> This is an important issue and how Wikimedia and the community handles it
> is very important. I would caution that even those who are pirating and
> sharing copyrighted materials are not "bad actors," they are people who
> have no other file sharing options who have found a creative solution in
> the face of being given partial access to the internet.
>
> Here is an article I just published on the subject:
>
>
> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/wikipedia-zero-facebook-free-basics-angola-pirates-zero-rating
>
> On 22 March 2016 at 07:37, Mwaoshe Njemah  > wrote:
>
> > Reminder: Wikipedia Zero is actually a very good thing. We are hoping to
> > improve the quality and quantity of articles
> >
> > Mwaoshe Njemah,
> > Siku Ya Wiki Project
> > On 21 Mar 2016 09:58, "WereSpielChequers"  >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Is much of the problem about differing varieties of Portuguese? Last I
> > > heard the Portuguese language Wikipedia allowed multiple versions of
> > > Portuguese in a similar way to English - i.e. standardised at the
> article
> > > level not the project level; Though the editing base is much more
> skewed
> > to
> > > Brazil than EN is to the US. Assuming Angolan Portuguese is closer to
> the
> > > Portuguese spoken in Portugal, then just as in EN you are likely to get
> > > some goodfaith newbies "correcting" spelling to the version they know.
> If
> > > so perhaps edit filters might work. Alternatively, would it be possible
> > to
> > > do something similar to the Chinese Wikipedia and display different
> > > versions of Portuguese according to user preference/IP geography?
> > >
> > > WereSpielChequers
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jason Koebler
> Staff Writer, Motherboard  / VICE
> Host & Producer, Radio Motherboard
> 
> podcast
> 49 South 2nd Street, Brooklyn, NY 11249
> 301-412-7324
> @jason_koebler 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia Zero mass effect on Wikimedia projects

[Jason Koebler]

This is an important issue and how Wikimedia and the community handles it
is very important. I would caution that even those who are pirating and
sharing copyrighted materials are not "bad actors," they are people who
have no other file sharing options who have found a creative solution in
the face of being given partial access to the internet.

Here is an article I just published on the subject:

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/wikipedia-zero-facebook-free-basics-angola-pirates-zero-rating

On 22 March 2016 at 07:37, Mwaoshe Njemah  wrote:

> Reminder: Wikipedia Zero is actually a very good thing. We are hoping to
> improve the quality and quantity of articles
>
> Mwaoshe Njemah,
> Siku Ya Wiki Project
> On 21 Mar 2016 09:58, "WereSpielChequers" 
> wrote:
>
> > Is much of the problem about differing varieties of Portuguese? Last I
> > heard the Portuguese language Wikipedia allowed multiple versions of
> > Portuguese in a similar way to English - i.e. standardised at the article
> > level not the project level; Though the editing base is much more skewed
> to
> > Brazil than EN is to the US. Assuming Angolan Portuguese is closer to the
> > Portuguese spoken in Portugal, then just as in EN you are likely to get
> > some goodfaith newbies "correcting" spelling to the version they know. If
> > so perhaps edit filters might work. Alternatively, would it be possible
> to
> > do something similar to the Chinese Wikipedia and display different
> > versions of Portuguese according to user preference/IP geography?
> >
> > WereSpielChequers
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
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> 
>



-- 
Jason Koebler
Staff Writer, Motherboard  / VICE
Host & Producer, Radio Motherboard

podcast
49 South 2nd Street, Brooklyn, NY 11249
301-412-7324
@jason_koebler 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia Zero mass effect on Wikimedia projects

[Andreas Kolbe]

Motherboard today has a fairly comprehensive report on this:

Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems With Digital
Colonialism
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/wikipedia-zero-facebook-free-basics-angola-pirates-zero-rating

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Mwaoshe Njemah  wrote:

> Reminder: Wikipedia Zero is actually a very good thing. We are hoping to
> improve the quality and quantity of articles
>
> Mwaoshe Njemah,
> Siku Ya Wiki Project
> On 21 Mar 2016 09:58, "WereSpielChequers" 
> wrote:
>
> > Is much of the problem about differing varieties of Portuguese? Last I
> > heard the Portuguese language Wikipedia allowed multiple versions of
> > Portuguese in a similar way to English - i.e. standardised at the article
> > level not the project level; Though the editing base is much more skewed
> to
> > Brazil than EN is to the US. Assuming Angolan Portuguese is closer to the
> > Portuguese spoken in Portugal, then just as in EN you are likely to get
> > some goodfaith newbies "correcting" spelling to the version they know. If
> > so perhaps edit filters might work. Alternatively, would it be possible
> to
> > do something similar to the Chinese Wikipedia and display different
> > versions of Portuguese according to user preference/IP geography?
> >
> > WereSpielChequers
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Andy Mabbett]

On 23 March 2016 at 10:01, Jimmy Wales  wrote:

> But I did publish something on my user talk page that is relevant.

Diff, please.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Jimmy Wales]

On 3/22/16 6:18 PM, Lodewijk wrote:
> Hey Jimmy, thanks for this commitment. I would definitely be interested.
> Were you successful in getting clarity?

Still waiting to see if the board allows another board member to publish
something that will then allow me to publish further.  But I did publish
something on my user talk page that is relevant.


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