Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
On 11/02/11 00:24, Platonides wrote: snip And many don't even perform one edit. As I don't believe so many people create them just to change their preferences, it is a mistery for me why do they do so. My brother is always logged in but barely edit anything. The top reasons are: - he uses the watchlist - the edit interface makes it too long / too hard to correct minor typos or rephrase a sentence. - trolls I am myself mostly logged in but barely edit now a day (I prefer contributing to the MW code base). -- Ashar Voultoiz ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
On 02/11/2011 12:24 AM, Platonides wrote: And many don't even perform one edit. As I don't believe so many people create them just to change their preferences, it is a mistery for me why do they do so. Becoming an active wikipedian is a process in many steps, each involving a large amount of hesitation. Does this article really need improvement? Can I fix it? Should I fix it? Do I know how to edit? Do I have the time right now? Should I register? After having improved the text, should I really press save, or should I just quit and forget about it? Maybe we have a million readers, and only 10% think the article needs improvement, only 10% of them think they could fix it, etc. We are losing people in every step of hesitation from reader to active contributor. It is really irrelevant in which step we lose them. We may have a million readers and we get a hundred contributors. These might be 100 out of 1,000 registered users or 100 out of 10,000 who thought about registering, or 100 out of 5,000 who went half-way through registration. The constant is 100 and the other number is quite arbitrary. Any statistic based on that arbitrary number is bound to be bad math. -- Lars Aronsson (l...@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
Hoi, I blogged about the practical ways we can support gender in our user interface. I believe that when we address women properly we will gain respect as well as more buy in. As I describe practical things that will enhance the experience of women, I am really eager to learn to what extend we are willing to put our money where our mouth is in welcoming women to our projects. Thanks, GerardM http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2011/02/female-form-comes-at-cost.html On 9 February 2011 21:50, Ole Palnatoke Andersen palnat...@gmail.comwrote: Perhaps this list is a better place for this question (got no answer on gendergap list): On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences, you can specify a gender. Do we collect these data? -Ole -- http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
There's a parallel talk into it chapter about gender gap. This gap is part of a larger gap involving software development in general; there are few programmer women. I presume, that this highlights a similarity between wiki and a software development environment; and really many from most enthusiast, and productive contributors are too programmers. But... as you know, the profile of a programmer is far from the profile of a woman; consider the famous statement The three chief virtues of a programmer are: Laziness, Impatience and Hubris.. Then consider the pedia statement Be bold!, that is a gentler way to name hubris. :-) Is gender gap so mysterious? Alex ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
On 02/09/2011 11:18 PM, DaB. wrote: sure. I asked the toolserver-database: en.wikipedia: Male: 233312 Femaile: 46973 All user: 13959842 One thing that could be interesting is to trace the career of users: When they register, how frequent they edit, if the frequency varies over time, and if these patterns differ between men and women and the gender-anonymous. Perhaps we have more gender equality among medium-activity users, but the most extreme are men? Or vice versa? Perhaps users who signed up in 2010 are more gender equal than those recruited in 2007? Or not? Now, if a woman uses a male pseudonym, she would obviously self-declare as a man, so we can't know if this correlates to real gender. We could only measure the setting. -- Lars Aronsson (l...@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Lars Aronsson l...@aronsson.se wrote: One thing that could be interesting is to trace the career of users: When they register, how frequent they edit, if the frequency varies over time, and if these patterns differ between men and women and the gender-anonymous. User:Dispenser is working on something similar, I think for the next Signpost. Take a look at this (a work in progress and not mine, so please don't distribute): http://toolserver.org/~dispenser/temp/gender/total_edit_zero_2011-02-10.png The table at the left traces gender identification rates for editors with less than or equal to the listed number of edits (but more than the previous row). So the first row is editors with 0 edits, the second is editors with 1 edit, the third is editors with 2-3 edits, then 4-7 edits, etc. The last row is everyone with over ~65k edits (and less than 5,000,000). So the takeaways are: a) the more edits you make, the more likely you are to declare your gender. b) the ratio of declared females to males falls from about 20% for people who make just zero or one edit, to a stable 5-6% for people who make 1000 or more edits. Of course, as Woonpton notes, there could be factors that distort that. Maybe women who become active editors are more likely than other women to *not* declare gender. But at first glance, it would seem that the gender gap is larger among very active editors. -Sage ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
On 02/11/2011 12:24 AM, Platonides wrote: And many don't even perform one edit. As I don't believe so many people create them just to change their preferences, it is a mistery for me why do they do so. Creating an account also allows you to dismiss banners. My first step when I have a minor issue with something is google search my complaint (i.e fix excel color palette screwed up). I imagine googling Wikipedia annoying banners go away during the fundraising period would get someone the proper instructions. While I am not technical by any standards amoung Wikipedians, I am the causal go-to technical person among my family and office. So I don't know how common my methods might be among non-editors. But maybe word of mouth of from those that like me that are unafraid of their technical ignorance to the complete Luddites (that ask such people for help with disappearing email when they accidentally minimize Outlook or dismiss the preview pane) could account for the spreading these instructions. Also some sites (I think Twitter is one) display very differently to people with or without accounts. So some people may have a habit of signing up at all of the websites they regularly consume. Birgitte SB ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
There's a parallel talk into it chapter about gender gap. This gap is part of a larger gap involving software development in general; there are few programmer women. I presume, that this highlights a similarity between wiki and a software development environment; and really many from most enthusiast, and productive contributors are too programmers. But... as you know, the profile of a programmer is far from the profile of a woman; consider the famous statement The three chief virtues of a programmer are: Laziness, Impatience and Hubris.. Then consider the pedia statement Be bold!, that is a gentler way to name hubris. :-) Is gender gap so mysterious? Alex I would disagree with Be Bold = Hubris I have always thought Be Bold as being about being comfortable with making mistakes. I certainly would consider myself bold in general and more bold than the average woman in practical terms on the wiki, but I still very much feel the Midwestern US taboo against thinking too well of oneself and self-promoting which hubris should overcome. In my experience boldness comes from a different place; that of having a trial and error mentality to approaching the world in general. But I suppose boldness could come from thinking oneself superior also. On 02/09/2011 11:18 PM, DaB. wrote: sure. I asked the toolserver-database: en.wikipedia: Male: 233312 Femaile: 46973 All user: 13959842 snip Now, if a woman uses a male pseudonym, she would obviously self-declare as a man, so we can't know if this correlates to real gender. We could only measure the setting. I would hesitate to judge what might be a male pseudonym. In my experience any pseudonym, given it is not displayed in pink or the userpage is not covered in hearts or something, will be treated as male. I never intended to self-declare as male, but was treated as male for many years. I did consciously decide to accept what I perceived as the benefits of being treated as male and not correct anyone. When someone years ago raised the argument that the lack of visibly female Wikipedians might be a barrier to larger numbers of women joining Wikipedia, I changed the coloring of my signature and don't remember being treated as male since then. Birgitte SB ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
Lars Aronsson wrote: Platonides wrote: And many don't even perform one edit. As I don't believe so many people create them just to change their preferences, it is a mistery for me why do they do so. Becoming an active wikipedian is a process in many steps, each involving a large amount of hesitation. Does this article really need improvement? Can I fix it? Should I fix it? Do I know how to edit? Do I have the time right now? Should I register? After having improved the text, should I really press save, or should I just quit and forget about it? Maybe we have a million readers, and only 10% think the article needs improvement, only 10% of them think they could fix it, etc. We are losing people in every step of hesitation from reader to active contributor. It is really irrelevant in which step we lose them. We may have a million readers and we get a hundred contributors. These might be 100 out of 1,000 registered users or 100 out of 10,000 who thought about registering, or 100 out of 5,000 who went half-way through registration. The constant is 100 and the other number is quite arbitrary. Any statistic based on that arbitrary number is bound to be bad math. There's good math to be had for the digging. Can you envision a leaky pipeline starting with the mass of readers' first visits to WP and the terminus at long-term editors. Something along the lines of https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kaplan%E2%80%93Meier_estimator seems appropriate, maybe someone can pick a more optimistic analogy. At each new obstacle the cohort shrinks. If it was possible to interest someone with statistical training to assemble actual data, I imagine it would be useful and entertaining. It might have to be collected prospectively. Would wiki-research-l be a better forum for this? -- Charles Polisher ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
2011/2/10 Andrew Garrett agarr...@wikimedia.org: That's not accurate. Aggregate preference data is available to toolserver users — the view omits the user ID field. The view of which table? Running SHOW TABLES; on enwiki_p, I don't see user_properties or anything else that looks like it might contain preferences data. Roan Kattouw (Catrope) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
prefstats maybe? On Feb 10, 2011, at 8:17 AM, Roan Kattouw wrote: 2011/2/10 Andrew Garrett agarr...@wikimedia.org: That's not accurate. Aggregate preference data is available to toolserver users — the view omits the user ID field. The view of which table? Running SHOW TABLES; on enwiki_p, I don't see user_properties or anything else that looks like it might contain preferences data. Roan Kattouw (Catrope) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
2011/2/10 Soxred93 soxre...@gmail.com: prefstats maybe? Yeah, that would contain some data, but only for the skin and usebetatoolbar preferences. Roan Kattouw (Catrope) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
Hoi, For English asking the gender or our readers, editors is not useful. For Slavic languages it is. The localisers at translatewiki.net actively incorporate the difference in addressing in their work. If you want to optimise the results, we can advertise the fact why we ask people's gender. Thanks, Gerard On 10 February 2011 13:53, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 February 2011 06:06, Dmitriy Sintsov ques...@rambler.ru wrote: * M. Williamson node...@gmail.com [Wed, 9 Feb 2011 17:29:06 -0700]: Would it be possible to get this information for es.wp and sv.wp? There should be one table with all lang.wp and a column with male to female ratio. Since the vast majority of users apparently don't specify, that data wouldn't be very useful. It's only useful if can justify the assumption that people that specify have the same gender ratio as the general population (which could easily not be true - for example, women may choose not to specify because they don't want to be singled out for special treatment [insert obligatory xkcd reference here - I'm at work so I won't go hunting for it, but you know the one I mean] so the ratio for people that do specify would overestimate the number of men). Could we get the proportion of users with more than 10 edits that specify? It's possible that is significantly higher than for all users, in which case we could get some useful numbers for those users. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
For English asking the gender or our readers, editors is not useful. For
Slavic languages it is. The localisers at translatewiki.net actively
+ {{support}} :-)
Make a note that Slavic languages still need to resolve some important issues:
* https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17160 [Add ability to
show feminine version of User: in female users' user pages' titles]
* https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24156 [Messages of
log enteries should support GENDER]
--
Leinad
___
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
Sage Ross wrote: On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Howie Fung hf...@wikimedia.org wrote: Just making sure I understand the data below. I'm assuming this means there are 13,959,842 total accounts in the English Wikipedia? Interesting because there are a total of 651,652 cumulative New Wikipedians (users with =10 lifetime edits) as of Dec 2010. Which would mean that only 4.7% of all registered accounts qualify to be considered New Wikipedian, so the vast majority of our accounts are for readers? Yep, that lines up about right with my understanding of the editor activity distribution. When someone starts editing, they are very likely to stop after one edit. -Sage And many don't even perform one edit. As I don't believe so many people create them just to change their preferences, it is a mistery for me why do they do so. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
Perhaps this list is a better place for this question (got no answer on gendergap list): On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences, you can specify a gender. Do we collect these data? -Ole -- http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Ole Palnatoke Andersen palnat...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps this list is a better place for this question (got no answer on gendergap list): On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences, you can specify a gender. Do we collect these data? Preferences are stored in the database, so... yes? The gender preference is for grammatical purposes in user-interface messages, and defaults to a neutral form. -- brion ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
Awesome! Thanks! On 2/9/11 2:18 PM, DaB. wrote: Hello, Am Mittwoch 09 Februar 2011, 22:38:20 schrieb Brandon Harris: Is it possible to get a single aggregate report, just so that we have a little data to work with on the gender gap list? sure. I asked the toolserver-database: en.wikipedia: Male: 233312 Femaile: 46973 All user: 13959842 de.wikipedia: Male: 35726 Female: 4800 All user: 1167708 fr.wikipedia: Male: 18556 Female: 3054 All user: 998668 commons: Male: 27980 Female: 5070 All user: 1464442 Say if you need more data. Sincerly, DaB. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
Would it be possible to get this information for es.wp and sv.wp? Thanks 2011/2/9 DaB. w...@daniel.baur4.info: Hello, Am Mittwoch 09 Februar 2011, 23:36:12 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, I would be interested in learning sr and ru. sr.wikipedia: Male: 1666 Femaile: 414 All user: 78180 ru.wikipedia: Male: 80491 Femaile: 23750 All user: 620393 pl.wikipedia: Male: 12106 Femaile: 2999 All user: 414511 (nl.wikipedia – somebody asked in IRC): Male: 8977 Femaile: 1781 All user: 368815 I understand that for these languages the gender actually matters in the presentation in the user interface. Thanks, GerardM Good night, DaB. -- Userpage: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]] — PGP: 2B255885 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 10:36 PM, Roan Kattouw roan.katt...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/2/9 Ole Palnatoke Andersen palnat...@gmail.com: Are the numbers available on a per-wiki basis, so we can point to them and say so-and-so many percent of our users self-identify as male, female, and none-of-your-business, respectively? They're available to sysadmins only, because preferences are private data. Aggregate data about preferences is not currently published in an automated fashion. That's not accurate. Aggregate preference data is available to toolserver users — the view omits the user ID field. -- Andrew Garrett http://werdn.us/ ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
Just making sure I understand the data below. I'm assuming this means there are 13,959,842 total accounts in the English Wikipedia? Interesting because there are a total of 651,652 cumulative New Wikipedians (users with =10 lifetime edits) as of Dec 2010. Which would mean that only 4.7% of all registered accounts qualify to be considered New Wikipedian, so the vast majority of our accounts are for readers? Howie On 2/9/11 2:18 PM, DaB. wrote: Hello, Am Mittwoch 09 Februar 2011, 22:38:20 schrieb Brandon Harris: Is it possible to get a single aggregate report, just so that we have a little data to work with on the gender gap list? sure. I asked the toolserver-database: en.wikipedia: Male: 233312 Femaile: 46973 All user: 13959842 de.wikipedia: Male: 35726 Female: 4800 All user: 1167708 fr.wikipedia: Male: 18556 Female: 3054 All user: 998668 commons: Male: 27980 Female: 5070 All user: 1464442 Say if you need more data. Sincerly, DaB. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Gender preference
On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Howie Fung hf...@wikimedia.org wrote: Just making sure I understand the data below. I'm assuming this means there are 13,959,842 total accounts in the English Wikipedia? Interesting because there are a total of 651,652 cumulative New Wikipedians (users with =10 lifetime edits) as of Dec 2010. Which would mean that only 4.7% of all registered accounts qualify to be considered New Wikipedian, so the vast majority of our accounts are for readers? Yep, that lines up about right with my understanding of the editor activity distribution. When someone starts editing, they are very likely to stop after one edit. -Sage ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
