Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] on WCI, the report, and more

[Theo10011]

Hi Bishakha

On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Bishakha Datta wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Theo10011  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Bishakha
>>
>> I am not sure if you are intentionally leaving out Pranav or if that was
>> an oversight.
>>
>
> Not sure what you mean - could you clarify?
>

Sure, As I recall, the conference had two main organizers, Pradeep and
Pranav. As of writing this, both of them have taken more or less a similar
course of action. Pranav's report, which I do believe was written with
Pradeep's knowledge and agreement, while not exactly in his complete
opinion, mention politics as an issue, as does his blog.

I was merely asking, why you are focusing on departure of one community
member and not the other involved in the same event in the same position?
What elicited this empathy that may not be as apparent for Pranav.

I think that was my intention.


>
>
>>
>> I don't know how you can think reporting itself was the problem, I'm
>> really confused how you formed that impression. We can of course, start
>> lying, avoid any cautionary tales and keep repeating "all is great", or you
>> can actually confront the situation.
>>
>
> Hey, I'm never in favour of whitewashing, ignoring or turning a blind eye
> to shortcomings - but it is important to be constructive in giving feedback
> and to take personal responsibility as well. I'm totally in favour of all
> that, as is evident from my questions. Certainly not advocating 'no
> reporting'; I'm in favour of strengthening the reporting.
>
> If, as Srikanth suggests, others who worked on WCI 2011 write in with
> their comments and suggestions, this would help greatly in analysing what
> worked, what didn't, and what we can carry with us to the next conf.
>
>

I don't find criticism as destructive, knowing our fault and short-comings,
is how we improve. The other option is denial.

What would have been more helpful in this case? No report, or a
white-washed report, after which both organizers leave. As I said, earlier,
this is a conflicting point, I can see your perspective and understand it,
but I can also see the other side of the argument. We haven't had a lot of
post-event discussion openly, how else would we even find out what the
point of contentions were, if they both just left after a thankful report.

We can all write smaller reports on what we did, but none of us on the
list, were in the hot-seat like those two. They were the main organizers,
and as much as we can add our own perspectives, we can not know theirs,
until they report it themselves.

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] on WCI, the report, and more

[Bishakha Datta]

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Theo10011  wrote:
>
>
> Hi Bishakha
>
> I am not sure if you are intentionally leaving out Pranav or if that was
> an oversight.
>

Not sure what you mean - could you clarify?


>
> I don't know how you can think reporting itself was the problem, I'm
> really confused how you formed that impression. We can of course, start
> lying, avoid any cautionary tales and keep repeating "all is great", or you
> can actually confront the situation.
>

Hey, I'm never in favour of whitewashing, ignoring or turning a blind eye
to shortcomings - but it is important to be constructive in giving feedback
and to take personal responsibility as well. I'm totally in favour of all
that, as is evident from my questions. Certainly not advocating 'no
reporting'; I'm in favour of strengthening the reporting.

If, as Srikanth suggests, others who worked on WCI 2011 write in with their
comments and suggestions, this would help greatly in analysing what worked,
what didn't, and what we can carry with us to the next conf.

Cheers
Bishakha
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] on WCI, the report, and more

[Srikanth Lakshmanan]

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Bishakha Datta wrote:

> *How can we ensure that such reports represent the perspectives of many of
> those involved in such events, rather than a singular perspective? One way
> to do so is to involve all 'teams' in writing their parts of the report -
> eg Scholarships, Programs etc, getting internal consensus within each team,
> and then providing it to the core team.


I agree with you on involving 'teams' in writing what went right / wrong in
their respective tasks. There is no need for internal consensus and all
that process, there is a talk page[1] and it has edit button on it, people
can sign with 4 ~ after their comments. :) I have a huge list of comments
on how programs could have been better  or communications for that
matter (there was no formal communication team IIRC, or people who worked
on communicating to delegates, speakers, others). I am going to use the
talk and but I am not sure how soon I can do that, would anyway be missing
few things since its already 6 months.

I urge anyone else involved in other tasks to do the same for the sake
documenting at a granular level of what happened @ WCI in their perspective
and how *they* could done it better. (Putting unpleasant things is not
wrong, but remember to point self as well in a fair self retrospection).

*How can we retain the sense of fun that is so much part of - and integral
> to - a volunteer movement?


What happened in WCI was a severe burnout. I can't count more than few
people who worked, but there were truckload of armchair advisers. It can't
be fun if that's the case. Looking back, chapter's decision to have a
bidding process would have made everyone aware where there are gaps in
capabilities to an extent, but just because people had Jimmy's dates it had
to be organized in Mumbai looks like a joke to me and I don't fully agree
to "It is important to acknowledge at this point that the entire Indian
Wikipedia Community backed and rallied behind the Mumbai and Pune
communities" since the discussion happened on a closed list of few people
out there. But am only hoping next WCI will be not held for the sake of
hosting it, but after careful review of what happened in WCI 11 and making
honest efforts in fixing a lot of things / procedures (including finances
/regulations /all drama) and making sure the host city has *enough*
volunteers who are committed to hold an event of the scale.

[1]
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:WM_IN/WikiConference_India_2011/Report

-- 
Regards
Srikanth.L

PS : I completely liked the random order of acknowledgements in the report
;)
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] on WCI, the report, and more

[Theo10011]

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Bishakha Datta wrote:
>
> Pradeep's post brought up some immediate and broader questions for me,
> which I've put up on his blog.
>
> Also reproducing them here, simply because I don't think we should
> under-estimate what his post means. That someone who was such an integral
> part of the Mumbai and India community and the wikimedia movement feels
> despairing enough to retire - over the 'politicking' - is not a good sign.
>
> *Reporting*
> *How can we ensure that such reports are based on consensus, so that those
> who've been vital parts of such community events do not later feel
> alienated by the reporting?
>
> *How can we ensure that such reports represent the perspectives of many of
> those involved in such events, rather than a singular perspective? One way
> to do so is to involve all 'teams' in writing their parts of the report -
> eg Scholarships, Programs etc, getting internal consensus within each team,
> and then providing it to the core team.
>
> *How can we ensure that such reports are constructive, rather than
> destructive, in their criticism, and steer clear of name calling or
> singling out individuals?
>
> *How can we ensure that such reports 'look forward' to helping future
> community teams that organize such conferences, rather than backwards at
> pinpointing perceived errors of omission and commission?
>
> *How can we ensure that such reports have a helpful problem-solution
> approach, eg "this was the problem, this was how we fixed it" to supplement
> the documentation of processes leading up to an event? That would really
> help future teams.
>
> *Broader*
> *How can we retain the sense of fun that is so much part of - and integral
> to - a volunteer movement?
>
> *How can we create a sense of togetherness, a sense that we're all working
> towards the same shared goals?
>
> *How can we ask the tough questions that are needed to make constituents
> accountable to a larger community while ensuring that we are not unduly
> politicking or undermining trust in the process? And how do we know when
> enough is enough, that it's time to stop?
>
> Many other questions, but I'll stop here for now. I forgot to put some of
> these up on the blog, they occurred to me while I was writing this.
>
> Best
> Bishakha
>
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>
>
Hi Bishakha

I am not sure if you are intentionally leaving out Pranav or if that was an
oversight. Anyway, I don't know what asking those dozen or so, questions
changes. Maybe you didn't ask enough. :P

I don't know how you can think reporting itself was the problem, I'm really
confused how you formed that impression. We can of course, start lying,
avoid any cautionary tales and keep repeating "all is great", or you can
actually confront the situation. I'm conflicted a bit here, about the
negative tones and name calling in the report, but at the same time, if
pranav didn't acknowledge what the problems were, why he and pradeep left
the community all together after, we won't know what is going on - Like I
said, I'm conflicted on this one, but I can't blame him either.

The India programs is turning into a mess frankly. I don't know even know
what the status is, or has been with the India operations these days - Is
it a trust, are they direct contractors? Is there any legal entity to speak
of? - There used to be announcements about regular meetings, but they
apparently go on-and-off every other month. Besides having no communication
with any one at the India staff, while living in the same city and running
the Delhi list, the only activity I can acknowledge that has been happening
for a few months, are small meetups and outreach sessions, which are
usually done by volunteers and actual editors, all around the world.  It's
no surprise we are still talking and reeling from the effects of what
happened last year.

Regards
Theo

P.S. I am still waiting on Tinu to comment how bad the politics have
gotten. ;)
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] on WCI, the report, and more

[Theo10011]

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Achal Prabhala wrote:

> Pradeep maintains a personal blog and wrote up his thoughts on the WCI
> report earlier shared with this list:
>
> http://pradx.me/2012/05/22/**wikiconference-india-2011-**
> report-more-personal-thoughts/
>
> This is in the context of:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/**wiki/Grants:WM_IN/**WikiConference_India_2011/
> **Report
>
> I appreciate his perspective very much, and I believe it's worth thinking
> about seriously - Pradeep confirmed that he doesn't mind me sending the
> link to this list.
>
> More than just providing a fuller perspective on the WCI report, I am
> particularly moved and distressed by the fact that his decision to retire
> (I hope temporarily) is based on the harsh politics he encountered while
> working in the movement; a situation that is far from ideal and surely
> something that is affecting more people than just him. There's a lot to
> reflect upon and learn from here.
>
> Best,
> Achal
>
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>


Ohai Achal

Long time no see. I hope all is well. Almost as eloquent as before, and why
won't you be.

So, I have tried to follow what has been going on lately. Pradeep retired a
while ago from the lists, than from his WP account, I'm not sure what
changed now. As I see it the report and his comments don't conflict each
other much, he did sign off on the report as far as I know.

Anyway, I don't know what you mean by "harsh politics", perhaps you can
elaborate a little, I am vexed. How can we reflect and learn if we don't
know what the problem is. I have been insulated from the recent
developments, the last thing I commented on was Barry posturing against
Ashwin. I did hear something about Pranav recently but I'm sure you already
know. Please enlighten me.

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] on WCI, the report, and more

[Bishakha Datta]

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Achal Prabhala wrote:

> Pradeep maintains a personal blog and wrote up his thoughts on the WCI
> report earlier shared with this list:
>
> http://pradx.me/2012/05/22/**wikiconference-india-2011-**
> report-more-personal-thoughts/
>
>
Pradeep's post brought up some immediate and broader questions for me,
which I've put up on his blog.

Also reproducing them here, simply because I don't think we should
under-estimate what his post means. That someone who was such an integral
part of the Mumbai and India community and the wikimedia movement feels
despairing enough to retire - over the 'politicking' - is not a good sign.

*Reporting*
*How can we ensure that such reports are based on consensus, so that those
who've been vital parts of such community events do not later feel
alienated by the reporting?

*How can we ensure that such reports represent the perspectives of many of
those involved in such events, rather than a singular perspective? One way
to do so is to involve all 'teams' in writing their parts of the report -
eg Scholarships, Programs etc, getting internal consensus within each team,
and then providing it to the core team.

*How can we ensure that such reports are constructive, rather than
destructive, in their criticism, and steer clear of name calling or
singling out individuals?

*How can we ensure that such reports 'look forward' to helping future
community teams that organize such conferences, rather than backwards at
pinpointing perceived errors of omission and commission?

*How can we ensure that such reports have a helpful problem-solution
approach, eg "this was the problem, this was how we fixed it" to supplement
the documentation of processes leading up to an event? That would really
help future teams.

*Broader*
*How can we retain the sense of fun that is so much part of - and integral
to - a volunteer movement?

*How can we create a sense of togetherness, a sense that we're all working
towards the same shared goals?

*How can we ask the tough questions that are needed to make constituents
accountable to a larger community while ensuring that we are not unduly
politicking or undermining trust in the process? And how do we know when
enough is enough, that it's time to stop?

Many other questions, but I'll stop here for now. I forgot to put some of
these up on the blog, they occurred to me while I was writing this.

Best
Bishakha
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[Wikimediaindia-l] on WCI, the report, and more

[Achal Prabhala]

Pradeep maintains a personal blog and wrote up his thoughts on the WCI 
report earlier shared with this list:


http://pradx.me/2012/05/22/wikiconference-india-2011-report-more-personal-thoughts/

This is in the context of:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:WM_IN/WikiConference_India_2011/Report

I appreciate his perspective very much, and I believe it's worth 
thinking about seriously - Pradeep confirmed that he doesn't mind me 
sending the link to this list.


More than just providing a fuller perspective on the WCI report, I am 
particularly moved and distressed by the fact that his decision to 
retire (I hope temporarily) is based on the harsh politics he 
encountered while working in the movement; a situation that is far from 
ideal and surely something that is affecting more people than just him. 
There's a lot to reflect upon and learn from here.


Best,
Achal

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