[Wikitech-l] Deployments for (short) week of 2020-08-10

[Tyler Cipriani]

Hi All

tl;dr: Don't deploy on Thursday except for emergencies; the deployment
calendar on Wikitech
 is
up-to-date.

Friday of next week (2020-08-14) is a wmf holiday. As such, Thursday should
be treated as Friday for the purposes of deployment; that is, no
deployments on Thursday except for emergencies
.

This has implications for the (1.36.0-wmf.4) train—we'll be going to all
wikis on Wednesday evening UTC rather than Thursday evening UTC:

   - Tue, 11 Aug, EU Train Window, 13:00 UTC: Group0
   - Wed, 12 Aug, EU Train Window, 13:00 UTC: Group1
   - Wed 12 Aug, US Train Window, 19:00 UTC: All Wikis

Hopefully, this will allow time for manual testing on Group0 wikis, and
allow us to complete the train on time.

<3
-- Tyler
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Upgrading mailman (the software behind mailing lists)

[David Gerard]

In fairness, pipermail archives were always a bit shaky - on the
occasions when an email's had to be removed from the archive
previously, it's messed up the URLs of all the other emails in that
month's archive.

But let's say it would be *nice* not to mess up the public archive
URLs if feasible :-)


- d.


On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 21:19, Amir Sarabadani  wrote:
>
> hmm, Links of archived discussions in private mailing lists are not as
> important as the ones in public lists, we definitely should migrate public
> mailing lists first and after that we can migrate any private mailing list
> that is okay with their links being broken (and then we remove those old
> archives to make it unaccessible to public). It probably means we need to
> keep mailman2 around for a while.
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:38 PM AntiCompositeNumber <
> anticompositenum...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I would agree that it would be a good solution, except for the next
> > bullet in the same document:
> > "The above mechanism won’t work for private archives since the
> > archives are gated with password and without a Mailman 2 list, there
> > is no password. You can however import them to Mailman 3."
> >
> > Since keeping private lists private is also a requirement, that pretty
> > much means rolling our own auth system on top of Mailman 3 or creating
> > a bunch of HTTP redirect rules.
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 3:31 PM Amir Sarabadani 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > According to the upgrade guide (
> > > https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/migration.html#other-considerations
> > ):
> > > "If you need your URLs for Mailman 2 archives to work, you can keep the
> > > HTML files generated for the archives around and your web server
> > > configuration for the archives intact (possibly with a notice to viewers
> > > that it is now a read-only archive, see this list
> > >  for example)."
> > >
> > > Here's an example: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/security-sig/
> > (with a
> > > notice).
> > >
> > > It means, the old archives will stay the same (and accessible/searchable
> > > with the new interface as well) but new mails won't get added there to
> > the
> > > old archives. I think that's a good compromise.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:19 PM David Gerard  wrote:
> > >
> > > > yes - those links are thrown around as if they're archival. How will
> > > > the change affect links to past messages? Will someone need to
> > > > construct a redirect farm?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - d.
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 19:54, AntiCompositeNumber
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Glad to hear this is moving forward!
> > > > >
> > > > > Keeping archive links working, for both public and private lists,
> > > > > should be a requirement. There's a lot of institutional knowledge
> > > > > stored in the mailing list archives, and it's very important to keep
> > > > > that around.
> > > > >
> > > > > ACN
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 1:05 PM Zoran Dori 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > this looks great. Especially because of "mobile friendly" function.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > Zoran Dori
> > > > > > Volunteer on Wikimedia Foundation's projects
> > > > > > E: zorandori4...@gmail.com
> > > > > > W: kizule.tk
> > > > > > I: iamkizule 
> > > > > > ___
> > > > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amir (he/him)
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Upgrading mailman (the software behind mailing lists)

[Amir Sarabadani]

hmm, Links of archived discussions in private mailing lists are not as
important as the ones in public lists, we definitely should migrate public
mailing lists first and after that we can migrate any private mailing list
that is okay with their links being broken (and then we remove those old
archives to make it unaccessible to public). It probably means we need to
keep mailman2 around for a while.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:38 PM AntiCompositeNumber <
anticompositenum...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I would agree that it would be a good solution, except for the next
> bullet in the same document:
> "The above mechanism won’t work for private archives since the
> archives are gated with password and without a Mailman 2 list, there
> is no password. You can however import them to Mailman 3."
>
> Since keeping private lists private is also a requirement, that pretty
> much means rolling our own auth system on top of Mailman 3 or creating
> a bunch of HTTP redirect rules.
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 3:31 PM Amir Sarabadani 
> wrote:
> >
> > According to the upgrade guide (
> > https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/migration.html#other-considerations
> ):
> > "If you need your URLs for Mailman 2 archives to work, you can keep the
> > HTML files generated for the archives around and your web server
> > configuration for the archives intact (possibly with a notice to viewers
> > that it is now a read-only archive, see this list
> >  for example)."
> >
> > Here's an example: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/security-sig/
> (with a
> > notice).
> >
> > It means, the old archives will stay the same (and accessible/searchable
> > with the new interface as well) but new mails won't get added there to
> the
> > old archives. I think that's a good compromise.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:19 PM David Gerard  wrote:
> >
> > > yes - those links are thrown around as if they're archival. How will
> > > the change affect links to past messages? Will someone need to
> > > construct a redirect farm?
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 19:54, AntiCompositeNumber
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Glad to hear this is moving forward!
> > > >
> > > > Keeping archive links working, for both public and private lists,
> > > > should be a requirement. There's a lot of institutional knowledge
> > > > stored in the mailing list archives, and it's very important to keep
> > > > that around.
> > > >
> > > > ACN
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 1:05 PM Zoran Dori 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > > this looks great. Especially because of "mobile friendly" function.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Zoran Dori
> > > > > Volunteer on Wikimedia Foundation's projects
> > > > > E: zorandori4...@gmail.com
> > > > > W: kizule.tk
> > > > > I: iamkizule 
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Amir (he/him)
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Upgrading mailman (the software behind mailing lists)

[AntiCompositeNumber]

I would agree that it would be a good solution, except for the next
bullet in the same document:
"The above mechanism won’t work for private archives since the
archives are gated with password and without a Mailman 2 list, there
is no password. You can however import them to Mailman 3."

Since keeping private lists private is also a requirement, that pretty
much means rolling our own auth system on top of Mailman 3 or creating
a bunch of HTTP redirect rules.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 3:31 PM Amir Sarabadani  wrote:
>
> According to the upgrade guide (
> https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/migration.html#other-considerations):
> "If you need your URLs for Mailman 2 archives to work, you can keep the
> HTML files generated for the archives around and your web server
> configuration for the archives intact (possibly with a notice to viewers
> that it is now a read-only archive, see this list
>  for example)."
>
> Here's an example: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/security-sig/ (with a
> notice).
>
> It means, the old archives will stay the same (and accessible/searchable
> with the new interface as well) but new mails won't get added there to the
> old archives. I think that's a good compromise.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:19 PM David Gerard  wrote:
>
> > yes - those links are thrown around as if they're archival. How will
> > the change affect links to past messages? Will someone need to
> > construct a redirect farm?
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 19:54, AntiCompositeNumber
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Glad to hear this is moving forward!
> > >
> > > Keeping archive links working, for both public and private lists,
> > > should be a requirement. There's a lot of institutional knowledge
> > > stored in the mailing list archives, and it's very important to keep
> > > that around.
> > >
> > > ACN
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 1:05 PM Zoran Dori 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > > this looks great. Especially because of "mobile friendly" function.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Zoran Dori
> > > > Volunteer on Wikimedia Foundation's projects
> > > > E: zorandori4...@gmail.com
> > > > W: kizule.tk
> > > > I: iamkizule 
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
> ___
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> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Upgrading mailman (the software behind mailing lists)

[Amir Sarabadani]

According to the upgrade guide (
https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/migration.html#other-considerations):
"If you need your URLs for Mailman 2 archives to work, you can keep the
HTML files generated for the archives around and your web server
configuration for the archives intact (possibly with a notice to viewers
that it is now a read-only archive, see this list
 for example)."

Here's an example: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/security-sig/ (with a
notice).

It means, the old archives will stay the same (and accessible/searchable
with the new interface as well) but new mails won't get added there to the
old archives. I think that's a good compromise.


On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:19 PM David Gerard  wrote:

> yes - those links are thrown around as if they're archival. How will
> the change affect links to past messages? Will someone need to
> construct a redirect farm?
>
>
> - d.
>
> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 19:54, AntiCompositeNumber
>  wrote:
> >
> > Glad to hear this is moving forward!
> >
> > Keeping archive links working, for both public and private lists,
> > should be a requirement. There's a lot of institutional knowledge
> > stored in the mailing list archives, and it's very important to keep
> > that around.
> >
> > ACN
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 1:05 PM Zoran Dori 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > > this looks great. Especially because of "mobile friendly" function.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Zoran Dori
> > > Volunteer on Wikimedia Foundation's projects
> > > E: zorandori4...@gmail.com
> > > W: kizule.tk
> > > I: iamkizule 
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Upgrading mailman (the software behind mailing lists)

[David Gerard]

yes - those links are thrown around as if they're archival. How will
the change affect links to past messages? Will someone need to
construct a redirect farm?


- d.

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 19:54, AntiCompositeNumber
 wrote:
>
> Glad to hear this is moving forward!
>
> Keeping archive links working, for both public and private lists,
> should be a requirement. There's a lot of institutional knowledge
> stored in the mailing list archives, and it's very important to keep
> that around.
>
> ACN
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 1:05 PM Zoran Dori  wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > this looks great. Especially because of "mobile friendly" function.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Zoran Dori
> > Volunteer on Wikimedia Foundation's projects
> > E: zorandori4...@gmail.com
> > W: kizule.tk
> > I: iamkizule 
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Upgrading mailman (the software behind mailing lists)

[AntiCompositeNumber]

Glad to hear this is moving forward!

Keeping archive links working, for both public and private lists,
should be a requirement. There's a lot of institutional knowledge
stored in the mailing list archives, and it's very important to keep
that around.

ACN

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 1:05 PM Zoran Dori  wrote:
>
> Hello,
> this looks great. Especially because of "mobile friendly" function.
>
> Best regards,
> Zoran Dori
> Volunteer on Wikimedia Foundation's projects
> E: zorandori4...@gmail.com
> W: kizule.tk
> I: iamkizule 
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Upgrading mailman (the software behind mailing lists)

[Zoran Dori]

Hello,
this looks great. Especially because of "mobile friendly" function.

Best regards,
Zoran Dori
Volunteer on Wikimedia Foundation's projects
E: zorandori4...@gmail.com
W: kizule.tk
I: iamkizule 
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Ethical question regarding some code

[Gergő Tisza]

FWIW, the movement strategy included a recommendation* for having a
technology ethics review process [1]; maybe this is a good opportunity to
experiment with creating a precursory, unofficial version of that - make a
wiki page for the sock puppet detection tool, and a proposal process for
such pages, and consider where we could source expert advice from.

* More precisely, it was a draft recommendation. The final recommendations
were significantly less fine-grained.
[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations/Iteration_2/Product_%26_Technology/8
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Ethical question regarding some code

[Gergo Tisza]

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 2:18 AM Nathan  wrote:

> I don't see how any part of it constitutes creating biometric identifiers,
> nor is it obvious to me how it must remove anonymity of users.
>

The GDPR for example defines biometric data as "personal data resulting
from specific technical processing relating to the physical, physiological
or behavioural characteristics of a natural person, which allow or confirm
the unique identification of that natural person" (Art. 4 (14)). That seems
to fit, although it could be argued that the tool would link accounts to
other accounts and not to people so the data is not used for
"identification of a natural person", but that does not sound super
convincing. The GDPR (Art 9) generally forbids processing biometric data,
except for a number of special cases, some of which can be argued to apply:

* processing is carried out in the course of its legitimate activities with
appropriate safeguards by a foundation, association or any other
not-for-profit body with a political, philosophical, religious or trade
union aim and on condition that the processing relates solely to the
members or to former members of the body or to persons who have regular
contact with it in connection with its purposes and that the personal data
are not disclosed outside that body without the consent of the data
subjects;
* processing relates to personal data which are manifestly made public by
the data subject;

but I wouldn't say it's clear-cut.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Upgrading mailman (the software behind mailing lists)

[Kaartic Sivaraam]

Hi,


On 9 ஆகஸ்ட், 2020 2:25:30 AM IST, Amir Sarabadani  wrote:
>Hey,
>Mailman, the software that powers our mailing lists, is extremely old,
>by
>looking at https://lists.wikimedia.org/ you can guess how old it is.
>
>I would really like to upgrade it to mailman 3 which has these
>benefits:
>* Much better security (including but not limited to
>https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T181803)
>* Much better UI and UX

Including a mobile friendly archive page! I really love this. Thanks!!

-- 
Sivaraam

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Ethical question regarding some code

[Gergő Tisza]

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:39 PM Ryan Kaldari  wrote:

> Whatever danger is embodied in Amir's code, it's only a matter of time
> before this danger is ubiquitous. And for the worst-case
> scenario—governments using the technology to hunt down dissidents—I imagine
> this is already happening. So while I agree there is a moral consideration
> to releasing this software, I think the moral implications aren't actually
> that huge. Eventually, we will just have to accept that creating separate
> accounts is not an effective way to protect your identity.


Deanonymizing wiki accounts is one way of misusing the tool, and one which
would indeed happen anyway. Another scenario is an attacker examining the
tool with the intent of misleading it (such as using an adversarial network
to construct edits which the tool would consistently misidentify as
belonging to a certain user, which could be used to cast suspicion on a
legitimate user). That specifically depends on the model being publicly
available.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Ethical question regarding some code

[Gergő Tisza]

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 7:43 PM Amir Sarabadani  wrote:

> * By closed source, I don't mean it will be only accessible to me, It's
> already accessible by another CU and one WMF staff, and I would gladly
> share the code with anyone who has signed NDA and they are of course more
> than welcome to change it. Github has a really low limit for people who can
> access a private repo but I would be fine with any means to fix this.
>

Closed source is commonly understood to mean the code is not under an
OSI-approved open-source license (such code is banned from Toolforge).
Contrary to common misconceptions, many OSI-approved open-source licenses
(such as the GPL) allow keeping the code private, as long as the software
itself is also kept private. IMO it would be less confusing to use the
"public"/"private" terminology here - yes the code should be open-sourced,
but that's mostly orthogonal to the concerns discussed here.

* It has been pointed out by people in the checkuser mailing list that
> there's no point in logging accessing this tool, since the code is
> accessible to CUs (if they want to), so they can download and run it on
> their computer without logging anyway.
>

There's a significant difference between your actions not being logged vs.
your actions being logged unless you actively circumvent the logging (in
ways which would probably seem malicious). Clear red lines work well in a
community project even when there's nothing physically stopping people from
stepping over them.

* There is a huge difference between CU and this AI tool in matters of
> privacy. While both are privacy sensitive but CU reveals much more, as a
> CU, I know where lots of people are living or studying because they showed
> up in my CUs (...) but this tool only reveals a connection between
> accounts if
> one of them is linked to a public identity and the other is not which I
> wholeheartedly agree is not great but it's not on the same level as seeing
> people's IPs.
>

On the other hand, IP checks are very unreliable. A hypothetical tool that
is reliable would be a bigger privacy concern, since it would be used more
often and more successfully to extract private details.
(On the other other hand, as a Wikipedia editor I have a reasonable
expectation of privacy of the site not telling its administrators where I
live. Do I have a reasonable expectation of privacy for not telling them
what my alt accounts are? Arguably not.)

Also, how much help would such a tool be in off-wiki stylometry? If it can
be used (on its own or with additional tooling) to connect wiki accounts to
other online accounts, that would subjectively seem to me to have a
significantly larger privacy impact than IP addresses.
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[Wikitech-l] (no subject)

[public bot]

94107
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Upgrading mailman (the software behind mailing lists)

[ZI Jony]

Great! It's really good and useful.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 7:41 AM Denny Vrandečić 
wrote:

> Thank you so much!
>
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 13:56 Amir Sarabadani  wrote:
>
> > Hey,
> > Mailman, the software that powers our mailing lists, is extremely old, by
> > looking at https://lists.wikimedia.org/ you can guess how old it is.
> >
> > I would really like to upgrade it to mailman 3 which has these benefits:
> > * Much better security (including but not limited to
> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T181803)
> > * Much better UI and UX
> > * Much easier moderation and maintaining mailing lists
> > * Ability to send mail from the web
> > * Ability to search in archives.
> > * Ability to like/dislike an email
> > * List admins will be able to delete emails, merge threads, and much
> more.
> > * Admins won't need to store passwords for each mailing list separately,
> > they just login as their account everywhere.
> > * The current mailman stores everything as files (even mailing list
> > settings), mailman3 actually uses a proper database for everything
> meaning
> > proper backup and recovery, high availability and much more.
> >
> > I have already put up a test setup and humbly ask you (specially list
> > admins) to test it (and its admin interface), if you want to become a
> list
> > admin, drop me a message. Keep in mind that we don't maintain the
> software
> > so the most I can do is to change configuration and can't handle a
> feature
> > request or solve a bug (you are more than welcome to file it against
> > upstream though)
> >
> > Here's the test setup:
> > * https://lists.wmcloud.org
> >
> > Here's a mailing list:
> > * https://lists.wmcloud.org/postorius/lists/test.lists.wmcloud.org/
> >
> > Here's an archive post:
> > *
> >
> >
> https://lists.wmcloud.org/hyperkitty/list/t...@lists.wmcloud.org/thread/RMQPKSS4ID3WALFXAF636J2NGBVCN3UA/
> >
> > Issues that I haven't figured out yet:
> > * This system has profile picture support but it's only gravatar which we
> > can't enable due to our privacy policy but when you disable it, it shows
> > empty squares and looks bad. Reported upstream [1] but also we can have a
> > gravatar proxy in production. And in the worst case scenario we can just
> > inject "$('.gravatar').remove();" and remove them. Feel free to chime in
> in
> > the phabricator ticket in this regard:
> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T256541
> >
> > * Upgrade will break archive links, making it work forever is not trivial
> > (you need write apache rewrite rule) (You can read about it in
> > https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/migration.html#other-considerations)
> >
> > * Mailman allows us to upgrade mailing list by mailing list, that's good
> > but we haven't found a way to keep the old version and the new ones in
> sync
> > (archives, etc.). Maybe we migrate a mailing list and the archives for
> the
> > old version will stop getting updated. Would that work for you? Feel free
> > to chime in: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T256539
> >
> > * We don't know what would be the size of the database after upgrade
> > because these two versions are so inherently different, one idea was to
> > check the size of a fully public mailing list, then move the files to the
> > test setup, upgrade it to the new version  and check how it changes, then
> > extrapolate the size of the final database. The discussion around the
> > database is happening in https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T256538
> >
> > If you want to help in the upgrade (like puppetzining its configuration,
> > etc.) just let me know and I add you to the project! It uses a
> stand-alone
> > puppetmaster so you don't need to get your puppet patches merged to see
> its
> > effects.
> >
> > The main ticket about the upgrade:
> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864
> >
> > [1] https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/-/issues/303#note_365162201
> >
> > Hope that'll be useful for you :)
> > --
> > Amir (he/him)
> > ___
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> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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