Re: [WISPA] Maximum sector power?
Do not forget OOB and the likes. I have been using AirView for a while
to check on my sites and some were unacceptable to me (5mhz but still
hitting 10 or 20mhz at -85) so I replaced the cards (all MT sites). I
am unsure if the cards are bad, going bad, or just how they were
working from day one. Swapped them, and they look much better. I have
been hunting down interference (most of it not self, only 2 links were
over lapping and that due to the spread on the cards). I noticed that
some sites had a higher then expected noise floor. I tracked it down
to pretty much all of my NS5's (non M's). There is a pretty high bleed
from a number of them. The linked airview screen shot shows a site
with nothing but a nano5 in AP WDS mode with no clients connected. It
is set for 5mhz and ch 164. The step to -...@5.810 is present with in
30 seconds of powering the nano. The next step down, to about
-...@5.793 a bit after that (60~90sec). This was taken with a rocket
and 120* 16db sector about 10ft in front and 10ft below the nano. The
nano is running stock firmware and will be replaced with a nano5m.
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/8832/snapshot3v.png
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 9:12 PM, Robert West wrote:
> Stick with the rules, dude. You'll still get customers and you'll still
> make money.
>
> One FCC visit can ruin your day,
>
> Bob-
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Fred R. Goldstein
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 5:41 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Maximum sector power?
>
> I'm just a little confused about some of these nice-looking access points.
> The UBNT Rocket M5, for instance, can put out +27 dBm. It plugs *right
> into* a nice 19dB sector antenna. Okay, the smaller,
> 120 dB sector is only 16 dB. Now math is not really my thing but I get a
> total ERP there of +43 to 46 dBm.
>
> FCC Rule 15.247 states that the maximum transmitted power output for
> digitally-modulated intentional radiators in the 5725-5850 MHz band
> ("ISM") is 1 watt, and the maximum antenna gain is 6 dBi. Each additional
> dB of antanna gain means one less dB of power. So the maximum ERP is 4
> watts (+36).
>
> Point-to-point is an exception in that specific band; it is allowed
> unlimited antenna gain. But "point-to-multipoint systems, omnidirectional
> applications, and multiple co-located intentional radiators transmitting the
> same information" are under the cap.
>
> So am I correct in assuming that everybody who uses the Rocket M5, or any
> other similar PtMP system for subscriber access, turns the transmitter power
> REAL low (~+20 + feedline loss), in order to keep the ERP below +36? Or are
> we assuming that since you're technically only transmitting and receiving to
> one end user at a time, it's really PtP?
>
> SkyPilot's legal hack, of course, is to have eight 45 degree sector antennas
> and only use one at a time, so it is legally PTP even with
> +42 EiRP. And with advanced 11N 4x4 beamforming antennas, something
> like that will become relatively easy. But we're not quite there yet.
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> Fred Goldstein k1io fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
> ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/
> +1 617 795 2701
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] Maximum sector power?
We are running RocketM2's and RocketM5's and we have set policy's on the 120 sectors to limit the power on the radios to 17db they seem to act better then setting them to 20. Oddly enough much stronger signal's at 17 than at 20.. We have one site where we have the radios set to 13 and they work beautifully. Ryan On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Rubens Kuhl wrote: > > > > The PtP/PtMP distinction does create interesting ambiguity. But then > > My favorite ambiguity is whether the PtP/PtMP distinction applies to > the full-duplex system or per traffic direction... one reading would > say that an uplink(Customer - > WISP) that is made using directive > antennas can follow PtP instead of PtMP rules, which would apply only > to the downlink (WISP -> Customer) . > > > > Rubens > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > -- Ryan Ghering Network Operations - Plains.Net Office: 970-848-0475 - Cell: 970-630-1879 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Maximum sector power?
> > The PtP/PtMP distinction does create interesting ambiguity. But then My favorite ambiguity is whether the PtP/PtMP distinction applies to the full-duplex system or per traffic direction... one reading would say that an uplink(Customer - > WISP) that is made using directive antennas can follow PtP instead of PtMP rules, which would apply only to the downlink (WISP -> Customer) . Rubens WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Maximum sector power?
At 6/24/2010 12:12 AM, Robert West wrote:
>Stick with the rules, dude. You'll still get customers and you'll still
>make money.
>
>One FCC visit can ruin your day,
Oh, I intend to advise my clients to stick with the rules, and I
design networks accordingly. I'm just a little surprised at how easy
it seems to break them, even inadvertently.
The PtP/PtMP distinction does create interesting ambiguity. But then
the FCC is terrible at drawing lines. Their whole approach to
rulemaking is to pick out point cases and decide them, and then leave
it to everyone to figure out which point case is closest to the
problem at hand. I largely work in the CLEC space and the rules for
intercarrier compensation are totally whacked-out. Some are from
1984, some from 1996, some from 2001, and there's newer case law all
over the place, and none make any sense in the real world.
So they are probably viewing PtMP as your basic home 802.11b access
point, which they don't want tricked out too far, and PtP as your
basic dish-to-dish microwave hop. Anything else is left to interpretation.
They are apparently pretty strict about the shared bands in the 5.4
GHz range. At 5.8, it's ISM, which is basically a junque band, like
2.4, so the rules are less strict and I'm guessing there's less
enforcement. But that's not a reason to design outside of the rules.
>Bob-
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>Behalf Of Fred R. Goldstein
>Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 5:41 PM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: [WISPA] Maximum sector power?
>
>I'm just a little confused about some of these nice-looking access points.
>The UBNT Rocket M5, for instance, can put out +27 dBm. It plugs *right
>into* a nice 19dB sector antenna. Okay, the smaller,
>120 dB sector is only 16 dB. Now math is not really my thing but I get a
>total ERP there of +43 to 46 dBm.
>
>FCC Rule 15.247 states that the maximum transmitted power output for
>digitally-modulated intentional radiators in the 5725-5850 MHz band
>("ISM") is 1 watt, and the maximum antenna gain is 6 dBi. Each additional
>dB of antanna gain means one less dB of power. So the maximum ERP is 4
>watts (+36).
>
>Point-to-point is an exception in that specific band; it is allowed
>unlimited antenna gain. But "point-to-multipoint systems, omnidirectional
>applications, and multiple co-located intentional radiators transmitting the
>same information" are under the cap.
>
>So am I correct in assuming that everybody who uses the Rocket M5, or any
>other similar PtMP system for subscriber access, turns the transmitter power
>REAL low (~+20 + feedline loss), in order to keep the ERP below +36? Or are
>we assuming that since you're technically only transmitting and receiving to
>one end user at a time, it's really PtP?
>
>SkyPilot's legal hack, of course, is to have eight 45 degree sector antennas
>and only use one at a time, so it is legally PTP even with
>+42 EiRP. And with advanced 11N 4x4 beamforming antennas, something
>like that will become relatively easy. But we're not quite there yet.
>Thoughts?
>
> --
> Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
> ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/
> +1 617 795 2701
>
>
>
>
>
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>http://signup.wispa.org/
>
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--
Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/
+1 617 795 2701
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Re: [WISPA] Maximum sector power?
Stick with the rules, dude. You'll still get customers and you'll still
make money.
One FCC visit can ruin your day,
Bob-
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Fred R. Goldstein
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 5:41 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Maximum sector power?
I'm just a little confused about some of these nice-looking access points.
The UBNT Rocket M5, for instance, can put out +27 dBm. It plugs *right
into* a nice 19dB sector antenna. Okay, the smaller,
120 dB sector is only 16 dB. Now math is not really my thing but I get a
total ERP there of +43 to 46 dBm.
FCC Rule 15.247 states that the maximum transmitted power output for
digitally-modulated intentional radiators in the 5725-5850 MHz band
("ISM") is 1 watt, and the maximum antenna gain is 6 dBi. Each additional
dB of antanna gain means one less dB of power. So the maximum ERP is 4
watts (+36).
Point-to-point is an exception in that specific band; it is allowed
unlimited antenna gain. But "point-to-multipoint systems, omnidirectional
applications, and multiple co-located intentional radiators transmitting the
same information" are under the cap.
So am I correct in assuming that everybody who uses the Rocket M5, or any
other similar PtMP system for subscriber access, turns the transmitter power
REAL low (~+20 + feedline loss), in order to keep the ERP below +36? Or are
we assuming that since you're technically only transmitting and receiving to
one end user at a time, it's really PtP?
SkyPilot's legal hack, of course, is to have eight 45 degree sector antennas
and only use one at a time, so it is legally PTP even with
+42 EiRP. And with advanced 11N 4x4 beamforming antennas, something
like that will become relatively easy. But we're not quite there yet.
Thoughts?
--
Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/
+1 617 795 2701
WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] Maximum sector power?
And when the FCC comes knocking, you can always point to the other guy
and say "but he's worse!"
Or not...
Randy
On 6/23/2010 3:59 PM, Jack Unger wrote:
> That's a basic question.
>
> From one consultant to another... the maximum legal access point EIRP
> on 5.8 GHz is +36 dBm.
>
> What individual WISP operators actually do in practice is anybody's guess.
>
> The majority of WISP operators are mature, responsible people. They
> strive to do the right thing and to obey the law to the best of their
> ability.
>
> A minority of WISP operators (unfortunately, our industry has its share
> of "bad apples") take pride in their disdain for anybody or anything and
> seem to revel in telling other people to go to hell.
>
> Best of luck to you,
> jack
>
>
>
> Fred R. Goldstein wrote:
>
>> I'm just a little confused about some of these nice-looking access
>> points. The UBNT Rocket M5, for instance, can put out +27 dBm. It
>> plugs *right into* a nice 19dB sector antenna. Okay, the smaller,
>> 120 dB sector is only 16 dB. Now math is not really my thing but I
>> get a total ERP there of +43 to 46 dBm.
>>
>> FCC Rule 15.247 states that the maximum transmitted power output for
>> digitally-modulated intentional radiators in the 5725-5850 MHz band
>> ("ISM") is 1 watt, and the maximum antenna gain is 6 dBi. Each
>> additional dB of antanna gain means one less dB of power. So the
>> maximum ERP is 4 watts (+36).
>>
>> Point-to-point is an exception in that specific band; it is allowed
>> unlimited antenna gain. But "point-to-multipoint systems,
>> omnidirectional applications, and multiple co-located intentional
>> radiators transmitting the same information" are under the cap.
>>
>> So am I correct in assuming that everybody who uses the Rocket M5, or
>> any other similar PtMP system for subscriber access, turns the
>> transmitter power REAL low (~+20 + feedline loss), in order to keep
>> the ERP below +36? Or are we assuming that since you're technically
>> only transmitting and receiving to one end user at a time, it's really PtP?
>>
>> SkyPilot's legal hack, of course, is to have eight 45 degree sector
>> antennas and only use one at a time, so it is legally PTP even with
>> +42 EiRP. And with advanced 11N 4x4 beamforming antennas, something
>> like that will become relatively easy. But we're not quite there
>> yet. Thoughts?
>>
>>--
>>Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
>>ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/
>>+1 617 795 2701
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Randy Cosby
Vice President
InfoWest, Inc
435-674-0165 x 2010
http://www.infowest.com/
"As knowledge increases, the verdict of yesterday must be reversed
today, and in the long run the most positive authority is the
least to be trusted." - Hugh Nibley
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Re: [WISPA] Maximum sector power?
That's a basic question.
From one consultant to another... the maximum legal access point EIRP
on 5.8 GHz is +36 dBm.
What individual WISP operators actually do in practice is anybody's guess.
The majority of WISP operators are mature, responsible people. They
strive to do the right thing and to obey the law to the best of their
ability.
A minority of WISP operators (unfortunately, our industry has its share
of "bad apples") take pride in their disdain for anybody or anything and
seem to revel in telling other people to go to hell.
Best of luck to you,
jack
Fred R. Goldstein wrote:
> I'm just a little confused about some of these nice-looking access
> points. The UBNT Rocket M5, for instance, can put out +27 dBm. It
> plugs *right into* a nice 19dB sector antenna. Okay, the smaller,
> 120 dB sector is only 16 dB. Now math is not really my thing but I
> get a total ERP there of +43 to 46 dBm.
>
> FCC Rule 15.247 states that the maximum transmitted power output for
> digitally-modulated intentional radiators in the 5725-5850 MHz band
> ("ISM") is 1 watt, and the maximum antenna gain is 6 dBi. Each
> additional dB of antanna gain means one less dB of power. So the
> maximum ERP is 4 watts (+36).
>
> Point-to-point is an exception in that specific band; it is allowed
> unlimited antenna gain. But "point-to-multipoint systems,
> omnidirectional applications, and multiple co-located intentional
> radiators transmitting the same information" are under the cap.
>
> So am I correct in assuming that everybody who uses the Rocket M5, or
> any other similar PtMP system for subscriber access, turns the
> transmitter power REAL low (~+20 + feedline loss), in order to keep
> the ERP below +36? Or are we assuming that since you're technically
> only transmitting and receiving to one end user at a time, it's really PtP?
>
> SkyPilot's legal hack, of course, is to have eight 45 degree sector
> antennas and only use one at a time, so it is legally PTP even with
> +42 EiRP. And with advanced 11N 4x4 beamforming antennas, something
> like that will become relatively easy. But we're not quite there
> yet. Thoughts?
>
> --
> Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
> ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/
> +1 617 795 2701
>
>
>
>
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
--
Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing
Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993
www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com
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Re: [WISPA] Maximum sector power?
That's a basic question.
From one consultant to another... the maximum legal access point EIRP
on 5.8 GHz is +36 dBm.
What individual WISP operators actually do in practice is anybody's guess.
The majority of WISP operators are mature, responsible people. They
strive to do the right thing and to obey the law to the best of their
ability.
A minority of WISP operators (unfortunately, our industry has its share
of "bad apples") take pride in their disdain for anybody or anything and
seem to revel in telling other people to go to hell.
Best of luck to you,
jack
Fred R. Goldstein wrote:
> I'm just a little confused about some of these nice-looking access
> points. The UBNT Rocket M5, for instance, can put out +27 dBm. It
> plugs *right into* a nice 19dB sector antenna. Okay, the smaller,
> 120 dB sector is only 16 dB. Now math is not really my thing but I
> get a total ERP there of +43 to 46 dBm.
>
> FCC Rule 15.247 states that the maximum transmitted power output for
> digitally-modulated intentional radiators in the 5725-5850 MHz band
> ("ISM") is 1 watt, and the maximum antenna gain is 6 dBi. Each
> additional dB of antanna gain means one less dB of power. So the
> maximum ERP is 4 watts (+36).
>
> Point-to-point is an exception in that specific band; it is allowed
> unlimited antenna gain. But "point-to-multipoint systems,
> omnidirectional applications, and multiple co-located intentional
> radiators transmitting the same information" are under the cap.
>
> So am I correct in assuming that everybody who uses the Rocket M5, or
> any other similar PtMP system for subscriber access, turns the
> transmitter power REAL low (~+20 + feedline loss), in order to keep
> the ERP below +36? Or are we assuming that since you're technically
> only transmitting and receiving to one end user at a time, it's really PtP?
>
> SkyPilot's legal hack, of course, is to have eight 45 degree sector
> antennas and only use one at a time, so it is legally PTP even with
> +42 EiRP. And with advanced 11N 4x4 beamforming antennas, something
> like that will become relatively easy. But we're not quite there
> yet. Thoughts?
>
> --
> Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
> ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/
> +1 617 795 2701
>
>
>
>
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
--
Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Network Design - Technical Training - Technical Writing
Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities since 1993
www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com
WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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[WISPA] Maximum sector power?
I'm just a little confused about some of these nice-looking access
points. The UBNT Rocket M5, for instance, can put out +27 dBm. It
plugs *right into* a nice 19dB sector antenna. Okay, the smaller,
120 dB sector is only 16 dB. Now math is not really my thing but I
get a total ERP there of +43 to 46 dBm.
FCC Rule 15.247 states that the maximum transmitted power output for
digitally-modulated intentional radiators in the 5725-5850 MHz band
("ISM") is 1 watt, and the maximum antenna gain is 6 dBi. Each
additional dB of antanna gain means one less dB of power. So the
maximum ERP is 4 watts (+36).
Point-to-point is an exception in that specific band; it is allowed
unlimited antenna gain. But "point-to-multipoint systems,
omnidirectional applications, and multiple co-located intentional
radiators transmitting the same information" are under the cap.
So am I correct in assuming that everybody who uses the Rocket M5, or
any other similar PtMP system for subscriber access, turns the
transmitter power REAL low (~+20 + feedline loss), in order to keep
the ERP below +36? Or are we assuming that since you're technically
only transmitting and receiving to one end user at a time, it's really PtP?
SkyPilot's legal hack, of course, is to have eight 45 degree sector
antennas and only use one at a time, so it is legally PTP even with
+42 EiRP. And with advanced 11N 4x4 beamforming antennas, something
like that will become relatively easy. But we're not quite there
yet. Thoughts?
--
Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/
+1 617 795 2701
WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] RB433AH
I believe we call them "interns" now... -- Adam Kennedy Network Engineer Omnicity, Inc. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 1:15 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] RB433AH Oh yes! Where can I find slaves? :) On 6/23/10, Butch Evans wrote: > On Wed, 2010-06-23 at 00:35 -0400, Josh Luthman wrote: >> Nope! Back to work! > > Slavedriver! :-) > > -- > > * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* > * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * > * http://store.wispgear.net/* Wired or Wireless Networks * > * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE! * > > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
