Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Marcin Cieslak]

On 2015-11-13, Runa Bhattacharjee  wrote:

> Specifics about this can be seen at:
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_translation/Machine_Translation/Yandex#Summary_of_terms_of_Yandex_agreement
>

Thanks! This is very helpful.

The link was already in the FAQ (although a bit buried in the text), I gave it 
a bit more exposure:

https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation%2FDocumentation%2FFAQ=revision=1939107=1936677

Thanks a lot!

Saper


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Zhou Zhou]

>
> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:21:15 +0530
> From: Runa Bhattacharjee <rbhattachar...@wikimedia.org>
> To: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?
> Message-ID:
> <
> cae7qtsq2l0ntmofdjuwbpmtnhj+r8etm6wqa+p+ft2+5w0o...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 12:58 AM, Marcin Cieslak <sa...@saper.info> wrote:
> >
> >
> > (How) are we going to meet this requirement?
> >
> >
> Hello,
> Specifics about this can be seen at:
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_translation/Machine_Translation/Yandex#Summary_of_terms_of_Yandex_agreement
> Thanks
> Runa
> --
> Language Engineering Manager
> Outreach and QA Coordinator
> Wikimedia Foundation


For those of you interested in this, you can take a look at the blog post
<https://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/11/11/content-translation-3-wikipedia-articles/>
announcing
our use of Yandex (It's in the "Improvements to machine translation"
section).  The post also provides links to various pages with more details
about this project, including the write-up of why we are using Yandex:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_translation/Documentation/FAQ#Yandex_is_not_based_on_open_source_software._Why_are_we_using_it.
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_translation/Documentation/FAQ#Yandex_is_not_based_on_open_source_software._Why_are_we_using_it.3F>

Among other things, our agreement allows us to maintain the CC license of
all translated content and we are not required to provide attribution to
Yandex like their TOU states.   Yandex is also not charging us for the
service.

Thanks,

Zhou


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Legal Counsel
Wikimedia Foundation
149 New Montgomery Street, 6th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94105
zz...@wikimedia.org

NOTICE: This message might have confidential or legally privileged
information in it. If you have received this message by accident, please
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Runa Bhattacharjee]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 12:58 AM, Marcin Cieslak  wrote:
>
>
> (How) are we going to meet this requirement?
>
>
Hello,

Specifics about this can be seen at:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_translation/Machine_Translation/Yandex#Summary_of_terms_of_Yandex_agreement

Thanks
Runa

-- 
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Outreach and QA Coordinator
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Marcin Cieslak]

On 2015-11-11, Luis Villa  wrote:
> I haven't been directly involved in a while, but we were certainly not
> paying Yandex last time I looked at the arrangement. Appropriate legal
> steps were also taken to protect the licensing of the content, and
> appropriate technical steps to protect PII of editors, among other things.

It looks like the Yandex translation API is free for up to 1 million codepoints
a day and 10 million a month. They also say the service is made
available for personal, non-commercial use only.

They terms and conditions also require software description, help pages and
that pages which use the result of the translation display hyperlinked
notice http://translate.yandex.ru/;>Переведено сервисом 
«Яндекс.Переводчик»

(How) are we going to meet this requirement?

Saper

https://yandex.ru/legal/translate_api/ API ToS
https://yandex.ru/legal/translate_termsofuse/ General Yandex Translate ToS


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Luis Villa]

Sorry, fell back into lawyer mode - specifically, PII is "personally 
identifiable information" - in our case, usually IP addresses. A badly designed 
system could send that to the translation system, but we didn't do that - 
Yandex does not have access to it, so they know nothing about the editors who 
use the system. 


Sorry I was unclear, and thanks to the person who sent me a personal note 
asking for clarification! 
Luis







— Snt frm a dvice

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Luis Villa  wrote:

> I haven't been directly involved in a while, but we were certainly not
> paying Yandex last time I looked at the arrangement. Appropriate legal
> steps were also taken to protect the licensing of the content, and
> appropriate technical steps to protect PII of editors, among other things.
> FWIW-
> Luis
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:12 PM, C. Scott Ananian 
> wrote:
>> According to my listening of that Metrics meeting, it does seem like
>> WMF is going to have to pay Yandex for using its service.  But as you
>> say, that doesn't infect the actual translation text, which goes into
>> wikipedia and extends the free content available for everyone.
>>  --scott
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:31 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
>> wrote:
>> > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:47 AM, Legoktm 
>> wrote:
>> >> On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote:
>> >>> On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
>>  Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:
>> > I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are
>> there
>> > more details about what this means?
>> 
>>  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found
>> >>> <
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Talk:Content_translation/Specification/Yandex_backend
>> >.
>> >>>
>> >>> So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party,
>> >>> closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the
>> >>> case? What data is being sent?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here,
>> >> which is disappointing.
>> >>
>> >> [1]
>> >>
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentation/FAQ=1935992=1780766
>> >
>> > As the user is isolated from the communication with Yandex , I don't
>> > see it as a huge problem.  Using Qualtrics seems to be a much more
>> > serious problem, and nobody seems to care about that.
>> >
>> > Yandex is sort of similar to a "MP4 upload only" support, only without
>> > the patent concerns.  Relying on it comes at the risk that the service
>> > stops, but the free content created is not infected.  More likely,
>> > Yandex will start asking WMF for money, and WMF decides to pay because
>> > it is 'easier' than terminating using the service.
>> >
>> > Anyway, I've added it to
>> >
>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Open_source
>> >
>> > --
>> > John Vandenberg
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Wikitech-l mailing list
>> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> (http://cscott.net)
>>
>> ___
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>>
> -- 
> Luis Villa
> Sr. Director of Community Engagement
> Wikimedia Foundation
> *Working towards a world in which every single human being can freely share
> in the sum of all knowledge.*
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Legoktm]

On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote:
> On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
>> Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:
>>> I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are there
>>> more details about what this means?
>>
>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think
> 
> Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found
> .
> 
> So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party,
> closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the
> case? What data is being sent?
> 

It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here,
which is disappointing.

[1]
https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentation/FAQ=1935992=1780766

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[C. Scott Ananian]

Transcribing from the last Metrics Meeting (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePV-7nhO-z0 around minute 54, and then
more specifically in response to a question at 55:35): "We have
apertium running... we are going to add the yandex service... we found
out that different languages have different translation tools... so it
really depends on which language pairs ... we are looking for *many*
plugin [backends]."

Cc'ing Santhosh, who was the presenter.

Hope that helps.
 --scott

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:47 PM, Legoktm  wrote:
> On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote:
>> On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
>>> Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:
 I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are there
 more details about what this means?
>>>
>>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think
>>
>> Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found
>> .
>>
>> So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party,
>> closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the
>> case? What data is being sent?
>>
>
> It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here,
> which is disappointing.
>
> [1]
> https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentation/FAQ=1935992=1780766
>
> -- Legoktm
>
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-- 
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[John Mark Vandenberg]

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:47 AM, Legoktm  wrote:
> On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote:
>> On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
>>> Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:
 I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are there
 more details about what this means?
>>>
>>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think
>>
>> Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found
>> .
>>
>> So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party,
>> closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the
>> case? What data is being sent?
>>
>
> It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here,
> which is disappointing.
>
> [1]
> https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentation/FAQ=1935992=1780766

As the user is isolated from the communication with Yandex , I don't
see it as a huge problem.  Using Qualtrics seems to be a much more
serious problem, and nobody seems to care about that.

Yandex is sort of similar to a "MP4 upload only" support, only without
the patent concerns.  Relying on it comes at the risk that the service
stops, but the free content created is not infected.  More likely,
Yandex will start asking WMF for money, and WMF decides to pay because
it is 'easier' than terminating using the service.

Anyway, I've added it to

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Open_source

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[C. Scott Ananian]

According to my listening of that Metrics meeting, it does seem like
WMF is going to have to pay Yandex for using its service.  But as you
say, that doesn't infect the actual translation text, which goes into
wikipedia and extends the free content available for everyone.
 --scott

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:31 PM, John Mark Vandenberg  wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:47 AM, Legoktm  wrote:
>> On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote:
>>> On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
 Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:
> I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are there
> more details about what this means?

 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think
>>>
>>> Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found
>>> .
>>>
>>> So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party,
>>> closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the
>>> case? What data is being sent?
>>>
>>
>> It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here,
>> which is disappointing.
>>
>> [1]
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentation/FAQ=1935992=1780766
>
> As the user is isolated from the communication with Yandex , I don't
> see it as a huge problem.  Using Qualtrics seems to be a much more
> serious problem, and nobody seems to care about that.
>
> Yandex is sort of similar to a "MP4 upload only" support, only without
> the patent concerns.  Relying on it comes at the risk that the service
> stops, but the free content created is not infected.  More likely,
> Yandex will start asking WMF for money, and WMF decides to pay because
> it is 'easier' than terminating using the service.
>
> Anyway, I've added it to
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Open_source
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
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-- 
(http://cscott.net)

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Luis Villa]

I haven't been directly involved in a while, but we were certainly not
paying Yandex last time I looked at the arrangement. Appropriate legal
steps were also taken to protect the licensing of the content, and
appropriate technical steps to protect PII of editors, among other things.

FWIW-
Luis

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:12 PM, C. Scott Ananian 
wrote:

> According to my listening of that Metrics meeting, it does seem like
> WMF is going to have to pay Yandex for using its service.  But as you
> say, that doesn't infect the actual translation text, which goes into
> wikipedia and extends the free content available for everyone.
>  --scott
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:31 PM, John Mark Vandenberg 
> wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:47 AM, Legoktm 
> wrote:
> >> On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote:
> >>> On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
>  Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:
> > I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are
> there
> > more details about what this means?
> 
>  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found
> >>> <
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Talk:Content_translation/Specification/Yandex_backend
> >.
> >>>
> >>> So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party,
> >>> closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the
> >>> case? What data is being sent?
> >>>
> >>
> >> It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here,
> >> which is disappointing.
> >>
> >> [1]
> >>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentation/FAQ=1935992=1780766
> >
> > As the user is isolated from the communication with Yandex , I don't
> > see it as a huge problem.  Using Qualtrics seems to be a much more
> > serious problem, and nobody seems to care about that.
> >
> > Yandex is sort of similar to a "MP4 upload only" support, only without
> > the patent concerns.  Relying on it comes at the risk that the service
> > stops, but the free content created is not infected.  More likely,
> > Yandex will start asking WMF for money, and WMF decides to pay because
> > it is 'easier' than terminating using the service.
> >
> > Anyway, I've added it to
> >
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Open_source
> >
> > --
> > John Vandenberg
> >
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
> --
> (http://cscott.net)
>
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-- 
Luis Villa
Sr. Director of Community Engagement
Wikimedia Foundation
*Working towards a world in which every single human being can freely share
in the sum of all knowledge.*
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Gergő Tisza]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Legoktm legoktm.wikipe...@gmail.com
wrote:

 I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this
 is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the
 Wikimedia projects land?


Translatewiki has been using Yandex for a while (and used Google while it
was available, and a third one I can't remember right now).
Not sure if it counts as a Wikimedia project or not.

We also use MaxMind for geolocation, which is I believe free software using
a proprietary database.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Ricordisamoa]

Il 02/07/2015 21:55, Legoktm ha scritto:

I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this
is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the
Wikimedia projects land?


Also Qualtrics 
https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Bar/Archivio/2013.10#Sondaggio_su_Wikisource




-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[David Gerard]

On 2 July 2015 at 20:55, Legoktm legoktm.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote:

 I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this
 is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the
 Wikimedia projects land?


[not actually relevant, but since you ask ...]

First would have been Java, back when that was non-free - with Lucene
running on it as a search engine. Then someone ported Lucene to C# so
we used that version on Mono (an all-free stack in copyright terms at
least), then Sun promised to free Java so we adopted Java before it
was actually free but while the process was underway. I recall Sun
also donated some Solaris 10 SPARC boxes which were used for various
non-core purposes. This is all off the top of my head and I welcome
historical correction.


- d.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Jackmcbarn]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Legoktm legoktm.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote:

 So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party,
 closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the
 case? What data is being sent?

 I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this
 is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the
 Wikimedia projects land?

All of those questions concern me. I'm 100% against any sort of integration
with any proprietary software or service. This really needs more notice and
wider discussion.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Dan Garry]

On 2 July 2015 at 12:55, Legoktm legoktm.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote:

 I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this
 is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the
 Wikimedia projects land?


The iOS app uses system libraries provided by the iOS SDK for a variety of
essential functions, and obviously both the devices and the technology
stack are proprietary. That's just the price we pay for wanting to be part
of that ecosystem. The app and all the non-system third party libraries it
uses (i.e. anything we reasonably have control over) are open source.

The Android app is the same as the iOS app, except the Android operating
system is open source and published under the Apache licence. That said,
Android devices typically ship with proprietary software installed on them
which the app does use, such as Google Play which is used for delivery of
the application to most users.

Dan

-- 
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Product Manager, Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

FYI https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_projects has a list; it 
means the wikis themselves (MediaWiki), not stuff around them.


Nemo

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Legoktm]

On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:
 Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:
 I noticed: Yandex coming up soon! under ContentTranslation. Are there
 more details about what this means?
 
 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think

Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Talk:Content_translation/Specification/Yandex_backend.

So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party,
closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the
case? What data is being sent?

I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this
is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the
Wikimedia projects land?

-- Legoktm

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Yandex?

[Ricordisamoa]

Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:

On 07/01/2015 11:29 AM, Grace Gellerman wrote:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Scrum_of_scrums/2015-07-01

I noticed: Yandex coming up soon! under ContentTranslation. Are there
more details about what this means?

-- Legoktm


https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think

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[Wikitech-l] Yandex? (was: 2015-07-01 Scrum of Scrums notes)

[Legoktm]

On 07/01/2015 11:29 AM, Grace Gellerman wrote:
 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Scrum_of_scrums/2015-07-01

I noticed: Yandex coming up soon! under ContentTranslation. Are there
more details about what this means?

-- Legoktm

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