[WSG] Sydney WSG meeting
Thanks to all those who attended last nights Sydney WSG. We had 38 people, so it was another big night. There were three topics covered. 1. WE04 update John Allsopp talked about the upcoming Sydney Web Essentials conference (http://we04.com). One exciting addition to the program will be the Web Standards Smackdown. Joe Clark, Doug Bowman and Dave Shea, as well as Dean Jackson from W3C and Nigel McFarlane from Mozilla - will all be on stage together for a final smackdown. Each of them will be given 5 minutes to state their case for web standards - the most persuasive, entertaining and eloquent will win. It should be an exciting finale to the conference. 2. Web Standards Checklist I did the first presentation: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/checklist/ A more detailed article will follow in the next week on this. 3. Ben bishop - Desperately seeking validation Ben was under the weather, so Mark Stanton bravely did Ben's presentation with less that 10 minutes notice. Luckily Ben was very prepared. Ben will give us the Powerpoint presentation in the near future and we'll make it available. Both Ben and Mark will be speaking at the WE04 in September. http://we04.com/presenters.cfm#bishop http://we04.com/presenters.cfm#stanton Thanks again Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Adopting Web Standards - Free briefing for Education and Government
Adopting Web Standards Free briefing for Education and Government Government and education are at the forefront of the adoption of web standards. To aid in this process, Web Essentials is hosting this free briefing, featuring the W3Cs Dean Jackson, and highly respected web accessibility expert Roger Hudson. The briefing will be followed by the opportunity to ask any questions of Roger, Dean, as well as Russ Weakley and John Allsopp, over a drink and a bite to eat. There will also be door prizes :) Cost: FREE! Date: Thursday September 2, 2004 Time: 6:00pm for 6.30pm start (refreshments supplied) Venue: TBA RSVP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] More: http://we04.com/education.cfm ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Horizontal List in Mac IE
Thanks James.
I guess you are having the problem where IE Mac doesn't float your list
elements properly and they all go to 100% width down the page?
That was the bug I was having and now it is fix thanks to you :)
With Regards - Jaime
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Ellis
Sent: Friday, 6 August 2004 7:27 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Horizontal List in Mac IE
Jaime
I guess you are having the problem where IE Mac doesn't float your list
elements properly and they all go to 100% width down the page?
I did this to solve the problem.. you need to float the anchor to the
left as well.. it's the only hack I use:
#menu ul li
{
float : left;
display : block;
/* other rules here */
}
#menu a
{
/* for IE 5 mac - float the block level element */
float : left;
display : block;
/* other rules here */
}
/* IE 5.0 for Mac Hack
stops a float for all browsers except IE5 for Mac \*/
#menu a {float:none;}
/* end IE 5.0 for Mac Hack */
You can see it in action at my.spamtrap.net.au
Regarding display : inline; to do things like this.. I know you aren't
using it but it shouldn't really be used as it will break up individual
navigation elements over lines (that's what inline elements do) - better
to make everything a block then consistency remains.
Cheers
James
JW wrote:
Hi Everyone
I am having problem with horizontal list in when viewed in Mac IE.
http://design.sodesires.com/inspiration/
Anyone can tell me why it is not showing as inline? Any solutions?
CSS as follow:
#menu
{
font-family : Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, Geneva;
color : #1C2819;
font-size : 11px;
background : url(../../../images/global/page/header-bottom.jpg)
no-repeat;
height : 56px;
padding-left: 5px;
}
#menu a
{
display : block;
color : #1C2819;
text-decoration : none;
font-weight : bold;
padding : 0 0.6em;
}
#menu ul {height: 24px; margin: 0; padding: 0;}
#menu li {padding: 0; float: left;}
#menu li a:hover, #menu li a#menu-selected
{
color : #ABB698;
background : #1C2819;
}
With Regards - Jaime
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?
Ian Fenn wrote: My client wanted something to show internal stakeholders so I started doing a few wireframes but suddenly wondered, Why am I doing this? Why don't I just build the website using web standards? A day later I finished a working prototype of the website in question. The client is happy but another producer has been quite vocal with his opinion that the prototype was built too early. From my perspective, a prototype has more value than wireframes. Web standards make development much more rapid, so we can respond quickly to any other needs thrown up before going into production. What do you think? Here's my take. I think wireframes are a great first step in developing a site with a complex user flow. I'll often literally just sketch them on paper. They take no time at all and are very easy to change. Because they are rough, people don't get too attached to them as well, which is a bonus. If I'm creating slightly more polished wireframes I'll do them in Freehand. I've all the widgets and templates created, so I can knock a batch of wireframes up very quickly. I can annotate them myself with instructions or print them out and have people scribble on them with suggestions. All very useful. I can then hand them over to the client and they can sign each one off. This forces the client to understand and take responsibility for each wireframe and the signed off wireframes become part of our project spec. HTML prototypes can be extremely useful as they give you and the client a real understanding of the user flow. It's fine looking through a batch of wireframes, but nothing gives you the feel of a website like, er, a website. However I think you have to be a particularly gifted developer to be able to knock up a half descent HTML template in anything near the time it takes to create one in Freehand (or the graphics package of your choice). Also for the HTML template to be as flexible as it's paper equivalent you really do need some mechanism for adding notes/instructions (like a div that you can toggle on and off) and allowing the client to comment and sign them off. Obviously as they are HTML there is no way you can really include them in your spec. The other big issue is that people get very protective of their 'code'. I could see it being very tempting not to change something on a wireframe because it's a 'hassle' rather than for any strategic reasons. also their is the temptation to try and cut corners and turn your prototype into the real thing. Never a good idea in my book, as, by definition, a prototype is a rough, rushed version of what you actually want to build. My position them would be to always wireframe and to build prototypes when you have the time/budget. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Thanks Ben
Ben, Sorry no direct email, but reply much appreciated. Will bugger off and look at floating. Giles -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ben Bishop Sent: 06 August 2004 03:45 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Problem with IE 5 Hi Giles, but when using IE 5 the headlins in the main body slip under the nav bar. Is there a quick hack for this or have I made a fundamental cock-up at the outset with my code? It's all you :) I'm guessing the reason IE5 hides your headings is the top:1px; in your #centreblock. When you absolutely position something, it's positioned in relation to its containing block. The browser is positioning this div 1 pixel from the top of the body and your header sits over it thanks to its higher z-index value. Looking at your document structure, consider using floats instead of absolute positioning. These two tutorials by Russ might float your boat: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/floatutorial/tutorial0901.htm http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/process/index_step05.cfm Regards, Ben ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] can you see why my suckerfish menu is off line in ie/firefox
Adam, i have 2 css problems with my suckerfish implementation; 2. however in both firefox and IE the sub menu sits at the top of the main UL instead of the bottom. I can fix this with a top: 191px; property on To fix the vertical position issue, loose the #nav a float. (the #nav li float is needed, as per the Suckerfish examples.) Now the sub-menus won't be positioned perfectly for your site because they are positioned immediately under the link. Your LI has a height of 59px, your link only 37px (font-size:12px + top padding:15px + bottom padding:10px) Get the heights to match and you'll hopefully have the effect you want. Regards, Ben ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The F-word (frames that is)
Ted Drake wrote: I'm putting together our new web site css-layout. There are a few web sites that put our site into their frameset. If they take my lovely css-formatted page and stick it in their ugly, poorly styled web page built with nasty frames... Could their stylesheet over-ride my style sheet or will the separate html of my page withstand the abuse? Can you tell how happy I am with frames? Ted The good news is, unless some nasty JavaScript targeting the frame your site loads in is put to use, the site that frames you in will do nothing other then load your page as is. Brian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Adopting Web Standards - Free briefing for Education and Government
Sounds great I can see this being very beneficial, especially if done on a wide scale. In the spirit of spreading the knowledge and advocating standards in Gov't, it would be excellent if once you are done, you could post all of your slides/notes on the net. If you can go the extra mile and get us a transcript of the seminar that would be super helpfull in organizing similar free seminars here in the us. Brian russ - maxdesign wrote: Adopting Web Standards Free briefing for Education and Government Government and education are at the forefront of the adoption of web standards. To aid in this process, Web Essentials is hosting this free briefing, featuring the W3Cs Dean Jackson, and highly respected web accessibility expert Roger Hudson. The briefing will be followed by the opportunity to ask any questions of Roger, Dean, as well as Russ Weakley and John Allsopp, over a drink and a bite to eat. There will also be door prizes :) Cost: FREE! Date: Thursday September 2, 2004 Time: 6:00pm for 6.30pm start (refreshments supplied) Venue: TBA RSVP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] More: http://we04.com/education.cfm ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?
Showing my ignorance: Don't wireframes show flow only? Like the map view in Dreamweaver? Or is it an actual possible design one creates often in Photoshop, though this article indicated Freehand. Nancy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Budd Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 5:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards? Ian Fenn wrote: My client wanted something to show internal stakeholders so I started doing a few wireframes but suddenly wondered, Why am I doing this? Why don't I just build the website using web standards? A day later I finished a working prototype of the website in question. The client is happy but another producer has been quite vocal with his opinion that the prototype was built too early. From my perspective, a prototype has more value than wireframes. Web standards make development much more rapid, so we can respond quickly to any other needs thrown up before going into production. What do you think? Here's my take. I think wireframes are a great first step in developing a site with a complex user flow. I'll often literally just sketch them on paper. They take no time at all and are very easy to change. Because they are rough, people don't get too attached to them as well, which is a bonus. If I'm creating slightly more polished wireframes I'll do them in Freehand. I've all the widgets and templates created, so I can knock a batch of wireframes up very quickly. I can annotate them myself with instructions or print them out and have people scribble on them with suggestions. All very useful. I can then hand them over to the client and they can sign each one off. This forces the client to understand and take responsibility for each wireframe and the signed off wireframes become part of our project spec. HTML prototypes can be extremely useful as they give you and the client a real understanding of the user flow. It's fine looking through a batch of wireframes, but nothing gives you the feel of a website like, er, a website. However I think you have to be a particularly gifted developer to be able to knock up a half descent HTML template in anything near the time it takes to create one in Freehand (or the graphics package of your choice). Also for the HTML template to be as flexible as it's paper equivalent you really do need some mechanism for adding notes/instructions (like a div that you can toggle on and off) and allowing the client to comment and sign them off. Obviously as they are HTML there is no way you can really include them in your spec. The other big issue is that people get very protective of their 'code'. I could see it being very tempting not to change something on a wireframe because it's a 'hassle' rather than for any strategic reasons. also their is the temptation to try and cut corners and turn your prototype into the real thing. Never a good idea in my book, as, by definition, a prototype is a rough, rushed version of what you actually want to build. My position them would be to always wireframe and to build prototypes when you have the time/budget. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] HTML CSS references
Hi all, For a few years now, I've been using a combination of Mozilla and a couple of Sidebar tabs (HTML 4.01 and CSS2) for referencing the standards, which has been a great combo, but I think it's time to move on. 1. It's the only reason I have Mozilla open all day 2. It's the only reason I have Mozilla in my Dock 3. Firefox is much less bloated, and has the webdev toolbar which I use all the time In other words, I'm trying to cut my dev browsers down from 2-3 to 1. What I need to use Firefox or Safari exclusively is a replacement for the Mozilla sidebar references for (X)HTML and CSS, I guess in the form of a website, or downloadable reference to be used in a browser. What does everyone else out there use for reference? I can't stand having books open, so it has to be GUI based, preferably browser based, and preferably using frames (only because it's fast and I'm used to it). --- Justin French http://indent.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] layout problem
http://orderlyspaces.com/fri86.html orderlyspaces.com/fri86.css The page displays as I would like it to in IE 5.2 on my Mac (G4 running OS X 10.2.8), but does not work properly in Safari, Firefox, Opera or AOL's. browser on Mac. The problem is that the content, beginning with the quote on the right overlaps the header in every browser I have available but IE. Mozilla on a PC yesterday had the same problem. (I don't have access to IE on a PC and have no idea yet what THAT mess might look like.) The quote and the top item of the menu pretty much line up horizontally in IE (Mac) and that's how I hope to make it work cross-platform and cross-browser. I'm new to css and I'm probably missing something simple or doing something completely backwards, but I'm stumped. I've tried using some suggested hacks and they have helped me get to this point, but I'm not sure I've got them right either. I would appreciate any guidance anyone could offer. Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Barry Cranmer ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] HTML CSS references
G'day What I need to use Firefox or Safari exclusively is a replacement for the Mozilla sidebar references for (X)HTML and CSS, I guess in the form of a website, or downloadable reference to be used in a browser. Have a look at www.zvon.org - they have downloadable references for CSS1/2, XHTML and more. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design www.betterwebdesign.com.au Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] HTML CSS references
What I need to use Firefox or Safari exclusively is a replacement for the Mozilla sidebar references for (X)HTML and CSS, I guess in the form of a website, or downloadable reference to be used in a browser. You could copy paste the info from your Mozilla sidebar into a web page you create (use frames if you desire), customizing it to your own liking, then posting it on the web somewhere. Set it to open it in a tab of its own whenever Firefox starts (ToolsOptionsGeneral), and there it will be for quick reference. Adds the bonus ability of using it from anywhere and sharing it with your friends. You could even add links to references online to jump to quickly. Call it Justin's Web Developer Reference Page ;) Just an idea. Will Chatham Webmaster Ingles Markets ooOo-o 828.669.2941 - ext.534 www.ingles-markets.com -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] HTML CSS references
If you're using FF with the webdev extension, you can quickly (ok, relatively quickly) go to Miscellaneous W3C Documents for reference. At least that's what I end up doing most of the time... Patrick -- _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?
Nancy, Wireframe more often is used to refer to outlined page designs. I.e. a very rough idea of what a page design will look like, normally just black outline boxes, no colour, no real text, no nothing :) They are a way to start visualising the design of a page and how all the elements will fit together, but are by no means a final design. HTH Beau // -Original Message- // From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] // [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Johnson // Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 3:37 AM // To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] // Subject: RE: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards? // // // Showing my ignorance: // // Don't wireframes show flow only? Like the map view in // Dreamweaver? Or is it an actual possible design one creates // often in Photoshop, though this article indicated Freehand. // // Nancy // // -Original Message- // From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] // [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Budd // Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 5:19 AM // To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] // Subject: Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards? // // Ian Fenn wrote: // // My client wanted something to show internal stakeholders // so I started // doing a few wireframes but suddenly wondered, Why am I // doing this? // Why don't I just build the website using web standards? // // A day later I finished a working prototype of the website // in question. // // The client is happy but another producer has been quite // vocal with his // // opinion that the prototype was built too early. // // From my perspective, a prototype has more value than // wireframes. Web // standards make development much more rapid, so we can // respond quickly // to any other needs thrown up before going into production. // // What do you think? // // Here's my take. // // I think wireframes are a great first step in developing a // site with a // complex user flow. I'll often literally just sketch them on // paper. They // take no time at all and are very easy to change. Because they are // rough, people don't get too attached to them as well, which // is a bonus. // // If I'm creating slightly more polished wireframes I'll do them in // Freehand. I've all the widgets and templates created, so I // can knock a // batch of wireframes up very quickly. I can annotate them myself with // instructions or print them out and have people scribble on them with // suggestions. All very useful. // // I can then hand them over to the client and they can sign // each one off. // This forces the client to understand and take responsibility // for each // wireframe and the signed off wireframes become part of our project // spec. // // HTML prototypes can be extremely useful as they give you and // the client // a real understanding of the user flow. It's fine looking through a // batch of wireframes, but nothing gives you the feel of a // website like, // er, a website. // // However I think you have to be a particularly gifted developer to be // able to knock up a half descent HTML template in anything // near the time // it takes to create one in Freehand (or the graphics package of your // choice). // // Also for the HTML template to be as flexible as it's paper // equivalent // you really do need some mechanism for adding // notes/instructions (like a // div that you can toggle on and off) and allowing the client // to comment // and sign them off. Obviously as they are HTML there is no // way you can // really include them in your spec. // // The other big issue is that people get very protective of // their 'code'. // I could see it being very tempting not to change something on a // wireframe because it's a 'hassle' rather than for any strategic // reasons. also their is the temptation to try and cut corners // and turn // your prototype into the real thing. Never a good idea in my // book, as, // by definition, a prototype is a rough, rushed version of what you // actually want to build. // // My position them would be to always wireframe and to build // prototypes // when you have the time/budget. // // Andy Budd // // http://www.message.uk.com/ // // ** // The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ // // Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ // Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge // To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 // // See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm // for some hints on posting to the list getting help // ** // // // ** // The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ // // Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ // Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge // To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 // // See
Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?
Hi, Perhaps wireframes make more sense if you think of them as blueprints, or perhaps a sketch in the design process. I often use pencil sketches complete with color void of content when laying out a new site. I also use this approach with colored div's with just a text description of intended content, following the advice of Russ Weakley, when laying out a css design. W On Friday, August 6, 2004, at 11:14 AM, Beau Lebens wrote: Nancy, Wireframe more often is used to refer to outlined page designs. I.e. a very rough idea of what a page design will look like, normally just black outline boxes, no colour, no real text, no nothing :) They are a way to start visualising the design of a page and how all the elements will fit together, but are by no means a final design. HTH Beau // -Original Message- // From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] // [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Johnson // Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 3:37 AM // To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] // Subject: RE: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards? // // // Showing my ignorance: // // Don't wireframes show flow only? Like the map view in // Dreamweaver? Or is it an actual possible design one creates // often in Photoshop, though this article indicated Freehand. // // Nancy // // -Original Message- // From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] // [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Budd // Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 5:19 AM // To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] // Subject: Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards? // // Ian Fenn wrote: // // My client wanted something to show internal stakeholders // so I started // doing a few wireframes but suddenly wondered, Why am I // doing this? // Why don't I just build the website using web standards? // // A day later I finished a working prototype of the website // in question. // // The client is happy but another producer has been quite // vocal with his // // opinion that the prototype was built too early. // // From my perspective, a prototype has more value than // wireframes. Web // standards make development much more rapid, so we can // respond quickly // to any other needs thrown up before going into production. // // What do you think? // // Here's my take. // // I think wireframes are a great first step in developing a // site with a // complex user flow. I'll often literally just sketch them on // paper. They // take no time at all and are very easy to change. Because they are // rough, people don't get too attached to them as well, which // is a bonus. // // If I'm creating slightly more polished wireframes I'll do them in // Freehand. I've all the widgets and templates created, so I // can knock a // batch of wireframes up very quickly. I can annotate them myself with // instructions or print them out and have people scribble on them with // suggestions. All very useful. // // I can then hand them over to the client and they can sign // each one off. // This forces the client to understand and take responsibility // for each // wireframe and the signed off wireframes become part of our project // spec. // // HTML prototypes can be extremely useful as they give you and // the client // a real understanding of the user flow. It's fine looking through a // batch of wireframes, but nothing gives you the feel of a // website like, // er, a website. // // However I think you have to be a particularly gifted developer to be // able to knock up a half descent HTML template in anything // near the time // it takes to create one in Freehand (or the graphics package of your // choice). // // Also for the HTML template to be as flexible as it's paper // equivalent // you really do need some mechanism for adding // notes/instructions (like a // div that you can toggle on and off) and allowing the client // to comment // and sign them off. Obviously as they are HTML there is no // way you can // really include them in your spec. // // The other big issue is that people get very protective of // their 'code'. // I could see it being very tempting not to change something on a // wireframe because it's a 'hassle' rather than for any strategic // reasons. also their is the temptation to try and cut corners // and turn // your prototype into the real thing. Never a good idea in my // book, as, // by definition, a prototype is a rough, rushed version of what you // actually want to build. // // My position them would be to always wireframe and to build // prototypes // when you have the time/budget. // // Andy Budd // // http://www.message.uk.com/ // // ** // The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ // // Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ // Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge // To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 // // See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm // for some hints on posting to the list getting help //
Re: [WSG] HTML CSS references
http://www.forumimages.com/ref/html/index.php heres one :D ___ Cameron W (aka t94xr) http://www.t94xr.net.nz/ XHTML CSS Compliant. Taupo, NZ. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] HTML CSS references
Westciv's Complete CSS Guide on CD is pretty useful, I believe its inexpensive (I got if for free as a door prize from a web essentials promo night) -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Justin French wrote: Hi all, For a few years now, I've been using a combination of Mozilla and a couple of Sidebar tabs (HTML 4.01 and CSS2) for referencing the standards, which has been a great combo, but I think it's time to move on. 1. It's the only reason I have Mozilla open all day 2. It's the only reason I have Mozilla in my Dock 3. Firefox is much less bloated, and has the webdev toolbar which I use all the time In other words, I'm trying to cut my dev browsers down from 2-3 to 1. What I need to use Firefox or Safari exclusively is a replacement for the Mozilla sidebar references for (X)HTML and CSS, I guess in the form of a website, or downloadable reference to be used in a browser. What does everyone else out there use for reference? I can't stand having books open, so it has to be GUI based, preferably browser based, and preferably using frames (only because it's fast and I'm used to it). --- Justin French http://indent.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] HTML CSS references
Hi, Westciv's Complete CSS Guide on CD is pretty useful, I believe its inexpensive (I got if for free as a door prize from a web essentials promo night) it's also free online here http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/index.html along with many tutorials, articles, compatibility guides, and so on. Or you can purchase an enhanced version, and it comes free with Style Master. Plus come to the Web Essentials Free Education and Government Briefing http://we04.com/education.cfm Where you might win it as a door prize. 'nuff plugging :-) John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ :: WebEssentials Sept 2004 Sydney Australia :: http://www.we04.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] layout problem
Using IE5 as your default browser for development is going to give you these headaches every time. Build to a Standards-compliant browser - Firefox is probably best if you're on a Mac - and *then* use the hacks you need for IE5, but only if you *really* need to. Good css shouldn't require much/many - if any. BTW, a couple of points about your markup: - Use margins/padding in your css to control paragraph spacing; all those br / tags are unnecessary. - Your LH nav is a list of links - use a ul to mark it up. Again, you can control vertical spacing between the links with your css - which is much more flexible than locking the links into p tags. See Russ Weakley's Listutorial http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/ for everything you ever wanted to know about lists. HTH Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ On Saturday, Aug 7, 2004, at 02:38 Australia/Sydney, Barry Cranmer wrote: http://orderlyspaces.com/fri86.html orderlyspaces.com/fri86.css The page displays as I would like it to in IE 5.2 on my Mac (G4 running OS X 10.2.8), but does not work properly in Safari, Firefox, Opera or AOL's. browser on Mac. The problem is that the content, beginning with the quote on the right overlaps the header in every browser I have available but IE. Mozilla on a PC yesterday had the same problem. (I don't have access to IE on a PC and have no idea yet what THAT mess might look like.) The quote and the top item of the menu pretty much line up horizontally in IE (Mac) and that's how I hope to make it work cross-platform and cross-browser. I'm new to css and I'm probably missing something simple or doing something completely backwards, but I'm stumped. I've tried using some suggested hacks and they have helped me get to this point, but I'm not sure I've got them right either. I would appreciate any guidance anyone could offer. Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Barry Cranmer ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
