Re: [Wikimedia-l] On traceability and reliability of data we publish [was Re: [Wikidata] Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata]

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
This same mail was send at the same time to the Wikidata mailing list.. The
answer there is argued in a different way with an utterly different
outcome.. This is an example of forum shopping and the result is that there
is no single outcome, it is great example why forum shopping does not help.
It divides more than brings together.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 9 July 2018 at 04:17, Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Hello Mathieu!  I agree that tracing the full history of a data cite is
> important, independent of license.  I'm thinking about scalable solutions
> for this.
> It's definitely not the only factor in reliability; but it does matter who
> entered the data (for instance) as one way to estimate the importance of
> doublechecking a cited source to confirm that the data is found there.
>
> On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 11:59 AM mathieu lovato stumpf guntz <
> psychosl...@culture-libre.org> wrote:
>
>
> > I agree this is misconception that a copyright license make any direct
> > change to data reliability. But attribution requirement does somewhat
> > indirectly have an impact on it, as it... enforces traceability.
> > That is I strongly disagree with the following assertion: "a license
> > that requires BY sucks so hard for data [because] attribution
> > requirements grow very quickly". To my mind it is equivalent to say that
> > we will throw away traceability because it is subjectively judged too
> > large a burden, without providing any start of evidence that it indeed
> > can't be managed, at least with Wikimedia current ressources.
> >
> > Now, I don't say traceability is the sole factor one should take into
> > account in data reliability, but certainly it is one of them.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] On traceability and reliability of data we publish [was Re: [Wikidata] Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata]

[Samuel Klein]

Hello Mathieu!  I agree that tracing the full history of a data cite is
important, independent of license.  I'm thinking about scalable solutions
for this.
It's definitely not the only factor in reliability; but it does matter who
entered the data (for instance) as one way to estimate the importance of
doublechecking a cited source to confirm that the data is found there.

On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 11:59 AM mathieu lovato stumpf guntz <
psychosl...@culture-libre.org> wrote:


> I agree this is misconception that a copyright license make any direct
> change to data reliability. But attribution requirement does somewhat
> indirectly have an impact on it, as it... enforces traceability.
> That is I strongly disagree with the following assertion: "a license
> that requires BY sucks so hard for data [because] attribution
> requirements grow very quickly". To my mind it is equivalent to say that
> we will throw away traceability because it is subjectively judged too
> large a burden, without providing any start of evidence that it indeed
> can't be managed, at least with Wikimedia current ressources.
>
> Now, I don't say traceability is the sole factor one should take into
> account in data reliability, but certainly it is one of them.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Response to recent developments of United States travel ban

[Dennis During]

We are getting down to brass tacks, finally.

The interests of WMF are not whether the immigration regulations
changes "threaten
the ability of the US to attract skilled talent into the country", but
rather whether they have such an effect on the WMF and Wikimedia community
("WMF").  If WMF and its lobbying allies carved out some kind of
special treatment for a class of workers relevant to WMF

For WMF to have technical resource centers outside the US is fully
consistent with the global nature of the community.  Should it find it
desirable to move its legal domicile or some or all of its administrative
activities or more of its servers outside the US, it should do so.

The raising-the-drawbridge rhetoric simply clouds the efforts to determine
and do what's actually best for WMF

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 4:56 PM, James Salsman  wrote:

> Mario,
>
> Your argument is not convincing, because:
>
> "The so called ‘travel ban’ that was introduced by President Trump and
> the re-evaluation of the H-1B visa programme threaten the ability of
> the US to attract skilled talent into the country (Mahmud, 2017; You,
> Bohannon, & Stone, 2017). Indeed, Microsoft has already opened a
> satellite office in Vancouver, Canada to mitigate the challenges in
> accessing key talent created by these changes, with many other tech
> companies reported to be considering their options (Dixon, 2017)"
> citing:
>
> Mahmud, A. (2017). Looking beyond H-1B visas to attract technical
> talent. Harvard Business Review [online]. Retrieved June 26, 2017,
> from https://hbr.org/2017/06/looking-beyond-h-1b-visas-to-find-tech-talent
>
> You, J., Bohannon, J., & Stone, R.(2017). Raising the drawbridge.
> Science, 355(6328), 896.10.1126/science.355.6328.896
>
> Dixon, L. (2017). Tighter immigration policy pushes firms to open
> foreign satellite offices. Talent Economy [online]. Retrieved June 26,
> 2017, from http://www.talenteconomy.io/2017/06/19/tighter-
> immigration-policy-pushes-firms-open-foreign-satellite-offices/
>
> Please see also:
>
> https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1e40517da152288614b980cf9087e7dd
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/23/opinions/trump-travel-ban-
> fuels-terrorism-clapper-geltzer-olsen/index.html
>
> https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/25/trumps-travel-ban-
> might-be-legal-but-its-bad-policy/
>
> Sincerely,
> Jim
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 3:20 AM, Mario Gómez 
> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 8:53 PM, James Salsman 
> wrote:
> >
> >> The is between arbitrary border security theater and allowing the
> >> Foundation to recruit and hire the best candidates. If the Foundation
> >> was silent on the matter, there would be less of a chance of retaining
> >> the right.
> >>
> >
> > Not really. IMHO, the choice is between 1) acknowledging that we have a
> > diverse community where everyone may choose to support an organization
> > (other than the WMF) that matches their political position, or 2)
> imposing
> > a very specific political position upon the community.
> >
> > I consider the "best candidate" point a fallacy, since it works with the
> > premise that human talent is so scarce that for every position in an
> > organization there is a single or very few people in the world fit for
> it.
> > I have seen the exact same point used so often to justify positions
> against
> > diversity, equality or economic independence policies that I don't buy it
> > anymore. There are many organizational policies that are more effective
> to
> > increase the pool of candidates, such as being globally distributed
> rather
> > than forcing relocation to the US, and they do not involve this kind of
> > lobbying.
> >
> > PS.- In order to avoid thread hijacking, I will not answer here your
> points
> > about the other thread.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > MarioGom
> > ___
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>
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>



-- 
Dennis C. During
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[Wikimedia-l] Wikimédia France Governance review

[Nadine Le Lirzin]

Hi all,

As announced last month on this list[1], the Governance Assessment Report
by external auditors "Associés en gouvernance" has been published, and we
want to share it with you.

The auditors did a great work, first in their rather good understanding of
our movement complexity, and then in the numerous improvement suggestions
they delivered.

The consultation of our members – to fully associate them to the rebuilding
– is still in progress. Main changes will be submitted to a vote at next
General Assembly, by the end of the year.

The document has been translated in English and is now available on
Commons[2].

May these suggestions be useful not only for Wikimédia France, but also for
any other chapter or affiliate that would be in need of governance advice
or ideas.

Best regards,

Nadine Le Lirzin
*Wikimedia France Board Secretary*


[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2018-June/090413.html
[2]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikimedia_France_-_Governance_Assessment_Report_-_2018.pdf
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Response to recent developments of United States travel ban

[James Salsman]

Mario,

Your argument is not convincing, because:

"The so called ‘travel ban’ that was introduced by President Trump and
the re-evaluation of the H-1B visa programme threaten the ability of
the US to attract skilled talent into the country (Mahmud, 2017; You,
Bohannon, & Stone, 2017). Indeed, Microsoft has already opened a
satellite office in Vancouver, Canada to mitigate the challenges in
accessing key talent created by these changes, with many other tech
companies reported to be considering their options (Dixon, 2017)"
citing:

Mahmud, A. (2017). Looking beyond H-1B visas to attract technical
talent. Harvard Business Review [online]. Retrieved June 26, 2017,
from https://hbr.org/2017/06/looking-beyond-h-1b-visas-to-find-tech-talent

You, J., Bohannon, J., & Stone, R.(2017). Raising the drawbridge.
Science, 355(6328), 896.10.1126/science.355.6328.896

Dixon, L. (2017). Tighter immigration policy pushes firms to open
foreign satellite offices. Talent Economy [online]. Retrieved June 26,
2017, from 
http://www.talenteconomy.io/2017/06/19/tighter-immigration-policy-pushes-firms-open-foreign-satellite-offices/

Please see also:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1e40517da152288614b980cf9087e7dd

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/23/opinions/trump-travel-ban-fuels-terrorism-clapper-geltzer-olsen/index.html

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/25/trumps-travel-ban-might-be-legal-but-its-bad-policy/

Sincerely,
Jim


On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 3:20 AM, Mario Gómez  wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 8:53 PM, James Salsman  wrote:
>
>> The is between arbitrary border security theater and allowing the
>> Foundation to recruit and hire the best candidates. If the Foundation
>> was silent on the matter, there would be less of a chance of retaining
>> the right.
>>
>
> Not really. IMHO, the choice is between 1) acknowledging that we have a
> diverse community where everyone may choose to support an organization
> (other than the WMF) that matches their political position, or 2) imposing
> a very specific political position upon the community.
>
> I consider the "best candidate" point a fallacy, since it works with the
> premise that human talent is so scarce that for every position in an
> organization there is a single or very few people in the world fit for it.
> I have seen the exact same point used so often to justify positions against
> diversity, equality or economic independence policies that I don't buy it
> anymore. There are many organizational policies that are more effective to
> increase the pool of candidates, such as being globally distributed rather
> than forcing relocation to the US, and they do not involve this kind of
> lobbying.
>
> PS.- In order to avoid thread hijacking, I will not answer here your points
> about the other thread.
>
> Best,
>
> MarioGom
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] 2 millions articles for the French Wikipedia

[John Erling Blad]

Congratulations from Norway!

*NOTICE: This message is not confidential or legally privileged in any way!
;)

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 6:14 PM Eileen Hershenov 
wrote:

> Congratulations
>
> On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 1:36 AM Thierry Coudray  wrote:
>
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > La grande nouvelle du jour / the big news today : the French Wikipedia
> > reached two millions articles a few hours ago  !
> >
> > The fr.wp community has written a press release for this milestone with
> > subpages for more explanations and get new people to edit WP.
> > and, off course, a commemorative logo community will be displayed.
> >
> > Merci à tous les contributeurs / Thanks for all the editors.
> >
> >
> > https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spécial:Statistiques
> >
> >
> >
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Deux_millions_d'articles_en_français
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thierry
> > ___
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
> --
> Eileen B. Hershenov
> General Counsel and Secretary
> Wikimedia Foundation
> 1 Montgomery Street, Suite 1600
> <
> https://maps.google.com/?q=1+Montgomery+Street,+Suite+1600+%0D+San+Francisco,+CA+94104=gmail=g
> >
> San Francisco, CA 94104
> <
> https://maps.google.com/?q=1+Montgomery+Street,+Suite+1600+%0D+San+Francisco,+CA+94104=gmail=g
> >
> (Licensed in New York; applying for California Registered In-House Counsel
> status)
> ehershe...@wikimedia.org
> (US) 415-483-6676
>
> *NOTICE: This message may be confidential or legally privileged. If you
> have received it by accident, please delete it and let us know about the
> mistake. As an attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation and for legal/ethical
> reasons, I cannot give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer for, community
> members, volunteers, or staff members in their personal capacity. For more
> on what this means, please see our legal disclaimer
> .*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] 2 millions articles for the French Wikipedia

[Eileen Hershenov]

Congratulations

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 1:36 AM Thierry Coudray  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> La grande nouvelle du jour / the big news today : the French Wikipedia
> reached two millions articles a few hours ago  !
>
> The fr.wp community has written a press release for this milestone with
> subpages for more explanations and get new people to edit WP.
> and, off course, a commemorative logo community will be displayed.
>
> Merci à tous les contributeurs / Thanks for all the editors.
>
>
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spécial:Statistiques
>
>
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Deux_millions_d'articles_en_français
>
>
> --
> Thierry
> ___
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-- 
Eileen B. Hershenov
General Counsel and Secretary
Wikimedia Foundation
1 Montgomery Street, Suite 1600

San Francisco, CA 94104

(Licensed in New York; applying for California Registered In-House Counsel
status)
ehershe...@wikimedia.org
(US) 415-483-6676

*NOTICE: This message may be confidential or legally privileged. If you
have received it by accident, please delete it and let us know about the
mistake. As an attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation and for legal/ethical
reasons, I cannot give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer for, community
members, volunteers, or staff members in their personal capacity. For more
on what this means, please see our legal disclaimer
.*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] On traceability and reliability of data we publish [was Re: [Wikidata] Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata]

[Alphos OGame]

Hello,

You seem to be mistaken.

Traceability of information does not pertain with who imported said
information on Wikidata. Could be an unregistered user, could be a bot,
could be a Wikimedian in residence or even the Pope himself, it doesn't
make a difference in the world.
What matters in traceability of a piece of data is *where* it comes from,
and that piece of metadata is achieved through referencing.
That does not belong in licencing.
CC-BY would mean reusers would have to mention individual users (including
vandals, sigh) who took part in compiling datasets on Wikidata, which you
seem to be oblivious to. CC-BY does not help track where a work comes from,
only who took part in making it. Datasets reusers don't need that kind of
information when all they want is a list of countries of which Heads of
State have spouses whose given name starts with a D [1].

When it comes to reliability, there again, who imported it is not
particularly of importance, keeping in mind that Wikidata is not the most
user-friendly wiki in the Wikimedia Ecosystem, as it is not the simplest to
grasp for human minds, and as such not the most frequently vandalized
(three huzzahs for small favors !).
What matters in reliability of a piece of data stems from the *source* of a
particular source of information, which, once again, is indicated by a
reference, and the credit you give to said source.
That again does not belong in licencing.
CC-BY would mean reusers would know that a crapton of people they have no
idea even exist took part in compiling a dataset they require (instead of
just the dataset and references pertaining to it), which again you seem to
be oblivious to. It doesn't protect reusers against vandalism, it does
however make their dataset a whole lot larger by adding the names of a
whole lot of people they don't know or care about.

It really doesn't matter how you put it, the arguments you've put forward
so far simply don't make any kind of sense against CC0 or for CC-BY.

If however you do insist on knowing which user added a particular piece of
data (or reference/metadata, for that matter) to an item, Wikidata keeps an
edit history just in case. It is not necessary for the licence currently in
effect on Wikidata (which, need I remind you, is still CC0), but it is
there nonetheless should you need it.

Now, do we need to keep this needlessly long and tedious thread alive under
another name or could we please drop it and carry on with our lives.

Roger / Alphos

[1] Maybe for a prophecy or something ? Well, if anyone need it, it's
hopelessly simple, so here goes : https://tinyurl.com/yb6dh3r6



2018-07-07 17:59 GMT+02:00 mathieu lovato stumpf guntz <
psychosl...@culture-libre.org>:

> Hi Andra,
>
> I agree this is misconception that a copyright license make any direct
> change to data reliability. But attribution requirement does somewhat
> indirectly have an impact on it, as it legally enforce traceability. That
> is I strongly disagree with the following assertion: "a license that
> requires BY sucks so hard for data [because] attribution requirements grow
> very quickly". To my mind it is equivalent to say that we will throw away
> traceability because it is subjectively judged too large a burden, without
> providing any start of evidence that it indeed can't be managed, at least
> with Wikimedia current ressources.
>
> Now, I don't say traceability is the sole factor one should take into
> account in data reliability, but certainly it is one of them. Maybe we
> should first come with clear criteria to put in a equation that enable to
> calculate reliability of information. Since it's in the core goals of the
> Wikimedia strategy, it would certainly worth the effort to establish clear
> metrics about reliability of information the movement is spreading.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Le 04/07/2018 à 13:00, Andra Waagmeester a écrit :
>
>> I agree with Maarten and to add to that. It is a huge misconception that
>> CC0  makes data unreliable. It is only a legal statement about copyright,
>> nothing more, nothing less. Statements without proper references and
>> qualifiers make data unreliable, but Wikidata has a decent mechanism to
>> capture that needed provenance.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Maarten Dammers > > wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mathieu,
>>
>> On 04-07-18 11:07, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Le 19/05/2018 à 03:35, Denny Vrandečić a écrit :
>>
>>
>> Regarding attribution, commonly it is assumed that you
>> have to respect it transitively. That is one of the
>> reasons a license that requires BY sucks so hard for data:
>> unlike with text, the attribution requirements grow very
>> quickly. It is the same as with modified images and
>> collages: it is not sufficient to attribute the last
>> author, but all contributors have to be attributed.
>>
>> If we want our 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] 2 millions articles for the French Wikipedia

[Carsten Direske]

... toutes nos félicitations! Allons enfants du contenu libre...

Carsten

-- 

Carsten Direske
Abteilung Fundraising
Projektmanager Datenbanken und Services

Wikimedia Fördergesellschaft
Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
10963 Berlin
Allemagne

www.wikimedia.de


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] 2 millions articles for the French Wikipedia

[Isaac Olatunde]

Congratulations to the French community. I hope Nigerian language
Wikipedias will achieve this milestone one day.

Greetings from Nigeria,

Regards,

Isaac

On Jul 8, 2018 8:36 AM, "Thierry Coudray"  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> La grande nouvelle du jour / the big news today : the French Wikipedia
> reached two millions articles a few hours ago  !
>
> The fr.wp community has written a press release for this milestone with
> subpages for more explanations and get new people to edit WP.
> and, off course, a commemorative logo community will be displayed.
>
> Merci à tous les contributeurs / Thanks for all the editors.
>
>
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spécial:Statistiques
>
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Deux_millions_d'
> articles_en_français
>
>
> --
> Thierry
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Response to recent developments of United States travel ban

[Mario Gómez]

On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 8:53 PM, James Salsman  wrote:

> The is between arbitrary border security theater and allowing the
> Foundation to recruit and hire the best candidates. If the Foundation
> was silent on the matter, there would be less of a chance of retaining
> the right.
>

Not really. IMHO, the choice is between 1) acknowledging that we have a
diverse community where everyone may choose to support an organization
(other than the WMF) that matches their political position, or 2) imposing
a very specific political position upon the community.

I consider the "best candidate" point a fallacy, since it works with the
premise that human talent is so scarce that for every position in an
organization there is a single or very few people in the world fit for it.
I have seen the exact same point used so often to justify positions against
diversity, equality or economic independence policies that I don't buy it
anymore. There are many organizational policies that are more effective to
increase the pool of candidates, such as being globally distributed rather
than forcing relocation to the US, and they do not involve this kind of
lobbying.

PS.- In order to avoid thread hijacking, I will not answer here your points
about the other thread.

Best,

MarioGom
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[Wikimedia-l] Recognition of the Wikipedia & Education User Group

[Kirill Lokshin]

Hi everyone!

I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has recognized
[1] the Wikipedia & Education User Group [2] as a Wikimedia User Group. The
group aims to enhance and scale local and global educational efforts,
advocate for education within the Wikimedia movement, and elevate the
narrative of education outside our movement.

Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!

Regards,
Kirill Lokshin
Chair, Affiliations Committee

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Recognition_Wikipedia_%26_Education_User_Group
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_%26_Education_User_Group
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] 2 millions articles for the French Wikipedia

[Shlomi Fish]

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:36:20 +0200
Thierry Coudray  wrote:

> Hi folks,
> 
> La grande nouvelle du jour / the big news today : the French Wikipedia
> reached two millions articles a few hours ago  !
> 
> The fr.wp community has written a press release for this milestone with
> subpages for more explanations and get new people to edit WP.
> and, off course, a commemorative logo community will be displayed.
> 
> Merci à tous les contributeurs / Thanks for all the editors.
> 

Congratulations and thanks!

> 
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spécial:Statistiques
> 
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Deux_millions_d'articles_en_français
> 
> 



-- 
-
Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
My Favourite FOSS - http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/favourite/

There are no deletionists. Only Wikipedia articles which Chuck Norris allows
to live. (By: joeyadams)
— http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

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[Wikimedia-l] 2 millions articles for the French Wikipedia

[Thierry Coudray]

Hi folks,

La grande nouvelle du jour / the big news today : the French Wikipedia
reached two millions articles a few hours ago  !

The fr.wp community has written a press release for this milestone with
subpages for more explanations and get new people to edit WP.
and, off course, a commemorative logo community will be displayed.

Merci à tous les contributeurs / Thanks for all the editors.


https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spécial:Statistiques

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia:Deux_millions_d'articles_en_français


-- 
Thierry
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