[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Nicole Ebber]

Dear Anass,

Thank you for raising this important issue.

Your email highlights structural barriers and global injustices that
affect our communities and challenge the values of equity and
inclusion that Wikimedia Deutschland strives for. Whilst some of the
underlying reasons for visa rejections are beyond our power, the
Summit organizing team is relentlessly working in the constraints
given upon us to create an event as inclusive as possible.

The ongoing and dynamic development of Covid regulations made it
impossible for us to plan this year’s Summit with the desired lead
time. Despite these circumstances, we were eager to finally make it
possible for the organizational part of our movement to come together
again, which is why we decided to hold the Summit on-site with a
hybrid setting.

During the past months of preparing the Summit, we have been met with
bureaucratic hurdles regarding visa support for our participants. Many
participants have contacted us, stating their issues and concerns with
the availability of appointments at the embassies.

We have supported them by providing additional supporting documents
and contacting the Federal Foreign Office and respective embassies.
While this was successful in some cases, unfortunately it did not work
for all of the affected participants. It has also come to our
attention that the booking system for visa appointments has been
changed and fully digitized as of this year, which has further
complicated the process for everyone and made it even harder for us to
interfere

We will continue to examine possible ways to support future visa
processes and share our learnings with the Movement in the event
report.

Kind regards,
Nicole


On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 22:55, Bobby Shabangu  wrote:
>
> Thanks for raising this important issue Anass. We've all been victims of this 
> problem, and I need to say it's a waste of resources and time for everyone 
> involved - administration that goes into flight and hotel reservations for a 
> person who won't come because of a visa. Time consumed by the ups and downs 
> one needs to do to sort out the visa.
>
> I think we really need to have deep conversations as a movement where we 
> outline the true advantages of in-person events vs online events.
>
> Best,
> Bobby Shabangu
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 21:00, Mike Peel  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Risker,
>>
>> I broadly agree - there are a lot of benefits from in-person meetings,
>> mostly from spontaneous meetings, but not so much for the actual program!
>>
>> Different people also work in very different ways. With your second
>> point, internet connectivity problems, interface challenges, and finding
>> it difficult to socalize --- but in person --- are also relevant for
>> some (including myself ;-) ).
>>
>> Perhaps the reverse approach would be better then? Really focus on those
>> who have never had the opportunities, to solve their problems, and mix
>> with others at the conference - and for most regular attendees, get them
>> to attend online and not take up so much of the meeting resources?
>>
>> "it is critical that we don't consider the presence of those who face
>> greater challenges in attending in-person as non-essential." - I
>> completely agree with this, but on the flip side, don't consider it
>> essential that you have to attend in-person to participate equally.
>> Particularly if you can't attend in-person for any reason (family
>> commitments, travel restrictions, funding, medical issues, etc...).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 16/8/22 19:41:31, Risker wrote:
>> > I see where you are coming from, Mike.  At the same time, there is
>> > something fundamentally different about an in-person event. From my own
>> > experience, some of the most valuable learnings I have taken from
>> > in-person events have been completely unplanned; in particular,
>> > developing personal relationships with people from other parts of the
>> > world or from other projects. We should be doing our best to ensure that
>> > people from all over the world have the opportunity to have these
>> > experiences, as they have been fundamental to our growth as a movement.
>> > A lunchtime walk, a random encounter at breakfast, or a casual
>> > introduction has often turned into an action plan to collaborate.  These
>> > things don't really happen during online meetings and conferences.
>> >
>> > There are also plenty of issues with online meetings, too.  Connectivity
>> > problems, software challenges, and the fact that it's much more
>> > difficult to socialize online are just the beginning.
>> >
>> > Hybrid, yes.  But it is critical that we don't consider the presence of
>> > those who face greater challenges in attending in-person as
>> > non-essential. Their ability to participate in the same way as someone
>> > from a country with easy access is, in some ways, even more important.
>> >
>> > Risker/Anne
>> >
>> > On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 13:51, Mike Peel > > > wrote:
>> >
>> >  

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Bobby Shabangu]

Thanks for raising this important issue Anass. We've all been victims of
this problem, and I need to say it's a waste of resources and time for
everyone involved - administration that goes into flight and hotel
reservations for a person who won't come because of a visa. Time consumed
by the ups and downs one needs to do to sort out the visa.

I think we really need to have deep conversations as a movement where we
outline the true advantages of in-person events vs online events.

Best,
Bobby Shabangu

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 21:00, Mike Peel  wrote:

> Hi Risker,
>
> I broadly agree - there are a lot of benefits from in-person meetings,
> mostly from spontaneous meetings, but not so much for the actual program!
>
> Different people also work in very different ways. With your second
> point, internet connectivity problems, interface challenges, and finding
> it difficult to socalize --- but in person --- are also relevant for
> some (including myself ;-) ).
>
> Perhaps the reverse approach would be better then? Really focus on those
> who have never had the opportunities, to solve their problems, and mix
> with others at the conference - and for most regular attendees, get them
> to attend online and not take up so much of the meeting resources?
>
> "it is critical that we don't consider the presence of those who face
> greater challenges in attending in-person as non-essential." - I
> completely agree with this, but on the flip side, don't consider it
> essential that you have to attend in-person to participate equally.
> Particularly if you can't attend in-person for any reason (family
> commitments, travel restrictions, funding, medical issues, etc...).
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> On 16/8/22 19:41:31, Risker wrote:
> > I see where you are coming from, Mike.  At the same time, there is
> > something fundamentally different about an in-person event. From my own
> > experience, some of the most valuable learnings I have taken from
> > in-person events have been completely unplanned; in particular,
> > developing personal relationships with people from other parts of the
> > world or from other projects. We should be doing our best to ensure that
> > people from all over the world have the opportunity to have these
> > experiences, as they have been fundamental to our growth as a movement.
> > A lunchtime walk, a random encounter at breakfast, or a casual
> > introduction has often turned into an action plan to collaborate.  These
> > things don't really happen during online meetings and conferences.
> >
> > There are also plenty of issues with online meetings, too.  Connectivity
> > problems, software challenges, and the fact that it's much more
> > difficult to socialize online are just the beginning.
> >
> > Hybrid, yes.  But it is critical that we don't consider the presence of
> > those who face greater challenges in attending in-person as
> > non-essential. Their ability to participate in the same way as someone
> > from a country with easy access is, in some ways, even more important.
> >
> > Risker/Anne
> >
> > On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 13:51, Mike Peel  > > wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Rather than worrying about visa problems, why not use the experiences
> > we've learnt over the last few years with virtual meetings? Make sure
> > that the meeting is fully hybrid - with remote attendees being able
> to
> > participate equally with those in person? Wouldn't that be a fairer
> > approach to make sure that all who need to attend can do so?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Mike Peel]

Hi Risker,

I broadly agree - there are a lot of benefits from in-person meetings, 
mostly from spontaneous meetings, but not so much for the actual program!


Different people also work in very different ways. With your second 
point, internet connectivity problems, interface challenges, and finding 
it difficult to socalize --- but in person --- are also relevant for 
some (including myself ;-) ).


Perhaps the reverse approach would be better then? Really focus on those 
who have never had the opportunities, to solve their problems, and mix 
with others at the conference - and for most regular attendees, get them 
to attend online and not take up so much of the meeting resources?


"it is critical that we don't consider the presence of those who face 
greater challenges in attending in-person as non-essential." - I 
completely agree with this, but on the flip side, don't consider it 
essential that you have to attend in-person to participate equally. 
Particularly if you can't attend in-person for any reason (family 
commitments, travel restrictions, funding, medical issues, etc...).


Thanks,
Mike

On 16/8/22 19:41:31, Risker wrote:
I see where you are coming from, Mike.  At the same time, there is 
something fundamentally different about an in-person event. From my own 
experience, some of the most valuable learnings I have taken from 
in-person events have been completely unplanned; in particular, 
developing personal relationships with people from other parts of the 
world or from other projects. We should be doing our best to ensure that 
people from all over the world have the opportunity to have these 
experiences, as they have been fundamental to our growth as a movement.  
A lunchtime walk, a random encounter at breakfast, or a casual 
introduction has often turned into an action plan to collaborate.  These 
things don't really happen during online meetings and conferences.


There are also plenty of issues with online meetings, too.  Connectivity 
problems, software challenges, and the fact that it's much more 
difficult to socialize online are just the beginning.


Hybrid, yes.  But it is critical that we don't consider the presence of 
those who face greater challenges in attending in-person as 
non-essential. Their ability to participate in the same way as someone 
from a country with easy access is, in some ways, even more important.


Risker/Anne

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 13:51, Mike Peel > wrote:


Hi,

Rather than worrying about visa problems, why not use the experiences
we've learnt over the last few years with virtual meetings? Make sure
that the meeting is fully hybrid - with remote attendees being able to
participate equally with those in person? Wouldn't that be a fairer
approach to make sure that all who need to attend can do so?

Thanks,
Mike



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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Risker]

I see where you are coming from, Mike.  At the same time, there is
something fundamentally different about an in-person event. From my own
experience, some of the most valuable learnings I have taken from in-person
events have been completely unplanned; in particular, developing personal
relationships with people from other parts of the world or from other
projects. We should be doing our best to ensure that people from all over
the world have the opportunity to have these experiences, as they have been
fundamental to our growth as a movement.  A lunchtime walk, a random
encounter at breakfast, or a casual introduction has often turned into an
action plan to collaborate.  These things don't really happen during online
meetings and conferences.

There are also plenty of issues with online meetings, too.  Connectivity
problems, software challenges, and the fact that it's much more difficult
to socialize online are just the beginning.

Hybrid, yes.  But it is critical that we don't consider the presence of
those who face greater challenges in attending in-person as non-essential.
Their ability to participate in the same way as someone from a country with
easy access is, in some ways, even more important.

Risker/Anne

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 13:51, Mike Peel  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Rather than worrying about visa problems, why not use the experiences
> we've learnt over the last few years with virtual meetings? Make sure
> that the meeting is fully hybrid - with remote attendees being able to
> participate equally with those in person? Wouldn't that be a fairer
> approach to make sure that all who need to attend can do so?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Risker]

Anass raises a critical point. As a community, we are broadly diverse and
inclusive; however, that does not eliminate either intentional or
unintentional biases that are external to our own organization.  This was
an issue *before* 2020, and some methods had been found to mitigate the
impact of policies of various governments (e.g., invitation letters,
appointed individuals to liaise directly with local immigration
departments, etc.)

I believe that the pandemic has significantly worsened the biases of
immigration policies in many countries.  For example, many countries
require expensive testing and vaccination proof, and limit what vaccines
are acceptable, even if those vaccines or testing facilities are not
available in all areas of the world. More countries are requiring in-person
interviews at embassies and consulates before issuing visas, despite the
fact that many of the same countries have reduced staffing at those
offices.  The bias is particularly obvious for those who live in Africa and
most of Asia.

There are a few things that can be done structurally within our own
organizations.

   - Finalize dates for conferences/meetings as early as possible, and a
   minimum of 4 months in advance, and then ensure that the
   dates/locations/times/purpose of the conference/meeting is published on a
   Wikimedia-related site. This gives invitees a link to prove that the
   conference is, in fact, taking place.
   - Ensure that registration is opened very early (minimum 3 months in
   advance) and include a tick box asking if the registrant needs an
   invitation letter. Automatically send that invitation letter the day that
   the registration is accepted.
   - We know that certain meetings are going to happen on an annual basis
   (e.g., Wikimedia Summit, CEE conference,etc.) Local organizations can
   decide even in advance of the meeting date being announced whether they
   will want to send someone, and select that individual so they can start the
   visa acquisition process as soon as possible.
   - It's not possible for the groups/departments organizing travel to keep
   current on *all* of the issues for every locality; first off, they have
   been changing so frequently, even immigration professionals have a hard
   time tracking it, and secondly there are often very localized issues such
   as unexpected and poorly publicized closures of consulates, etc.  If
   someone is interested in attending an international event, they have some
   responsibility to be aware of local circumstances.
   - It would be very helpful if conference organizers arrange for a "point
   person" to liaise with the appropriate local authorities to facilitate visa
   applications.

Those are just off the top of my head.

Risker/Anne

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 12:36, Željko Blaće  wrote:

> This is sad to hear and brings back memories of filling similarly myself.
>
> To keep thinks very pragmatic I would advise that IFA.de and/or local
> Goethe Institute be contacted and invited to both part take and help with
> this. Both are likely to be willing and interested in support WMDE as they
> do cultural programming around related topics.
>
> Wikimedia should be a self referential bubble but both give and ask
> support for its work, even when it is late and no professional is assigned
> specifically to work on this.
>
> Best Z. Blace
>
> On Tuesday, August 16, 2022, Mohammed Bachounda 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> There is always a country that is accessible for some and difficult for
>> others, yet I experienced the same situation this year, and I was pushed to
>> make difficult decisions to cancel with continuous stress.
>>
>> I add that some visas are issued with only one entry and a duration of
>> only one week, if someone plans to return to the same country or the same
>> space, he has to re-submit another one. and it is also another story and
>> another galley, which brings up all the fears and doubts every time
>> Even though the WM summit team has done a very good job and with new
>> improvements year after year. It is also difficult year after year to get a
>> Schengen visa.
>>
>> I understand the problem between the budget allocated to transport and
>> accommodation in each country for any conference but only this constraint,
>> we lose more than we want to gain.
>>
>> It is time to establish a list // a guide // a recommendation of a place
>> where the balance between all the constraints are realized.
>> Technology + Budget + Free movement + Security etc.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Mohammed B achounda
>>
>>
>> Le mar. 16 août 2022 à 15:56, Iolanda Pensa  a écrit :
>>
>>> Maybe those documents can be relevant for the discussion:
>>>
>>> The learning pattern by Wikimedia Deutschland about the visa process
>>> written in 2017 -
>>> 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Mike Peel]

Hi,

Rather than worrying about visa problems, why not use the experiences 
we've learnt over the last few years with virtual meetings? Make sure 
that the meeting is fully hybrid - with remote attendees being able to 
participate equally with those in person? Wouldn't that be a fairer 
approach to make sure that all who need to attend can do so?


Thanks,
Mike

On 16/8/22 16:27:11, ZhaoFJx wrote:
Visa policies are not only time-consuming and labor-intensive, but also 
confusing. Not only that, but some people may also be stopped at 
customs. Diplomatic relations between some countries have deteriorated, 
and visas may be refused outright. COVID-19 may also be an important 
factor affecting visas.


I hope WMF will come forward to address these issues soon. But I don't 
know if WMF has this power as a Nonprofit Organization... It would be 
nice if someone could explain.



Sincerely
Jx

Iolanda Pensa mailto:iola...@pensa.it>> 于2022年8月16 
日周二 10:56写道：


Maybe those documents can be relevant for the discussion:

The learning pattern by Wikimedia Deutschland about the visa process
written in 2017 -

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns/Timing,_Communication,_Preparation:_How_to_support_your_event_participants_in_the_best_way_to_get_a_Schengen_Visa



The request to allow 3 months for visa made in 2014 -

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns/International_events%3F_Allow_three_months_for_visa_formalities




Best regards
Iolanda



Il giorno 16 ago 2022, alle ore 16:40, Gnangarra
mailto:gnanga...@gmail.com>> ha scritto:

Agree with Bodhi here, contact WMDE they have been doing this
conference for many years and should have the networks to help get
your application for a visa processed.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 22:20, Bodhisattwa
mailto:bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com>>
wrote:

Hi Anass,

Regarding the particular incident with Wikimedia Summit, I
would suggest your representative to communicate with the
conference organizing team directly about not getting any date
of appointment before the conference and they will contact
with respective embassies and consulates. Like the
representative from your affiliate, I know of few others who
did not get their visa appointments, so when they contacted
the organizing team, they were given the support and
respective embassies and consulates contacted them and gave
them appointment for submitting visa documents. I know this,
because I was one such candidate.

Regards,
Bodhisattwa

On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 19:09 Eric Luth mailto:eric.l...@wikimedia.se>> wrote:

I agree with the others that you are raising a really
important point, Anass. Thanks for that.

I have tried to support visa applicants to two
international Wikimedia events in Stockholm, the Wikimedia
Diversity Conference in 2017 and Wikimania in 2019. It was
frustrating even for me as organizer, and I can't even
imagine how frustrating and disheartening it must be for
the visa applicants.

After these two occasions, I have made a few simple
conclusions.

  * If it is of high priority that visa applications are
accepted, more funding for supporting the applications
than one might think is needed. It is time consuming
to support visa applications, but it does make a
difference.
  * One reason why there needs to be plenty of funding for
supporting the applications is that the embassies, at
least the Swedish ones, work independently of each
other. We tried to develop one process and timeline,
but it failed because of all the embassies' own
procedures and timelines. It is close to impossible to
develop one structure or process, but support needs to
be given to each applicant in their own process. If
that is done, it does however increase the likelihood
that the visa is approved.
  * For Wikimania, we were even more actively engaged in
the visa processes as compared to the Diversity
Conference – as we seemed to notice that it made a
difference. We reached out to the embassies informing
them about the upcoming conference, we were in close
communication with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[ZhaoFJx]

Visa policies are not only time-consuming and labor-intensive, but also
confusing. Not only that, but some people may also be stopped at
customs. Diplomatic relations between some countries have deteriorated, and
visas may be refused outright. COVID-19 may also be an important factor
affecting visas.

I hope WMF will come forward to address these issues soon. But I don't know
if WMF has this power as a Nonprofit Organization... It would be nice if
someone could explain.


Sincerely
Jx

Iolanda Pensa  于2022年8月16日周二 10:56写道：

> Maybe those documents can be relevant for the discussion:
>
> The learning pattern by Wikimedia Deutschland about the visa process
> written in 2017 -
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns/Timing,_Communication,_Preparation:_How_to_support_your_event_participants_in_the_best_way_to_get_a_Schengen_Visa
>
> The request to allow 3 months for visa made in 2014 -
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns/International_events%3F_Allow_three_months_for_visa_formalities
> 
>
>
> Best regards
> Iolanda
>
>
> Il giorno 16 ago 2022, alle ore 16:40, Gnangarra  ha
> scritto:
>
> Agree with Bodhi here, contact WMDE they have been doing this conference
> for many years and should have the networks to help get your application
> for a visa processed.
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 22:20, Bodhisattwa 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Anass,
>>
>> Regarding the particular incident with Wikimedia Summit, I would suggest
>> your representative to communicate with the conference organizing team
>> directly about not getting any date of appointment before the conference
>> and they will contact with respective embassies and consulates. Like the
>> representative from your affiliate, I know of few others who did not get
>> their visa appointments, so when they contacted the organizing team, they
>> were given the support and respective embassies and consulates contacted
>> them and gave them appointment for submitting visa documents. I know this,
>> because I was one such candidate.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bodhisattwa
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 19:09 Eric Luth  wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with the others that you are raising a really important point,
>>> Anass. Thanks for that.
>>>
>>> I have tried to support visa applicants to two international Wikimedia
>>> events in Stockholm, the Wikimedia Diversity Conference in 2017 and
>>> Wikimania in 2019. It was frustrating even for me as organizer, and I can't
>>> even imagine how frustrating and disheartening it must be for the visa
>>> applicants.
>>>
>>> After these two occasions, I have made a few simple conclusions.
>>>
>>>- If it is of high priority that visa applications are accepted,
>>>more funding for supporting the applications than one might think is
>>>needed. It is time consuming to support visa applications, but it does 
>>> make
>>>a difference.
>>>- One reason why there needs to be plenty of funding for supporting
>>>the applications is that the embassies, at least the Swedish ones, work
>>>independently of each other. We tried to develop one process and 
>>> timeline,
>>>but it failed because of all the embassies' own procedures and timelines.
>>>It is close to impossible to develop one structure or process, but 
>>> support
>>>needs to be given to each applicant in their own process. If that is 
>>> done,
>>>it does however increase the likelihood that the visa is approved.
>>>- For Wikimania, we were even more actively engaged in the visa
>>>processes as compared to the Diversity Conference – as we seemed to 
>>> notice
>>>that it made a difference. We reached out to the embassies informing them
>>>about the upcoming conference, we were in close communication with the
>>>Ministry of Foreign Affairs, that organized a reception during Wikimania
>>>for WikiGap organizers, and even successfully appealed a rejection. All
>>>this took a lot of time, and not all applications were successful. But a
>>>higher proportion was successful as compared to the Diversity Conference.
>>>- We are not sure, but WikiGap *seems* to have made a difference in
>>>many embassies. That is, the Swedish embassy in a given country has after
>>>the WikiGap events a relationship to the Wikimedia movement, and might 
>>> even
>>>know about the applicants, which in many cases *seems* to have led
>>>to more approvals. I am not sure if that is possible to repeat in more
>>>instances, but for us it shows at least that building relations might 
>>> help.
>>>
>>> I don't think, however, that we will ever reach 100% approvals. I thus
>>> also wholeheartedly agree with the previous message that we need to explore
>>> successful person / remote integration.
>>>
>>> I also want to acknowledge the fact that I write this as a previous
>>> organizer. As the situation is of course much 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Željko Blaće]

This is sad to hear and brings back memories of filling similarly myself.

To keep thinks very pragmatic I would advise that IFA.de and/or local
Goethe Institute be contacted and invited to both part take and help with
this. Both are likely to be willing and interested in support WMDE as they
do cultural programming around related topics.

Wikimedia should be a self referential bubble but both give and ask support
for its work, even when it is late and no professional is assigned
specifically to work on this.

Best Z. Blace

On Tuesday, August 16, 2022, Mohammed Bachounda  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> There is always a country that is accessible for some and difficult for
> others, yet I experienced the same situation this year, and I was pushed to
> make difficult decisions to cancel with continuous stress.
>
> I add that some visas are issued with only one entry and a duration of
> only one week, if someone plans to return to the same country or the same
> space, he has to re-submit another one. and it is also another story and
> another galley, which brings up all the fears and doubts every time
> Even though the WM summit team has done a very good job and with new
> improvements year after year. It is also difficult year after year to get a
> Schengen visa.
>
> I understand the problem between the budget allocated to transport and
> accommodation in each country for any conference but only this constraint,
> we lose more than we want to gain.
>
> It is time to establish a list // a guide // a recommendation of a place
> where the balance between all the constraints are realized.
> Technology + Budget + Free movement + Security etc.
>
> Best
>
> Mohammed B achounda
>
>
> Le mar. 16 août 2022 à 15:56, Iolanda Pensa  a écrit :
>
>> Maybe those documents can be relevant for the discussion:
>>
>> The learning pattern by Wikimedia Deutschland about the visa process
>> written in 2017 - https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Learning_patterns/Timing,_Communication,_Preparation:_
>> How_to_support_your_event_participants_in_the_best_way_
>> to_get_a_Schengen_Visa
>> The request to allow 3 months for visa made in 2014 -
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns/
>> International_events%3F_Allow_three_months_for_visa_formalities
>> 
>>
>>
>> Best regards
>> Iolanda
>>
>>
>> Il giorno 16 ago 2022, alle ore 16:40, Gnangarra 
>> ha scritto:
>>
>> Agree with Bodhi here, contact WMDE they have been doing this conference
>> for many years and should have the networks to help get your application
>> for a visa processed.
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 22:20, Bodhisattwa 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Anass,
>>>
>>> Regarding the particular incident with Wikimedia Summit, I would suggest
>>> your representative to communicate with the conference organizing team
>>> directly about not getting any date of appointment before the conference
>>> and they will contact with respective embassies and consulates. Like the
>>> representative from your affiliate, I know of few others who did not get
>>> their visa appointments, so when they contacted the organizing team, they
>>> were given the support and respective embassies and consulates contacted
>>> them and gave them appointment for submitting visa documents. I know this,
>>> because I was one such candidate.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Bodhisattwa
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 19:09 Eric Luth  wrote:
>>>
 I agree with the others that you are raising a really important point,
 Anass. Thanks for that.

 I have tried to support visa applicants to two international Wikimedia
 events in Stockholm, the Wikimedia Diversity Conference in 2017 and
 Wikimania in 2019. It was frustrating even for me as organizer, and I can't
 even imagine how frustrating and disheartening it must be for the visa
 applicants.

 After these two occasions, I have made a few simple conclusions.

- If it is of high priority that visa applications are accepted,
more funding for supporting the applications than one might think is
needed. It is time consuming to support visa applications, but it does 
 make
a difference.
- One reason why there needs to be plenty of funding for supporting
the applications is that the embassies, at least the Swedish ones, work
independently of each other. We tried to develop one process and 
 timeline,
but it failed because of all the embassies' own procedures and 
 timelines.
It is close to impossible to develop one structure or process, but 
 support
needs to be given to each applicant in their own process. If that is 
 done,
it does however increase the likelihood that the visa is approved.
- For Wikimania, we were even more actively engaged in the visa
processes as 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Mohammed Bachounda]

Hello,

There is always a country that is accessible for some and difficult for
others, yet I experienced the same situation this year, and I was pushed to
make difficult decisions to cancel with continuous stress.

I add that some visas are issued with only one entry and a duration of only
one week, if someone plans to return to the same country or the same space,
he has to re-submit another one. and it is also another story and another
galley, which brings up all the fears and doubts every time
Even though the WM summit team has done a very good job and with new
improvements year after year. It is also difficult year after year to get a
Schengen visa.

I understand the problem between the budget allocated to transport and
accommodation in each country for any conference but only this constraint,
we lose more than we want to gain.

It is time to establish a list // a guide // a recommendation of a place
where the balance between all the constraints are realized.
Technology + Budget + Free movement + Security etc.

Best

Mohammed B achounda


Le mar. 16 août 2022 à 15:56, Iolanda Pensa  a écrit :

> Maybe those documents can be relevant for the discussion:
>
> The learning pattern by Wikimedia Deutschland about the visa process
> written in 2017 -
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns/Timing,_Communication,_Preparation:_How_to_support_your_event_participants_in_the_best_way_to_get_a_Schengen_Visa
>
> The request to allow 3 months for visa made in 2014 -
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns/International_events%3F_Allow_three_months_for_visa_formalities
> 
>
>
> Best regards
> Iolanda
>
>
> Il giorno 16 ago 2022, alle ore 16:40, Gnangarra  ha
> scritto:
>
> Agree with Bodhi here, contact WMDE they have been doing this conference
> for many years and should have the networks to help get your application
> for a visa processed.
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 22:20, Bodhisattwa 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Anass,
>>
>> Regarding the particular incident with Wikimedia Summit, I would suggest
>> your representative to communicate with the conference organizing team
>> directly about not getting any date of appointment before the conference
>> and they will contact with respective embassies and consulates. Like the
>> representative from your affiliate, I know of few others who did not get
>> their visa appointments, so when they contacted the organizing team, they
>> were given the support and respective embassies and consulates contacted
>> them and gave them appointment for submitting visa documents. I know this,
>> because I was one such candidate.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bodhisattwa
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 19:09 Eric Luth  wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with the others that you are raising a really important point,
>>> Anass. Thanks for that.
>>>
>>> I have tried to support visa applicants to two international Wikimedia
>>> events in Stockholm, the Wikimedia Diversity Conference in 2017 and
>>> Wikimania in 2019. It was frustrating even for me as organizer, and I can't
>>> even imagine how frustrating and disheartening it must be for the visa
>>> applicants.
>>>
>>> After these two occasions, I have made a few simple conclusions.
>>>
>>>- If it is of high priority that visa applications are accepted,
>>>more funding for supporting the applications than one might think is
>>>needed. It is time consuming to support visa applications, but it does 
>>> make
>>>a difference.
>>>- One reason why there needs to be plenty of funding for supporting
>>>the applications is that the embassies, at least the Swedish ones, work
>>>independently of each other. We tried to develop one process and 
>>> timeline,
>>>but it failed because of all the embassies' own procedures and timelines.
>>>It is close to impossible to develop one structure or process, but 
>>> support
>>>needs to be given to each applicant in their own process. If that is 
>>> done,
>>>it does however increase the likelihood that the visa is approved.
>>>- For Wikimania, we were even more actively engaged in the visa
>>>processes as compared to the Diversity Conference – as we seemed to 
>>> notice
>>>that it made a difference. We reached out to the embassies informing them
>>>about the upcoming conference, we were in close communication with the
>>>Ministry of Foreign Affairs, that organized a reception during Wikimania
>>>for WikiGap organizers, and even successfully appealed a rejection. All
>>>this took a lot of time, and not all applications were successful. But a
>>>higher proportion was successful as compared to the Diversity Conference.
>>>- We are not sure, but WikiGap *seems* to have made a difference in
>>>many embassies. That is, the Swedish embassy in a given country has after
>>>the WikiGap 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Iolanda Pensa]

Maybe those documents can be relevant for the discussion:

The learning pattern by Wikimedia Deutschland about the visa process written in 
2017 - 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns/Timing,_Communication,_Preparation:_How_to_support_your_event_participants_in_the_best_way_to_get_a_Schengen_Visa
 

 
The request to allow 3 months for visa made in 2014 - 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns/International_events%3F_Allow_three_months_for_visa_formalities
 

 

Best regards
Iolanda


> Il giorno 16 ago 2022, alle ore 16:40, Gnangarra  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Agree with Bodhi here, contact WMDE they have been doing this conference for 
> many years and should have the networks to help get your application for a 
> visa processed.  
> 
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 22:20, Bodhisattwa  > wrote:
> Hi Anass,
> 
> Regarding the particular incident with Wikimedia Summit, I would suggest your 
> representative to communicate with the conference organizing team directly 
> about not getting any date of appointment before the conference and they will 
> contact with respective embassies and consulates. Like the representative 
> from your affiliate, I know of few others who did not get their visa 
> appointments, so when they contacted the organizing team, they were given the 
> support and respective embassies and consulates contacted them and gave them 
> appointment for submitting visa documents. I know this, because I was one 
> such candidate.
> 
> Regards,
> Bodhisattwa
> 
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 19:09 Eric Luth  > wrote:
> I agree with the others that you are raising a really important point, Anass. 
> Thanks for that. 
> 
> I have tried to support visa applicants to two international Wikimedia events 
> in Stockholm, the Wikimedia Diversity Conference in 2017 and Wikimania in 
> 2019. It was frustrating even for me as organizer, and I can't even imagine 
> how frustrating and disheartening it must be for the visa applicants. 
> 
> After these two occasions, I have made a few simple conclusions.
> If it is of high priority that visa applications are accepted, more funding 
> for supporting the applications than one might think is needed. It is time 
> consuming to support visa applications, but it does make a difference. 
> One reason why there needs to be plenty of funding for supporting the 
> applications is that the embassies, at least the Swedish ones, work 
> independently of each other. We tried to develop one process and timeline, 
> but it failed because of all the embassies' own procedures and timelines. It 
> is close to impossible to develop one structure or process, but support needs 
> to be given to each applicant in their own process. If that is done, it does 
> however increase the likelihood that the visa is approved. 
> For Wikimania, we were even more actively engaged in the visa processes as 
> compared to the Diversity Conference – as we seemed to notice that it made a 
> difference. We reached out to the embassies informing them about the upcoming 
> conference, we were in close communication with the Ministry of Foreign 
> Affairs, that organized a reception during Wikimania for WikiGap organizers, 
> and even successfully appealed a rejection. All this took a lot of time, and 
> not all applications were successful. But a higher proportion was successful 
> as compared to the Diversity Conference. 
> We are not sure, but WikiGap seems to have made a difference in many 
> embassies. That is, the Swedish embassy in a given country has after the 
> WikiGap events a relationship to the Wikimedia movement, and might even know 
> about the applicants, which in many cases seems to have led to more 
> approvals. I am not sure if that is possible to repeat in more instances, but 
> for us it shows at least that building relations might help.
> I don't think, however, that we will ever reach 100% approvals. I thus also 
> wholeheartedly agree with the previous message that we need to explore 
> successful person / remote integration. 
> 
> I also want to acknowledge the fact that I write this as a previous 
> organizer. As the situation is of course much harder for all applicants, for 
> me it is not about complaining, but trying to rase a few points that can 
> perhaps increase the probability of approvals in more cases. 
> 
> Best, 
> Eric Luth
> Projektledare engagemang och påverkan | Project Manager, Involvement and 
> Advocacy
> Wikimedia Sverige
> eric.l...@wikimedia.se 
> +46 (0) 765 55 50 95
> 
> Stöd fri kunskap, bli medlem i Wikimedia Sverige.
> Läs mer på blimedlem.wikimedia.se 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Gnangarra]

Agree with Bodhi here, contact WMDE they have been doing this conference
for many years and should have the networks to help get your application
for a visa processed.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 at 22:20, Bodhisattwa 
wrote:

> Hi Anass,
>
> Regarding the particular incident with Wikimedia Summit, I would suggest
> your representative to communicate with the conference organizing team
> directly about not getting any date of appointment before the conference
> and they will contact with respective embassies and consulates. Like the
> representative from your affiliate, I know of few others who did not get
> their visa appointments, so when they contacted the organizing team, they
> were given the support and respective embassies and consulates contacted
> them and gave them appointment for submitting visa documents. I know this,
> because I was one such candidate.
>
> Regards,
> Bodhisattwa
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 19:09 Eric Luth  wrote:
>
>> I agree with the others that you are raising a really important point,
>> Anass. Thanks for that.
>>
>> I have tried to support visa applicants to two international Wikimedia
>> events in Stockholm, the Wikimedia Diversity Conference in 2017 and
>> Wikimania in 2019. It was frustrating even for me as organizer, and I can't
>> even imagine how frustrating and disheartening it must be for the visa
>> applicants.
>>
>> After these two occasions, I have made a few simple conclusions.
>>
>>- If it is of high priority that visa applications are accepted, more
>>funding for supporting the applications than one might think is needed. It
>>is time consuming to support visa applications, but it does make a
>>difference.
>>- One reason why there needs to be plenty of funding for supporting
>>the applications is that the embassies, at least the Swedish ones, work
>>independently of each other. We tried to develop one process and timeline,
>>but it failed because of all the embassies' own procedures and timelines.
>>It is close to impossible to develop one structure or process, but support
>>needs to be given to each applicant in their own process. If that is done,
>>it does however increase the likelihood that the visa is approved.
>>- For Wikimania, we were even more actively engaged in the visa
>>processes as compared to the Diversity Conference – as we seemed to notice
>>that it made a difference. We reached out to the embassies informing them
>>about the upcoming conference, we were in close communication with the
>>Ministry of Foreign Affairs, that organized a reception during Wikimania
>>for WikiGap organizers, and even successfully appealed a rejection. All
>>this took a lot of time, and not all applications were successful. But a
>>higher proportion was successful as compared to the Diversity Conference.
>>- We are not sure, but WikiGap *seems* to have made a difference in
>>many embassies. That is, the Swedish embassy in a given country has after
>>the WikiGap events a relationship to the Wikimedia movement, and might 
>> even
>>know about the applicants, which in many cases *seems* to have led to
>>more approvals. I am not sure if that is possible to repeat in more
>>instances, but for us it shows at least that building relations might 
>> help.
>>
>> I don't think, however, that we will ever reach 100% approvals. I thus
>> also wholeheartedly agree with the previous message that we need to explore
>> successful person / remote integration.
>>
>> I also want to acknowledge the fact that I write this as a previous
>> organizer. As the situation is of course much harder for all applicants,
>> for me it is not about complaining, but trying to rase a few points that
>> can perhaps increase the probability of approvals in more cases.
>>
>> Best,
>> *Eric Luth*
>> Projektledare engagemang och påverkan | Project Manager, Involvement and
>> Advocacy
>> Wikimedia Sverige
>> eric.l...@wikimedia.se
>> +46 (0) 765 55 50 95
>>
>> Stöd fri kunskap, bli medlem i Wikimedia Sverige.
>> Läs mer på blimedlem.wikimedia.se
>>
>>
>>
>> Den tis 16 aug. 2022 kl 14:51 skrev :
>>
>>> Thanks Anass for bringing this up! It's a very frustrating situation for
>>> community members to deal with visas. It's also worth noting that in
>>> certain cases there are places that request a visa from certain countries,
>>> but do not have an Embassy in the country they are requesting the visa from
>>> -- meaning that a community member has to travel to another destination
>>> (sometimes significantly far away!) in order to get paper processed. That
>>> takes money and time.
>>>
>>> To me, the big elephant in the room is the need to re-imagine how we can
>>> do better integration of in person / remote events. The challenge here is
>>> that in the upcoming future it won't make sense from a carbon budget &
>>> climate perspective to fly people around the world, and we need to start
>>> designing more real 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Bodhisattwa]

Hi Anass,

Regarding the particular incident with Wikimedia Summit, I would suggest
your representative to communicate with the conference organizing team
directly about not getting any date of appointment before the conference
and they will contact with respective embassies and consulates. Like the
representative from your affiliate, I know of few others who did not get
their visa appointments, so when they contacted the organizing team, they
were given the support and respective embassies and consulates contacted
them and gave them appointment for submitting visa documents. I know this,
because I was one such candidate.

Regards,
Bodhisattwa

On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 19:09 Eric Luth  wrote:

> I agree with the others that you are raising a really important point,
> Anass. Thanks for that.
>
> I have tried to support visa applicants to two international Wikimedia
> events in Stockholm, the Wikimedia Diversity Conference in 2017 and
> Wikimania in 2019. It was frustrating even for me as organizer, and I can't
> even imagine how frustrating and disheartening it must be for the visa
> applicants.
>
> After these two occasions, I have made a few simple conclusions.
>
>- If it is of high priority that visa applications are accepted, more
>funding for supporting the applications than one might think is needed. It
>is time consuming to support visa applications, but it does make a
>difference.
>- One reason why there needs to be plenty of funding for supporting
>the applications is that the embassies, at least the Swedish ones, work
>independently of each other. We tried to develop one process and timeline,
>but it failed because of all the embassies' own procedures and timelines.
>It is close to impossible to develop one structure or process, but support
>needs to be given to each applicant in their own process. If that is done,
>it does however increase the likelihood that the visa is approved.
>- For Wikimania, we were even more actively engaged in the visa
>processes as compared to the Diversity Conference – as we seemed to notice
>that it made a difference. We reached out to the embassies informing them
>about the upcoming conference, we were in close communication with the
>Ministry of Foreign Affairs, that organized a reception during Wikimania
>for WikiGap organizers, and even successfully appealed a rejection. All
>this took a lot of time, and not all applications were successful. But a
>higher proportion was successful as compared to the Diversity Conference.
>- We are not sure, but WikiGap *seems* to have made a difference in
>many embassies. That is, the Swedish embassy in a given country has after
>the WikiGap events a relationship to the Wikimedia movement, and might even
>know about the applicants, which in many cases *seems* to have led to
>more approvals. I am not sure if that is possible to repeat in more
>instances, but for us it shows at least that building relations might help.
>
> I don't think, however, that we will ever reach 100% approvals. I thus
> also wholeheartedly agree with the previous message that we need to explore
> successful person / remote integration.
>
> I also want to acknowledge the fact that I write this as a previous
> organizer. As the situation is of course much harder for all applicants,
> for me it is not about complaining, but trying to rase a few points that
> can perhaps increase the probability of approvals in more cases.
>
> Best,
> *Eric Luth*
> Projektledare engagemang och påverkan | Project Manager, Involvement and
> Advocacy
> Wikimedia Sverige
> eric.l...@wikimedia.se
> +46 (0) 765 55 50 95
>
> Stöd fri kunskap, bli medlem i Wikimedia Sverige.
> Läs mer på blimedlem.wikimedia.se
>
>
>
> Den tis 16 aug. 2022 kl 14:51 skrev :
>
>> Thanks Anass for bringing this up! It's a very frustrating situation for
>> community members to deal with visas. It's also worth noting that in
>> certain cases there are places that request a visa from certain countries,
>> but do not have an Embassy in the country they are requesting the visa from
>> -- meaning that a community member has to travel to another destination
>> (sometimes significantly far away!) in order to get paper processed. That
>> takes money and time.
>>
>> To me, the big elephant in the room is the need to re-imagine how we can
>> do better integration of in person / remote events. The challenge here is
>> that in the upcoming future it won't make sense from a carbon budget &
>> climate perspective to fly people around the world, and we need to start
>> designing more real decentralized events, not only to expect that we'll be
>> able to plug a video screen somewhere and have in-person meetings while
>> people watch from the outside (which doesn't lead to real participation /
>> interaction).
>>
>> Also, flights have gone up significantly -- plane tickets are double the
>> amount that they were before the 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Samuel Klein]

>> their applications or give them appointments within months from now.
>>
>> I am sharing these personal reflections after witnessing several problems
>> that happened to many members through time with the same issue. I would
>> like to know how this can be better solved in the future? Can conferences
>> prepare documentation 6 months before they start? Can the WMF give
>> official
>> support and help contacting embassies? Is there any way to address this in
>> a good manner?
>>
>> I feel really sad that there is no equity in this matter. I know that it
>> is
>> naïve to think about a world without borders, but isn't our Wikimedia
>> movement supposed to support everyone? How can we be better at this?
>>
>> P.S: This post is not about myself or situation, but rather a reflection
>> after talking with many people facing this issue in my region, and who
>> missed so many events because of Visas. I don't want them to miss events
>> again in the future! Is it possible?
>>
>> Thank you all for taking the time to read this, and I wish you a good
>> Tuesday!
>>
>> Best regards,
>> --
>> -
>> *Anass SEDRATI*
>> -- next part --
>> A message part incompatible with plain text digests has been removed ...
>> Name: not available
>> Type: text/html
>> Size: 4305 bytes
>> Desc: not available
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 15:39:18 +0430
>> From: Mardetanha 
>> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for
>> Wikimedians
>> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
>> Message-ID:
>> > bu8cmd9a3bahn+p_xgysm15dfhdbe8y1wox1mhn...@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>> boundary="4d172805e659c864"
>>
>> Thanks anass, I am sympathetic to this occurrence, as I have suffered from
>> this issue for a long time, I urge all event organizers to take this into
>> consideration and plan as early as possible.
>>
>> Mohsen
>> Mardetanha
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 2:43 PM Anass Sedrati  wrote:
>>
>> > Hello all,
>> >
>> > This might not be relevant for all, but since we are a global movement
>> > striving for equity between all humans, I would like to share a
>> reflection
>> > regarding the situation of some of us, and the challenges that are
>> > unfortunately not yet solved, although we are familiar with them since
>> > years.
>> >
>> > As you know, the Wikimedia summit is happening soon, and our user group
>> > (Wikimedia Morocco User group) had a member invited to attend it in
>> person.
>> > As soon as he knew about his participation, our member started preparing
>> > his documentation and went to book a time at the German embassy. To his
>> > surprise, the first appointments were until October (while the
>> conference
>> > is in September). This resulted in this member not being able to attend
>> the
>> > summit in-person, as well as all our user group (as this is not
>> > person-dependent, but systemic, so anyone living in Morocco and applying
>> > for a visa will not get it before October).
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, this issue is not an exception. It is almost the rule. In
>> > every Wikimedia conference, there are people not able to attend because
>> of
>> > Visa issues, yet it is not properly addressed.
>> >
>> > Many of the challenges in our movement are addressed or at least
>> discussed
>> > in different forums and strategies. However, it feels that the equity in
>> > participating in-person for Visa required participants is not a
>> priority.
>> > Usually, invites come at a time that does not really allow a good
>> > preparation of the documentation (and embassy appointments), and there
>> is
>> > no support with the embassies, so inexperienced volunteers are left to
>> > themselves dealing with very official instances, who just simply reject
>> > their applications or give them appointments within months from now.
>> >
>> > I am sharing these personal reflections after witnessing several
>> problems
>> > that happened to many members through time with the same issue. I would
>> > like to know how this can be better solved in the future? Can
>> conferences
>> > prepare documentation 6 months before they start? Can the WM

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Eric Luth]

I agree with the others that you are raising a really important point,
Anass. Thanks for that.

I have tried to support visa applicants to two international Wikimedia
events in Stockholm, the Wikimedia Diversity Conference in 2017 and
Wikimania in 2019. It was frustrating even for me as organizer, and I can't
even imagine how frustrating and disheartening it must be for the visa
applicants.

After these two occasions, I have made a few simple conclusions.

   - If it is of high priority that visa applications are accepted, more
   funding for supporting the applications than one might think is needed. It
   is time consuming to support visa applications, but it does make a
   difference.
   - One reason why there needs to be plenty of funding for supporting the
   applications is that the embassies, at least the Swedish ones, work
   independently of each other. We tried to develop one process and timeline,
   but it failed because of all the embassies' own procedures and timelines.
   It is close to impossible to develop one structure or process, but support
   needs to be given to each applicant in their own process. If that is done,
   it does however increase the likelihood that the visa is approved.
   - For Wikimania, we were even more actively engaged in the visa
   processes as compared to the Diversity Conference – as we seemed to notice
   that it made a difference. We reached out to the embassies informing them
   about the upcoming conference, we were in close communication with the
   Ministry of Foreign Affairs, that organized a reception during Wikimania
   for WikiGap organizers, and even successfully appealed a rejection. All
   this took a lot of time, and not all applications were successful. But a
   higher proportion was successful as compared to the Diversity Conference.
   - We are not sure, but WikiGap *seems* to have made a difference in many
   embassies. That is, the Swedish embassy in a given country has after the
   WikiGap events a relationship to the Wikimedia movement, and might even
   know about the applicants, which in many cases *seems* to have led to
   more approvals. I am not sure if that is possible to repeat in more
   instances, but for us it shows at least that building relations might help.

I don't think, however, that we will ever reach 100% approvals. I thus also
wholeheartedly agree with the previous message that we need to explore
successful person / remote integration.

I also want to acknowledge the fact that I write this as a previous
organizer. As the situation is of course much harder for all applicants,
for me it is not about complaining, but trying to rase a few points that
can perhaps increase the probability of approvals in more cases.

Best,
*Eric Luth*
Projektledare engagemang och påverkan | Project Manager, Involvement and
Advocacy
Wikimedia Sverige
eric.l...@wikimedia.se
+46 (0) 765 55 50 95

Stöd fri kunskap, bli medlem i Wikimedia Sverige.
Läs mer på blimedlem.wikimedia.se



Den tis 16 aug. 2022 kl 14:51 skrev :

> Thanks Anass for bringing this up! It's a very frustrating situation for
> community members to deal with visas. It's also worth noting that in
> certain cases there are places that request a visa from certain countries,
> but do not have an Embassy in the country they are requesting the visa from
> -- meaning that a community member has to travel to another destination
> (sometimes significantly far away!) in order to get paper processed. That
> takes money and time.
>
> To me, the big elephant in the room is the need to re-imagine how we can
> do better integration of in person / remote events. The challenge here is
> that in the upcoming future it won't make sense from a carbon budget &
> climate perspective to fly people around the world, and we need to start
> designing more real decentralized events, not only to expect that we'll be
> able to plug a video screen somewhere and have in-person meetings while
> people watch from the outside (which doesn't lead to real participation /
> interaction).
>
> Also, flights have gone up significantly -- plane tickets are double the
> amount that they were before the pandemic; this also will represent a
> challenge for conference organizers, because they will be able to fly even
> less people with the money allocated for the event. And also worth noting
> that from anyone outside of the US / Europe, flying to Europe takes *a lot
> of time*. How we are asking community members and volunteers to use their
> time it's a big part of the conversation about equity.
>
> Sorry to hear that the visa issue has prevented a community member to
> bring their perspective fully into the table.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> 

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[WereSpielChequers]

aking the time to read this, and I wish you a good
> Tuesday!
>
> Best regards,
> --
> -
> *Anass SEDRATI*
> -- next part --
> A message part incompatible with plain text digests has been removed ...
> Name: not available
> Type: text/html
> Size: 4305 bytes
> Desc: not available
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2022 15:39:18 +0430
> From: Mardetanha 
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for
> Wikimedians
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> Message-ID:
>  bu8cmd9a3bahn+p_xgysm15dfhdbe8y1wox1mhn...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="4d172805e659c864"
>
> Thanks anass, I am sympathetic to this occurrence, as I have suffered from
> this issue for a long time, I urge all event organizers to take this into
> consideration and plan as early as possible.
>
> Mohsen
> Mardetanha
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 2:43 PM Anass Sedrati  wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > This might not be relevant for all, but since we are a global movement
> > striving for equity between all humans, I would like to share a
> reflection
> > regarding the situation of some of us, and the challenges that are
> > unfortunately not yet solved, although we are familiar with them since
> > years.
> >
> > As you know, the Wikimedia summit is happening soon, and our user group
> > (Wikimedia Morocco User group) had a member invited to attend it in
> person.
> > As soon as he knew about his participation, our member started preparing
> > his documentation and went to book a time at the German embassy. To his
> > surprise, the first appointments were until October (while the conference
> > is in September). This resulted in this member not being able to attend
> the
> > summit in-person, as well as all our user group (as this is not
> > person-dependent, but systemic, so anyone living in Morocco and applying
> > for a visa will not get it before October).
> >
> > Unfortunately, this issue is not an exception. It is almost the rule. In
> > every Wikimedia conference, there are people not able to attend because
> of
> > Visa issues, yet it is not properly addressed.
> >
> > Many of the challenges in our movement are addressed or at least
> discussed
> > in different forums and strategies. However, it feels that the equity in
> > participating in-person for Visa required participants is not a priority.
> > Usually, invites come at a time that does not really allow a good
> > preparation of the documentation (and embassy appointments), and there is
> > no support with the embassies, so inexperienced volunteers are left to
> > themselves dealing with very official instances, who just simply reject
> > their applications or give them appointments within months from now.
> >
> > I am sharing these personal reflections after witnessing several problems
> > that happened to many members through time with the same issue. I would
> > like to know how this can be better solved in the future? Can conferences
> > prepare documentation 6 months before they start? Can the WMF give
> official
> > support and help contacting embassies? Is there any way to address this
> in
> > a good manner?
> >
> > I feel really sad that there is no equity in this matter. I know that it
> > is naïve to think about a world without borders, but isn't our Wikimedia
> > movement supposed to support everyone? How can we be better at this?
> >
> > P.S: This post is not about myself or situation, but rather a reflection
> > after talking with many people facing this issue in my region, and who
> > missed so many events because of Visas. I don't want them to miss events
> > again in the future! Is it possible?
> >
> > Thank you all for taking the time to read this, and I wish you a good
> > Tuesday!
> >
> > Best regards,
> > --
> > -
> > *Anass SEDRATI*
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Z7XKE7ZWPUNTGELZCSQNLDEQSKBS7U3N/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@l

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[eheidel]

Thanks Anass for bringing this up! It's a very frustrating situation for 
community members to deal with visas. It's also worth noting that in certain 
cases there are places that request a visa from certain countries, but do not 
have an Embassy in the country they are requesting the visa from -- meaning 
that a community member has to travel to another destination (sometimes 
significantly far away!) in order to get paper processed. That takes money and 
time.

To me, the big elephant in the room is the need to re-imagine how we can do 
better integration of in person / remote events. The challenge here is that in 
the upcoming future it won't make sense from a carbon budget & climate 
perspective to fly people around the world, and we need to start designing more 
real decentralized events, not only to expect that we'll be able to plug a 
video screen somewhere and have in-person meetings while people watch from the 
outside (which doesn't lead to real participation / interaction). 

Also, flights have gone up significantly -- plane tickets are double the amount 
that they were before the pandemic; this also will represent a challenge for 
conference organizers, because they will be able to fly even less people with 
the money allocated for the event. And also worth noting that from anyone 
outside of the US / Europe, flying to Europe takes *a lot of time*. How we are 
asking community members and volunteers to use their time it's a big part of 
the conversation about equity.

Sorry to hear that the visa issue has prevented a community member to bring 
their perspective fully into the table.
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/X2ZGHJMQ4HZ3LEJTQFZHVDJYX2YO6A7D/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org

[Wikimedia-l] Re: Reflections about Visa situation for Wikimedians

[Mardetanha]

Thanks anass, I am sympathetic to this occurrence, as I have suffered from
this issue for a long time, I urge all event organizers to take this into
consideration and plan as early as possible.

Mohsen
Mardetanha


On Tue, Aug 16, 2022 at 2:43 PM Anass Sedrati  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> This might not be relevant for all, but since we are a global movement
> striving for equity between all humans, I would like to share a reflection
> regarding the situation of some of us, and the challenges that are
> unfortunately not yet solved, although we are familiar with them since
> years.
>
> As you know, the Wikimedia summit is happening soon, and our user group
> (Wikimedia Morocco User group) had a member invited to attend it in person.
> As soon as he knew about his participation, our member started preparing
> his documentation and went to book a time at the German embassy. To his
> surprise, the first appointments were until October (while the conference
> is in September). This resulted in this member not being able to attend the
> summit in-person, as well as all our user group (as this is not
> person-dependent, but systemic, so anyone living in Morocco and applying
> for a visa will not get it before October).
>
> Unfortunately, this issue is not an exception. It is almost the rule. In
> every Wikimedia conference, there are people not able to attend because of
> Visa issues, yet it is not properly addressed.
>
> Many of the challenges in our movement are addressed or at least discussed
> in different forums and strategies. However, it feels that the equity in
> participating in-person for Visa required participants is not a priority.
> Usually, invites come at a time that does not really allow a good
> preparation of the documentation (and embassy appointments), and there is
> no support with the embassies, so inexperienced volunteers are left to
> themselves dealing with very official instances, who just simply reject
> their applications or give them appointments within months from now.
>
> I am sharing these personal reflections after witnessing several problems
> that happened to many members through time with the same issue. I would
> like to know how this can be better solved in the future? Can conferences
> prepare documentation 6 months before they start? Can the WMF give official
> support and help contacting embassies? Is there any way to address this in
> a good manner?
>
> I feel really sad that there is no equity in this matter. I know that it
> is naïve to think about a world without borders, but isn't our Wikimedia
> movement supposed to support everyone? How can we be better at this?
>
> P.S: This post is not about myself or situation, but rather a reflection
> after talking with many people facing this issue in my region, and who
> missed so many events because of Visas. I don't want them to miss events
> again in the future! Is it possible?
>
> Thank you all for taking the time to read this, and I wish you a good
> Tuesday!
>
> Best regards,
> --
> -
> *Anass SEDRATI*
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Z7XKE7ZWPUNTGELZCSQNLDEQSKBS7U3N/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Public archives at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GNPZHEMY4RKA5UZGJFIZXYFSG6PWFDJA/
To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org