[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Isaac Olatunde]

Perhaps the list admins should consider moderating the OP? Since this
thread couldn't be locked?

Regards

Isaac

On Wed, 27 Oct 2021, 00:58 Nathan,  wrote:

> It doesn't? Killing threads used to be a regular event.
>
> Wild that all of this appears to be over a disputed 100 euro payment.
>
> On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:41 PM Risker  wrote:
>
>> I think at this point it is time to take this matter off this mailing
>> list.  I think we have all learned more than we ever expected to know about
>> the Wikimedia Slovakia user group.
>>
>> It is unfortunate that the software doesn't permit locking of threads.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Nathan]

It doesn't? Killing threads used to be a regular event.

Wild that all of this appears to be over a disputed 100 euro payment.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 7:41 PM Risker  wrote:

> I think at this point it is time to take this matter off this mailing
> list.  I think we have all learned more than we ever expected to know about
> the Wikimedia Slovakia user group.
>
> It is unfortunate that the software doesn't permit locking of threads.
>
> Risker/Anne
> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Risker]

 I think at this point it is time to take this matter off this mailing
list.  I think we have all learned more than we ever expected to know about
the Wikimedia Slovakia user group.

It is unfortunate that the software doesn't permit locking of threads.

Risker/Anne
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Michal Matúšov]

Radoslava,

I hoped that the next time for me to contribute here I would only slightly
correct some small misunderstandings... But with you it is going to be more
than slightly... Nevertheless, you have personally addressed me, so...

Also, please the next time respect the topic of this thread and do not mix
it with others (it is about AffCom / Manavpreet, not about Matej / WUG
WMSVK).

First of all, I am *not* doing personal attacks. It may seem like that
because in order to interact about human happenings it is quite
necessary to talk about persons. (violations are not happening by
themselves, they are persons who do them - for someone these can be hard to
distinct...) But if you would look at my messages with effort to
understand, you would (hopefully) get that I am pursuing truth and
agreements and want people to honor their agreements (as AffCom is required
by the Board of Trustees to follow the WMF Guiding Principles).

My informations (not accusations, as you have presented!) stays on solid
ground. This list is not an appropriate place to present them (especially
as there is going to be a dedicated investigation of AffCom in about 2
weeks, and AffCom is already working to help WUG WMSVK), but in private I
have already provided much, much, much more than reasonable evidence to
you, to WMSVK and to AffCom and personally helped you to understand it.
Some of this evidence is publicly available, so if someone want to find it,
it is possible. The evidence also put a big asterisk on your statement that
"Matej is a good and fair chairman", or maybe we have very different
understanding of these terms.

Also, you are a Board member of WUG WMSVK and you are highly responsible
for some situations that are exhausting you now. If you really want  them
to stop, you are in a great position to do meaningful actions - I have
already provided some recommendations what specifically WUG WMSVK can do to
get on track on honoring its User Group Agreement ;-)

Best regards
KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)


st 27. 10. 2021 o 0:20 Radoslava F. Semanova 
napísal(a):

> Michal,
>
> stop those personal attacks. No one lies to you, nor to anyone else. Matej
> is a good and fair chairman. I am exhausted from watching time and again
> your unfounded accusations on Matej, me, and whoever you mind. Please, stop
> it!
>
> Radoslava Semanová
> Vice-chair of Wikimedians Slovakia User group
>
> ut 26. 10. 2021 o 21:55 Michal Matúšov 
> napísal(a):
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> Just a small factual update:
>>
>> In the presented list of issues there is:
>> "Allegedly AffCom informed representatives of WUG WMSVK that it was me
>> who canceled the proposed mediation about WUG WMSVK's long-term bylaws
>> violations (while it is false - I haven't cancelled it) and AffCom never
>> ever confirmed to me whether it really provided this false information (to
>> my best Knowledge it was AffCom (or maybe someone who ordered it to
>> AffCom?) who canceled the mediation; but AffCom never clarified it to me
>> even after my explicit requests)"
>>
>> Thanks to Matej Grochal, the Chair of WUG WMSVK, who has shed light on
>> this topic! He confirmed that AffCom did **not** make this untruthful
>> communication to WUG WMSVK (as he had stated before). Rather, Grochal /
>> WMSVK have connected some data points in a wrong way, came to wrong
>> conclusion and presented it as a clear truth about someone else behaviour.
>> Although, it would be definitely helpful if AffCom would clearly stated
>> it when I have asked it. So we could move forward sooner and not waste
>> time, effort and energy asking AffCom for answer and WUG WMSVK for proof.
>>
>> Regards
>> KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
>>
>>
>> po 25. 10. 2021 o 12:32 Michal Matúšov 
>> napísal(a):
>>
>>> Dear Mehman (and Wikimedia folks in copy for transparency),
>>>
>>> I am contacting you as you are currently the highest responsible person
>>> (Vice-Chair) in the Affiliations Committee.
>>>
>>> As Manavpreet Kaur (current AffCom's Staff Liaison) is candidating for
>>> a Movement Charter Drafting Committee, and AffCom is for (at least) months
>>> showing issues about its work, which I consider that would be detrimental
>>> for the work of the Movement Charter Drafting Committee if they would be
>>> present there, and it is unclear what it Manavpreet's role in these
>>> AffCom's issues, I ask you to  publicly respond to the questions below. (I
>>> have already asked Manavpreet to respond them but she have stated that she
>>> won't be able to respond them [1] [2])
>>>
>>> (I present the questions first and the context below, so it is easier
>>> for low-involved folks to get the core part)
>>>
>>> *Questions:*
>>>
>>>
>>>1. *Do you personally consider the AffCom's happenings presented
>>>below to be in line with Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles
>>>
>>>  
>>> (especially Transparency and Accountability)?*
>>>   1. *If not, has 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Radoslava F. Semanova]

Michal,

stop those personal attacks. No one lies to you, nor to anyone else. Matej
is a good and fair chairman. I am exhausted from watching time and again
your unfounded accusations on Matej, me, and whoever you mind. Please, stop
it!

Radoslava Semanová
Vice-chair of Wikimedians Slovakia User group

ut 26. 10. 2021 o 21:55 Michal Matúšov 
napísal(a):

> Hi.
>
> Just a small factual update:
>
> In the presented list of issues there is:
> "Allegedly AffCom informed representatives of WUG WMSVK that it was me who
> canceled the proposed mediation about WUG WMSVK's long-term bylaws
> violations (while it is false - I haven't cancelled it) and AffCom never
> ever confirmed to me whether it really provided this false information (to
> my best Knowledge it was AffCom (or maybe someone who ordered it to
> AffCom?) who canceled the mediation; but AffCom never clarified it to me
> even after my explicit requests)"
>
> Thanks to Matej Grochal, the Chair of WUG WMSVK, who has shed light on
> this topic! He confirmed that AffCom did **not** make this untruthful
> communication to WUG WMSVK (as he had stated before). Rather, Grochal /
> WMSVK have connected some data points in a wrong way, came to wrong
> conclusion and presented it as a clear truth about someone else behaviour.
> Although, it would be definitely helpful if AffCom would clearly stated it
> when I have asked it. So we could move forward sooner and not waste time,
> effort and energy asking AffCom for answer and WUG WMSVK for proof.
>
> Regards
> KuboF Hromoslav (Michal Matúšov)
>
>
> po 25. 10. 2021 o 12:32 Michal Matúšov 
> napísal(a):
>
>> Dear Mehman (and Wikimedia folks in copy for transparency),
>>
>> I am contacting you as you are currently the highest responsible person
>> (Vice-Chair) in the Affiliations Committee.
>>
>> As Manavpreet Kaur (current AffCom's Staff Liaison) is candidating for
>> a Movement Charter Drafting Committee, and AffCom is for (at least) months
>> showing issues about its work, which I consider that would be detrimental
>> for the work of the Movement Charter Drafting Committee if they would be
>> present there, and it is unclear what it Manavpreet's role in these
>> AffCom's issues, I ask you to  publicly respond to the questions below. (I
>> have already asked Manavpreet to respond them but she have stated that she
>> won't be able to respond them [1] [2])
>>
>> (I present the questions first and the context below, so it is easier for
>> low-involved folks to get the core part)
>>
>> *Questions:*
>>
>>
>>1. *Do you personally consider the AffCom's happenings presented
>>below to be in line with Wikimedia Foundation Guiding Principles
>> 
>> (especially Transparency and Accountability)?*
>>   1. *If not, has Manavpreet done already something to rectify
>>   AffCom's activity to be in full alignment with them? What
>>   has Manavpreet done?*
>>   2. *If yes, please briefly clarify how (in your opinion) they are
>>   showing Transparency and Accountability.*
>>2. *What is Manavpreet's role in the AffCom's happenings presented
>>below?* (have Manavpreet supported / encouraged / decided them? or
>>have Manavpreet tried to prevent them / discourage them? or have 
>> Manavpreet
>>just fully neutraly executed decisions that leaded to them? have 
>> Manavpreet
>>presented objections that the decisions are against Wikimedia Foundation
>>Guiding Principles or similar rules / recommendations / ...? or something
>>else? please be concrete)
>>3. As much of the presented cases show AffCom's issues about clear,
>>proactive communication, *do you consider Manavpreet to be capable
>>enough to clearly, proactively, helpfully communicate in the high
>>responsibility role of Movement Charter Drafting Committee member?*
>>   1. *If it is not Manavpreet who is the source of AffCom's
>>   communication issues, who is?*
>>4. *Do you believe that Manavpreet will not "import" AffCom-like
>>issues to the Movement Charter Drafting Committee? If yes, on what basis?*
>>
>>
>> *Context:*
>>
>> I am in contact with Manavpreet mostly because of her role of Staff
>> Liaison of Affiliations Committee
>>  (AffCom), which
>> relates with my roles of (ex)Chair of some Wikimedia Affiliations. While
>> AffCom have for years reputation of slowresponsedness, it was understanable
>> because of its structure (which, in turn, is understanable because of its
>> high responsibilities) and was rather only a little anoyance, not a big
>> deal. But that have changed (for worse) at least several months ago and
>> AffCom is still very reluctant to provide more information about it.
>> Several specific cases for ilustration:
>>
>>- AffCom put on hold the recognition of User Group Esperanto and Free
>>Knowledge
>>
>> 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Butch Bustria]

Hi Michal,

We would like to clarify if this communication blast received clearance
through an en banc resolution of your committee or entirely your personal
decision? If the entire affcom was bypassed or did not explicitly authorise
your action, your position will also be at risk.

Thanks.

Kind regards,

Butch

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 9:13 PM Subhashish  wrote:

> I echo SJ's words. This is ad hominem, especially against someone who has
> been a part of the Wikimedia community much before being a part of WMF,
> continues to remain a part of her home community in volunteer capacity, and
> has expanded her volunteerism to contribute to global roles. That, IMO, is
> a full-time contribution to the Wikimedia movement in both personal and
> professional capacity. It's shameful that the title of this email includes
> Manavpreet's name and goes into with character assassination. Won't it be
> better to frame, if you doubt the process, the process as faulty and cite
> reasons rather than attacking an individual Wikimedian? It would be useful
> to fix a faulty process rather than attacking an individual based on
> circumstances which might dissuade them? Not to mention, this movement is
> already struggling with low participation of women, LGBTQ+ individuals,
> people with disabilities and indigenous members/groups. Such a behaviour
> would only help grow that gap further.
>
> Subhashish
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 7:16 PM Samuel Klein  wrote:
>
>> Michal,
>>
>> Don't be absurd.
>> *Do not use this list for personal attacks*.
>>
>> You seem to be forum-shopping an ethical disagreement
>> 
>>  with
>> others at WMSVK, and now extending that to attacking anyone who has
>> interacted with you about it.
>>
>> Manavpreet is a saint and an excellent communicator, who we are fortunate
>> to have in our movement. She no doubt responded to your concerns with
>> kindness -- unlike those who steered clear. For you to attack *her*
>> character as a result is ridiculous. When you come to your senses you owe
>> her an apology.
>>
>> We must all take care of ourselves in mentally trying times.
>> Find ways to cope that do not involve lashing out.
>>
>> SJ
>>
>> (PS - Since this subject line is itself unkind targeting -- if anyone
>> wants to comment further on-list, please use the previous thread, 
>> "*Investigation
>> of possible AffCom*...")
>> ___
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-- 
Sincerely,

Roman Bustria Jr.


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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Subhashish]

I echo SJ's words. This is ad hominem, especially against someone who has
been a part of the Wikimedia community much before being a part of WMF,
continues to remain a part of her home community in volunteer capacity, and
has expanded her volunteerism to contribute to global roles. That, IMO, is
a full-time contribution to the Wikimedia movement in both personal and
professional capacity. It's shameful that the title of this email includes
Manavpreet's name and goes into with character assassination. Won't it be
better to frame, if you doubt the process, the process as faulty and cite
reasons rather than attacking an individual Wikimedian? It would be useful
to fix a faulty process rather than attacking an individual based on
circumstances which might dissuade them? Not to mention, this movement is
already struggling with low participation of women, LGBTQ+ individuals,
people with disabilities and indigenous members/groups. Such a behaviour
would only help grow that gap further.

Subhashish


On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 7:16 PM Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Michal,
>
> Don't be absurd.
> *Do not use this list for personal attacks*.
>
> You seem to be forum-shopping an ethical disagreement
> 
>  with
> others at WMSVK, and now extending that to attacking anyone who has
> interacted with you about it.
>
> Manavpreet is a saint and an excellent communicator, who we are fortunate
> to have in our movement. She no doubt responded to your concerns with
> kindness -- unlike those who steered clear. For you to attack *her*
> character as a result is ridiculous. When you come to your senses you owe
> her an apology.
>
> We must all take care of ourselves in mentally trying times.
> Find ways to cope that do not involve lashing out.
>
> SJ
>
> (PS - Since this subject line is itself unkind targeting -- if anyone
> wants to comment further on-list, please use the previous thread, 
> "*Investigation
> of possible AffCom*...")
> ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Manavpreet Kaur's role in AffCom's issues

[Samuel Klein]

Michal,

Don't be absurd.
*Do not use this list for personal attacks*.

You seem to be forum-shopping an ethical disagreement

with
others at WMSVK, and now extending that to attacking anyone who has
interacted with you about it.

Manavpreet is a saint and an excellent communicator, who we are fortunate
to have in our movement. She no doubt responded to your concerns with
kindness -- unlike those who steered clear. For you to attack *her*
character as a result is ridiculous. When you come to your senses you owe
her an apology.

We must all take care of ourselves in mentally trying times.
Find ways to cope that do not involve lashing out.

SJ

(PS - Since this subject line is itself unkind targeting -- if anyone wants
to comment further on-list, please use the previous thread, "*Investigation
of possible AffCom*...")
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