RE: [WSG] Standards Publication

2005-05-30 Thread Nick Cowie

Chris wrote:

  Has any knowledgeable soul read: Web Standards Design Guide
  (Internet Series)

No and I am not racing out to order it either.

I am slowly reading Kevin Ruse's previous book in that series - XML for Web 
Designers Using Macromedia Studio MX 2004 and while I learning a bit about XML 
(an area I completely lack knowledge), the HTML and CSS in that book makes me 
cringe. The HTML is basic and uses table for everything and the CSS is fairly 
primitive.  It was like the code I wrote four or more years ago.  Seeing that 
book was published in April 2004, I find it difficult to believe that Kevin 
Ruse has learnt enough in the year between books, to create a book on Web 
Standards that would interest me.


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[WSG] multi-lingual

2005-05-30 Thread john

Hello.

I have a question.  I've been doing a lot of multi-lingual sites lately, 
and I usually separate them into individual sites based on language, and 
indicate so properly in the code.


However, one of my clients wants two languages integrated into one site 
(basically two languages, one next to the other, but in different 
colors).  My question is, how do I code this so that it makes sense? 
For individual languages sites, I add:


lang=en xml:lang=en (changing the language, of course)

But if I'm putting two languages on one page, how is that done?  Can I use:

lang=en,pt xml:lang=en,pt (or something similar)?

Thanks, in advance, for your assistance.
--

~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Design
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter


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Re: [WSG] multi-lingual

2005-05-30 Thread Bert Doorn

G'day

However, one of my clients wants two languages integrated into one site 
(basically two languages, one next to the other, but in different 
colors).  My question is, how do I code this so that it makes sense? For 
individual languages sites, I add:


lang=en xml:lang=en (changing the language, of course)

But if I'm putting two languages on one page, how is that done?  Can I use:


If you mean putting them side by side in columns (e.g. floating 
divs), you could use the lang attribute on individual divs.


div lang=pt.../div
div lang=en.../div

Or to make it easier, set the html element to lang=en and put 
lang=pt only on the elements (divs or whatever you're using) 
with portuguese content.


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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Re: [WSG] style sheet set up - ADMIN

2005-05-30 Thread russ - maxdesign
ADMIN
Please remember a few basic guidelines:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm

- Trim replies where possible
- Code samples are fine, but not full pages of html or css code - much
better to link to these items

The last post was a prime candidate for trimming AND linking!
Russ

 
 /*STYLE RULES FOR HOME PAGE...*/
 html
 {height: 100%;
 margin-bottom: 1px;}

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Re: [WSG] multi-lingual

2005-05-30 Thread john
Ah, I see.  What about mixing languages in the KEYWORDS and DESCRIPTION? 
 Is that a problem?


~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Design
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter




on 5/30/2005 10:00 AM Bert Doorn said the following:

G'day

However, one of my clients wants two languages integrated into one site 
(basically two languages, one next to the other, but in different 
colors).  My question is, how do I code this so that it makes sense? For 
individual languages sites, I add:


lang=en xml:lang=en (changing the language, of course)

But if I'm putting two languages on one page, how is that done?  Can I use:


If you mean putting them side by side in columns (e.g. floating 
divs), you could use the lang attribute on individual divs.


div lang=pt.../div
div lang=en.../div

Or to make it easier, set the html element to lang=en and put 
lang=pt only on the elements (divs or whatever you're using) 
with portuguese content.


Regards

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[WSG] Signature markup

2005-05-30 Thread Tatham Oddie
Guys n' gals,

What would be the best way to mark-up something like:

All the best,
Tatham Oddie

They aren't really separate paragraphs so this is wrong:

pAll the best,/p
pTatham Oddie/p

This just looks hideous:

p
All the best,br /
Tatham Oddie
/p

This seems like misuse (but looks visually perfect with no extra CSS):

dl
dtAll the best,/dt
ddTatham Oddie/dd
/dl

Any ideas? opinions?



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie

Technical Director, Fuel Advance
www.fueladvance.com


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Re: [WSG] multi-lingual

2005-05-30 Thread Bert Doorn

john wrote:

Ah, I see.  What about mixing languages in the KEYWORDS and DESCRIPTION? 
 Is that a problem?


From http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-META :

-
META and search engines

A common use for META is to specify keywords that a search engine 
may use to improve the quality of search results. When several 
META elements provide language-dependent information about a 
document, search engines may filter on the lang attribute to 
display search results using the language preferences of the 
user. For example,


-- For speakers of US English --
META name=keywords lang=en-us
 content=vacation, Greece, sunshine
-- For speakers of British English --
META name=keywords lang=en
 content=holiday, Greece, sunshine
-- For speakers of French --
META name=keywords lang=fr
 content=vacances, Gregrave;ce, soleil
--


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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Re: [WSG] Signature markup

2005-05-30 Thread Joshua Street
On Mon, 2005-05-30 at 20:06 +1000, Tatham Oddie wrote:
 This just looks hideous:
 
   p
   All the best,br /
   Tatham Oddie
   /p

Really?  That's a shame, because I have a feeling that's correct.
They're not in separate paragraphs, but they are on separate lines, and
are therefore separated by a line break (yeah, I know, br / is
theoretically semantically null... shrug!)

Looks okay to me...

Kind Regards,
Joshua Street

base10solutions
Website:
http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
8572-6021
Mobile: 0425 808 469

Multimedia  Development  Agency



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Re: [WSG] multi-lingual

2005-05-30 Thread john
Oh, duh.  If all else fails, read the W3 specs.  If that doesn't work? 
Follow them.


Thanks again.

~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Design
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter




on 5/30/2005 11:08 AM Bert Doorn said the following:

john wrote:

Ah, I see.  What about mixing languages in the KEYWORDS and DESCRIPTION? 
 Is that a problem?


 From http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-META :

-
META and search engines

A common use for META is to specify keywords that a search engine 
may use to improve the quality of search results. When several 
META elements provide language-dependent information about a 
document, search engines may filter on the lang attribute to 
display search results using the language preferences of the 
user. For example,


-- For speakers of US English --
META name=keywords lang=en-us
  content=vacation, Greece, sunshine
-- For speakers of British English --
META name=keywords lang=en
  content=holiday, Greece, sunshine
-- For speakers of French --
META name=keywords lang=fr
  content=vacances, Gregrave;ce, soleil
--


Regards

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[WSG] Hardcore CSS problems - http://testdrive.whatcanido.com.au/

2005-05-30 Thread Tatham Oddie








Guys n gals,



I have a fairly hardcore CSS implementation in the
works and its almost there. However, Im having a few minor
bugs. Guess where? Did I hear you say IE6Win? *applause*



Basically:


 The cap on the bottom block
 is positioned incorrectly.
 Any text in the bottom block,
 or bottom right nav cant be selected  it seems there is
 something sitting on top of it.
 The logo top-left cant
 be clicked  it seems there is something sitting on top of it.
 The buttons top-right
 cant be clicked  it seems there is something sitting on top
 of them.




The URL is: http://testdrive.whatcanido.com.au/



The best rendering currently occurs in FF1.0.4.



Optimisation hasnt been started yet  so
dont complain too loudly about the load times. On that not however, if
anyone has some good ideas on how to cut some bloat out, please let me know.









Thanks,



Tatham Oddie



Technical Director, Fuel Advance

www.fueladvance.com










Re: [WSG] Signature markup

2005-05-30 Thread john
I'd have to agree.  It's not a list, and shouldn't be marked up as one. 
 It's a single paragraph with a line break.  Looks pretty 
straight-forward if you ask me.


~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Design
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter




on 5/30/2005 11:10 AM Joshua Street said the following:

On Mon, 2005-05-30 at 20:06 +1000, Tatham Oddie wrote:

This just looks hideous:

p
All the best,br /
Tatham Oddie
/p


Really?  That's a shame, because I have a feeling that's correct.
They're not in separate paragraphs, but they are on separate lines, and
are therefore separated by a line break (yeah, I know, br / is
theoretically semantically null... shrug!)

Looks okay to me...

Kind Regards,
Joshua Street

base10solutions
Website:
http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
8572-6021
Mobile: 0425 808 469

Multimedia  Development  Agency




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Re: [WSG] Signature markup

2005-05-30 Thread Joshua Street
The whole notion that it should be marked up as a list kind of reminds
me of this post...
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2005/03/31/too_far/index.php

I think we're all in danger of doing that!

Josh

On Mon, 2005-05-30 at 12:17 +0100, john wrote:
 I'd have to agree.  It's not a list, and shouldn't be marked up as one. 
   It's a single paragraph with a line break.  Looks pretty 
 straight-forward if you ask me.
 
 ~john
 _
 Dr. Zeus Web Design
 http://www.DrZeus.net
 content without clutter
 
 
 
 
 on 5/30/2005 11:10 AM Joshua Street said the following:
  On Mon, 2005-05-30 at 20:06 +1000, Tatham Oddie wrote:
  This just looks hideous:
  
 p
 All the best,br /
 Tatham Oddie
 /p
  
  Really?  That's a shame, because I have a feeling that's correct.
  They're not in separate paragraphs, but they are on separate lines, and
  are therefore separated by a line break (yeah, I know, br / is
  theoretically semantically null... shrug!)
  
  Looks okay to me...
  
  Kind Regards,
  Joshua Street
  
  base10solutions
  Website:
  http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
  Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
  8572-6021
  Mobile: 0425 808 469
  
  Multimedia  Development  Agency
  
  
  
  E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded
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  of this e-mail without the senders consent. If you have received this
  e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to the e-mail, and
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RE: [WSG] Signature markup

2005-05-30 Thread Tatham Oddie
Ok... Thanks for your help. I was just checking there wasn't some funky
über-geeky new way of doing it... If I'm smacking all my neighbours and
clients over the head about semantic mark-up I want to make sure I'm doing
it properly.



Thanks,


Tatham Oddie

Technical Director, Fuel Advance
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of john
Sent: Monday, 30 May 2005 9:18 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Signature markup

I'd have to agree.  It's not a list, and shouldn't be marked up as one. 
  It's a single paragraph with a line break.  Looks pretty 
straight-forward if you ask me.

~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Design
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter




on 5/30/2005 11:10 AM Joshua Street said the following:
 On Mon, 2005-05-30 at 20:06 +1000, Tatham Oddie wrote:
 This just looks hideous:
 
  p
  All the best,br /
  Tatham Oddie
  /p
 
 Really?  That's a shame, because I have a feeling that's correct.
 They're not in separate paragraphs, but they are on separate lines, and
 are therefore separated by a line break (yeah, I know, br / is
 theoretically semantically null... shrug!)
 
 Looks okay to me...
 
 Kind Regards,
 Joshua Street
 
 base10solutions
 Website:
 http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
 Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
 8572-6021
 Mobile: 0425 808 469
 
 Multimedia  Development  Agency
 
 
 
 E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded
 as confidential. Please do not distribute or publish any of the contents
 of this e-mail without the sender’s consent. If you have received this
 e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to the e-mail, and
 then delete the message without making copies or using it in any way.
 
 Although base10solutions takes precautions to ensure that e-mail sent
 from our accounts are free of viruses, we encourage recipients to
 undertake their own virus scan on each e-mail before opening, as
 base10solutions accepts no responsibility for loss or damage caused by
 the contents of this e-mail. 
 
 
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RE: [WSG] multi-lingual

2005-05-30 Thread Richard Ishida
Hello John,

See 
http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/language-decl/en/all.html#Slide006
0 and 
http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20040728.121358444

The lang and xml:lang attributes can and should only specify one language at
a time, as they indicate the language of the text you are currently dealing
with.  You can indicate that the document as a whole has two primary
languages using the HTTP header.  Meta elements may also serve the same
purpose, but it is not clear to what extent they are used by anyone.

Hope that helps,
RI



Richard Ishida
W3C

contact info:
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ 

W3C Internationalization:
http://www.w3.org/International/ 

Publication blog:
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
 
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of john
 Sent: 30 May 2005 09:11
 To: web standards list
 Subject: [WSG] multi-lingual
 
 Hello.
 
 I have a question.  I've been doing a lot of multi-lingual 
 sites lately, and I usually separate them into individual 
 sites based on language, and indicate so properly in the code.
 
 However, one of my clients wants two languages integrated 
 into one site (basically two languages, one next to the 
 other, but in different colors).  My question is, how do I 
 code this so that it makes sense? 
 For individual languages sites, I add:
 
 lang=en xml:lang=en (changing the language, of course)
 
 But if I'm putting two languages on one page, how is that 
 done?  Can I use:
 
 lang=en,pt xml:lang=en,pt (or something similar)?
 
 Thanks, in advance, for your assistance.
 -- 
 
 ~john
 _
 Dr. Zeus Web Design
 http://www.DrZeus.net
 content without clutter
 
 
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Re: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs

2005-05-30 Thread Rowan Lewis
What would be wrong with doing something like this?

h3Comment Title/h3
p
Posted by foobar on foobar
/p
div
p
Comment text
/p
/div

On 5/30/05, Andrew Krespanis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Heh, well if the blockquote approach is considered overkill, you'll
 choke on what I actually use for my comments...
 
 ol
   li
 dl
 dtAndrew said:/dt
 ddpThis is my comment. It is the definition of 'Andrew
 said' within this context./p/dd
 /dl
 dl class=date
 dtComment posted on:/dt
 dd9:15 am, 28th of May 2005/dd
 /dl
   /li
 /ol
 
 my 2c :)
 
 Andrew.
 
 http://leftjustified.net/
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-- 

Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf)
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RE: [WSG] style sheet set up

2005-05-30 Thread Richard Ishida
FWIW, my personal preference within a CSS file is to group all the
properties relating to a particular selector into a single declaration.
I've seen many people declare properties for, say, p in multiple locations.
That makes it difficult to get a complete picture of the styles applied for
p.

I also tend to group together all variants on p, eg. p#first, p.second, even
div#third p.  

hth,
RI



Richard Ishida
W3C

contact info:
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ 

W3C Internationalization:
http://www.w3.org/International/ 

Publication blog:
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
 
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Gilbert
 Sent: 28 May 2005 17:10
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] style sheet set up
 
 is there any standard way to set up the flow of a style 
 sheet? I usually try and use just one style sheet and start 
 with global elements such as body, p, table, li etc. followed 
 by elements as they flow on a page from header to footer. I 
 use one stylesheet even though with a large site, this can 
 become quite large. Looking for suggestions/thoughts on what 
 others do such as multiple stylesheets vs. one big one, 
 layout of styles, etc.
 
 thanks in advance,
 
 
 
 
 
 --
 ::Bruce::
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Re: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs

2005-05-30 Thread Ben Ward
 What would be wrong with doing something like this?
 
 h3Comment Title/h3
 p
 Posted by foobar on foobar
 /p
 div
 p
 Comment text
 /p
 /div

Nothing 'wrong', as such. The div surrounding the 'comment text'
paragraph is superfluous and could be dropped, but semantically it's
pretty sound.

The semantic question to ask there: is each individual comment really
a subsection of the page? (which a header signifies). The answer
could be yes or no there, I err on no but I see how people could
differ.
If you were to mark up three comments using your above example, you
have 3 different sub-sections in your page structure.

Ultimately, the reason for preferring a definition list is that the
spec says you can use it to structure a dialogue and since that's what
comments are, it does rather make sense.
Using a definition list describes everything you've achieved with p
and h3, but /also/ makes it very clear that the comments are a
related sequence. Arguably a dl also describes a much closer
relationship between the comment title (h3 -- dt) and the
information (date , author and comment text (all dd)), than a
heading and following paragraphs.

There's not much in it really, and there comes a point when choosing
one highly-optimised semantic structure over another highly-optimised
semantic structure shouldn't matter. Both are pretty good.

Ben
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Re: [WSG] Standards Publication

2005-05-30 Thread Chris Kennon

Hi,

Will pass on this one. Thanks.


C
On May 30, 2005, at 12:39 AM, Nick Cowie wrote:



Chris wrote:



 Has any knowledgeable soul read: Web Standards Design Guide
 (Internet Series)



No and I am not racing out to order it either.

I am slowly reading Kevin Ruse's previous book in that series - XML  
for Web Designers Using Macromedia Studio MX 2004 and while I  
learning a bit about XML (an area I completely lack knowledge), the  
HTML and CSS in that book makes me cringe. The HTML is basic and  
uses table for everything and the CSS is fairly primitive.  It was  
like the code I wrote four or more years ago.  Seeing that book was  
published in April 2004, I find it difficult to believe that Kevin  
Ruse has learnt enough in the year between books, to create a book  
on Web Standards that would interest me.



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Re: [WSG] Where to start?: Need to make a really junk code page to standards-compliant

2005-05-30 Thread Ingo Chao

Jack Saat schrieb:

I have a really Junk code page you can view on
http://www.extraheight.com/ and need to make this code
standards-compliant. But want keep the same layout minus of course the
clear view problems. There is so much junk in the code and I do not
know where to start. :(


From the scratch. If you need the same layout: Should 
standards-compliant read accessible?


- Note the order of the inserts at the image:
/horizontal/ black-blue-yellow-white
in comparison with the add-to-cart-table:
/vertical/ yellow-black-blue-white

- Note that the 0.5inch column shows in fact a 1.5inch blue insert and 
the 1.5 column shows a 0.5inch black insert.


- Note that the columns are blue-yellow/olive-orange and can wrongly 
match with the blue and yellow insert.


This can lead to misunderstanding and reclamations (who wants to be a 
giant-for-a-day with the wrong color and the wrong height in the 
shoes?). Swap the axis of this table, than sort the rows. And yes, it's 
tabular data.


OT:
- I would expect a photo from a nice, tall couple in the sunset and/or 
happy successful college boys and girls in a social situation or a funny 
photo from a NBA team and a small guy (you know what I mean) instead of 
repeating the same boring sports shoe photo at each page.

- The entire site mixes ExtraHeight and Extraheight in text and image.
- The English on this site should be better than mine.

Ingo
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Re: [WSG] Where to start?: Need to make a really junk code page to standards-compliant

2005-05-30 Thread Jan Brasna

Drop it all and start from scratch, the layout is quite simple.

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Re: [WSG] Hardcore CSS problems - http://testdrive.whatcanido.com.au/

2005-05-30 Thread Zulema

Tatham Oddie wrote:

I have a fairly hardcore CSS implementation in the works and its 
almost there. However, Im having a few minor bugs. Guess where? Did I 
hear you say IE6Win? *applause*

The URL is: http://testdrive.whatcanido.com.au/

Optimisation hasnt been started yet  so dont complain too loudly 
about the load times. On that not however, if anyone has some good 
ideas on how to cut some bloat out, please let me know.


Thanks,
Tatham Oddie


While using the Web Dev toolbar to view the CSS on the website, it 
/crashed/ both my Mozilla browser and my Firefox browser! Ouch!


You meant it when you said hardcore CSS implementaiton. ;-)

Just an FYI to others who might try the same.

Z u l e m a  O r t i z
w e b  d e s i g n e r
email : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
website : http://zoblue.com/
weblog : http://blog.zoblue.com/
browser : http://getfirefox.com/ 




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Re: [WSG] style sheet set up

2005-05-30 Thread SAUD _
SAUD _ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

what on earth 
I will fuck you 


soon 

I am sorry 
		Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site!

Re: [WSG] style sheet set up

2005-05-30 Thread Chris Kennon

Hi,

Pardon me if I'm missing the joke. But I get enough junk mail, so I  
can do without obscenities coming from sources I rely on as support  
for my livelihood.


Thank You


On May 30, 2005, at 2:41 PM, SAUD _ wrote:


SAUD _ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
what on earth

I will fuck you





soon



I am sorry


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Re: [WSG] style sheet set up - THREAD CLOSED

2005-05-30 Thread russ - maxdesign
ADMIN THREAD CLOSED

This list does not allow swearing - as clearly indicated in the guidelines.
The offender was unsubscribed and blocked.

Please do not reply to this or other obscene messages onlist.

If you have a problem with a post or a closed thread, please email
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - do not take out your anger or frustration on 1900 innocent
people.

Thanks
Russ

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Re: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs

2005-05-30 Thread Rick Faaberg
On 5/30/05 4:49 AM Rowan Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out:

 What would be wrong with doing something like this?
 
 h3Comment Title/h3
 p
 Posted by foobar on foobar
 /p
 div
 p
 Comment text
 /p
 /div

The only thing I can think of is: are you aware of the origin of fubar
(which is the correct spelling of foobar)?

It's totally weird how usage of fubar has been so distorted on the web.

Whatever.

Rick

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RE: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs

2005-05-30 Thread Christie Mason
That may be because most people don't know it's an acronym.  Foobar IS
F.U.B.A.R.

Christie Mason

-Original Message-
Rick Faaberg

The only thing I can think of is: are you aware of the origin of fubar
(which is the correct spelling of foobar)?

It's totally weird how usage of fubar has been so distorted on the web.

Whatever.

Rick

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Re: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs

2005-05-30 Thread Ben Bishop
The discussion of Definition lists for comments in blogs has been a
great so far.
Please don't stray off-topic.

Ben
WSG Core


 That may be because most people don't know it's an acronym.  Foobar IS
  The only thing I can think of is: are you aware of the origin of fubar
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Re: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs

2005-05-30 Thread Jan Brasna

Foobar IS F.U.B.A.R.


It isn't, it's only derived from it. See http://kb.iu.edu/data/aetq.html

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