RE: [WSG] making money out of web standards
I think you've hit on something with the thought below. It's easier to sell control than quicker loading, etc. People buy based on emotion and then justify that decision based on facts. Control is a strong buying motivator. Acceptance is another. One or the other motivator will work with most people. How can you tie standards based development to acceptance and/or respect? Name dropping works. X, Y, Z are all highly respected companies in your industry that successfully apply a standards based approach and they're some of the most highly respected organizations Looks at the non-standards sites of laughable A, B, and C. Point out a few problems. The subtext is that if they don't use standards on their site, their competitors and customers will laugh at them. For control oriented people, I'd never use the word compliance. They don't do things to comply to other's ideas of how something should be, they expect others to comply to their control. For them, I'd go with showing them how using standards increases their control over the look and quality of content. They can control any changes to their (use lots of you and your, site standards very easily w/o the expense and tedious slogging of changing each page individually. They can control who sees what, when, how. Christie Mason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Wong Chin Shin ... THEN, I show them how I can change the entire layout just by changing the CSS file ... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] making money out of web standards
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:08:30 +0800, Wong Chin Shin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) Designers, how would YOU approach selling this concept? Or would you? 2) Managers, what would catch YOUR attention in a pitch geared towards this? I'm not really either... but I can tell you that the company I work for lists standards compliance and accessibility in a small paragraph about halfway through our quotes - unless the quote is for a large organisation specifically concerned with accessibility (this happens occasionally) OR has asked for a standards-based redesign (this has happened once). We sell sites based on fulfilling the business needs of the organisation - that the web site will be fast-loading, satisfy relevant accessibility laws and work cross-browser is a given. Having said that, I know that there *are* companies out there who do market themselves from a web standards perspective. The biggest-seller in my experience is search engine optimisation. Many people have woken up to the fact that they need to be found in Google, and as Sir Zeldman says, Google is the blind billionare - who loves clean, semantic markup. Admittedly having good markup is not all you need to do for effective search engine optimisation, but it's certainly a good start, and also an awesome selling point. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies!
- Original Message - From: Lori Leach [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:21 AM Subject: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies! So, before heading this way for some help, I checked out the site on many platforms. http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/ http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/c/global.css Sorry Lori, But on my winXP machine [not SP2] the site misbehaves in FF1.0 - the right column appears underneath the left one! In IE6 etc it is fine. Please note that you get a bad 'flash of unstyled content' in IE5.5. Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] making money out of web standards
I agree on the control issue. Control is a strong selling point. However, most server-side technologies (ASP, PHP etc) can do this too. It won't be a fresh selling point. UNLESS, we approach it this way: To modify website templates using ASP and PHP, we need some pretty good programming knowledge. And to employ a programmer isn't exactly cheap. Using CSS to change the layout is not programming per se. In fact, it allows a design professional (who's not from a computing background) control over the layout without having to collaborate directly with programmer. And my following point would make sense to the Asian businessman (according to what I know). It also would drive a lot of designers in this list stark raving mad. In South-east Asia, designers are paid much less than programmers. It's an awful shame but it's a fact of life here. If we tell the decision maker that a site revamp in the future would only incur the costs of a designer and no programmer, his eyes would perk up. Guaranteed. To many people here, designers can design (ONLY). Programmers are reputed to be able to handle both (by virtue of being familiar with computers). Ok, so a programmer may not be able to come out with works of art, but hey, I just want a corporate-looking site. Banner on top, footer bottom, menu on the left yadda yadda. Mr programmer, you can do that, right? Ok I think I got my point across. Am I off-topic? Hmm... standards compliance - CSS-based layout - easy to maintain by designers... ok, as long as I don't go into a further rhetoric about how unfair life is to designers, I'm still on track *grin* Wong -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christie Mason Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:53 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] making money out of web standards I think you've hit on something with the thought below. It's easier to sell control than quicker loading, etc. People buy based on emotion and then justify that decision based on facts. Control is a strong buying motivator. Acceptance is another. One or the other motivator will work with most people. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] page not validating as xhtml 1.0 strict - explanation?
hi, the scenario: i want to place a div (containing two thumbnail images) into text (in a paragraph) with the text flowing around the div containing the thumbs. the test page at http://www.thorstenpeh.de/test/devhelp/notvalidating/index.html should illustrate what i mean. i have no problem achieving the desired effect (by placing the div inside the desired paragraph and floating the div right), but i don't understand why it doesn't validate. this is what the W3C-validator returns: Line 19, column 77: document type does not allow element div here; missing one of object, ins, del, map, button start-tag i know that one must put block elements inside inline elements with xhtml 1.0 strict, but this isn't the case here? paragraphs are block elements, as are divs. help's appreciated! -- Thorsten ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page not validating as xhtml 1.0 strict - explanation?
Thorsten wrote: i know that one must put block elements inside inline elements with xhtml 1.0 strict, but this isn't the case here? paragraphs are block elements, as are divs. Correction, you're not meant to put block elements inside inline, nor can you put block elements in block-level inline containers, such as p Replace the pdivimg/img//div/p with: pspanimg/img//span/p HTH -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page not validating as xhtml 1.0 strict - explanation?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:48:17 +0100, Thorsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi, snip Line 19, column 77: document type does not allow element div here; missing one of object, ins, del, map, button start-tagsnip snip With regard *only* to validation, Tidy Online http://infohound.net/tidy/ will find, and correct the error(s) that are in your HTML file. Best, David -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page not validating as xhtml 1.0 strict - explanation?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:48:17 +0100, Thorsten wrote: Line 19, column 77: document type does not allow element div here; missing one of object, ins, del, map, button start-tag The p tag is a peculiar beast; it cannot contain another block element, despite being a block element itself; it is implicitly closed when another block element is encountered. I believe your error is actually saying 'you didn't close the p tag' Try code along the lines of this tag outline: h2/h2 div div img img /div p/p /div HIH Lea Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] page not validating as xhtml 1.0 strict - explanation?
i know that one must put block elements inside inline elements with xhtml 1.0 strict, but this isn't the case here? paragraphs are block elements, as are divs. You got this other way round. It's: inline content inside block. p can go inside div, but div in p cannot. p must have inline contents. Use span, eventually with display: block; -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] making money out of web standards
I wanted to add that I've had success with small businesses by describing how easily their sites can be redesigned using CSS (show them CSS Zen Garden). If they've already gone through a redesign, they've been impressed. If not, and they are fearful of making mistakes with the first go, their fears can be alleviated. That, added to SEO optimization, works better than describing band width issues, for me. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Dec 29, 2004, at 5:53 AM, Wong Chin Shin wrote: I agree on the control issue. Control is a strong selling point. However, most server-side technologies (ASP, PHP etc) can do this too. It won't be a fresh selling point. UNLESS, we approach it this way: To modify website templates using ASP and PHP, we need some pretty good programming knowledge. And to employ a programmer isn't exactly cheap. Using CSS to change the layout is not programming per se. In fact, it allows a design professional (who's not from a computing background) control over the layout without having to collaborate directly with programmer. Wong
Re: [WSG] making money out of web standards
Separating content and layout made perfect sense to me as a programmer. XML/XSLT is good 'cos it allows me to modularize sections of a site without having to resort to server-side technologies. ...except server-side XSLT transformation, right? Because XSLT on client side is non-semantic, incompatible and hardly accessible. For the selling point: I show stylesheet switcher. Gives 'wow' effect, when client sees that webpage can be rebuilt with a single click. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies!
I made some changes to the menu per Philippe, and I not happy with the results. I can't get it to move up and it seems there are so many hacks in there I don't know which one to change to make it move. Here is that with his menu system implemented: http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/index2.htm http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/global2.css I want the menu system to be exactly like the one on www.adaptivepath.com except on the right of the design rather than the left. The implementation that was used in the original css is the one that they used with mods. They did not use UL, and they used floats. It works for them - why will it not for me. Or do you see problems with theirs too?? Now, on the font size, I showed the client the larger font size, and he does not like it. He wants it back like it was, small. He says that most of his visitors will be in the banking industry and not your normal passer by (thought I tried to explain the benefits) and he says that they will be able to read it. Here is the page with a larger font size (done in points) for all content, and a width now added to the right float. Does it still fall under the left side? http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/index.htm http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/global.css Lori Leach ZenfulCreations -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Philippe Wittenbergh Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] making money out of web standards
Sorry, don't really understand what you mean by your statement below. The XSL document may not be readable but the XML can be set to be as readable and descriptive as we want it to? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:13 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] making money out of web standards ...except server-side XSLT transformation, right? Because XSLT on client side is non-semantic, incompatible and hardly accessible. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies!
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:52:51 -0500, Lori Leach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is the page with a larger font size (done in points) for all content, and a width now added to the right float. Does it still fall under the left side? http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/index.htm http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/global.css Lori Leach ZenfulCreations Lori, XP_SP2 1280 optimal LCD FF Menu breaks right on 1st zoom click. Right coumn holds, and no longer breaks. Text in the 2 upper containers(right coloumn) breaks at bottom on 3rd zoom click. Opera7.54 Menu just starts to break right at 110%(one letter and pipe). Best, David -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies!
David, Thanks for looking... Apparently then there is nothing that I can do to keep the menu from breaking when you zoom as I have a fixed width design and not fluid. I am in a corner of sorts, as this is the layout he wants, refuses fluid, and this is the menu he wants. So I conclude that there is nothing I can do - right? Lori Leach ZenfulCreations -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Laakso Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:49 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies! On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:52:51 -0500, Lori Leach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is the page with a larger font size (done in points) for all content, and a width now added to the right float. Does it still fall under the left side? http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/index.htm http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/global.css Lori Leach ZenfulCreations Lori, XP_SP2 1280 optimal LCD FF Menu breaks right on 1st zoom click. Right coumn holds, and no longer breaks. Text in the 2 upper containers(right coloumn) breaks at bottom on 3rd zoom click. Opera7.54 Menu just starts to break right at 110%(one letter and pipe). Best, David -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies!
Lori, Dunno. I can test. However, I couldn't code my way out of a wet paper bag. David On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:50:04 -0500, Lori Leach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David, Thanks for looking... Apparently then there is nothing that I can do to keep the menu from breaking when you zoom as I have a fixed width design and not fluid. I am in a corner of sorts, as this is the layout he wants, refuses fluid, and this is the menu he wants. So I conclude that there is nothing I can do - right? Lori Leach ZenfulCreations -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Laakso Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:49 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies! On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:52:51 -0500, Lori Leach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is the page with a larger font size (done in points) for all content, and a width now added to the right float. Does it still fall under the left side? http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/index.htm http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/global.css Lori Leach ZenfulCreations Lori, XP_SP2 1280 optimal LCD FF Menu breaks right on 1st zoom click. Right coumn holds, and no longer breaks. Text in the 2 upper containers(right coloumn) breaks at bottom on 3rd zoom click. Opera7.54 Menu just starts to break right at 110%(one letter and pipe). Best, David -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies!
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:50:04 -0500, Lori Leach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David, Thanks for looking... Apparently then there is nothing that I can do to keep the menu from breaking when you zoom as I have a fixed width design and not fluid. I am in a corner of sorts, as this is the layout he wants, refuses fluid, and this is the menu he wants. So I conclude that there is nothing I can do - right? Lori Leach ZenfulCreations Lori, Dunno. I can test-- however, I couldn't code my way out of a wet paper bag. I'd be willing to bet someone else on the list will be able to resolve this. David -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] XSLT on client-side (was: making money out of web standards)
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:48:05 +0800, Wong Chin Shin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, don't really understand what you mean by your statement below. The XSL document may not be readable but the XML can be set to be as readable and descriptive as we want it to? XML has no semantics. Your custom markup won't be compatible with anything. Without XSLT transformation to [X]HTML it is meaningless to any software. XSLT is not supported by web spiders and by many browsers. AFAIK using XSLT on client-side limits you to IE6 and Gecko browsers *only*. Everyone else gets unusable page. XSLT is a great technology, and there is one simple step to make it absolutelty compatible - transform on the server-side. If you output [X]HTML you're going to be compatible with almost every single web client out there. I think that XSLT + XML won't save much (if anything) compared to resulting XHTML. In terms of bandwidth: XML already adds markup to your data. XSLT is very verbose, and stylesheet will probably take as much as extra data it could generate. Without HTTP pipelining (in IE6) 2 small files usually load slower than one larger. XSLT gives savings when it generates lots of repetitive data, but then HTTP compression is so much better in eliminating repetition. I don't think that XSLT saves server cpu either. If you have static data you can transform it once and serve XHTML. If you have dynamic data you have to build DOM tree anyway. If you absolutely don't want to waste any cpu cycle on transformation, you can generate XML data using XHTML tags. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] making money out of web standards
Wong Chin Shin wrote: Sorry, don't really understand what you mean by your statement below. The XSL document may not be readable but the XML can be set to be as readable and descriptive as we want it to? I think what Kornel meant (with some possible elucidations from me) was that XML/XSLT, while theoretically can be sent directly to the client, in practice is unreliable do to lack of support or incompatible support. The only reliable way to do transformations from XML to XHTML today is to do the transformations server side and send the client only the final XHTML product. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] XSLT on client-side (was: making money out of web standards)
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:09:05 -, Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... XML has no semantics. That's quite bold statement. No markup languages has any semantics then. Did you mean default styling for certain elements? Your custom markup won't be compatible with anything. Without XSLT transformation to [X]HTML it is meaningless to any software Do you say XML is unusable without XSLT? And - XHML IS XML. Regards, Rimantas ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] XSLT on client-side (was: making money out of web standards)
Hi, I think what was meant actually is that without a Schema document, there's no semantic meaning to it. The semantic meaning is brought about by a Schema, in this case an XSD. Wong -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rimantas Liubertas Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 1:16 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] XSLT on client-side (was: making money out of web standards) On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:09:05 -, Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... XML has no semantics. That's quite bold statement. No markup languages has any semantics then. Did you mean default styling for certain elements? Your custom markup won't be compatible with anything. Without XSLT transformation to [X]HTML it is meaningless to any software Do you say XML is unusable without XSLT? And - XHML IS XML. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] XSLT on client-side (was: making money out of web standards)
Hi Kornel, Thanks for the clarification. While I'm going to have to study more to verify what you said, all you said does make sense so far. That said, I figure that maintaining website constants (e.g. main menu information, site headers and footers etc) using XML when you do not want/have access to server-side technologies such as ASP. At worst, XML files can be an inefficient database replacement of sorts. Won't attempt at going any further as I don't think I'm talking about web standards at any length. Wong -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 1:09 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] XSLT on client-side (was: making money out of web standards) On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:48:05 +0800, Wong Chin Shin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, don't really understand what you mean by your statement below. The XSL document may not be readable but the XML can be set to be as readable and descriptive as we want it to? XML has no semantics. Your custom markup won't be compatible with anything. Without XSLT transformation to [X]HTML it is meaningless to any software. XSLT is not supported by web spiders and by many browsers. AFAIK using XSLT on client-side limits you to IE6 and Gecko browsers *only*. Everyone else gets unusable page. XSLT is a great technology, and there is one simple step to make it absolutelty compatible - transform on the server-side. If you output [X]HTML you're going to be compatible with almost every single web client out there. I think that XSLT + XML won't save much (if anything) compared to resulting XHTML. In terms of bandwidth: XML already adds markup to your data. XSLT is very verbose, and stylesheet will probably take as much as extra data it could generate. Without HTTP pipelining (in IE6) 2 small files usually load slower than one larger. XSLT gives savings when it generates lots of repetitive data, but then HTTP compression is so much better in eliminating repetition. I don't think that XSLT saves server cpu either. If you have static data you can transform it once and serve XHTML. If you have dynamic data you have to build DOM tree anyway. If you absolutely don't want to waste any cpu cycle on transformation, you can generate XML data using XHTML tags. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies!
Lori Leach wrote: Apparently then there is nothing that I can do to keep the menu from breaking when you zoom as I have a fixed width design and not fluid. I am in a corner of sorts, as this is the layout he wants, refuses fluid, and this is the menu he wants. So I conclude that there is nothing I can do - right? Lori, There is a lot you can do-- if you think it's worth the extra work. That's up to you, of course, but it may pay of on a later job. I've had a look at this one, without really looking into the code / css. http://www.zenfulcreations.com/sites/sss/index.htm It is a fine looking page, but it is a bit weak... :-) Fixed width isn't really a problem-- if the content can use the height for readjustments when we zoom text of force a minimum font size. Containers with no set height, or a min-height / IE/win height-hack set, would take up a lot of adjustment before anything would break or overflow. We don't use hacks to make web pages work across browserland - we use standard css for standard-compliant browsers. Only old browsers like IE/win is in need of hacks in most layouts. That's why many of us trim IE/win last, when all the standard-compliant browsers presents a web page styled as we like it. If you use IE/win as design-default, then you should at least test with IE's accessibility-options. IE/win can ignore your font sizes, and a web page should survive that option since it is one of the few options IE/win users have (although few are aware of it). It doesn't have to look perfect though. The same with the standard-compliant browsers like Opera, FF and Safari. Things will have to move away from pixel-perfection when we use text zoom options, but it's alright as long as the page can take it. Personally I zoom text on all web pages to at least 200%, and use minimum font size = 28px as a sort of benchmark. What font size the page has doesn't matter all that much if it can take this test. Few pages on the web can, and few will need to go this far. Those two images with text on top, in the right column, can't adjust of course, and because containers have fixed height there, the text will overlap if I change font size too much in a standard compliant browser. IE6 just pushes everything downwards, which at least keeps the text readable. Improvements are possible there. The footer has a similar, fixed, height-problem if I zoom text. In IE6 the height expands and the background-image repeats, so the text becomes dark on dark background. In the standard-compliant browsers the text overflows downwards. Should also be possible to improve on. There is a strange thing with the width on that page though, as its visible and centering part is less than 780px wide-- but it creates a scrollbar just below 1000px width. What makes your nav-bar act strange on text zoom is that the nav-bar expands outside the visible page-border, and into this extra space at the right side. If the page's real width was the same as the visible page, then the nav-bar would adjust into two lines-- which it does if I zoom high enough. That doesn't really break the page, and is something that is worth looking into. Plenty to do-- or ignore. :-) regards Georg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Critique
Is it just me, or is the font size used for the posts, huge? I dont have the best eyesight on the planet, and am using a 1280 x 1024 resolution on a TFT, and the font seems awfully big to me in IE6 at text size medium. It looks ok in Opera 7.54, but still seems rather large in FF1.0. The post text keeps it's width in IE6 and Opera 7.54, but takes up the whole screen in FF1.0. It looks better in IE6 and Opera imho. Julia On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:32:18 -0600, Collin Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey y'all, I just redid my personal blog, moving from movabletype to wordpress, and wanted some critique on design. There are a few things up front I'm going to change. The odd line under the header image for one, shortening the dotted lines around the storyline text for another. The link is: http://collind.myftp.org/blog/ Any suggestions? Thanks, Collin Davis Web Architect Stromberg Architectural Products p 903.454.0904 f 903.454.3642 e mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://www.strombergarchitectural.com www.strombergarchitectural.com -- http://www.jewelswebgraphics.com/ for all your web design needs. Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Critique
Julia, Thanks for the input - I've now become a dot com though (collind.com), and am moving everything over to there, and I'm thinking now about completely redoing the design. I'll keep in mind the text size issues you mentioned. Thanks again! Collin Davis Web Architect Stromberg Architectural Products p 903.454.0904 f 903.454.3642 e [EMAIL PROTECTED] web www.strombergarchitectural.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] XSLT on client-side (was: making money out of web standards)
Won't attempt at going any further as I don't think I'm talking about web standards at any length. XML and XSLT are W3C standards :) If you don't have server-side technologies available, then you may transform your XML using (offline) shell script and upload XHTML to server. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Browser Check - such inconsistencies!
Thank You Georg and everyone for your help. Georg, I will use much of what you have said to correct the pages. Again, thank you. The link for this however will no longer work, as the SEC needs to approve the content for them prior to publish, and I can't have it on my server for any length of time. Agian, thank you so much for your time and expertise. Lori Leach ZenfulCreations ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Critique
Julia wrote: On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:32:18 -0600, Collin Davis wrote: I just redid my personal blog, moving from movabletype to wordpress, and wanted some critique on design. There are a few things up front I'm going to change. The odd line under the header image for one, shortening the dotted lines around the storyline text for another. The link is: http://collind.myftp.org/blog/ Is it just me, or is the font size used for the posts, huge? I dont have the best eyesight on the planet, and am using a 1280 x 1024 resolution on a TFT, and the font seems awfully big to me in IE6 at text size medium. Sounds like typical IE inheritance trouble easily solved. First wiki paragraph explains easy solution: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BrowserBugs -- I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.John 14:6 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] making money out of web standards
Wong Chin Shin wrote: Sorry, don't really understand what you mean by your statement below. The XSL document may not be readable but the XML can be set to be as readable and descriptive as we want it to? Search engines, browsers, etc will treat your XML merely as a plain text document, as they won't understand the schema and/or dtd you're using. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Re: stylesheet switching in IE6
Title: Re: stylesheet switching in IE6
Ijust cracked it, IE was chocking on the lang=en statement inside div lang=en class=en (in the XHTML code) in combination with this statement div:lang(en) in the style sheet.
I remembered that IE doesn't suppport pseudo classes on anything but an anchor.
Changing it to this:
XHTML:
div class=nl
pdutch tect here/p
/div
CSS:
div.nl { display: none; }
div.en { display: block; }`
solved it instantly ;-)
Thanks again,
Erwin.
[WSG] Site Review: e-oddie.com
Hi all, Im now reasonably confident that the redesign of http://www.e-oddie.com/ is now nearing completion, and would appreciate a review both from a standards approach and a design approach. Things to note: http://www.e-oddie.com/ should be compliant it is part of the redesign http://www.e-oddie.com/sydneylife/ has some XHTML validation errors due to the way ASP.Net writes out its server-side forms. I am writing a reusable server module to fix this, although it isnt easy and will take a while. So, any form related violations please ignore them for now. http://www.e-oddie.com/blog/professional/ (linked to throughout the site as Geeky Stuff) hasnt be redesigned and it generated by a blogging tool. Ill get on to this next, once I have finished the rest. That way I can copy-paste a lot of CSS and keep it consistent. Also, some checks in other browsers would be appreciated. I have yet to get my Virtual PC image running, so I only have IE6 and FF1 on WinXP to test with. Thanks in advance! Tatham Oddie http://www.e-oddie.com/
Re: [WSG] Re: stylesheet switching in IE6
Erwin Heiser wrote: Ijust cracked it, IE was chocking on the lang=en statement inside div lang=en class=en (in the XHTML code) in combination with this statement div:lang(en) in the style sheet. I remembered that IE doesn't suppport pseudo classes on anything but an anchor. For what it's worth, though, attribute selectors are not written like that. It should have been: div[lang=en] See http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/selector.html#attribute-selectors -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Review: e-oddie.com
Well, at least you're not telling me about how painful it is to be on this really old Mac anymore. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish with the lead page, but it isn't centered in my browser, and has a vertical scroll bar to boot. Sydney Life is also broken. Again this is IE for the Mac, so you probably don't care about me anyway, since that seems to be the general consensus of the web these days...whine... Really old Mac OS 9.2.2/IE 5.1.7 Wayne ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Review: e-oddie.com
Hi there! Nice site! But why do you use this in the HOMEPAGE ? table id=layoutgrid summary=> tr> td > You don't need tables in there! Remove that table and your done ! -- Atentamente, Jorge Laranjo site > http://thetaoofwebdesign.tk/ email> [EMAIL PROTECTED] msn > [EMAIL PROTECTED] aim > [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Em 29/dez/2004, s 21:55, Tatham Oddie escreveu: x-tad-biggerHi all,/x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerIm now reasonably confident that the redesign of /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerhttp://www.e-oddie.com//x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger is now nearing completion, and would appreciate a review both from a standards approach and a design approach./x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerThings to note:/x-tad-bigger x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerhttp://www.e-oddie.com//x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger should be compliant it is part of the redesign/x-tad-bigger x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerhttp://www.e-oddie.com/sydneylife//x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger has some XHTML validation errors due to the way ASP.Net writes out its server-side forms. I am writing a reusable server module to fix this, although it isnt easy and will take a while. So, any form related violations please ignore them for now./x-tad-bigger x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerhttp://www.e-oddie.com/blog/professional//x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger (linked to throughout the site as Geeky Stuff) hasnt be redesigned and it generated by a blogging tool. Ill get on to this next, once I have finished the rest. That way I can copy-paste a lot of CSS and keep it consistent./x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerAlso, some checks in other browsers would be appreciated. I have yet to get my Virtual PC image running, so I only have IE6 and FF1 on WinXP to test with./x-tad-bigger x-tad-bigger/x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerThanks in advance!/x-tad-bigger x-tad-bigger/x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerTatham Oddie/x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerhttp://www.e-oddie.com//x-tad-bigger
Re: [WSG] Web Design Theory Question: CSS only or Illustrator/Photoshop to CSS?
I agree with Lea! Paper Photoshop (or other editor) XHTML and CSS template PHP (or JSP) and that's it! -- Atentamente, Jorge Laranjo site http://thetaoofwebdesign.tk/ email [EMAIL PROTECTED] msn [EMAIL PROTECTED] aim [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Em 28/dez/2004, às 03:09, Lea de Groot escreveu: On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:13:28 -0500, Anthony Zeoli wrote: Are designers still designing full site templates in Illustrator, then porting them over to Photoshop to tweak the graphics, exporting Fireworks for slicing and saving to .gif and .jpg/png, then placing those images using CSS positioning. I have a programming background, and my preferred workflow is as follows: paper layouts, photoshop implementations, html/css template, then php generating code. I find if I skip the photoshop time, I spend too long getting the html working when I am not yet completely clear on what I want. Other workflows will work for other people :) HIH Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: stylesheet switching in IE6
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:36:26 +, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erwin Heiser wrote: Ijust cracked it, IE was chocking on the lang=en statement inside div lang=en class=en (in the XHTML code) in combination with this statement div:lang(en) in the style sheet. I remembered that IE doesn't suppport pseudo classes on anything but an anchor. For what it's worth, though, attribute selectors are not written like that. Sure, because they are not attribute selectors. Same document you mentioned defines lang pseudo-class: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/selector.html#lang Ofcourse IE doesn't support this either. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] XSLT on client-side (was: making money out of web standards)
I've got to say I completely agree with Kornel here - XSLT is very useful, but keep it on the server side. Its all about what you send over the wire. By all means create XML (schemas) for your own use in your own applications - these may have very precise semantic meaning in your environment, but they are truly meaningless in the wild. Perform your transformations at your end and send your content over the wire in some widely understood vocabulary such as HTML/XHTML. Arguments about bandwidth are really not relevant in this context. I could, for example, send all my content through to the browser in a special XYZ format that I have devised and that happens to work in a couple of browsers. This format may have huge advantages in terms of bandwidth and rendering time, but it is still a Very Bad Idea (TM) because it breaks the whole concept of web standards. Optimise your bandwidth by all means, but draw the line at sending non-standard formats (like proprietary XML vocabularies) over the wire. On another note, personally I'm a little tired of people thinking of HTML/CSS as the *only* web standards - it is so much broader than that. HTTP, ECMA Script, P3P, SVG (and to a lesser extent XSL) are all true web standards and are completely relevant on this list, IMHO. -- Mark Stanton Gruden Pty Ltd http://www.gruden.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Spam: RE: [WSG] making money out of web standards
Wong wrote: Ok, so a programmer may not be able to come out with works of art, but hey, I just want a corporate-looking site. Banner on top, footer bottom, menu on the left yadda yadda. Mr programmer, you can do that, right? No, go read How Do People Evaluate a Web Site's Credibility? Results from a Large Study http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/news/report3_credibilityresearch/stanfordPTL_abstract.htm I have started using that report to get programmers who think they can design - out of any design work. A well designed site is far more credible than a poorly designed site. Bob Regan from Macromedia's accessibility guru at a presentation a couple of years back said something like if you want to sell the advantages of accessibility/CSS/XHTML point the client to http://www.csszengarden.com/ because it is sexy and sex sells Nick This email is from the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection and any information or attachments to it may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please reply mail to the sender informing them of the error and delete all copies from your computer system, including attachments and your reply email. As the information is confidential you must not disclose, copy or use it in any manner. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Site Review: e-oddie.com
Jorge, Id LOVE to remove that table (as the HTML comments above it also state) however I never found a way. You may/may not have noticed a separate thread on this list a few days ago where we attempted to do it with a simple div solution, but never got there. I need to somehow vertically and horizontally center the image, then vertically center the text on top of it. If you have a solution Id gladly implement it. Thanks, Tatham Oddie From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jorge Laranjo Sent: Thursday, 30 December 2004 10:03 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Review: e-oddie.com Hi there! Nice site! But why do you use this in the HOMEPAGE ? table id=layoutgrid summary= tr td You don't need tables in there! Remove that table and your done ! -- Atentamente, Jorge Laranjo site http://thetaoofwebdesign.tk/ email [EMAIL PROTECTED] msn [EMAIL PROTECTED] aim [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Em 29/dez/2004, às 21:55, Tatham Oddie escreveu: Hi all, Im now reasonably confident that the redesign of http://www.e-oddie.com/ is now nearing completion, and would appreciate a review both from a standards approach and a design approach. Things to note: http://www.e-oddie.com/ should be compliant it is part of the redesign http://www.e-oddie.com/sydneylife/ has some XHTML validation errors due to the way ASP.Net writes out its server-side forms. I am writing a reusable server module to fix this, although it isnt easy and will take a while. So, any form related violations please ignore them for now. http://www.e-oddie.com/blog/professional/ (linked to throughout the site as Geeky Stuff) hasnt be redesigned and it generated by a blogging tool. Ill get on to this next, once I have finished the rest. That way I can copy-paste a lot of CSS and keep it consistent. Also, some checks in other browsers would be appreciated. I have yet to get my Virtual PC image running, so I only have IE6 and FF1 on WinXP to test with. Thanks in advance! Tatham Oddie http://www.e-oddie.com/
[WSG] Semantic markup for object dimensions/units
Hi list, Any thoughts on semantic markup for object dimensions? For example works of art; height x width x depth 400mm x 800mm x 200mm Could be two parts to this, markup to indicate dimensions (that the 'x' is mathematical: 'by'), and that 'mm' is an abbreviation of a standard unit. (aside from abbr title=millimetersmm/abbr). Any cultural institution web folk out there with experience in this area? Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director MOTIVE | web.design.integrity Wellington, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Web Design in 2005
Good evening all, I found an interesting article posted on a site, Forty Media that has posted their predictions on web design trends for the coming year. They suggested that the looks that are out, or dated are, ...Retro; Swiss/Euro; Minimal; that standards-compliant look, which I thought some of you might find an interesting read. http://www.fortymedia.com/2005-web-design-forecast.fhtml Respectfully submitted, Mario S. Cisneros, President WebNet Design Studios, LLC ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web Design in 2005
On 12/29/04 10:17 PM [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: They suggested that the looks that are out, or dated are, ...Retro; Swiss/Euro; Minimal; that standards-compliant look, which I thought some of you might find an interesting read. http://www.fortymedia.com/2005-web-design-forecast.fhtml Very interesting read. Thanks I agree about the web standards look. It's generally very tired and bland. Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site review
Im sure all the standards type stuff is in order so I won't comment on that. From a design point of view, the otiginal, as bad as it is contains a little more personality. The redesign, whilst contry in its colours, could be for a bed and breakfast? You could do a little to incorporate some country music flair to the site, a little less beige and a little more yeehaw! Other wise a vast improvement on the original. Cheers Pete ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
