Re: [WSG] Site check - lastminute.com
On 24/5/05 4:43 PM, Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/23/05 11:33 PM Kevin Futter [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: I can't speak for all browsers, but I do find it annoying that Firefox on Windows has the print preview option, but Firefox on the Mac does not (latest versions). Makes it hard to recommend for verifying print output (assuming it would be at all accurate in the first place). On FF Mac, just choose File Print and then click on Preview button. No? Hth, Rick Faaberg Actually, that's correct, but more a function of OS X than FF. Still, thanks for reminding me, and apologies for straying off-topic. Kevin -- Kevin Futter Webmaster, St. Bernard's College http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] valid flash?
OK, I'm getting a bit confused and I need help from someone with a clear head! I've been comparing the method of getting valid flash suggested by Simon Jessey with that suggested by Bert Doorn. You can see a simple test page of the two, running side by side, at www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk/flash/ What surprises me is that the non flash content in the Jessey example works when it's not IE you are using (certainly when it's Opera 8, which is the only browser I use with plugins blocked). I'm also confused by the fact that the browsercam report shows that, in IE6, the flash plays even when the player is not installed! see: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=165429 So, my question: Which is 'best' - Jessey or Doorn? And, if one or both of them work without real problems, isn't that a big step forward that we should all know about? What are your feelings/findings? Thanks for any fog-clearing input on this:-) Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] EDS embracing Web Standards
Had cause to visit the EDS.com web site tonight. I used to work for them years ago. They had one of those absolutely horrible corporate sites last time I visited, but shock horror... http://www.eds.com/site/standards.aspx AMAZING. Regards Geoff Deering ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] valid flash?
G'day OK, I'm getting a bit confused and I need help from someone with a clear head! I haven't got one of those - it's full of grey matter (some of it sticking out ;-) However... What surprises me is that the non flash content in the Jessey example works when it's not IE you are using (certainly when it's Opera 8, which is the only browser I use with plugins blocked). No surprise really... !--[if !IE] -- To browsers other than IE it's just a one line comment. !-- comment -- I'm also confused by the fact that the browsercam report shows that, in IE6, the flash plays even when the player is not installed! Suggest you take that up with BrowserCam - someone accidentally installed Flash on that machine? In IE with high security settings (to block flash, among other things), I get only ONE flash not installed message. Perhaps IE in high security mode doesn't honour IE conditional comments. Try it with this version, which has two different not installed messages: http://www.bwdzine.com/flash.html If this is true, and all else being equal, the simpler version may be better, as IE users with high security settings still get alternative content. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A way to skip a Flash-intro if Flash is not installed?
Hi I wrote an article about Flash Player detection techniques, located at Sitepoint. http://www.sitepoint.com/article/techniques-unearthed One of the sections involves implementation of object tags, there is also some Javascript bizzo. This may hopefully assist you. Note: it was written in 2003, I'm sure the code could be rewritten much better now. Cheers James ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
I've created a pared down example to illustrate a problem I'm having with floats. My confusion suggests that I'm missing some basic concept of how floats behave and I'm finding it frustrating... http://www.capstrat.com/development/test-float.html In this example, all code is wrapped with a containing div (yellow background). The two side-bar divs live (code-wise) just before the content div (dark grey backround), just inside the container div and are floated right. The pull-quote (violet background) is the first thing inside of the content div. I'm expecting this to look the way that IE renders it: sidebars to the right, pull-quoute in the upper-left corner of the content div. In Firefox, the pullquote drops within the content to clear the first sidebar. Why? Can someone give me a little guidance on this? Scott Reston Raleigh, NC, USA www.capstrat.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
Hi, Scott You have to put your quote before all like : div class=pullquoteppull-quote text/p/div div class=sidebarpsidebar item 1. sidebar item 1. sidebar item 1. /p/div div class=sidebarpsidebar item 2. sidebar item 2. sidebar item 2. /p/div div id=content pUt labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ullamco laboris nisi lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, velit esse cillum dolore. Ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat./p ... /div /div And give a width for your pullquote div. Cheers! Angela -Message d'origine- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] la part de Scott Reston Envoyé : mercredi 25 mai 2005 16:51 À : wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Objet : [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment I've created a pared down example to illustrate a problem I'm having with floats. My confusion suggests that I'm missing some basic concept of how floats behave and I'm finding it frustrating... http://www.capstrat.com/development/test-float.html In this example, all code is wrapped with a containing div (yellow background). The two side-bar divs live (code-wise) just before the content div (dark grey backround), just inside the container div and are floated right. The pull-quote (violet background) is the first thing inside of the content div. I'm expecting this to look the way that IE renders it: sidebars to the right, pull-quoute in the upper-left corner of the content div. In Firefox, the pullquote drops within the content to clear the first sidebar. Why? Can someone give me a little guidance on this? Scott Reston Raleigh, NC, USA www.capstrat.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
Scott, Sorry, I was too rushy. Don't move your quote. Just give it a width and float left your content div. -Message d'origine- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] la part de Scott Reston Envoyé : mercredi 25 mai 2005 16:51 À : wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Objet : [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment I've created a pared down example to illustrate a problem I'm having with floats. My confusion suggests that I'm missing some basic concept of how floats behave and I'm finding it frustrating... http://www.capstrat.com/development/test-float.html In this example, all code is wrapped with a containing div (yellow background). The two side-bar divs live (code-wise) just before the content div (dark grey backround), just inside the container div and are floated right. The pull-quote (violet background) is the first thing inside of the content div. I'm expecting this to look the way that IE renders it: sidebars to the right, pull-quoute in the upper-left corner of the content div. In Firefox, the pullquote drops within the content to clear the first sidebar. Why? Can someone give me a little guidance on this? Scott Reston Raleigh, NC, USA www.capstrat.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
Scott Reston wrote: In Firefox, the pullquote drops within the content to clear the first sidebar. Why? Put your 2 sidebar (do not float them anymore) into a container that you float right, and give it a width (pullquote needs a width too). That should do it. Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Put your 2 sidebar (do not float them anymore) into a container that you float right, and give it a width (pullquote needs a width too). Of course, I meant the content of your sidebar DIVs not the whole DIVs. So you're adding one DIV but remove 2. Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
On Wed, 25 May 2005 10:51:14 -0400, Scott Reston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've created a pared down example to illustrate a problem I'm having with floats. My confusion suggests that I'm missing some basic concept of how floats behave and I'm finding it frustrating... http://www.capstrat.com/development/test-float.html Make #content first in the source order: div id=wrapper div id=content div class=pullquote ppull-quote/p /div pconsequat./p /div div class=sidebar psideba/p /div div class=sidebar psidebar/p /div /div Float #content left, add width to .pullquote, height to #wrapper. Best, David Laakso -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
I'm no expert, but the following is the best explanation I've come across: http://nemesis1.f2o.org/aarchive?id=11 Hope it helps. Bruce Prochnau BKSesign Solutions - Original Message - From: David Laakso [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment On Wed, 25 May 2005 10:51:14 -0400, Scott Reston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've created a pared down example to illustrate a problem I'm having with floats. My confusion suggests that I'm missing some basic concept of how floats behave and I'm finding it frustrating... http://www.capstrat.com/development/test-float.html Make #content first in the source order: div id=wrapper div id=content div class=pullquote ppull-quote/p /div pconsequat./p /div div class=sidebar psideba/p /div div class=sidebar psidebar/p /div /div Float #content left, add width to .pullquote, height to #wrapper. Best, David Laakso -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A way to skip a Flash-intro if Flash is not installed?
Thanks James - exactly what I was looking for! Kristian On 5/25/05, James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi I wrote an article about Flash Player detection techniques, located at Sitepoint. http://www.sitepoint.com/article/techniques-unearthed One of the sections involves implementation of object tags, there is also some Javascript bizzo. This may hopefully assist you. Note: it was written in 2003, I'm sure the code could be rewritten much better now. Cheers James ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Free Software Foundation associate member #3080 Protect your freedom by joining: http://member.fsf.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
I've received a couple of good suggestions... thanks! The easiest fix appears to be (as Ricci suggested) to put the pull-quote first, before all of the other items. That bugs me on a semantics basis, though, since I consider the pull-quote as part of the content... also, it might be impractical based on the CMS-editable 'block' on the page. David's suggestion keeps things together semantically, but once I float my content, it gets removed from the flow, making it outstretch its wrapper div (at least in standards-compliant browsers). I'd like to avoid keeping the sidebar as one big item because of the way my content is organized... the sidebars will likely be separate cross-sells. If I wrap the divs in one big div, I still see the same issue. ** The thing I'm most interested in, though, is the WHY? I want to understand the rule that I've run afoul of so that I can avoid it in the future. ** I'm not getting 'float drop' caused by a too-wide element being forced down (least I don't think that's the case...) What nature of floats am I missing? Shouldn't the floated pull-quote float within its container and ignore the sidebar's dimensions? S:R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ricci Angela Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:13 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment Hi, Scott You have to put your quote before all like : div class=pullquoteppull-quote text/p/div div class=sidebarpsidebar item 1. sidebar item 1. sidebar item 1. /p/div div class=sidebarpsidebar item 2. sidebar item 2. sidebar item 2. /p/div div id=content pUt labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ullamco laboris nisi lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, velit esse cillum dolore. Ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat./p ... /div /div ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Can we 'font-size-adjust' anything anywhere?
Font-size is still an issue, even if we agree to disagree about most of it. :-) The 'font-size' vs. 'font-family' can, and do, create some really wild results across the web, and 'font-size-adjust' doesn't seem to work anywhere -- or does it? (Opera 8 - CSS - font-size-adjust = not implemented) The facts (I think) is here: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/fonts.html#font-size-props ...but a *working* solution isn't clear to me. I was working on these issues a couple of years ago, but lack of browser-support made me give up. A working solution would mean that browser-options like minimum font size should take 'x-height' into account, and that 'x-height' should be the actual font-size we define for our pages when a 'font-size-adjust' factor is included -- no matter if we define font-size in px or em or ex or percentages. Sounds like a mess, but ok. As it is now: a minimum font size of 16px (or whatever) ends up looking like something completely different, depending on 'font-family'. It's a pretty wide range -- 50-150% and more of preferred size, and not all pages survive well. I've found plenty of examples, so I don't think we need more of those. I haven't found any practical solutions though. Just to make sure I haven't missed anything - do anyone have some/any working solutions for 'font-size-adjust' at hand? regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] @media conference
Hi All I hope this isn't off topic. I will be heading to London soon for the @media conference. http://www.atmedia2005.co.uk/ I'm wondering who else may be attending. Perhaps we can share information about lodging, transportation, goals, etc. If you would like to correspond, you could send me an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and I will set up a group list. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
Scott Reston wrote: sidebars will likely be separate cross-sells. If I wrap the divs in one big div, I still see the same issue. Are you sure? I just tried it and it seems to work just fine. The thing I'm most interested in, though, is the WHY? I want to Did you check the BugZilla database? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/query.cgi?format=advanced Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
On Wed, 25 May 2005 10:51:14 -0400, Scott Reston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've created a pared down example to illustrate a problem I'm having with floats. My confusion suggests that I'm missing some basic concept of how floats behave and I'm finding it frustrating... http://www.capstrat.com/development/test-float.html Scott, Please see if this meets your requirements-- puts content first in source order. Sorry, can't help on theory-- I'm a student at the school of trial and error. I seek enlightenment , too. http://www.dlaakso.com/simple-two-column.html Best, David -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
Scott Reston schrieb:
... If I
wrap the divs in one big div, I still see the same issue.
The thing I'm most interested in, though, is the WHY? I want to
understand the rule that I've run afoul of so that I can avoid it in the
future.
I'm not getting 'float drop' caused by a too-wide element being forced
down (least I don't think that's the case...) What nature of floats am I
missing? Shouldn't the floated pull-quote float within its container and
ignore the sidebar's dimensions?
No.
You might accept that IE don't get floating correct. The situation in IE
is completely different from other browsers, because the #content at the
left has a dimension, a width, so the element gains layout: no float
outside of this layout element can interfere with the content inside
this layout element, and no clear inside this element will interfere
with the floats outside (place a clear: both at pullquote, and you won't
see any effect, compare the result with the other browsers). So, in IE,
the pull-quote floats within its container as if there was no other
float outside of the layout element. If you want to learn how floats are
working, it's a good idea to switch to a compliant browser.
Now, to the real browsers: Note that the left float is at the same level
with the last preceding floating sidebar.
..sidebar { width: 190px; float: right; clear: both; ... }
#content { width: 300px; ...}
.pullquote { width: 150px; float: left; ...}
div class=sidebar.../div //no.1
div class=sidebar.../div //no.2
div id=content
div class=pullquote.../div // sits at the same level as no.2
...
...
/div
This is float Rule 5: A floating element's top may not be higher than
the top of any earlier floating or block level element. This rule, if
respected [1], simply won't let your left floating pullquote flow up.
Once accepted, the next question could be: Ok, but why does the content
starts at top=0, isn't the clear:right in the second sidebar container
preventing this?
No. Clearing does not stop floating. Clear:right, applied to the sidebar
no.2, just don't allow any right floating element to the right side of
this sidebarno.2, nothing else.
Now the sidebar no.2 drops under sidebar no.1. Both have still
float:right, that means, the #content will flow to the left side of
both as high as possible.
The next question could be: why can the text move up, but the preceding
left float pullquote itself does not move up? Why does the pullquote not
stop the content? The answer is that floats are taken out of the normal
page flow, and the text just respects the float:left of the pullquote
and the float:right of the sidebars, and moves up between them.
One solution of your layout problem, as mentioned before, is to unfloat
(!) the sidebars and to wrap them in a right-floated container:
#rightside {float: right; width: 190px; }
.sidebar {background-color: rgb(102, 204, 255); margin-top: 5px; }
div id=rightside
div class=sidebar.../div
div class=sidebar.../div
/div
div id=content
div class=pullquote.../div
...
...
/div
Ingo
[1] Opera7.54, but not Op8, goes for float Rule 8 and places the
pullquote float as high as possible=next to the first right float.
This looks similar to the situation in IE6, but is completely different,
again, try to clear pullquote to see.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] the mysteries of float - i seek enlightenment
Ingo Chao wrote: This is float Rule 5: A floating element's top may not be higher than the top of any earlier floating or block level element. I knew how to fix the issue, but I was missing the big picture. So thanks for that piece of information Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] EDS embracing Web Standards
Either these guys did the design, or your old employers stole their 'standards' page directly from here: http://www.figdesign.com/site.html I love running corporate standards BS through Google -- then you can see where it really came from ;) Andrew. http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
On 5/24/05, Ben Curtis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dl class=postalAddress dtCanada/dt dd class=companyIn The Game, Inc./dd dd class=divisionCustomer Service/dd dd class=street1135 West Beaver Creek Road Box #604/dd dd class=cityRichmond Hill/dd dd class=stateON/dd dd class=postalCodeL4B 1C0/dd /dl picky type=semantics I think that one would have to qualify as improper use of a dl. The method I use to decide on the appropriate use of dl is to say 'equals' in between the dt and each dd. Now let's apply that to your use: 'Canada equals In The Game, Inc' ...no it doesn't 'Canada equals Customer Service' ...no it doesn't 'Canada equals ON' ...ummm, the other way around, perhaps. and so on. /picky Andrew. --- http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Andrew and all sorry about jeopardy quoting. I'm leaving the below in for context This is the ideal situation for a microformat, an emerging and exciting way of adding richer semantics to HTML within the existing standard http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/MicroFormats The hCard (based on the IETF vCard format) may well suit your purposes. Based on my experience at South by Southwest, and the recent WWW2005 where I was involved in the Microformats Developer Day, I believe this is going to be significant. Tantek Çelik, formerly at Microsoft (IE5 for Mac), now at Technorati, is one of the drivers of microformats, along with Eric Meyer. Both will be speaking at Web Essentials later in the year, and I've little doubt Microformats will be on the agenda there. John On 26/05/2005, at 1:32 PM, Andrew Krespanis wrote: On 5/24/05, Ben Curtis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dl class=postalAddress dtCanada/dt dd class=companyIn The Game, Inc./dd dd class=divisionCustomer Service/dd dd class=street1135 West Beaver Creek Road Box #604/dd dd class=cityRichmond Hill/dd dd class=stateON/dd dd class=postalCodeL4B 1C0/dd /dl picky type=semantics I think that one would have to qualify as improper use of a dl. The method I use to decide on the appropriate use of dl is to say 'equals' in between the dt and each dd. Now let's apply that to your use: 'Canada equals In The Game, Inc' ...no it doesn't 'Canada equals Customer Service' ...no it doesn't 'Canada equals ON' ...ummm, the other way around, perhaps. and so on. /picky Andrew. --- http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] EDS embracing Web Standards
The css for both sites was done by AMS (on different dates) and the two companies are a little over 10 miles apart. Parker On 5/25/05, Andrew Krespanis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Either these guys did the design, or your old employers stole their 'standards' page directly from here: http://www.figdesign.com/site.html I love running corporate standards BS through Google -- then you can see where it really came from ;) Andrew. http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
