Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Trey Jones]

Thanks for the technical details, Bartosz!

One would hope (but should confirm) that link prefixes are treated with the
same basic logic as link postfixes/trails, so assuming pre- and post-link
trails are enabled, "pre[[target]]post" is all linked, but
"pre[[target|linktext]]post" is only linked on "linktext", and intermediate
cases can be spelled out as "[[target|pre+target]]post" or
"pre[[target|target+post]]".

Overall, it sounds like reasonable default shortcut behavior that can
easily be overridden with a fully-specified link.

Sounds like a cute small syntax improvement! :)


Exactly!

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Bartosz Dziewoński 
wrote:

> On 2018-10-15 16:34, Trey Jones wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure how much impact it would have on existing link specifications
>> to make the change, but I think MGChecker has a good solution. The
>> "[[target|linktext]]extra" format allows you to specify exactly what part
>> of the text should have a link, while "[[target]]extra" would be
>> understood
>> as a shortcut to "[[target|targetextra]]". This solves the linktrails
>> problem without introducing any extra tags or using nowiki in weird ways.
>>
>
> Sounds like a cute small syntax improvement! :)
>
>
> Are their any other linktrails setting other than off and on? We'd want to
>> make sure any changes didn't do weird things to Chinese or other spaceless
>> languages.
>>
>
> There are two things to consider:
>
> * Linktrails are language-specific. For example, in English, only ASCII
> a-z are handled in linktrails, while Polish also allows accented letters
> ęóąśłżźćńĘÓĄŚŁŻŹĆŃ. Chinese actually effectively disables linktrails
> (disallows everything). This is defined using $linkTrail variables in files
> like MessagesEn.php etc.
>
> * There is also something called "linkprefix", used by e.g. Arabic
> (MessagesAr.php uses $linkPrefixExtension = true). I am not sure how this
> feature works, but it probably complicates everything a bit.
>
> --
> Bartosz Dziewoński
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Bartosz Dziewoński]

On 2018-10-15 16:34, Trey Jones wrote:

I'm not sure how much impact it would have on existing link specifications
to make the change, but I think MGChecker has a good solution. The
"[[target|linktext]]extra" format allows you to specify exactly what part
of the text should have a link, while "[[target]]extra" would be understood
as a shortcut to "[[target|targetextra]]". This solves the linktrails
problem without introducing any extra tags or using nowiki in weird ways.


Sounds like a cute small syntax improvement! :)



Are their any other linktrails setting other than off and on? We'd want to
make sure any changes didn't do weird things to Chinese or other spaceless
languages.


There are two things to consider:

* Linktrails are language-specific. For example, in English, only ASCII 
a-z are handled in linktrails, while Polish also allows accented letters 
ęóąśłżźćńĘÓĄŚŁŻŹĆŃ. Chinese actually effectively disables linktrails 
(disallows everything). This is defined using $linkTrail variables in 
files like MessagesEn.php etc.


* There is also something called "linkprefix", used by e.g. Arabic 
(MessagesAr.php uses $linkPrefixExtension = true). I am not sure how 
this feature works, but it probably complicates everything a bit.


--
Bartosz Dziewoński

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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Trey Jones]

I'm not sure how much impact it would have on existing link specifications
to make the change, but I think MGChecker has a good solution. The
"[[target|linktext]]extra" format allows you to specify exactly what part
of the text should have a link, while "[[target]]extra" would be understood
as a shortcut to "[[target|targetextra]]". This solves the linktrails
problem without introducing any extra tags or using nowiki in weird ways.

Looking at some examples in this thread:

   - [[Schnee]]reichtum would be [[Schnee|Schnee]]reichtum
   - [[Gesetz]]e and [[Finger]]s are fine
   - [[Heimat]]losigkeit is fine
   - [[absorpsjon]]s[[Spektrallinje|linjene]] might work as intended, but
   if the middle "s" isn't supposed to be linked then [[Absorpsjon|
   absorpsjon]]s[[Spektrallinje|linjene]] would do the trick
   - ma[[Øssur Havgrímsson|ge]]e[[Øssur Havgrímsson|evner og]] is
   still something of a mystery, but ma[[Øssur Havgrímsson|ge]]e[[Øssur
   Havgrímsson|evner og]] would probably do what is intended
   - [[Alexander Kielland]]s would be [[Alexander Kielland|Alexander
   Kielland]]s
   - [[De forente nasjoner|FN]]s would be fine

This isn't really about  anymore—sorry Amir!—but I think it could
solve the linktrails syntax issue. The problem, as I alluded to earlier, is
what changing the syntax would do to existing links. Though it would be
possible to automatically convert existing "[[target|linktext]]extra" to "
[[target|linktextextra]]" if target and linktext are different, or "
[[target]]extra" if target and linktext are the same (possibly modulo
whatever minor differences are allowed, like upper/lowercase—though there
are rare instances of articles that differ only by upper/lowercase).

Are their any other linktrails setting other than off and on? We'd want to
make sure any changes didn't do weird things to Chinese or other spaceless
languages.

—Trey

Trey Jones
Sr. Software Engineer, Search Platform
Wikimedia Foundation

On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 9:29 PM, MGChecker  wrote:

> > MZMcBrider wrote:
> > I'm not sure I understand. I would expect a link trail with
> "[[Examples|Example]]s" since there is a link trail with "[[Example]]s".
> > I'm not sure why anyone would associate link trail behavior with the
> presence or lack of a pipe character. The defining characteristic of link
> trails is text being adjacent to "]]", as far as I know.
>
> Yeah, currently there is a link trail with "[[Example]]s", but I neither
> consider this intuitive nor helpful. If I specify target and link text
> separately, why would I want a link trail? I could write it as part of the
> target instead. I think for most people writing something like
> [[Examples|Example]]s is the first thing they try to avoid link trails. In
> my opinion, link trailing doesn't make anything easier if target and link
> text are specified separately. To be clear: I propose to change the current
> parser behavior to avoid unwanted link trails.
>
> > Is the particular case you mention common? It seems like it would be
> much more common for a user to simply write "[[Examples]]" currently to
> achieve the same output.
>
> As the case I mentioned shouldn't be common and clearly more complicated
> as needed, I think a behavior change wouldn't have that much impact.
>
> Regards,
> MGChecker
>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[MGChecker]

> MZMcBrider wrote:
> I'm not sure I understand. I would expect a link trail with 
> "[[Examples|Example]]s" since there is a link trail with "[[Example]]s".
> I'm not sure why anyone would associate link trail behavior with the presence 
> or lack of a pipe character. The defining characteristic of link trails is 
> text being adjacent to "]]", as far as I know.

Yeah, currently there is a link trail with "[[Example]]s", but I neither 
consider this intuitive nor helpful. If I specify target and link text 
separately, why would I want a link trail? I could write it as part of the 
target instead. I think for most people writing something like 
[[Examples|Example]]s is the first thing they try to avoid link trails. In my 
opinion, link trailing doesn't make anything easier if target and link text are 
specified separately. To be clear: I propose to change the current parser 
behavior to avoid unwanted link trails.

> Is the particular case you mention common? It seems like it would be much 
> more common for a user to simply write "[[Examples]]" currently to achieve 
> the same output.

As the case I mentioned shouldn't be common and clearly more complicated as 
needed, I think a behavior change wouldn't have that much impact.

Regards,
MGChecker


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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[MZMcBride]

MGChecker wrote:
>> Links using the pipe-form should not have the link target inflected.
>>This is important, as this is the natural escape route if inflection
>>gives wrong target for whatever reason.
>
>This is what I think is particularly odd about linktrails: Why do links
>like [[Examples|Example]]s have a linktrail? I wouldn't expect it and I
>don't think anyone would, on the contrary I still remember discovering
>this really weird behavior years ago.

I'm not sure I understand. I would expect a link trail with
"[[Examples|Example]]s" since there is a link trail with "[[Example]]s".
I'm not sure why anyone would associate link trail behavior with the
presence or lack of a pipe character. The defining characteristic of link
trails is text being adjacent to "]]", as far as I know.

Is the particular case you mention common? It seems like it would be much
more common for a user to simply write "[[Examples]]" currently to achieve
the same output.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[MGChecker]

Hi,

> Links using the pipe-form should not have the link target inflected. This is 
> important, as this is the natural escape route if inflection gives wrong 
> target for whatever reason.

This is what I think is particularly odd about linktrails: Why do links like 
[[Examples|Example]]s have a linktrail? I wouldn't expect it and I don't think 
anyone would, on the contrary I still remember discovering this really weird 
behavior years ago.

I know parser changes are difficult, but adding linktrails only to links 
without | seems like the easiest and expected solution for this whole problem 
to me, even if it isn't the most elegant one.

Regards,
MGChecker

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Wikitech-l [mailto:wikitech-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von 
John Erling Blad
Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Oktober 2018 20:48
An: Wikimedia developers
Betreff: Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of  in your language

In my opinion we should try to first process the whole linked phrase by 
inflection aka affix rules, and if that fails aka no link target can be found – 
then and only then should regexps form prefix and linktrails be applied. If 
applying prefix or linktrails creates a word that can be inflected, and it 
links to the same target, then move the strings into the linked phrase. If the 
link use the pipe-form, then move the strings into the second part of the link, 
aka the link text.

Links using the pipe-form should not have the link target inflected. This is 
important, as this is the natural escape route if inflection gives wrong target 
for whatever reason.

Inflected links should go to the target with the smallest difference. This is a 
non-trivial problem. We often link _phrases_ and those could be processed by 
several rules, each with some kind of weight rules. An edit distance would 
probably not be sufficient.

Perhaps most important; VisualEditor should not insert , if the users 
needs this escape route then let them do it themselves in WikitextEditor.


On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 6:17 PM Amir E. Aharoni 
wrote:

> ‫בתאריך יום ו׳, 5 באוק׳ 2018 ב-16:59 מאת ‪Dan Garry‬‏ <‪ 
> dga...@wikimedia.org ‬‏>:‬
> >
> > On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 23:29, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >
> > > Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of 
> > > errors
> are
> > > quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be 
> > > fixed
> in
> > > VE, but was told "no".
> > >
> >
> > I'd really appreciate it if you could give me more information on this.
>
> This is very frequent. I know that in the Hebrew Wikipedia it happens 
> up to 20 times a day (I actually counted this for many months), and 
> this is never intentional or desirable. Never, ever. 100% of cases. 
> The same must be true for many other languages, but probably not for 
> all. In wikis bigger than the Hebrew Wikipedia it probably happens 
> much more often than 20 times a day.
>
> It is possibly the most frequent reason for automatic insertion of 
>  tags (although this may be different by language).
>
> How does it happen? Several ways:
> * People add a word ending to an existing link. English has very few 
> word endings (-s, -ing, -ed, -able, and not much more), but many other 
> languages have more.
> * People highlight only a part of a word when they add a link, even 
> though they should have highlighted the whole word.
> * In particular, people highlight the part of the word without an ending.
> For example, "Dogs" is written, and people highlight "Dog".
> * People sometimes actually want to write two separate words and 
> forget to write a space. (This may sound silly, but I saw this 
> happening very often.)
> * People write a compound word and link a part of the word. Sometimes 
> it's intentional, although as we can see in other emails in this 
> thread not everybody agrees about the desirability of this. This works 
> very differently in different languages. German has a lot of them, 
> English has much less, Hebrew has almost zero.
>
> It's worth running proper user testing
>
> > Here's how the linking feature works right now for adding links to 
> > words which presently have no links:
> >
> >- If you put your cursor inside a word without highlighting anything,
> >and add a link, the link is added to the entire word.
> >- If you highlight some text, and add a link, the link is added to the
> >highlighted text.
>
> I know this, and I like how it works, but the fact is that there are 
> many other users who don't know this. Simply searching wikitext for 
> "]]" will show how often does this happen.
>
> > How would you propose this feature be changed?
>
> One possibility is to not add  aft

Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[C. Scott Ananian]

The relevant Parsoid feature request for having VE use linktrails is
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T50463 since in general Parsoid just
generates [[Book|books]] when VE gives it `books`.

If VE gives Parsoid `books` it will assume that's what
the author actually meant, and will generate `[[Book]]s` using a
very general mechanism used for a number of other syntax conflicts (like if
you actually want to start a line with the literal character `*`).

I don't think the answer is to invent new syntax for linktrail separation
-- we already have quite enough different ways of escaping and/or
token-breaking already, as partially enumerated in this thread already.
The only one I would be happy to faciliatate would be `-{}-` since it is
already an odd parser corner case -- it is parsed by the wikitext
preprocessor but then spit back out as literal text by the second parsing
phase unless LanguageConverter is enabled for the specific page language.
It would simplify the parse if the LanguageConverter constructs were
"always on" instead of being en/disabled on a page-by-page basis.
  --scott

On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 12:23 PM Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> ... And, more importantly, its form doesn't say "separate the trail from
> the link". Just like , it only *happened* to do it (I tried on
> Wikipedia, and it doesn't do it now).
>
> The point I'm trying to make in this thread is that  happens to do
> certain things other than showing wiki syntax without parsing, and is used
> for them as if it's *intended* for it, but this is a hack. If a certain
> functionality is needed, such as separating the trail from the link, then
> it's worth considering creating a piece of syntax for it.
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>
>
> ‫בתאריך יום א׳, 7 באוק׳ 2018 ב-19:08 מאת ‪bawolff‬‏ <‪bawolff...@gmail.com
> ‬‏>:‬
>
> > Alas, no longer valid in XML or HTML5. (Although HTML5 will still
> > parse it as an empty comment, but with a  "incorrectly-opened-comment"
> > error.
> >
> > --
> > Brian
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 6:57 AM Chad  wrote:
> > >
> > > Found it :)
> > >
> > > https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SGML/sgml-lex/sgml-lex
> > >
> > > Search for "empty comment declaration" :)
> > >
> > > -Chad
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 11:50 PM Chad  wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm personally a fan of .
> > > >
> > > > I came across it years ago--it's a null comment. Can't find the
> > reference
> > > > at the moment though.
> > > >
> > > > -Chad
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 2:25 PM Daniel Kinzler 
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> > > >> > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> > > >> > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the
> same:
> > > >> >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > > >> > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > > >> > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become
> "[[Bund]]estag".
> > > >>
> > > >> We could introduce new syntax for this, such as  or even
> > .
> > > >>
> > > >> Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does
> > nothing"?
> > > >> But if
> > > >> that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it
> expands
> > to
> > > >> nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing,
> right?
> > For
> > > >> better
> > > >> or worse...
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Daniel Kinzler
> > > >> Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
> > > >> Wikimedia Foundation
> > > >>
> > > >> ___
> > > >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > >> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > > >
> > > >
> > > On Oct 5, 2018 11:50 PM, "Chad"  wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm personally a fan of .
> > >
> > > I came across it years ago--it's a null comment. Can't find the
> reference
> > > at the moment though.
> > >
> > > -Chad
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 2:25 PM Daniel Kinzler 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> > > > > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> > > > > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the
> same:
> > > > >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > > > > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > > > > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become
> "[[Bund]]estag".
> > > >
> > > > We could introduce new syntax for this, such as  or even
> > .
> > > >
> > > > Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does
> > nothing"?
> > > > But if
> > > > that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands
> > to
> > > > nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right?
> > For
> > > > better
> > > > or worse...
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Daniel Kinzler
> > > > 

Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Amir E. Aharoni]

... And, more importantly, its form doesn't say "separate the trail from
the link". Just like , it only *happened* to do it (I tried on
Wikipedia, and it doesn't do it now).

The point I'm trying to make in this thread is that  happens to do
certain things other than showing wiki syntax without parsing, and is used
for them as if it's *intended* for it, but this is a hack. If a certain
functionality is needed, such as separating the trail from the link, then
it's worth considering creating a piece of syntax for it.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬


‫בתאריך יום א׳, 7 באוק׳ 2018 ב-19:08 מאת ‪bawolff‬‏ <‪bawolff...@gmail.com
‬‏>:‬

> Alas, no longer valid in XML or HTML5. (Although HTML5 will still
> parse it as an empty comment, but with a  "incorrectly-opened-comment"
> error.
>
> --
> Brian
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 6:57 AM Chad  wrote:
> >
> > Found it :)
> >
> > https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SGML/sgml-lex/sgml-lex
> >
> > Search for "empty comment declaration" :)
> >
> > -Chad
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 11:50 PM Chad  wrote:
> >
> > > I'm personally a fan of .
> > >
> > > I came across it years ago--it's a null comment. Can't find the
> reference
> > > at the moment though.
> > >
> > > -Chad
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 2:25 PM Daniel Kinzler 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> > >> > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> > >> > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> > >> >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > >> > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > >> > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
> > >>
> > >> We could introduce new syntax for this, such as  or even
> .
> > >>
> > >> Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does
> nothing"?
> > >> But if
> > >> that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands
> to
> > >> nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right?
> For
> > >> better
> > >> or worse...
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Daniel Kinzler
> > >> Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
> > >> Wikimedia Foundation
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> > >> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > >
> > On Oct 5, 2018 11:50 PM, "Chad"  wrote:
> >
> > I'm personally a fan of .
> >
> > I came across it years ago--it's a null comment. Can't find the reference
> > at the moment though.
> >
> > -Chad
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 2:25 PM Daniel Kinzler 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> > > > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> > > > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> > > >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > > > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > > > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
> > >
> > > We could introduce new syntax for this, such as  or even
> .
> > >
> > > Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does
> nothing"?
> > > But if
> > > that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands
> to
> > > nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right?
> For
> > > better
> > > or worse...
> > >
> > > --
> > > Daniel Kinzler
> > > Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
> > > Wikimedia Foundation
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[bawolff]

Alas, no longer valid in XML or HTML5. (Although HTML5 will still
parse it as an empty comment, but with a  "incorrectly-opened-comment"
error.

--
Brian


On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 6:57 AM Chad  wrote:
>
> Found it :)
>
> https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SGML/sgml-lex/sgml-lex
>
> Search for "empty comment declaration" :)
>
> -Chad
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 11:50 PM Chad  wrote:
>
> > I'm personally a fan of .
> >
> > I came across it years ago--it's a null comment. Can't find the reference
> > at the moment though.
> >
> > -Chad
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 2:25 PM Daniel Kinzler 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> >> > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> >> > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> >> >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> >> > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> >> > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
> >>
> >> We could introduce new syntax for this, such as  or even .
> >>
> >> Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does nothing"?
> >> But if
> >> that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands to
> >> nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right? For
> >> better
> >> or worse...
> >>
> >> --
> >> Daniel Kinzler
> >> Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
> >> Wikimedia Foundation
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> >
> On Oct 5, 2018 11:50 PM, "Chad"  wrote:
>
> I'm personally a fan of .
>
> I came across it years ago--it's a null comment. Can't find the reference
> at the moment though.
>
> -Chad
>
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 2:25 PM Daniel Kinzler  wrote:
>
> > Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> > > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> > > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> > >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
> >
> > We could introduce new syntax for this, such as  or even .
> >
> > Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does nothing"?
> > But if
> > that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands to
> > nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right? For
> > better
> > or worse...
> >
> > --
> > Daniel Kinzler
> > Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> >
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Chad]

Found it :)

https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/SGML/sgml-lex/sgml-lex

Search for "empty comment declaration" :)

-Chad

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 11:50 PM Chad  wrote:

> I'm personally a fan of .
>
> I came across it years ago--it's a null comment. Can't find the reference
> at the moment though.
>
> -Chad
>
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 2:25 PM Daniel Kinzler 
> wrote:
>
>> Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
>> > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
>> > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
>> >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
>> > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
>> > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
>>
>> We could introduce new syntax for this, such as  or even .
>>
>> Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does nothing"?
>> But if
>> that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands to
>> nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right? For
>> better
>> or worse...
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Kinzler
>> Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>
>> ___
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
On Oct 5, 2018 11:50 PM, "Chad"  wrote:

I'm personally a fan of .

I came across it years ago--it's a null comment. Can't find the reference
at the moment though.

-Chad

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 2:25 PM Daniel Kinzler  wrote:

> Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
>
> We could introduce new syntax for this, such as  or even .
>
> Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does nothing"?
> But if
> that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands to
> nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right? For
> better
> or worse...
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Chad]

I'm personally a fan of .

I came across it years ago--it's a null comment. Can't find the reference
at the moment though.

-Chad

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 2:25 PM Daniel Kinzler  wrote:

> Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
>
> We could introduce new syntax for this, such as  or even .
>
> Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does nothing"?
> But if
> that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands to
> nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right? For
> better
> or worse...
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[John Erling Blad]

In my opinion we should try to first process the whole linked phrase by
inflection aka affix rules, and if that fails aka no link target can be
found – then and only then should regexps form prefix and linktrails be
applied. If applying prefix or linktrails creates a word that can be
inflected, and it links to the same target, then move the strings into the
linked phrase. If the link use the pipe-form, then move the strings into
the second part of the link, aka the link text.

Links using the pipe-form should not have the link target inflected. This
is important, as this is the natural escape route if inflection gives wrong
target for whatever reason.

Inflected links should go to the target with the smallest difference. This
is a non-trivial problem. We often link _phrases_ and those could be
processed by several rules, each with some kind of weight rules. An edit
distance would probably not be sufficient.

Perhaps most important; VisualEditor should not insert , if the
users needs this escape route then let them do it themselves in
WikitextEditor.


On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 6:17 PM Amir E. Aharoni 
wrote:

> ‫בתאריך יום ו׳, 5 באוק׳ 2018 ב-16:59 מאת ‪Dan Garry‬‏ <‪
> dga...@wikimedia.org
> ‬‏>:‬
> >
> > On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 23:29, John Erling Blad  wrote:
> >
> > > Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors
> are
> > > quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed
> in
> > > VE, but was told "no".
> > >
> >
> > I'd really appreciate it if you could give me more information on this.
>
> This is very frequent. I know that in the Hebrew Wikipedia it happens up to
> 20 times a day (I actually counted this for many months), and this is never
> intentional or desirable. Never, ever. 100% of cases. The same must be true
> for many other languages, but probably not for all. In wikis bigger than
> the Hebrew Wikipedia it probably happens much more often than 20 times a
> day.
>
> It is possibly the most frequent reason for automatic insertion of 
> tags (although this may be different by language).
>
> How does it happen? Several ways:
> * People add a word ending to an existing link. English has very few word
> endings (-s, -ing, -ed, -able, and not much more), but many other languages
> have more.
> * People highlight only a part of a word when they add a link, even though
> they should have highlighted the whole word.
> * In particular, people highlight the part of the word without an ending.
> For example, "Dogs" is written, and people highlight "Dog".
> * People sometimes actually want to write two separate words and forget to
> write a space. (This may sound silly, but I saw this happening very often.)
> * People write a compound word and link a part of the word. Sometimes it's
> intentional, although as we can see in other emails in this thread not
> everybody agrees about the desirability of this. This works very
> differently in different languages. German has a lot of them, English has
> much less, Hebrew has almost zero.
>
> It's worth running proper user testing
>
> > Here's how the linking feature works right now for adding links to words
> > which presently have no links:
> >
> >- If you put your cursor inside a word without highlighting anything,
> >and add a link, the link is added to the entire word.
> >- If you highlight some text, and add a link, the link is added to the
> >highlighted text.
>
> I know this, and I like how it works, but the fact is that there are many
> other users who don't know this. Simply searching wikitext for
> "]]" will show how often does this happen.
>
> > How would you propose this feature be changed?
>
> One possibility is to not add  after a link. I proposed it, but it
> was declined: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T141689 . The declining
> comment links to T128060, which you mentioned in your email, and it's still
> not resolved.
>
> Other than fully stopping to do it, I cannot think of many other
> possibilities. Maybe we could show a warning, although I suspect that many
> users will ignore it or find it unnecessarily intrusive. I'm not a real
> designer, and it's possible that a real designer can come with something
> better.
>
> Another thing we could consider is to link the whole word *by default*, and
> to add another function that separates a link from the trail. I'd further
> suggest the separation be done internally not by "", but by some
> other syntax that looks more semantic, for example "{{#sep}}" (this should
> be a magic word and not a template!). My educated guess is that separating
> the word from the link is much less frequent than wanting to link the whole
> word. Part of my motivation for starting this thread was to understand how
> does this work in different languages.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[John Erling Blad]

T129778

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 3:59 PM Dan Garry  wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 23:29, John Erling Blad  wrote:
>
> > Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors are
> > quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed
> in
> > VE, but was told "no".
> >
>
> I'd really appreciate it if you could give me more information on this.
> Could you link to the task for this request? There is T128060
>  from early 2016 ("VisualEditor
> makes it easy to create partially linked words, when the user expects a
> fully linked one") but I don't see you on there, and I want to make sure I
> understand your request.
>
> Here's how the linking feature works right now for adding links to words
> which presently have no links:
>
>- If you put your cursor inside a word without highlighting anything,
>and add a link, the link is added to the entire word.
>- If you highlight some text, and add a link, the link is added to the
>highlighted text.
>
> How would you propose this feature be changed?
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Lead Product Manager, Editing
> Wikimedia Foundation
> ___
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> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Amir E. Aharoni]

‫בתאריך יום ו׳, 5 באוק׳ 2018 ב-16:59 מאת ‪Dan Garry‬‏ <‪dga...@wikimedia.org
‬‏>:‬
>
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 23:29, John Erling Blad  wrote:
>
> > Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors
are
> > quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed
in
> > VE, but was told "no".
> >
>
> I'd really appreciate it if you could give me more information on this.

This is very frequent. I know that in the Hebrew Wikipedia it happens up to
20 times a day (I actually counted this for many months), and this is never
intentional or desirable. Never, ever. 100% of cases. The same must be true
for many other languages, but probably not for all. In wikis bigger than
the Hebrew Wikipedia it probably happens much more often than 20 times a
day.

It is possibly the most frequent reason for automatic insertion of 
tags (although this may be different by language).

How does it happen? Several ways:
* People add a word ending to an existing link. English has very few word
endings (-s, -ing, -ed, -able, and not much more), but many other languages
have more.
* People highlight only a part of a word when they add a link, even though
they should have highlighted the whole word.
* In particular, people highlight the part of the word without an ending.
For example, "Dogs" is written, and people highlight "Dog".
* People sometimes actually want to write two separate words and forget to
write a space. (This may sound silly, but I saw this happening very often.)
* People write a compound word and link a part of the word. Sometimes it's
intentional, although as we can see in other emails in this thread not
everybody agrees about the desirability of this. This works very
differently in different languages. German has a lot of them, English has
much less, Hebrew has almost zero.

It's worth running proper user testing

> Here's how the linking feature works right now for adding links to words
> which presently have no links:
>
>- If you put your cursor inside a word without highlighting anything,
>and add a link, the link is added to the entire word.
>- If you highlight some text, and add a link, the link is added to the
>highlighted text.

I know this, and I like how it works, but the fact is that there are many
other users who don't know this. Simply searching wikitext for
"]]" will show how often does this happen.

> How would you propose this feature be changed?

One possibility is to not add  after a link. I proposed it, but it
was declined: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T141689 . The declining
comment links to T128060, which you mentioned in your email, and it's still
not resolved.

Other than fully stopping to do it, I cannot think of many other
possibilities. Maybe we could show a warning, although I suspect that many
users will ignore it or find it unnecessarily intrusive. I'm not a real
designer, and it's possible that a real designer can come with something
better.

Another thing we could consider is to link the whole word *by default*, and
to add another function that separates a link from the trail. I'd further
suggest the separation be done internally not by "", but by some
other syntax that looks more semantic, for example "{{#sep}}" (this should
be a magic word and not a template!). My educated guess is that separating
the word from the link is much less frequent than wanting to link the whole
word. Part of my motivation for starting this thread was to understand how
does this work in different languages.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Dan Garry]

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 23:29, John Erling Blad  wrote:

> Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors are
> quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed in
> VE, but was told "no".
>

I'd really appreciate it if you could give me more information on this.
Could you link to the task for this request? There is T128060
 from early 2016 ("VisualEditor
makes it easy to create partially linked words, when the user expects a
fully linked one") but I don't see you on there, and I want to make sure I
understand your request.

Here's how the linking feature works right now for adding links to words
which presently have no links:

   - If you put your cursor inside a word without highlighting anything,
   and add a link, the link is added to the entire word.
   - If you highlight some text, and add a link, the link is added to the
   highlighted text.

How would you propose this feature be changed?

Thanks,
Dan

-- 
Dan Garry
Lead Product Manager, Editing
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Gergo Tisza]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:25 PM Daniel Kinzler 
wrote:

> Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does nothing"?


Just make a template with a nice name ( {{~}} or something) and put the
nowiki in that.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[John Erling Blad]

Only thing more dangerous than running a bot on nowiki is running a bot on
dewiki.
Nope, newer touches dewiki.

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 12:49 AM Roul P.  wrote:

> Interesting, today this was topic in the German main forum:
>
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fragen_zur_Wikipedia#Anwendung_von__in_Bildunterschriften
>
> Today there are also more than one user indefinite blocked, which only
> removed  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Entgr%C3%A4ten40
>
> Am Fr., 5. Okt. 2018 um 00:29 Uhr schrieb John Erling Blad <
> jeb...@gmail.com
> >:
>
> > We have the same in Norwegian, but linking on part of a composite is
> almost
> > always wrong. Either you link on the whole composite or no part of the
> > composite. If you link on a part of a composite, then in nearly all
> cases I
> > have seen the link is placed on the wrong term.
> >
> > Some examples on what insanity users write
> > - [[absorpsjon]]s[[Spektrallinje|linjene]]
> > - [[Autentisering]]s[[Protokoll (datamaskiner)|protokollen]]
> > - [[Sykepleie|sykehjem]]s[[Hjemmesykepleie|omsorg]]
> >
> > From an article messed up by VE (yes it does mess up articles sometimes!)
> > - ma[[Øssur Havgrímsson|ge]]e[[Øssur Havgrímsson|evner og]]
> > - og[[Øssur Havgrímsson|i]]t[[Øssur Havgrímsson|det samme]]
> >
> > I have no clue what the previous means…
> >
> > Things like the following is quite common
> > - [[Alexander Kielland]]s
> > - [[De forente nasjoner|FN]]s
> >
> > Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors are
> > quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed
> in
> > VE, but was told "no".
> >
> > Anyhow I just started a bot to clean up some of the mess…
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM Thiemo Kreuz 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hey!
> > >
> > > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> > > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> > >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
> > >
> > > Not long ago  was often used. This became a problem with the
> > > recent parser updates. All  got replaced with , as far
> > > as I'm aware of.
> > >
> > > > in German, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on
> > dewiki,
> > > instead of using ``? What are cases where they *do* want the
> > link
> > > to include the entire word?
> > >
> > > The software feature exists because of English [[word ending]]s. The
> > > same exists in German ("viele [[Wiki]]s, viele [[Tisch]]e, viele
> > > [[Arbeit]]en"), but is overshadowed by the fact that German is a
> > > language with many composites. From my experience, the fact that all
> > > linktrails, no matter how long, become part of the link is almost
> > > always a problem. It enlarges the click region, which is good, but
> > > surprises the reader when he ends at an unexpected article. I guess it
> > > would actually be a net-gain when the feature gets turned off or tuned
> > > down in German wikis. For example, we could limit the length of the
> > > linktrail to 2 characters.
> > >
> > > Is somebody interested in creating usage statistics for these
> > > linktrails in the German Wikipedia main namespace?
> > >
> > > Best
> > > Thiemo
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> >
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verlinken#Verlinkung_von_Teilw%C3%B6rtern
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > ___
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> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Roul P.]

Interesting, today this was topic in the German main forum:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fragen_zur_Wikipedia#Anwendung_von__in_Bildunterschriften

Today there are also more than one user indefinite blocked, which only
removed  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Entgr%C3%A4ten40

Am Fr., 5. Okt. 2018 um 00:29 Uhr schrieb John Erling Blad :

> We have the same in Norwegian, but linking on part of a composite is almost
> always wrong. Either you link on the whole composite or no part of the
> composite. If you link on a part of a composite, then in nearly all cases I
> have seen the link is placed on the wrong term.
>
> Some examples on what insanity users write
> - [[absorpsjon]]s[[Spektrallinje|linjene]]
> - [[Autentisering]]s[[Protokoll (datamaskiner)|protokollen]]
> - [[Sykepleie|sykehjem]]s[[Hjemmesykepleie|omsorg]]
>
> From an article messed up by VE (yes it does mess up articles sometimes!)
> - ma[[Øssur Havgrímsson|ge]]e[[Øssur Havgrímsson|evner og]]
> - og[[Øssur Havgrímsson|i]]t[[Øssur Havgrímsson|det samme]]
>
> I have no clue what the previous means…
>
> Things like the following is quite common
> - [[Alexander Kielland]]s
> - [[De forente nasjoner|FN]]s
>
> Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors are
> quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed in
> VE, but was told "no".
>
> Anyhow I just started a bot to clean up some of the mess…
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM Thiemo Kreuz 
> wrote:
>
> > Hey!
> >
> > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
> >
> > Not long ago  was often used. This became a problem with the
> > recent parser updates. All  got replaced with , as far
> > as I'm aware of.
> >
> > > in German, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on
> dewiki,
> > instead of using ``? What are cases where they *do* want the
> link
> > to include the entire word?
> >
> > The software feature exists because of English [[word ending]]s. The
> > same exists in German ("viele [[Wiki]]s, viele [[Tisch]]e, viele
> > [[Arbeit]]en"), but is overshadowed by the fact that German is a
> > language with many composites. From my experience, the fact that all
> > linktrails, no matter how long, become part of the link is almost
> > always a problem. It enlarges the click region, which is good, but
> > surprises the reader when he ends at an unexpected article. I guess it
> > would actually be a net-gain when the feature gets turned off or tuned
> > down in German wikis. For example, we could limit the length of the
> > linktrail to 2 characters.
> >
> > Is somebody interested in creating usage statistics for these
> > linktrails in the German Wikipedia main namespace?
> >
> > Best
> > Thiemo
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verlinken#Verlinkung_von_Teilw%C3%B6rtern
> >
> > ___
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[John Erling Blad]

We have the same in Norwegian, but linking on part of a composite is almost
always wrong. Either you link on the whole composite or no part of the
composite. If you link on a part of a composite, then in nearly all cases I
have seen the link is placed on the wrong term.

Some examples on what insanity users write
- [[absorpsjon]]s[[Spektrallinje|linjene]]
- [[Autentisering]]s[[Protokoll (datamaskiner)|protokollen]]
- [[Sykepleie|sykehjem]]s[[Hjemmesykepleie|omsorg]]

From an article messed up by VE (yes it does mess up articles sometimes!)
- ma[[Øssur Havgrímsson|ge]]e[[Øssur Havgrímsson|evner og]]
- og[[Øssur Havgrímsson|i]]t[[Øssur Havgrímsson|det samme]]

I have no clue what the previous means…

Things like the following is quite common
- [[Alexander Kielland]]s
- [[De forente nasjoner|FN]]s

Usually it comes from user errors while using VE. This kind of errors are
quite common, and I asked (several years ago) whether it could be fixed in
VE, but was told "no".

Anyhow I just started a bot to clean up some of the mess…


On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM Thiemo Kreuz 
wrote:

> Hey!
>
> The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
>  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
>
> Not long ago  was often used. This became a problem with the
> recent parser updates. All  got replaced with , as far
> as I'm aware of.
>
> > in German, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on dewiki,
> instead of using ``? What are cases where they *do* want the link
> to include the entire word?
>
> The software feature exists because of English [[word ending]]s. The
> same exists in German ("viele [[Wiki]]s, viele [[Tisch]]e, viele
> [[Arbeit]]en"), but is overshadowed by the fact that German is a
> language with many composites. From my experience, the fact that all
> linktrails, no matter how long, become part of the link is almost
> always a problem. It enlarges the click region, which is good, but
> surprises the reader when he ends at an unexpected article. I guess it
> would actually be a net-gain when the feature gets turned off or tuned
> down in German wikis. For example, we could limit the length of the
> linktrail to 2 characters.
>
> Is somebody interested in creating usage statistics for these
> linktrails in the German Wikipedia main namespace?
>
> Best
> Thiemo
>
> [1]
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verlinken#Verlinkung_von_Teilw%C3%B6rtern
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[C. Scott Ananian]

-{}- is already commonly used on LanguageConverter wikis for "this is a
syntactic element but does nothing except separate a word".
The preprocessor already understands it on all wikis, as well.  (But then
we explicitly serialize it to literally `-{}-` if your content language
doesn't have variants defined.)
  --scott

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 5:25 PM Daniel Kinzler 
wrote:

> Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> > The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> > German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
> >  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> > better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> > example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
>
> We could introduce new syntax for this, such as  or even .
>
> Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does nothing"?
> But if
> that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands to
> nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right? For
> better
> or worse...
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Daniel Kinzler]

Am 04.10.2018 um 18:58 schrieb Thiemo Kreuz:
> The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
>  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".

We could introduce new syntax for this, such as  or even .

Or how about {{}} for "this is a syntactic element, but it does nothing"? But if
that is mixed in with template expansion, it won't work if it expands to
nothing, since template expansion happens before link parsing, right? For better
or worse...

-- 
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Principal Software Engineer, MediaWiki Platform
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Daniel Kinzler]

Am 04.10.2018 um 18:24 schrieb Lucas Werkmeister:
> I’m not an expert on dewiki, but I assume they still want word-ending links
> for simple stuff like [[Gesetz]]e (plural), [[Finger]]s (genitive). I would
> guess these cases are still more common than the long compound words where
> the  trick is used.

Well, linktrail is a regex, it could be changed to only match up to a certain
length :)

But what length is tricky to decide, and the effect may be surprising /
unpredictable. Limiting it to one letter is certainly not enough, what with
about  [[Heimat]]losigkeit and such

All silliness aside: while dewiki has many uses for only linking part of a
compound, it has MANY MORE uses for linking all of it.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Bináris]

The problem with all anti-linktrail practices is that they make search (or
search and replace) in the source very hard. This relies both to bot owners
and humans who use the insource: regex search engine.
I think a brand new approach would be necessary.
For example, [[foo]]bar would behave as now, generate a linktrail, while
[[foo]|]bar (a pipe character between the ckets) not. Another idea would be
]]] (3 ckets), but it could conflict with embedded brackets suchs as an
image description with linked text.
Thus all antisemantic workarounds for avoiding linktrailing would be
unnecessary.
We should always keep in mind that we try to approach a semantic wiki
(although this is partial except Wikibase).
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Amir E. Aharoni]

I once wrote some very, very silly code that kind of works for Hebrew, and
could possibly be adapted to other languages:

https://github.com/amire80/znavot

Pull requests welcome :)


בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 19:59, מאת Thiemo Kreuz ‏<
thiemo.kr...@wikimedia.de>:

> Hey!
>
> The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
> German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
>  or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
> better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
> example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".
>
> Not long ago  was often used. This became a problem with the
> recent parser updates. All  got replaced with , as far
> as I'm aware of.
>
> > in German, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on dewiki,
> instead of using ``? What are cases where they *do* want the link
> to include the entire word?
>
> The software feature exists because of English [[word ending]]s. The
> same exists in German ("viele [[Wiki]]s, viele [[Tisch]]e, viele
> [[Arbeit]]en"), but is overshadowed by the fact that German is a
> language with many composites. From my experience, the fact that all
> linktrails, no matter how long, become part of the link is almost
> always a problem. It enlarges the click region, which is good, but
> surprises the reader when he ends at an unexpected article. I guess it
> would actually be a net-gain when the feature gets turned off or tuned
> down in German wikis. For example, we could limit the length of the
> linktrail to 2 characters.
>
> Is somebody interested in creating usage statistics for these
> linktrails in the German Wikipedia main namespace?
>
> Best
> Thiemo
>
> [1]
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verlinken#Verlinkung_von_Teilw%C3%B6rtern
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Thiemo Kreuz]

Hey!

The syntax "[[Schnee]]reichtum" is quite common in the
German community. There are not many other ways to achieve the same:
 or  can be used instead.[1] The later is often the
better alternative, but an auto-replacement is not possible. For
example, "[[Bund]]estag" must become "[[Bund]]estag".

Not long ago  was often used. This became a problem with the
recent parser updates. All  got replaced with , as far
as I'm aware of.

> in German, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on dewiki, 
> instead of using ``? What are cases where they *do* want the link to 
> include the entire word?

The software feature exists because of English [[word ending]]s. The
same exists in German ("viele [[Wiki]]s, viele [[Tisch]]e, viele
[[Arbeit]]en"), but is overshadowed by the fact that German is a
language with many composites. From my experience, the fact that all
linktrails, no matter how long, become part of the link is almost
always a problem. It enlarges the click region, which is good, but
surprises the reader when he ends at an unexpected article. I guess it
would actually be a net-gain when the feature gets turned off or tuned
down in German wikis. For example, we could limit the length of the
linktrail to 2 characters.

Is somebody interested in creating usage statistics for these
linktrails in the German Wikipedia main namespace?

Best
Thiemo

[1] 
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verlinken#Verlinkung_von_Teilw%C3%B6rtern

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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Lucas Werkmeister]

I’m not an expert on dewiki, but I assume they still want word-ending links
for simple stuff like [[Gesetz]]e (plural), [[Finger]]s (genitive). I would
guess these cases are still more common than the long compound words where
the  trick is used.

Am Do., 4. Okt. 2018 um 17:44 Uhr schrieb Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il>:

> I'm really not an expert on German. However, I have been slowly analyzing
> common trails in some other languages with purpose of doing smarter link
> trailing some day. It's a very crazy and long term pet project :) In
> theory, I could do it for German, too.
>
> בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 18:39, מאת C. Scott Ananian ‏<
> canan...@wikimedia.org>:
>
> >
> >
> https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grafikus_matroid=prev=20406147
> > illustrates another use: separating - and { in the unusual case where
> this
> > string is wanted and you *don't* want language converter markup.  ie
> > `-{foo}-` is different from `-{foo}-`.  You don't usually notice
> > this because languageconversion is disabled in many wikis, but it can
> cause
> > problems if unbalanced syntax is used inside a template argument, like:
> > `{{foo|-{bar}}`.  Here you need to use `{{foo|-{bar}}`, even if
> > LanguageConverter is not enabled.
> >
> > Amir -- in german, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on
> > dewiki, instead of using ``?  What are cases where they *do*
> want
> > the link to include the entire word?  Can they be automatically
> > distinguished?
> >  --scott
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:17 AM Bináris  wrote:
> >
> > > Here is a list of removals. :-)
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speci%C3%A1lis:Szerkeszt%C5%91_k%C3%B6zrem%C5%B1k%C3%B6d%C3%A9sei/BinBot=20180912205000=BinBot=28
> > >
> > >
> > > Amir E. Aharoni  ezt írta (időpont:
> 2018.
> > > okt. 4., Cs, 16:47):
> > >
> > > > Thanks. Can you please give some particular examples?
> > > >
> > > > בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 17:41, מאת Bináris ‏<
> wikipo...@gmail.com
> > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Amir E. Aharoni  ezt írta (időpont:
> > > 2018.
> > > > > okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This sentence shows the template used at the
> end.{{Citation
> > > > > > needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole
> > > > sentence|date=October
> > > > > > 2018}}
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However,  has less trivial use cases, that are not quite
> > the
> > > > same
> > > > > > as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is
> > linking
> > > a
> > > > > part
> > > > > > of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]] > > > > />reichtum".
> > > > > > It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack:
> the
> > > word
> > > > > > "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound
> words.
> > > This
> > > > > use
> > > > > > is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of
> > the
> > > > > German
> > > > > > language, which has a lot of long compound words.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just
> > decided
> > > to
> > > > > eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bináris
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > (http://cscott.net)
> > ___
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Software Developer (working student)

Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
Phone: +49 (0)30 219 158 26-0
https://wikimedia.de

Imagine a world, in which every single human being can freely share in the
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Amir E. Aharoni]

I'm really not an expert on German. However, I have been slowly analyzing
common trails in some other languages with purpose of doing smarter link
trailing some day. It's a very crazy and long term pet project :) In
theory, I could do it for German, too.

בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 18:39, מאת C. Scott Ananian ‏<
canan...@wikimedia.org>:

>
> https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grafikus_matroid=prev=20406147
> illustrates another use: separating - and { in the unusual case where this
> string is wanted and you *don't* want language converter markup.  ie
> `-{foo}-` is different from `-{foo}-`.  You don't usually notice
> this because languageconversion is disabled in many wikis, but it can cause
> problems if unbalanced syntax is used inside a template argument, like:
> `{{foo|-{bar}}`.  Here you need to use `{{foo|-{bar}}`, even if
> LanguageConverter is not enabled.
>
> Amir -- in german, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on
> dewiki, instead of using ``?  What are cases where they *do* want
> the link to include the entire word?  Can they be automatically
> distinguished?
>  --scott
>
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:17 AM Bináris  wrote:
>
> > Here is a list of removals. :-)
> >
> >
> https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speci%C3%A1lis:Szerkeszt%C5%91_k%C3%B6zrem%C5%B1k%C3%B6d%C3%A9sei/BinBot=20180912205000=BinBot=28
> >
> >
> > Amir E. Aharoni  ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
> > okt. 4., Cs, 16:47):
> >
> > > Thanks. Can you please give some particular examples?
> > >
> > > בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 17:41, מאת Bináris ‏ >:
> > >
> > > > Amir E. Aharoni  ezt írta (időpont:
> > 2018.
> > > > okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
> > > > > needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole
> > > sentence|date=October
> > > > > 2018}}
> > > > >
> > > > > However,  has less trivial use cases, that are not quite
> the
> > > same
> > > > > as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is
> linking
> > a
> > > > part
> > > > > of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]] > > > />reichtum".
> > > > > It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the
> > word
> > > > > "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words.
> > This
> > > > use
> > > > > is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of
> the
> > > > German
> > > > > language, which has a lot of long compound words.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just
> decided
> > to
> > > > eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Bináris
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[C. Scott Ananian]

https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grafikus_matroid=prev=20406147
illustrates another use: separating - and { in the unusual case where this
string is wanted and you *don't* want language converter markup.  ie
`-{foo}-` is different from `-{foo}-`.  You don't usually notice
this because languageconversion is disabled in many wikis, but it can cause
problems if unbalanced syntax is used inside a template argument, like:
`{{foo|-{bar}}`.  Here you need to use `{{foo|-{bar}}`, even if
LanguageConverter is not enabled.

Amir -- in german, shouldn't they be tweaking the "linktrail" setting on
dewiki, instead of using ``?  What are cases where they *do* want
the link to include the entire word?  Can they be automatically
distinguished?
 --scott

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:17 AM Bináris  wrote:

> Here is a list of removals. :-)
>
> https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speci%C3%A1lis:Szerkeszt%C5%91_k%C3%B6zrem%C5%B1k%C3%B6d%C3%A9sei/BinBot=20180912205000=BinBot=28
>
>
> Amir E. Aharoni  ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
> okt. 4., Cs, 16:47):
>
> > Thanks. Can you please give some particular examples?
> >
> > בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 17:41, מאת Bináris ‏:
> >
> > > Amir E. Aharoni  ezt írta (időpont:
> 2018.
> > > okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):
> > >
> > > >
> > > > This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
> > > > needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole
> > sentence|date=October
> > > > 2018}}
> > > >
> > > > However,  has less trivial use cases, that are not quite the
> > same
> > > > as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is linking
> a
> > > part
> > > > of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]] > > />reichtum".
> > > > It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the
> word
> > > > "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words.
> This
> > > use
> > > > is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of the
> > > German
> > > > language, which has a lot of long compound words.
> > > >
> > >
> > > We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just decided
> to
> > > eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > ___
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> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
>
> --
> Bináris
> ___
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Bináris]

Here is a list of removals. :-)
https://hu.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speci%C3%A1lis:Szerkeszt%C5%91_k%C3%B6zrem%C5%B1k%C3%B6d%C3%A9sei/BinBot=20180912205000=BinBot=28


Amir E. Aharoni  ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
okt. 4., Cs, 16:47):

> Thanks. Can you please give some particular examples?
>
> בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 17:41, מאת Bináris ‏:
>
> > Amir E. Aharoni  ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
> > okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):
> >
> > >
> > > This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
> > > needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole
> sentence|date=October
> > > 2018}}
> > >
> > > However,  has less trivial use cases, that are not quite the
> same
> > > as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is linking a
> > part
> > > of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]] > />reichtum".
> > > It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the word
> > > "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words. This
> > use
> > > is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of the
> > German
> > > language, which has a lot of long compound words.
> > >
> >
> > We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just decided to
> > eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
> > ___
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-- 
Bináris
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Thanks. Can you please give some particular examples?

בתאריך יום ה׳, 4 באוק׳ 2018, 17:41, מאת Bináris ‏:

> Amir E. Aharoni  ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
> okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):
>
> >
> > This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
> > needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole sentence|date=October
> > 2018}}
> >
> > However,  has less trivial use cases, that are not quite the same
> > as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is linking a
> part
> > of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]] />reichtum".
> > It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the word
> > "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words. This
> use
> > is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of the
> German
> > language, which has a lot of long compound words.
> >
>
> We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just decided to
> eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
> ___
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: [Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Bináris]

Amir E. Aharoni  ezt írta (időpont: 2018.
okt. 4., Cs, 16:18):

>
> This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
> needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole sentence|date=October
> 2018}}
>
> However,  has less trivial use cases, that are not quite the same
> as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is linking a part
> of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]]reichtum".
> It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the word
> "nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words. This use
> is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of the German
> language, which has a lot of long compound words.
>

We have a lot of them in Hungarian Wikipedia, and we have just decided to
eradicate them, because this is a non-desired effect. :-)
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[Wikitech-l] non-obvious uses of in your language

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Hi,

In MediaWiki, the  tag was created for writing characters without
having them interpreted as wiki syntax. An obvious and direct use case for
this is writing help pages about editing wiki pages in wiki syntax, for
example:

Writing '''words between three apostrophes''' will show
them in bold font: '''words between three apostrophes'''.

Another related use case is demonstrating how templates work:

This sentence shows the template used at the end.{{Citation
needed|reason=Reliable source needed for the whole sentence|date=October
2018}}

However,  has less trivial use cases, that are not quite the same
as demonstrating wiki syntax. One such usage I'm aware of is linking a part
of a long compound German word, for example "[[Schnee]]reichtum".
It produces the desired effect, however it is a bit of a hack: the word
"nowiki" doesn't have anything to do with dividing compound words. This use
is quite common in the German Wikipedia because of the nature of the German
language, which has a lot of long compound words.

Are there other languages where comparable hacks with  exist,
dictated by the nature of the language or by any local policies?

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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