Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008
Have you noticed Mtik's listing for this information anywhere? I cannot find it anywhere I agree with you on this subject. Perhaps it is just a mis-understanding. I'll ask about it offline. ryan Bob Knight wrote: If I were in John's shoes, I'd feel the same way. Personally, I'd have more respect for Tranzeo if they complied with the GPL and BSD licenses. The ER1000 series is Linux-based. Nowhere in Tranzeo's documentation or on their web site do I find the information required by the GPL. If one gets into the unit, the information required by the BSD license isn't there either. We (LCWA, that is) have talked to them regarding this and they're basically non-responsive. To many, it's a small thing. In my opinion, it matters because it speaks to ethics. FWIW. Bob John Scrivner wrote: Now if they would just drop a mere $1000 to join WISPA as a Vendor Member they would earn mine. I use their products every day. I have asked them to join, face to face, at shows as recently as the last WiMax World a month ago. Tranzeo benefits regularly from WISPA but as yet seems reluctant to support our industry efforts. Scriv On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:25 PM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read every word. Tranzeo has earned my respect. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 6:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List; Mikrotik discussions; Mikrotik Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008 Ladies and Gentlemen, (Please pardon my extensive use of () and in this here email, I am not so good with the typin' stuff! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A few weeks ago (years in some cases, hi Travis!) there was discovered a random disconnect issue between Tranzeo CPE and Mtik APs. First it was prism vs atheos (no, that was not it) Then it was tranzeo CPE are terrible. Yadda Yadda (no that is not it either as even MTIK CPE were seing this, although not as often) Then it was you must have some power issue with the boards browning out on the routeros board you are using (nope, not that either) Someone even threw in Pluto is mad that it is not a planet any more. (Pluto is now considered the largest member of a distinct population called the Kuiper belt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt.) Even I said it was not an issue and hey they just disconnect a few times a day.. who cares! (whoops! talk to my P** off customers!) Even Marlon the strange wizard from the far side of the mountains said the Tranzeo CPE were to blame (he convinced me to use Tranzeo over SmartBridges! Thank Goodness!) Travis from Idaho posted a forum entry here for Mtik to ignore or scoff at: (Hi Uldis!) http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?f=7t=24971 I emailed Damian and another gentleman from Tranzeo privately and said WTF kids? I did some network sniffing for them and was able to give EXACT details about what was happening, when and how. We (Tranzeo and I, mostly Damian) opened a ticket with Mtik (Ticket#2008091666000531): Tranzeo laid out a packet sniff from Network Instruments Wireless Observer along with my wireshark packet sniff showing in brief that the Mtik AP was throwing out random zeros in it's beacon frame timestamp. They stated that when a zero is recieved, the CPE are to assume that there is a change in the settings of the wireless AP and they should disconnect and reaquire. (think of this as an INSTANT change from 802.11b to 802.11b/g and all your clients disconnect and reconnect, because, well, there is a change in the AP's capabilities. This is reasonable reaction to a notification of a change of settings. Mtik replied with IEEE Std 802.11-2007 section 11.1.1.1 (located here if you have trouble sleeping: (http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11-2007.pdf *YAWN* let me tell you, this explains why wireless engineers are who they are.. whoa!) Mtik continued and said that the wording of this standard allowed for a timestamp of zero sent from the AP and basically the CPE should deal with it and play through. Damian learned some Latvian so he could swear in a diffrent language than Canadian. Honestly, he likes to be legal in APs etc and just cannot see why us ULS users would flaunt the FCC _and_ put up with these Mtik bugs. I mentioned something under my breath regarding CPQs and firware updates about 3 years ago... The nice gentleman engineer at Tranzeo placed some virtual CPE on a bench facing a Mtik AP and was able to reproduce the issue. He then released to me some very alpha firmware that would email him with a warning whenever a CPQ saw a zero frame
Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008
On Thu, 30 Oct 2008, D. Ryan Spott wrote: Have you noticed Mtik's listing for this information anywhere? I cannot find it anywhere It's here: http://ROUTERIP/help/license.html I agree with you on this subject. Perhaps it is just a mis-understanding. I'll ask about it offline. I can't speak for Tranzeo, as I've never used their product. If they are truly being silent in response to queries, that speaks volumes. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008
If I were in John's shoes, I'd feel the same way. Personally, I'd have more respect for Tranzeo if they complied with the GPL and BSD licenses. The ER1000 series is Linux-based. Nowhere in Tranzeo's documentation or on their web site do I find the information required by the GPL. If one gets into the unit, the information required by the BSD license isn't there either. We (LCWA, that is) have talked to them regarding this and they're basically non-responsive. To many, it's a small thing. In my opinion, it matters because it speaks to ethics. FWIW. Bob John Scrivner wrote: Now if they would just drop a mere $1000 to join WISPA as a Vendor Member they would earn mine. I use their products every day. I have asked them to join, face to face, at shows as recently as the last WiMax World a month ago. Tranzeo benefits regularly from WISPA but as yet seems reluctant to support our industry efforts. Scriv On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:25 PM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read every word. Tranzeo has earned my respect. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 6:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List; Mikrotik discussions; Mikrotik Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008 Ladies and Gentlemen, (Please pardon my extensive use of () and in this here email, I am not so good with the typin' stuff! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A few weeks ago (years in some cases, hi Travis!) there was discovered a random disconnect issue between Tranzeo CPE and Mtik APs. First it was prism vs atheos (no, that was not it) Then it was tranzeo CPE are terrible. Yadda Yadda (no that is not it either as even MTIK CPE were seing this, although not as often) Then it was you must have some power issue with the boards browning out on the routeros board you are using (nope, not that either) Someone even threw in Pluto is mad that it is not a planet any more. (Pluto is now considered the largest member of a distinct population called the Kuiper belt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt.) Even I said it was not an issue and hey they just disconnect a few times a day.. who cares! (whoops! talk to my P** off customers!) Even Marlon the strange wizard from the far side of the mountains said the Tranzeo CPE were to blame (he convinced me to use Tranzeo over SmartBridges! Thank Goodness!) Travis from Idaho posted a forum entry here for Mtik to ignore or scoff at: (Hi Uldis!) http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?f=7t=24971 I emailed Damian and another gentleman from Tranzeo privately and said WTF kids? I did some network sniffing for them and was able to give EXACT details about what was happening, when and how. We (Tranzeo and I, mostly Damian) opened a ticket with Mtik (Ticket#2008091666000531): Tranzeo laid out a packet sniff from Network Instruments Wireless Observer along with my wireshark packet sniff showing in brief that the Mtik AP was throwing out random zeros in it's beacon frame timestamp. They stated that when a zero is recieved, the CPE are to assume that there is a change in the settings of the wireless AP and they should disconnect and reaquire. (think of this as an INSTANT change from 802.11b to 802.11b/g and all your clients disconnect and reconnect, because, well, there is a change in the AP's capabilities. This is reasonable reaction to a notification of a change of settings. Mtik replied with IEEE Std 802.11-2007 section 11.1.1.1 (located here if you have trouble sleeping: (http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11-2007.pdf *YAWN* let me tell you, this explains why wireless engineers are who they are.. whoa!) Mtik continued and said that the wording of this standard allowed for a timestamp of zero sent from the AP and basically the CPE should deal with it and play through. Damian learned some Latvian so he could swear in a diffrent language than Canadian. Honestly, he likes to be legal in APs etc and just cannot see why us ULS users would flaunt the FCC _and_ put up with these Mtik bugs. I mentioned something under my breath regarding CPQs and firware updates about 3 years ago... The nice gentleman engineer at Tranzeo placed some virtual CPE on a bench facing a Mtik AP and was able to reproduce the issue. He then released to me some very alpha firmware that would email him with a warning whenever a CPQ saw a zero frame. This alpha software would also IGNORE this frame and keep on trucking. This alpha firmware was given with the stern warning that if I changed ANYTHING on the AP I would have to really recycle it to make all the CPE realize
[WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008
Just a FYI, I got this from Mikrotik.. I wanted to make sure I sent it out to everyone.. The tranzeo timestamp issues comes from tranzeo implementing a timestamp check that is not included in the 802.11 standard for ap to client communications. The timestamp check is included in the standard for the adhoc (IBSS) wireless mode (which is not commonly used and Mikrotik does not support) -- and there is are reasons that it is included in adhoc mode and not in ap to client mode. The standard requires clients to accept the beacon timestamp unconditionally in ap to client mode. Tranzeo has added a specific check because they said they thought it is logical that the check be applied to ap to client mode. Good standards implementations do not add things to a standard. These standards are made by IEEE committees of engineers that are very specific on what they include and don't include. If a company wants to change a standard, then they need to join the committee and, through peer review, get a new standard approved. We have made a work-around for their violation of the standard. But rather than somebody saying thank you, the old saying of 'no good deed goes unpunished' is proven again. We make many work-arounds for incorrect standards implementations and extension by companies such as Microsoft, Realtek, and now Tranzeo. We do that to help our customers, but in reality, the vendors that do not follow the standards should fix the problem. In summary, it is very unfair that we are blamed for problems made by another company that does not implement the standard correctly. Many people in this business don't do it just for money, but because they like making things (be it WISP or equipment for WISP). Rants without basis kind of put a wet blanket on the whole party. For those that would like to research this, here a clear reference from the 802.11 standard that is pertinent: From 802.11-2007, 11.1.1.1 TSF for infrastructure networks: ... A receiving STA shall always accept the timing information in Beacon frames sent from the AP servicing its BSS. If a STAâEUR^(TM)s TSF timer is different from the timestamp in the received Beacon frame, the receiving STA shall set its local TSF timer to the received timestamp value. Tranzeo decided to assume that receiving a beacon with timestamp less than in previous beacon indicates that the AP has restarted (the standard has another method to handle restarted ap units). This check is not in the standard and this a tranzeo addition to the standard that has cause the disconnect problem that Ryan has suffered from. Regards, Mikrotik -- * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services* 314-735-0270 http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/* D. Ryan Spott wrote: Oh don't think I have not tried to shame them into this MULTIPLE times... :) Damian! Get on it! ryan -Original Message- From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 6:43 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008 Now if they would just drop a mere $1000 to join WISPA as a Vendor Member they would earn mine. I use their products every day. I have asked them to join, face to face, at shows as recently as the last WiMax World a month ago. Tranzeo benefits regularly from WISPA but as yet seems reluctant to support our industry efforts. Scriv On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:25 PM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read every word. Tranzeo has earned my respect. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 6:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List; Mikrotik discussions; Mikrotik Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008 Ladies and Gentlemen, (Please pardon my extensive use of () and in this here email, I am not so good with the typin' stuff! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A few weeks ago (years in some cases, hi Travis!) there was discovered a random disconnect issue between Tranzeo CPE and Mtik APs. First it was prism vs atheos (no, that was not it) Then it was tranzeo CPE are terrible. Yadda Yadda (no that is not it either as even MTIK CPE were seing this, although not as often) Then it was you must have some power issue with the boards browning out on the routeros board you are using (nope, not that either) Someone even threw in Pluto is mad that it is not a planet any more. (Pluto is now considered the largest member
Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008
Now if they would just drop a mere $1000 to join WISPA as a Vendor Member they would earn mine. I use their products every day. I have asked them to join, face to face, at shows as recently as the last WiMax World a month ago. Tranzeo benefits regularly from WISPA but as yet seems reluctant to support our industry efforts. Scriv On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:25 PM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read every word. Tranzeo has earned my respect. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 6:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List; Mikrotik discussions; Mikrotik Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008 Ladies and Gentlemen, (Please pardon my extensive use of () and in this here email, I am not so good with the typin' stuff! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A few weeks ago (years in some cases, hi Travis!) there was discovered a random disconnect issue between Tranzeo CPE and Mtik APs. First it was prism vs atheos (no, that was not it) Then it was tranzeo CPE are terrible. Yadda Yadda (no that is not it either as even MTIK CPE were seing this, although not as often) Then it was you must have some power issue with the boards browning out on the routeros board you are using (nope, not that either) Someone even threw in Pluto is mad that it is not a planet any more. (Pluto is now considered the largest member of a distinct population called the Kuiper belt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt.) Even I said it was not an issue and hey they just disconnect a few times a day.. who cares! (whoops! talk to my P** off customers!) Even Marlon the strange wizard from the far side of the mountains said the Tranzeo CPE were to blame (he convinced me to use Tranzeo over SmartBridges! Thank Goodness!) Travis from Idaho posted a forum entry here for Mtik to ignore or scoff at: (Hi Uldis!) http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?f=7t=24971 I emailed Damian and another gentleman from Tranzeo privately and said WTF kids? I did some network sniffing for them and was able to give EXACT details about what was happening, when and how. We (Tranzeo and I, mostly Damian) opened a ticket with Mtik (Ticket#2008091666000531): Tranzeo laid out a packet sniff from Network Instruments Wireless Observer along with my wireshark packet sniff showing in brief that the Mtik AP was throwing out random zeros in it's beacon frame timestamp. They stated that when a zero is recieved, the CPE are to assume that there is a change in the settings of the wireless AP and they should disconnect and reaquire. (think of this as an INSTANT change from 802.11b to 802.11b/g and all your clients disconnect and reconnect, because, well, there is a change in the AP's capabilities. This is reasonable reaction to a notification of a change of settings. Mtik replied with IEEE Std 802.11-2007 section 11.1.1.1 (located here if you have trouble sleeping: (http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11-2007.pdf *YAWN* let me tell you, this explains why wireless engineers are who they are.. whoa!) Mtik continued and said that the wording of this standard allowed for a timestamp of zero sent from the AP and basically the CPE should deal with it and play through. Damian learned some Latvian so he could swear in a diffrent language than Canadian. Honestly, he likes to be legal in APs etc and just cannot see why us ULS users would flaunt the FCC _and_ put up with these Mtik bugs. I mentioned something under my breath regarding CPQs and firware updates about 3 years ago... The nice gentleman engineer at Tranzeo placed some virtual CPE on a bench facing a Mtik AP and was able to reproduce the issue. He then released to me some very alpha firmware that would email him with a warning whenever a CPQ saw a zero frame. This alpha software would also IGNORE this frame and keep on trucking. This alpha firmware was given with the stern warning that if I changed ANYTHING on the AP I would have to really recycle it to make all the CPE realize there was a change. This poor engineer was probably overwhelmed when I installed this firmware on 110 CPQs in about an hour. I watched the log file generated by these emails and the events had to be happening in the hundreds per hour. Mtik was silent so I poked Uldis a bit with a comment about silence from Latvia and no National holidays I could see along with: While there is no specific _requirement_ to treat Zero as a reset, _most_ wireless CPE (including yours!) consider this to be a flag to reset. If you don't then when the card is reset
Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008
Oh don't think I have not tried to shame them into this MULTIPLE times... :) Damian! Get on it! ryan -Original Message- From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 6:43 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008 Now if they would just drop a mere $1000 to join WISPA as a Vendor Member they would earn mine. I use their products every day. I have asked them to join, face to face, at shows as recently as the last WiMax World a month ago. Tranzeo benefits regularly from WISPA but as yet seems reluctant to support our industry efforts. Scriv On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:25 PM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read every word. Tranzeo has earned my respect. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 6:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List; Mikrotik discussions; Mikrotik Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008 Ladies and Gentlemen, (Please pardon my extensive use of () and in this here email, I am not so good with the typin' stuff! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A few weeks ago (years in some cases, hi Travis!) there was discovered a random disconnect issue between Tranzeo CPE and Mtik APs. First it was prism vs atheos (no, that was not it) Then it was tranzeo CPE are terrible. Yadda Yadda (no that is not it either as even MTIK CPE were seing this, although not as often) Then it was you must have some power issue with the boards browning out on the routeros board you are using (nope, not that either) Someone even threw in Pluto is mad that it is not a planet any more. (Pluto is now considered the largest member of a distinct population called the Kuiper belt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt.) Even I said it was not an issue and hey they just disconnect a few times a day.. who cares! (whoops! talk to my P** off customers!) Even Marlon the strange wizard from the far side of the mountains [The entire original message is not included] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008
I will forward Damian's reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ryan -Original Message- From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 6:43 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008 Now if they would just drop a mere $1000 to join WISPA as a Vendor Member they would earn mine. I use their products every day. I have asked them to join, face to face, at shows as recently as the last WiMax World a month ago. Tranzeo benefits regularly from WISPA but as yet seems reluctant to support our industry efforts. Scriv On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:25 PM, Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read every word. Tranzeo has earned my respect. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 6:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List; Mikrotik discussions; Mikrotik Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008 Ladies and Gentlemen, (Please pardon my extensive use of () and in this here email, I am not so good with the typin' stuff! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A few weeks ago (years in some cases, hi Travis!) there was discovered a random disconnect issue between Tranzeo CPE and Mtik APs. First it was prism vs atheos (no, that was not it) Then it was tranzeo CPE are terrible. Yadda Yadda (no that is not it either as even MTIK CPE were seing this, although not as often) Then it was you must have some power issue with the boards browning out on the routeros board you are using (nope, not that either) Someone even threw in Pluto is mad that it is not a planet any more. (Pluto is now considered the largest member of a distinct population called the Kuiper belt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt.) Even I said it was not an issue and hey they just disconnect a few times a day.. who cares! (whoops! talk to my P** off customers!) Even Marlon the strange wizard from the far side of the mountains [The entire original message is not included] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008
Ladies and Gentlemen, (Please pardon my extensive use of () and in this here email, I am not so good with the typin' stuff! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A few weeks ago (years in some cases, hi Travis!) there was discovered a random disconnect issue between Tranzeo CPE and Mtik APs. First it was prism vs atheos (no, that was not it) Then it was tranzeo CPE are terrible. Yadda Yadda (no that is not it either as even MTIK CPE were seing this, although not as often) Then it was you must have some power issue with the boards browning out on the routeros board you are using (nope, not that either) Someone even threw in Pluto is mad that it is not a planet any more. (Pluto is now considered the largest member of a distinct population called the Kuiper belt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt.) Even I said it was not an issue and hey they just disconnect a few times a day.. who cares! (whoops! talk to my P** off customers!) Even Marlon the strange wizard from the far side of the mountains said the Tranzeo CPE were to blame (he convinced me to use Tranzeo over SmartBridges! Thank Goodness!) Travis from Idaho posted a forum entry here for Mtik to ignore or scoff at: (Hi Uldis!) http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?f=7t=24971 I emailed Damian and another gentleman from Tranzeo privately and said WTF kids? I did some network sniffing for them and was able to give EXACT details about what was happening, when and how. We (Tranzeo and I, mostly Damian) opened a ticket with Mtik (Ticket#2008091666000531): Tranzeo laid out a packet sniff from Network Instruments Wireless Observer along with my wireshark packet sniff showing in brief that the Mtik AP was throwing out random zeros in it's beacon frame timestamp. They stated that when a zero is recieved, the CPE are to assume that there is a change in the settings of the wireless AP and they should disconnect and reaquire. (think of this as an INSTANT change from 802.11b to 802.11b/g and all your clients disconnect and reconnect, because, well, there is a change in the AP's capabilities. This is reasonable reaction to a notification of a change of settings. Mtik replied with IEEE Std 802.11-2007 section 11.1.1.1 (located here if you have trouble sleeping: (http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11-2007.pdf *YAWN* let me tell you, this explains why wireless engineers are who they are.. whoa!) Mtik continued and said that the wording of this standard allowed for a timestamp of zero sent from the AP and basically the CPE should deal with it and play through. Damian learned some Latvian so he could swear in a diffrent language than Canadian. Honestly, he likes to be legal in APs etc and just cannot see why us ULS users would flaunt the FCC _and_ put up with these Mtik bugs. I mentioned something under my breath regarding CPQs and firware updates about 3 years ago... The nice gentleman engineer at Tranzeo placed some virtual CPE on a bench facing a Mtik AP and was able to reproduce the issue. He then released to me some very alpha firmware that would email him with a warning whenever a CPQ saw a zero frame. This alpha software would also IGNORE this frame and keep on trucking. This alpha firmware was given with the stern warning that if I changed ANYTHING on the AP I would have to really recycle it to make all the CPE realize there was a change. This poor engineer was probably overwhelmed when I installed this firmware on 110 CPQs in about an hour. I watched the log file generated by these emails and the events had to be happening in the hundreds per hour. Mtik was silent so I poked Uldis a bit with a comment about silence from Latvia and no National holidays I could see along with: While there is no specific _requirement_ to treat Zero as a reset, _most_ wireless CPE (including yours!) consider this to be a flag to reset. If you don't then when the card is reset, the client will ignore all of the changes until the time stamp the last one. This is the same as driving on the right side of the road. There is no _LAW_ saying you should do so, but you do because everyone else does! Perhaps there is a reason to drive on the left but not in this case! :) I even showed Mtik support that even THIER Mtik brand CPE were disconnecting in some instances! Mtik replied with a bit of beta software that seems to have helped. It is posted to the forum and only need be installed on APs. (remember CPE don't give out timestamps) This is the second or third iteration of this software. The Tranzeo engineer was receiving close to zero emails from my CPQ (A LOT LESS) and is still seeing an occasional zero here and there on the bench in Canada. He was doing a 72 hour test over the weekend but was
Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008
Fantastic after action / forensics report! It's the best one I have seen, and I have seen many of them, as well as produced hundreds. Good job! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008
I read every word. Tranzeo has earned my respect. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 6:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List; Mikrotik discussions; Mikrotik Users Mailing List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Tranzeo] New Update - Tranzeo/Mtik disconnect issue Oct 10th, 2008 Ladies and Gentlemen, (Please pardon my extensive use of () and in this here email, I am not so good with the typin' stuff! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A few weeks ago (years in some cases, hi Travis!) there was discovered a random disconnect issue between Tranzeo CPE and Mtik APs. First it was prism vs atheos (no, that was not it) Then it was tranzeo CPE are terrible. Yadda Yadda (no that is not it either as even MTIK CPE were seing this, although not as often) Then it was you must have some power issue with the boards browning out on the routeros board you are using (nope, not that either) Someone even threw in Pluto is mad that it is not a planet any more. (Pluto is now considered the largest member of a distinct population called the Kuiper belt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt.) Even I said it was not an issue and hey they just disconnect a few times a day.. who cares! (whoops! talk to my P** off customers!) Even Marlon the strange wizard from the far side of the mountains said the Tranzeo CPE were to blame (he convinced me to use Tranzeo over SmartBridges! Thank Goodness!) Travis from Idaho posted a forum entry here for Mtik to ignore or scoff at: (Hi Uldis!) http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?f=7t=24971 I emailed Damian and another gentleman from Tranzeo privately and said WTF kids? I did some network sniffing for them and was able to give EXACT details about what was happening, when and how. We (Tranzeo and I, mostly Damian) opened a ticket with Mtik (Ticket#2008091666000531): Tranzeo laid out a packet sniff from Network Instruments Wireless Observer along with my wireshark packet sniff showing in brief that the Mtik AP was throwing out random zeros in it's beacon frame timestamp. They stated that when a zero is recieved, the CPE are to assume that there is a change in the settings of the wireless AP and they should disconnect and reaquire. (think of this as an INSTANT change from 802.11b to 802.11b/g and all your clients disconnect and reconnect, because, well, there is a change in the AP's capabilities. This is reasonable reaction to a notification of a change of settings. Mtik replied with IEEE Std 802.11-2007 section 11.1.1.1 (located here if you have trouble sleeping: (http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/download/802.11-2007.pdf *YAWN* let me tell you, this explains why wireless engineers are who they are.. whoa!) Mtik continued and said that the wording of this standard allowed for a timestamp of zero sent from the AP and basically the CPE should deal with it and play through. Damian learned some Latvian so he could swear in a diffrent language than Canadian. Honestly, he likes to be legal in APs etc and just cannot see why us ULS users would flaunt the FCC _and_ put up with these Mtik bugs. I mentioned something under my breath regarding CPQs and firware updates about 3 years ago... The nice gentleman engineer at Tranzeo placed some virtual CPE on a bench facing a Mtik AP and was able to reproduce the issue. He then released to me some very alpha firmware that would email him with a warning whenever a CPQ saw a zero frame. This alpha software would also IGNORE this frame and keep on trucking. This alpha firmware was given with the stern warning that if I changed ANYTHING on the AP I would have to really recycle it to make all the CPE realize there was a change. This poor engineer was probably overwhelmed when I installed this firmware on 110 CPQs in about an hour. I watched the log file generated by these emails and the events had to be happening in the hundreds per hour. Mtik was silent so I poked Uldis a bit with a comment about silence from Latvia and no National holidays I could see along with: While there is no specific _requirement_ to treat Zero as a reset, _most_ wireless CPE (including yours!) consider this to be a flag to reset. If you don't then when the card is reset, the client will ignore all of the changes until the time stamp the last one. This is the same as driving on the right side of the road. There is no _LAW_ saying you should do so, but you do because everyone else does! Perhaps there is a reason to drive on the left but not in this case! :) I even showed Mtik support that even THIER Mtik brand CPE were disconnecting in some
