Re: [Wikimedia-l] New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers
Mike - thank you - and to Nemo as well for a more concise answer than mine. :) I agree about the cross-posting - and my hunch is that will come with time. Like any new outreach idea, it will need some time to mature, and it may not work out - but I think this one is worth trying. If it doesn't work (although I personally expect it will) - we'll try something else. :) Thanks! -greg On 1 Jul, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Michael Peel wrote: > Hey Greg, > > Great answer - thanks. :-) It does sound like that's quite a distinct > audience here that most likely wouldn't be interested in the other emails > that are sent to WikimediaAnnounce-l (e.g. chapter and WMF reports). I hope > that there will be appropriate cross-posting to both lists for announcements > that are/may be of interest to both audiences. > > Thanks, > Mike > > On 1 Jul 2012, at 22:49, Gregory Varnum wrote: > >> Hey Mike, >> >> I'm not sure I have a very satisfying answer beyond - I think we did not >> want to "spam" a low-traffic list largely made up of non-developers with >> developer related updates. >> >> My sense is this list's target audience is a rather niche group of >> volunteers. However, their size is often disproportionate to the value they >> can contribute as developers. Many are paid to maintain MediaWiki >> installations and as such, already develop tools beneficial to the rest of >> us. However, given their motives, they are often less engaged than our core >> developers. This has often led to corporate and other powerful wikis >> running MediaWiki having custom extensions, themes, etc. that could benefit >> others. In talking with those folks, the sense I got was they did not want >> the usual volunteer info, and did not want discussions. They simply wanted >> to know the best ways to keep their tools alive in our developer community >> without getting fully embraced in our developer community. This seemed like >> a reasonable middle ground. That doesn't speak to every type of person that >> may find this list helpful - but in general I think a very small fraction of >> current members of wikimediaannounce-l would find this interesting and I >> think very little of that list's traffic would be interesting to the folks >> on this new list. lol - that make sense? >> >> All of that said, I would not be shocked if a better solution emerged in the >> future or if that list's group one-day wanted to become more integrated into >> general Wikimedia culture, vs the very niche private developer community. >> >> -greg >> >> PS. I'm scrambling to get ready for a family vacation - so apologies if >> this is not well written. :) >> >> >> On 1 Jul, 2012, at 5:39 PM, Michael Peel >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Gregory, >>> >>> Could I ask a related common question - why not just send these out on >>> WikimediaAnnounce-l? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Mike >>> >>> On 30 Jun 2012, at 06:49, Gregory Varnum wrote: >>> Cross-posting. -greg Begin forwarded message: > From: Gregory Varnum > Subject: New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia > developers > Date: 30 June, 2012 1:23:11 AM EDT > To: wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org > > Greetings, > > Following discussions with Wikimedia developers more on the "fringe" and > not as engaged in frequent IRC or mailing list conversations, the request > for an announcements only mailing list came up. I wanted to let folks > know that this list has been created and is ready for membership: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-announce - > wikitech-annou...@lists.wikimedia.org There will also be a signup list > for this and other lists at Wikimania Hackathon. > > Unlike this list, which allows for discussion, or the MediaWiki-announce > list, which focuses exclusively on MediaWiki release announcements, > wikitech-announce will be used for occasional announcements on both > MediaWiki and broader Wikimedia developer related news items. This > includes an announcement when monthly tech or engineering reports are > posted, important news updates on git or developer related tools, and > information on upcoming sprints, events or other major developer > collaborations. > > Having presented this idea a few times, there are some common questions I > will get out of the way now. > > Why not just send these out on MediaWiki-announce? There was quick > reaction from several of these less-engaged developers that some really > did want JUST MediaWiki release info sent out on that list. In other > words, the audience of that list did not like the idea. > > Will this duplicate emails sent to wikitech-l? Probably, but it is not > designed for folks already utilizing wikitech-l - it is designed for > folks who would like less email traffic an
Re: [Wikimedia-l] New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers
Hey Greg, Great answer - thanks. :-) It does sound like that's quite a distinct audience here that most likely wouldn't be interested in the other emails that are sent to WikimediaAnnounce-l (e.g. chapter and WMF reports). I hope that there will be appropriate cross-posting to both lists for announcements that are/may be of interest to both audiences. Thanks, Mike On 1 Jul 2012, at 22:49, Gregory Varnum wrote: > Hey Mike, > > I'm not sure I have a very satisfying answer beyond - I think we did not want > to "spam" a low-traffic list largely made up of non-developers with developer > related updates. > > My sense is this list's target audience is a rather niche group of > volunteers. However, their size is often disproportionate to the value they > can contribute as developers. Many are paid to maintain MediaWiki > installations and as such, already develop tools beneficial to the rest of > us. However, given their motives, they are often less engaged than our core > developers. This has often led to corporate and other powerful wikis running > MediaWiki having custom extensions, themes, etc. that could benefit others. > In talking with those folks, the sense I got was they did not want the usual > volunteer info, and did not want discussions. They simply wanted to know the > best ways to keep their tools alive in our developer community without > getting fully embraced in our developer community. This seemed like a > reasonable middle ground. That doesn't speak to every type of person that > may find this list helpful - but in general I think a very small fraction of > current members of wikimediaannounce-l would find this interesting and I > think very little of that list's traffic would be interesting to the folks on > this new list. lol - that make sense? > > All of that said, I would not be shocked if a better solution emerged in the > future or if that list's group one-day wanted to become more integrated into > general Wikimedia culture, vs the very niche private developer community. > > -greg > > PS. I'm scrambling to get ready for a family vacation - so apologies if this > is not well written. :) > > > On 1 Jul, 2012, at 5:39 PM, Michael Peel > wrote: > >> Hi Gregory, >> >> Could I ask a related common question - why not just send these out on >> WikimediaAnnounce-l? >> >> Thanks, >> Mike >> >> On 30 Jun 2012, at 06:49, Gregory Varnum wrote: >> >>> Cross-posting. >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> From: Gregory Varnum Subject: New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers Date: 30 June, 2012 1:23:11 AM EDT To: wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org Greetings, Following discussions with Wikimedia developers more on the "fringe" and not as engaged in frequent IRC or mailing list conversations, the request for an announcements only mailing list came up. I wanted to let folks know that this list has been created and is ready for membership: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-announce - wikitech-annou...@lists.wikimedia.org There will also be a signup list for this and other lists at Wikimania Hackathon. Unlike this list, which allows for discussion, or the MediaWiki-announce list, which focuses exclusively on MediaWiki release announcements, wikitech-announce will be used for occasional announcements on both MediaWiki and broader Wikimedia developer related news items. This includes an announcement when monthly tech or engineering reports are posted, important news updates on git or developer related tools, and information on upcoming sprints, events or other major developer collaborations. Having presented this idea a few times, there are some common questions I will get out of the way now. Why not just send these out on MediaWiki-announce? There was quick reaction from several of these less-engaged developers that some really did want JUST MediaWiki release info sent out on that list. In other words, the audience of that list did not like the idea. Will this duplicate emails sent to wikitech-l? Probably, but it is not designed for folks already utilizing wikitech-l - it is designed for folks who would like less email traffic and want announcements - not conversations. Is this really going to save folks that many emails? In June, the wikitech-l list had 639 individual messages (so far). It is unlikely that this list would exceed 12 a month. For reference, MediaWiki-announce has sent out 3 messages this month and mediawiki-l had 121 messages. This list presents a middle ground between the two extremes. Do we not already have enough lists? Yes, but as our developer community grows, so too must our means of communicatin
Re: [Wikimedia-l] New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers
Michael Peel, 01/07/2012 23:39: Could I ask a related common question - why not just send these out on WikimediaAnnounce-l? The list is meant to be low traffic compared to wikitech-l, which is currently (by far) the highest traffic list we have; so, still quite high traffic. Moreover, it's mostly for a technical audience. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers
Hey Mike, I'm not sure I have a very satisfying answer beyond - I think we did not want to "spam" a low-traffic list largely made up of non-developers with developer related updates. My sense is this list's target audience is a rather niche group of volunteers. However, their size is often disproportionate to the value they can contribute as developers. Many are paid to maintain MediaWiki installations and as such, already develop tools beneficial to the rest of us. However, given their motives, they are often less engaged than our core developers. This has often led to corporate and other powerful wikis running MediaWiki having custom extensions, themes, etc. that could benefit others. In talking with those folks, the sense I got was they did not want the usual volunteer info, and did not want discussions. They simply wanted to know the best ways to keep their tools alive in our developer community without getting fully embraced in our developer community. This seemed like a reasonable middle ground. That doesn't speak to every type of person that may find this list helpful - but in general I think a very small fraction of current members of wikimediaannounce-l would find this interesting and I think very little of that list's traffic would be interesting to the folks on this new list. lol - that make sense? All of that said, I would not be shocked if a better solution emerged in the future or if that list's group one-day wanted to become more integrated into general Wikimedia culture, vs the very niche private developer community. -greg PS. I'm scrambling to get ready for a family vacation - so apologies if this is not well written. :) On 1 Jul, 2012, at 5:39 PM, Michael Peel wrote: > Hi Gregory, > > Could I ask a related common question - why not just send these out on > WikimediaAnnounce-l? > > Thanks, > Mike > > On 30 Jun 2012, at 06:49, Gregory Varnum wrote: > >> Cross-posting. >> >> -greg >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: Gregory Varnum >>> Subject: New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia >>> developers >>> Date: 30 June, 2012 1:23:11 AM EDT >>> To: wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org >>> >>> Greetings, >>> >>> Following discussions with Wikimedia developers more on the "fringe" and >>> not as engaged in frequent IRC or mailing list conversations, the request >>> for an announcements only mailing list came up. I wanted to let folks know >>> that this list has been created and is ready for membership: >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-announce - >>> wikitech-annou...@lists.wikimedia.org There will also be a signup list for >>> this and other lists at Wikimania Hackathon. >>> >>> Unlike this list, which allows for discussion, or the MediaWiki-announce >>> list, which focuses exclusively on MediaWiki release announcements, >>> wikitech-announce will be used for occasional announcements on both >>> MediaWiki and broader Wikimedia developer related news items. This >>> includes an announcement when monthly tech or engineering reports are >>> posted, important news updates on git or developer related tools, and >>> information on upcoming sprints, events or other major developer >>> collaborations. >>> >>> Having presented this idea a few times, there are some common questions I >>> will get out of the way now. >>> >>> Why not just send these out on MediaWiki-announce? There was quick >>> reaction from several of these less-engaged developers that some really did >>> want JUST MediaWiki release info sent out on that list. In other words, >>> the audience of that list did not like the idea. >>> >>> Will this duplicate emails sent to wikitech-l? Probably, but it is not >>> designed for folks already utilizing wikitech-l - it is designed for folks >>> who would like less email traffic and want announcements - not >>> conversations. >>> >>> Is this really going to save folks that many emails? In June, the >>> wikitech-l list had 639 individual messages (so far). It is unlikely that >>> this list would exceed 12 a month. For reference, MediaWiki-announce has >>> sent out 3 messages this month and mediawiki-l had 121 messages. This list >>> presents a middle ground between the two extremes. >>> >>> Do we not already have enough lists? Yes, but as our developer community >>> grows, so too must our means of communicating. Many individuals, myself >>> included, have been intentionally trying to engage developers generally >>> less present, but just as important to our community. Such as corporate >>> developers with an interest in sharing extensions who can benefit from >>> announcements about git. Similarly, some students would prefer to get >>> basic info that helps them stay on top of the latest developments. >>> >>> Generally, if you find yourself having a concern about this list, it is >>> probably not the list for you to join. However, if you find you
Re: [Wikimedia-l] New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers
Hi Gregory, Could I ask a related common question - why not just send these out on WikimediaAnnounce-l? Thanks, Mike On 30 Jun 2012, at 06:49, Gregory Varnum wrote: > Cross-posting. > > -greg > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Gregory Varnum >> Subject: New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia >> developers >> Date: 30 June, 2012 1:23:11 AM EDT >> To: wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org >> >> Greetings, >> >> Following discussions with Wikimedia developers more on the "fringe" and not >> as engaged in frequent IRC or mailing list conversations, the request for an >> announcements only mailing list came up. I wanted to let folks know that >> this list has been created and is ready for membership: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-announce - >> wikitech-annou...@lists.wikimedia.org There will also be a signup list for >> this and other lists at Wikimania Hackathon. >> >> Unlike this list, which allows for discussion, or the MediaWiki-announce >> list, which focuses exclusively on MediaWiki release announcements, >> wikitech-announce will be used for occasional announcements on both >> MediaWiki and broader Wikimedia developer related news items. This includes >> an announcement when monthly tech or engineering reports are posted, >> important news updates on git or developer related tools, and information on >> upcoming sprints, events or other major developer collaborations. >> >> Having presented this idea a few times, there are some common questions I >> will get out of the way now. >> >> Why not just send these out on MediaWiki-announce? There was quick reaction >> from several of these less-engaged developers that some really did want JUST >> MediaWiki release info sent out on that list. In other words, the audience >> of that list did not like the idea. >> >> Will this duplicate emails sent to wikitech-l? Probably, but it is not >> designed for folks already utilizing wikitech-l - it is designed for folks >> who would like less email traffic and want announcements - not conversations. >> >> Is this really going to save folks that many emails? In June, the >> wikitech-l list had 639 individual messages (so far). It is unlikely that >> this list would exceed 12 a month. For reference, MediaWiki-announce has >> sent out 3 messages this month and mediawiki-l had 121 messages. This list >> presents a middle ground between the two extremes. >> >> Do we not already have enough lists? Yes, but as our developer community >> grows, so too must our means of communicating. Many individuals, myself >> included, have been intentionally trying to engage developers generally less >> present, but just as important to our community. Such as corporate >> developers with an interest in sharing extensions who can benefit from >> announcements about git. Similarly, some students would prefer to get basic >> info that helps them stay on top of the latest developments. >> >> Generally, if you find yourself having a concern about this list, it is >> probably not the list for you to join. However, if you find yourself >> excited at the idea of less development chatter while remaining informed, >> this might just be the list for you. >> >> Thank you to Sumana and TheHelpfulOne for supporting this effort and to >> Daniel Renfro for proposing this idea and getting the discussion started. >> >> I have volunteered to moderate the list at its start, but will be interested >> in recruiting others that are willing to help. Anyone with an announcement >> can submit one, and a moderator will approve messages which fit within the >> list's scope. >> >> Finally, like any new tool, I anticipate its usage will evolve over time - >> so please do engage in discussion on any ideas you may have for its future. >> >> Thank you! >> -greg aka varnent > > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers
Cross-posting. -greg Begin forwarded message: > From: Gregory Varnum > Subject: New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia > developers > Date: 30 June, 2012 1:23:11 AM EDT > To: wikitec...@lists.wikimedia.org > > Greetings, > > Following discussions with Wikimedia developers more on the "fringe" and not > as engaged in frequent IRC or mailing list conversations, the request for an > announcements only mailing list came up. I wanted to let folks know that > this list has been created and is ready for membership: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-announce - > wikitech-annou...@lists.wikimedia.org There will also be a signup list for > this and other lists at Wikimania Hackathon. > > Unlike this list, which allows for discussion, or the MediaWiki-announce > list, which focuses exclusively on MediaWiki release announcements, > wikitech-announce will be used for occasional announcements on both MediaWiki > and broader Wikimedia developer related news items. This includes an > announcement when monthly tech or engineering reports are posted, important > news updates on git or developer related tools, and information on upcoming > sprints, events or other major developer collaborations. > > Having presented this idea a few times, there are some common questions I > will get out of the way now. > > Why not just send these out on MediaWiki-announce? There was quick reaction > from several of these less-engaged developers that some really did want JUST > MediaWiki release info sent out on that list. In other words, the audience > of that list did not like the idea. > > Will this duplicate emails sent to wikitech-l? Probably, but it is not > designed for folks already utilizing wikitech-l - it is designed for folks > who would like less email traffic and want announcements - not conversations. > > Is this really going to save folks that many emails? In June, the wikitech-l > list had 639 individual messages (so far). It is unlikely that this list > would exceed 12 a month. For reference, MediaWiki-announce has sent out 3 > messages this month and mediawiki-l had 121 messages. This list presents a > middle ground between the two extremes. > > Do we not already have enough lists? Yes, but as our developer community > grows, so too must our means of communicating. Many individuals, myself > included, have been intentionally trying to engage developers generally less > present, but just as important to our community. Such as corporate > developers with an interest in sharing extensions who can benefit from > announcements about git. Similarly, some students would prefer to get basic > info that helps them stay on top of the latest developments. > > Generally, if you find yourself having a concern about this list, it is > probably not the list for you to join. However, if you find yourself excited > at the idea of less development chatter while remaining informed, this might > just be the list for you. > > Thank you to Sumana and TheHelpfulOne for supporting this effort and to > Daniel Renfro for proposing this idea and getting the discussion started. > > I have volunteered to moderate the list at its start, but will be interested > in recruiting others that are willing to help. Anyone with an announcement > can submit one, and a moderator will approve messages which fit within the > list's scope. > > Finally, like any new tool, I anticipate its usage will evolve over time - so > please do engage in discussion on any ideas you may have for its future. > > Thank you! > -greg aka varnent ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
