Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
Martin Rulsch wrote: In German Nov 2, 24:00 equals Nov 3, 0:00. For further information have a look at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noon_and_midnight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-hour_clock#Midnight_00:00_and_24:00 Thanks for this. DaB. announced his retirement from the Toolserver at FRIDAY, 3. January 2014 24:00 MEZ. and I had no idea (precisely when) that meant. Of course, what it really means is that I need to dump my Toolserver home directory by the end of 2013. :-/ MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
According to the road map, the Toolserver will not be shut down before June 30, 2014. Cheers Martin 2013/11/16 MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com Martin Rulsch wrote: In German Nov 2, 24:00 equals Nov 3, 0:00. For further information have a look at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noon_and_midnight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-hour_clock#Midnight_00:00_and_24:00 Thanks for this. DaB. announced his retirement from the Toolserver at FRIDAY, 3. January 2014 24:00 MEZ. and I had no idea (precisely when) that meant. Of course, what it really means is that I need to dump my Toolserver home directory by the end of 2013. :-/ MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. Obentrautstr. 72 10963 Berlin Telefon 030 - 219 158 26-0 www.wikimedia.de Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei! http://spenden.wikimedia.de/ Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On Oct 31, 2013 2:11 AM, Steve Zhang cro0...@gmail.com wrote: I have to say, I'm amazed such a long discussion has occured over a question about the time for an office hours sessions. I'm amazed nobody has brought up leap seconds yet, which make 23:59:59 roll over to 23:59:60 and would steal not one but two whole seconds in Tims example. *Steven Zhang* *cro0...@gmail.com* On 31 October 2013 09:42, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 31/10/13 02:51, Newyorkbrad wrote: In an arbitration committee election a couple of years ago, I definitely recall confusion about whether a deadline of on a given date meant that the deadline expired as of the beginning of that date or the end of that date. Voting periods in SecurePoll are actually half-open intervals [S, E), i.e. starting at exactly time S, proceeding up to but not including time E. So E = 2013-11-03 00:00:00 is actually the correct way to express a voting interval that includes the whole of 2013-11-02 and nothing after that. However, I have been browbeaten into using 23:59:59 in more recent elections, thus stealing a whole second of potential voting time from our poor voters. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
Hi. :) I wanted to let you know that James Forrester is holding a second set of office hours to discuss VisualEditor. These are scheduled for 1700 UTC on 2 November and UTC on 3 November. For local time conversions, see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Office_hours and click on the starting time As always, logs will be posted on Meta (same page) after each hour completes. Thanks! Maggie -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
Hi Maggie - Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us...is that the minute after 2359 UTC on November 2 (i.e., 7 hours after the first session), or is it the minute after 2359 UTC on November 3? I've seen it used both ways so I just want to be clear. Risker On 30 October 2013 10:45, Maggie Dennis mden...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi. :) I wanted to let you know that James Forrester is holding a second set of office hours to discuss VisualEditor. These are scheduled for 1700 UTC on 2 November and UTC on 3 November. For local time conversions, see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Office_hours and click on the starting time As always, logs will be posted on Meta (same page) after each hour completes. Thanks! Maggie -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On 10/30/2013 11:20 AM, Risker wrote:
Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us
{{cn}}
I've heard that said very often (that 00:00 is somehow confusing to many
people), but I've yet to actually see someone being actually confused by it.
There is exactly one minute labeled 00:00 in every day, and that is
unambiguously the first of the day. It makes as much sense to be
hesitant about it as it does wondering whether Jan 1 is part of the
previous year or not*.
-- Marc
* Hint: It's not.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.orgwrote:
On 10/30/2013 11:20 AM, Risker wrote:
Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us
{{cn}}
I've heard that said very often (that 00:00 is somehow confusing to many
people), but I've yet to actually see someone being actually confused by
it.
There is exactly one minute labeled 00:00 in every day, and that is
unambiguously the first of the day. It makes as much sense to be
hesitant about it as it does wondering whether Jan 1 is part of the
previous year or not*.
-- Marc
* Hint: It's not.
Just a shot in the dark, but maybe Risker asked because she's confused. So,
now you have at last seen someone confused by it! Congrats, and may all
your future demands for citations supporting the personal reactions of
other people be met so easily ;)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
It's simple enough to use 0001 instead of .
Newyorkbrad
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org
wrote:
On 10/30/2013 11:20 AM, Risker wrote:
Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us
{{cn}}
I've heard that said very often (that 00:00 is somehow confusing to many
people), but I've yet to actually see someone being actually confused by
it.
There is exactly one minute labeled 00:00 in every day, and that is
unambiguously the first of the day. It makes as much sense to be
hesitant about it as it does wondering whether Jan 1 is part of the
previous year or not*.
-- Marc
* Hint: It's not.
Just a shot in the dark, but maybe Risker asked because she's confused. So,
now you have at last seen someone confused by it! Congrats, and may all
your future demands for citations supporting the personal reactions of
other people be met so easily ;)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On 10/30/2013 11:45 AM, Newyorkbrad wrote: It's simple enough to use 0001 instead of . It is, but if there /are/ in fact a large number of people being confused by it, then treating 00:00 as though it had special status by avoiding it will only *add* to that confusion rather than clarify the matter. -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
In an arbitration committee election a couple of years ago, I definitely recall confusion about whether a deadline of on a given date meant that the deadline expired as of the beginning of that date or the end of that date. Time designations are human conventions, not laws of nature, and should be as clearly expressed as possible. Anyone who disagrees with me is free to state his or her opinion until today. Newyorkbrad On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.orgwrote: On 10/30/2013 11:45 AM, Newyorkbrad wrote: It's simple enough to use 0001 instead of . It is, but if there /are/ in fact a large number of people being confused by it, then treating 00:00 as though it had special status by avoiding it will only *add* to that confusion rather than clarify the matter. -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
In German Nov 2, 24:00 equals Nov 3, 0:00. For further information have a
look at Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock#Confusion_at_noon_and_midnight
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-hour_clock#Midnight_00:00_and_24:00
Cheers
Martin
2013/10/30 Newyorkbrad newyorkb...@gmail.com
It's simple enough to use 0001 instead of .
Newyorkbrad
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org
wrote:
On 10/30/2013 11:20 AM, Risker wrote:
Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us
{{cn}}
I've heard that said very often (that 00:00 is somehow confusing to
many
people), but I've yet to actually see someone being actually confused
by
it.
There is exactly one minute labeled 00:00 in every day, and that is
unambiguously the first of the day. It makes as much sense to be
hesitant about it as it does wondering whether Jan 1 is part of the
previous year or not*.
-- Marc
* Hint: It's not.
Just a shot in the dark, but maybe Risker asked because she's confused.
So,
now you have at last seen someone confused by it! Congrats, and may all
your future demands for citations supporting the personal reactions of
other people be met so easily ;)
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10963 Berlin
Telefon 030 - 219 158 26-0
www.wikimedia.de
Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen
Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
http://spenden.wikimedia.de/
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Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt
für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On 10/30/2013 8:39 AM, Marc A. Pelletier wrote:
On 10/30/2013 11:20 AM, Risker wrote:
Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us
{{cn}}
I've heard that said very often (that 00:00 is somehow confusing to many
people), but I've yet to actually see someone being actually confused by it.
There is exactly one minute labeled 00:00 in every day, and that is
unambiguously the first of the day.
It ought to be straightforward, yes, since in numeric sequences 00:00
clearly comes before other possible time values, and therefore is not
nearly as confusing as, say, 12:00 (is noon AM and midnight PM, or is it
the other way around?). However, it is definitely possible to overthink
things, and as this conversation demonstrates, of all the faults of
which our community is capable, overthinking things is one of the
easiest for us to fall into.
--Michael Snow
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
Are you saying that our extensive discussion of the meaning of counts
for naught?
Newyorkbrad
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.comwrote:
On 10/30/2013 8:39 AM, Marc A. Pelletier wrote:
On 10/30/2013 11:20 AM, Risker wrote:
Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us
{{cn}}
I've heard that said very often (that 00:00 is somehow confusing to many
people), but I've yet to actually see someone being actually confused by
it.
There is exactly one minute labeled 00:00 in every day, and that is
unambiguously the first of the day.
It ought to be straightforward, yes, since in numeric sequences 00:00
clearly comes before other possible time values, and therefore is not
nearly as confusing as, say, 12:00 (is noon AM and midnight PM, or is it
the other way around?). However, it is definitely possible to overthink
things, and as this conversation demonstrates, of all the faults of which
our community is capable, overthinking things is one of the easiest for us
to fall into.
--Michael Snow
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On 30 October 2013 11:47, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: On 10/30/2013 11:45 AM, Newyorkbrad wrote: It's simple enough to use 0001 instead of . It is, but if there /are/ in fact a large number of people being confused by it, then treating 00:00 as though it had special status by avoiding it will only *add* to that confusion rather than clarify the matter. Well, I personally know 4 people who told me that they'd missed the last session scheduled for because they thought of it being more than 24 hours after the first session. So I'm not the only one. I work in an area where exact times are very important, and we don't ever use hours; we use 2359 or 23:59:59 or 00:01 or 00:00:01. Risker ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
It confuses me, too, Risker. :) I'm terrified of time conversions, so I rely on the link they give us on the office hours page itself. :D It is 7 hours after the first session. The first time I listed a session at that time, I tried for 2400, but they couldn't process that one. I myself would prefer to just declare that hour off limits, but alas. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?hour=00min=00sec=0day=3month=11year=2013 should cover most localities. Maggie On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Maggie - Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us...is that the minute after 2359 UTC on November 2 (i.e., 7 hours after the first session), or is it the minute after 2359 UTC on November 3? I've seen it used both ways so I just want to be clear. Risker On 30 October 2013 10:45, Maggie Dennis mden...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi. :) I wanted to let you know that James Forrester is holding a second set of office hours to discuss VisualEditor. These are scheduled for 1700 UTC on 2 November and UTC on 3 November. For local time conversions, see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Office_hours and click on the starting time As always, logs will be posted on Meta (same page) after each hour completes. Thanks! Maggie -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Maggie Dennis Senior Community Advocate Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
You know, I didn't believe them when they said Wikimedians could fight
about *anything*...and then I read this thread.
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Newyorkbrad newyorkb...@gmail.com wrote:
Are you saying that our extensive discussion of the meaning of counts
for naught?
Newyorkbrad
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com
wrote:
On 10/30/2013 8:39 AM, Marc A. Pelletier wrote:
On 10/30/2013 11:20 AM, Risker wrote:
Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us
{{cn}}
I've heard that said very often (that 00:00 is somehow confusing to many
people), but I've yet to actually see someone being actually confused by
it.
There is exactly one minute labeled 00:00 in every day, and that is
unambiguously the first of the day.
It ought to be straightforward, yes, since in numeric sequences 00:00
clearly comes before other possible time values, and therefore is not
nearly as confusing as, say, 12:00 (is noon AM and midnight PM, or is it
the other way around?). However, it is definitely possible to overthink
things, and as this conversation demonstrates, of all the faults of which
our community is capable, overthinking things is one of the easiest for
us
to fall into.
--Michael Snow
__**_
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On 10/30/2013 11:51 AM, Newyorkbrad wrote: Time designations are human conventions, not laws of nature, and should be as clearly expressed as possible. Anyone who disagrees with me is free to state his or her opinion until today. That deadline has come and gone, as you well know. :-) Yes, time designation are human conventions, but there is no more ambiguity about where lies there than there is about where 7 lies amongst the integers. If there are people who are confused and think that it comes after 11, they are simply in error and saying starting at 8 when you mean starting immediately after 6 to placate them doesn't help anyone. -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
Good one, Brad. :)
Katherine, I think you meant about *nothing*. ;)
Maggie
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Katherine Casey
fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com wrote:
You know, I didn't believe them when they said Wikimedians could fight
about *anything*...and then I read this thread.
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Newyorkbrad newyorkb...@gmail.com
wrote:
Are you saying that our extensive discussion of the meaning of
counts
for naught?
Newyorkbrad
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com
wrote:
On 10/30/2013 8:39 AM, Marc A. Pelletier wrote:
On 10/30/2013 11:20 AM, Risker wrote:
Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us
{{cn}}
I've heard that said very often (that 00:00 is somehow confusing to
many
people), but I've yet to actually see someone being actually confused
by
it.
There is exactly one minute labeled 00:00 in every day, and that is
unambiguously the first of the day.
It ought to be straightforward, yes, since in numeric sequences 00:00
clearly comes before other possible time values, and therefore is not
nearly as confusing as, say, 12:00 (is noon AM and midnight PM, or is
it
the other way around?). However, it is definitely possible to overthink
things, and as this conversation demonstrates, of all the faults of
which
our community is capable, overthinking things is one of the easiest for
us
to fall into.
--Michael Snow
__**_
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On 10/30/2013 8:58 AM, Newyorkbrad wrote:
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.comwrote:
On 10/30/2013 8:39 AM, Marc A. Pelletier wrote:
On 10/30/2013 11:20 AM, Risker wrote:
Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us
{{cn}}
I've heard that said very often (that 00:00 is somehow confusing to many
people), but I've yet to actually see someone being actually confused by
it.
There is exactly one minute labeled 00:00 in every day, and that is
unambiguously the first of the day.
It ought to be straightforward, yes, since in numeric sequences 00:00
clearly comes before other possible time values, and therefore is not
nearly as confusing as, say, 12:00 (is noon AM and midnight PM, or is it
the other way around?). However, it is definitely possible to overthink
things, and as this conversation demonstrates, of all the faults of which
our community is capable, overthinking things is one of the easiest for us
to fall into.
--Michael Snow
Are you saying that our extensive discussion of the meaning of counts
for naught?
Newyorkbrad
I am saying nothing of the kind.
--Michael Snow
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: Yes, time designation are human conventions, but there is no more ambiguity about where lies there than there is about where 7 lies amongst the integers. If there are people who are confused and think that it comes after 11, they are simply in error and saying starting at 8 when you mean starting immediately after 6 to placate them doesn't help anyone. I guess we can keep discussing on semantics forever, or deciding that whatever we were talking about would start at 00:01 UTC NMarco ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On 30 October 2013 12:14, Marco Chiesa chiesa.ma...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: Yes, time designation are human conventions, but there is no more ambiguity about where lies there than there is about where 7 lies amongst the integers. If there are people who are confused and think that it comes after 11, they are simply in error and saying starting at 8 when you mean starting immediately after 6 to placate them doesn't help anyone. I guess we can keep discussing on semantics forever, or deciding that whatever we were talking about would start at 00:01 UTC NMarco ___ Thank you, NMarco - that's exactly what I needed to know. Risker ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
* Risker wrote: Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us...is that the minute after 2359 UTC on November 2 (i.e., 7 hours after the first session), or is it the minute after 2359 UTC on November 3? I've seen it used both ways so I just want to be clear. Could you elaborate on this confusion and where you think it is common? The 24 hour clock divides a day into 24 hours from 0 to 23 starting at midnight. 23:59 is 23 hours and 59 minutes after 00:00 on the same day. 2013-11-03T00:00Z --+ 2013-11-03T00:01Z | ... | 2013-11-03T00:59Z |-- November 3rd 2013-11-03T01:00Z | ... | 2013-11-03T23:59Z --+ 2013-11-04T00:00Z ... The minute after 2013-11-03T23:59Z is on November 4th. I do understand that when setting a deadline you are better off giving the end of a day as deadline so the time is up when the day is over, otherwise people see a contradiction and get confused, but beyond that I've not encountered this particular confusion. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjo...@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On 30/10/13 16:32, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: * Risker wrote: Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us...is that the minute after 2359 UTC on November 2 (i.e., 7 hours after the first session), or is it the minute after 2359 UTC on November 3? I've seen it used both ways so I just want to be clear. Could you elaborate on this confusion and where you think it is common? The 24 hour clock divides a day into 24 hours from 0 to 23 starting at midnight. 23:59 is 23 hours and 59 minutes after 00:00 on the same day. 2013-11-03T00:00Z --+ 2013-11-03T00:01Z | ... | 2013-11-03T00:59Z |-- November 3rd 2013-11-03T01:00Z | ... | 2013-11-03T23:59Z --+ 2013-11-04T00:00Z ... The minute after 2013-11-03T23:59Z is on November 4th. I do understand that when setting a deadline you are better off giving the end of a day as deadline so the time is up when the day is over, otherwise people see a contradiction and get confused, but beyond that I've not encountered this particular confusion. It's probably more common in places where people use 12-hour time for more things. Because many 12-hour conventions make absolutely no sense, folks can learn to expect time standards to make no sense and then don't know whether or not to expect 24-hour time to make sense because the precedent they're used to says it may not either. So while 24-hour time does follow fairly logical conventions, if we're less used to using it we won't necessarily know to expect that, which might explain some of the confusion. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
Has someone already started a book about wikidramas? One chapter called 00:00 would be a good one. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Isarra Yos zhoris...@gmail.com wrote: On 30/10/13 16:32, Bjoern Hoehrmann wrote: * Risker wrote: Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us...is that the minute after 2359 UTC on November 2 (i.e., 7 hours after the first session), or is it the minute after 2359 UTC on November 3? I've seen it used both ways so I just want to be clear. Could you elaborate on this confusion and where you think it is common? The 24 hour clock divides a day into 24 hours from 0 to 23 starting at midnight. 23:59 is 23 hours and 59 minutes after 00:00 on the same day. 2013-11-03T00:00Z --+ 2013-11-03T00:01Z | ... | 2013-11-03T00:59Z |-- November 3rd 2013-11-03T01:00Z | ... | 2013-11-03T23:59Z --+ 2013-11-04T00:00Z ... The minute after 2013-11-03T23:59Z is on November 4th. I do understand that when setting a deadline you are better off giving the end of a day as deadline so the time is up when the day is over, otherwise people see a contradiction and get confused, but beyond that I've not encountered this particular confusion. It's probably more common in places where people use 12-hour time for more things. Because many 12-hour conventions make absolutely no sense, folks can learn to expect time standards to make no sense and then don't know whether or not to expect 24-hour time to make sense because the precedent they're used to says it may not either. So while 24-hour time does follow fairly logical conventions, if we're less used to using it we won't necessarily know to expect that, which might explain some of the confusion. I think you're probably onto something there, Isarra. :) (I hate the 12 a.m./p.m. confusion.) The Combined Communications Electronics Board at least at one point recommended avoiding because of its potential to confuse - see http://jcs.dtic.mil/j6/cceb/acps/acp121/ACP121I.pdf, section 327 (page 25 of the pdf). (Thank you, Wikipedia. :D) Maggie ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On 30 October 2013 12:32, Bjoern Hoehrmann derhoe...@gmx.net wrote: * Risker wrote: Just to clarify, since UTC is a confusing time for most of us...is that the minute after 2359 UTC on November 2 (i.e., 7 hours after the first session), or is it the minute after 2359 UTC on November 3? I've seen it used both ways so I just want to be clear. Could you elaborate on this confusion and where you think it is common? The 24 hour clock divides a day into 24 hours from 0 to 23 starting at midnight. 23:59 is 23 hours and 59 minutes after 00:00 on the same day. 2013-11-03T00:00Z --+ 2013-11-03T00:01Z | ... | 2013-11-03T00:59Z |-- November 3rd 2013-11-03T01:00Z | ... | 2013-11-03T23:59Z --+ 2013-11-04T00:00Z ... The minute after 2013-11-03T23:59Z is on November 4th. I do understand that when setting a deadline you are better off giving the end of a day as deadline so the time is up when the day is over, otherwise people see a contradiction and get confused, but beyond that I've not encountered this particular confusion. -- Bjoern, it might just be that I am old and remember the ancient days when the 24-hour clock was first coming into use outside of the military; it was common back then to see a time like 00:01 written as 24:01. The fact that we have a date change creates the mental expectation that there will be a day's end before the next meeting, but for people in North America, this is early afternoon vs late afternoon/early evening. But yeahI just asked a simple question, and I've got a nice answer. I've also got a fair amount of slogging. Let's end this thread now, okay? Risker ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
As far as I know, just in German and about German topics: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:10_Jahre_Wikipedia/Wikipedia-Buch https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alles_%C3%BCber_Wikipedia_und_die_Menschen_hinter_der_gr%C3%B6%C3%9Ften_Enzyklop%C3%A4die_der_Welt; for an English abstract see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Das_Wikipedia-Buch Cheers Martin 2013/10/30 Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.org Has someone already started a book about wikidramas? One chapter called 00:00 would be a good one. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. Obentrautstr. 72 10963 Berlin Telefon 030 - 219 158 26-0 www.wikimedia.de Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei! http://spenden.wikimedia.de/ Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
On 31/10/13 02:51, Newyorkbrad wrote: In an arbitration committee election a couple of years ago, I definitely recall confusion about whether a deadline of on a given date meant that the deadline expired as of the beginning of that date or the end of that date. Voting periods in SecurePoll are actually half-open intervals [S, E), i.e. starting at exactly time S, proceeding up to but not including time E. So E = 2013-11-03 00:00:00 is actually the correct way to express a voting interval that includes the whole of 2013-11-02 and nothing after that. However, I have been browbeaten into using 23:59:59 in more recent elections, thus stealing a whole second of potential voting time from our poor voters. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Office hours for VisualEditor
I have to say, I'm amazed such a long discussion has occured over a question about the time for an office hours sessions. *Steven Zhang* *cro0...@gmail.com* On 31 October 2013 09:42, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 31/10/13 02:51, Newyorkbrad wrote: In an arbitration committee election a couple of years ago, I definitely recall confusion about whether a deadline of on a given date meant that the deadline expired as of the beginning of that date or the end of that date. Voting periods in SecurePoll are actually half-open intervals [S, E), i.e. starting at exactly time S, proceeding up to but not including time E. So E = 2013-11-03 00:00:00 is actually the correct way to express a voting interval that includes the whole of 2013-11-02 and nothing after that. However, I have been browbeaten into using 23:59:59 in more recent elections, thus stealing a whole second of potential voting time from our poor voters. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
