Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Peter J. Farrell]

Christian Montoya wrote:

> It gets worse... W3C gave you a CSS ERROR, which means they checked
> your site just as you were editing, I'm sure... so the name is wrong,
> the listing is wrong, and now you are disqualified from the featured
> list. Hate it when that happens!

Just goes to show you that it's a good idea to have a
staging/development area before pushing any unvalidated or untested code
(such as ColdFusion, PHP or ASP.net, etc.) to a production server.

-- 
Peter J. Farrell :: Maestro Publishing
http://blog.maestropublishing.com

Rooibos Generator - New Version! - Version 2.1
Create boilerplate beans and transfer objects for ColdFusion!
http://rooibos.maestropublishing.com/

Member Team Mach-II - It's coming...

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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Stuart Sherwood]

You're doing well Andy. You made it onto Screenspire...
http://screenspire.com/go-image/www.clearleft.com/

Congrats!
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Christian Montoya]

It gets worse... W3C gave you a CSS ERROR, which means they checked
your site just as you were editing, I'm sure... so the name is wrong,
the listing is wrong, and now you are disqualified from the featured
list. Hate it when that happens!On 9/22/05, Stuart Sherwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Andy,You might want to edit your listing on W3C Sites. You have called yourself:   1. *Clearkleft Ltd * by Andy Budd  <
http://www.w3csites.com/profile.asp?u=clearleft>That has a certain ring to it though!  ;)Stuart**The discussion list for  
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Stuart Sherwood]

Hi Andy,
You might want to edit your listing on W3C Sites. You have called yourself:

  1. *Clearkleft Ltd * by Andy Budd
 

That has a certain ring to it though!  ;)

Stuart
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Re: [WSG] Show Hide by Class

[Alan Trick]

Yes, I've been doing that for some time and I really find it cleans up
my code, however you should note that class names are usually space
separated. At least in CSS the class "green tomatoes" will get the
styles of "green" and "tomatoes", so by making your javascript aware of
this you can hav multiple classes on you div's which makes life a bit
simpler.

I'm too lazy to use any of javascript's OOP so I just use:

function hasClass(node,className){
if(node.className){
classes=node.className.split(" ");
for(i=0;i Hi All. I hope someone can help me with my problem but it isn't exactly
> on topic so replies off list are encouraged.
> 
> The markup below is far from semantic but necessary for floating
> elements and alignment. It will come out of a publishing system and may
> repeat any number of times. For each category, the list of topics must
> be hidden until clicked.
> 
> 
>  
> 
>
>
> 
> 
>  
> 
>
>
> 
> 
>  
> 
>
>
> 
> 
> I have this code from the following thread:
> http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum91/1729.htm
> 
> 
> 
> But there are problems with above javascript that I don't understand
> 1. The loop counter, i, should be a local var (a little more efficient).
> 
> 2. Some versions of IE5 accept getElementsByTagName but return null when
> given the '*' argument. A quick check - and switch to the all collection
> if needed would make it disaster proof.
> 
> 
> Suggestions
> Is it possible to pick out all elements with class="activate" and then
> make the function apply to the instance of class="topiclist" that
> immediatly follows it?
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RE: [WSG] keyboard onclick activation on Mac

[Focas, Grant]

Thanks for the help,
My solution has been to change:
Print

to this:

HTML:
Print

JAVASCRIPT:
function handleEnter(ev) {
var ENTER_KEY=13;
var keyCode = ev.keyCode ? ev.keyCode : ev.which ? ev.which :
ev.charCode;
if (keyCode == ENTER_KEY) {
printPage();
return false;   
}
}

function printPage(){
window.print?window.print(): alert('Sorry, your browser does not
support this feature. Please choose print from the file menu.');
}

This now works in Mac IE5.0,5.1,5.2 but Safari 1.0.3 and Mac Netscape
7.2 still do not even allow keyboard tabbing.

Grant

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Webmaster
Sent: Thursday, 22 September 2005 9:49 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] keyboard onclick activation on Mac


Patrick H. Lauke quoth:

> Or, if you must, and your audience does include Mac users, write your
own
> little javascript filter function to ignore TAB before activating
whatever
> behaviour is in the onclick.

And indeed one for the Enter key.

I guess the point I was trying ot make is that these keys already had
specific amnd well understood functions well before the Internet
infected
the ether.

It shouldn't have been a leap of thought to reserve them for exclusive
functions. As you say, the W3C got it wrong. Nuff said.

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[WSG] abs pos in safari & backgrounds

[Kara O'Halloran - Eduka]

Re using ems in your layout elements too (below) - Oh you legend - I was
wondering why my layout spat it when I increased the font size!!

On another note - I have a positioning problem in safari.  I am using
absolute positioning and I have a style that swaps my background image
on rollover. In safari the backgrounds are WAY out of whack.

Is there an obvious reason for this? I know very little about safari. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Webmaster
Sent: Thursday, 22 September 2005 7:45 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

Janelle Clemens wrote:

> using em was way to inconsistent cross browser.

Janelle, another thing to consider when using ems and % for your
font-size is to also apply these units to your layout (header, columns
etc.). This way everything will flow just beautifully when resized.

You need to get your designer to think outside the box and not be so
precious. I've settled many an argument simply by throwing quotes from
the Web standards bible at people. At the end of the day, when it comes
to making a site accessible, they won't have a leg to stand on...
[cringe]

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RE: [WSG] Konqueror and Galeon issues

[Webmaster]

[edit edit] Doh!

[edit] I did, of course, mean "should I apply a .clearfix style to each
parent div and NOT the all-encompassing hack below. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Webmaster
Sent: Thursday, 22 September 2005 12:52 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Konqueror and Galeon issues

Hi all,

The fix provided the other day to clear floats and make disappearing content
re-appear worked well enough in most browsers.

However, having just performed a preview test at http://browsershots.org
(incidentally, this site deserves an award for its service to the web-dev
community), I'm horrified to discover that my third column is pulling back
into the centre in these two broswers.

The question is: should I care? Is this due to quirks in those browsers? All
others display just how I intended.

The screenshots can be viewed here:

http://browsershots.org/website/363651/

Do I simply need to apply my fix to ALL higher-level container divs?

/* Improved hack for Peekaboo bug which causes content from #middle
to disappear
if its height is less than that of #right. Include backjslash here
for IE5-Mac \*/ 
@media screen {
* html #middle { height: 0; }
}
/* end fix */

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RE: [WSG] keyboard onclick activation on Mac

[Webmaster]

 [edit] I did, of course, mean "should I apply a .clearfix style and NOT the
neat hack below.

-Original Message-

My concern is that the Enter key is also the default key to submit forms. An
onKeypress event could be trigger by most any other key, preferably the
spacebar. Although, as we know, this key also has the function of making
selections in radio groups and select boxes.

-Original Message-
From: Patrick H. Lauke

But Enter *is* the keyboard equivalent of the mouse click, so no you should
not filter it...or am I missing something here?

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[WSG] Konqueror and Galeon issues

[Webmaster]

Hi all,

The fix provided the other day to clear floats and make disappearing content
re-appear worked well enough in most browsers.

However, having just performed a preview test at http://browsershots.org
(incidentally, this site deserves an award for its service to the web-dev
community), I'm horrified to discover that my third column is pulling back
into the centre in these two broswers.

The question is: should I care? Is this due to quirks in those browsers? All
others display just how I intended.

The screenshots can be viewed here:

http://browsershots.org/website/363651/

Do I simply need to apply my fix to ALL higher-level container divs?

/* Improved hack for Peekaboo bug which causes content from #middle
to disappear
if its height is less than that of #right. Include backjslash here
for IE5-Mac \*/ 
@media screen {
* html #middle { height: 0; }
}
/* end fix */

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 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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RE: [WSG] keyboard onclick activation on Mac

[Webmaster]

 
My concern is that the Enter key is also the default key to submit forms. An
onKeypress event could be trigger by most any other key, preferably the
spacebar. Although, as we know, this key also has the function of making
selections in radio groups and select boxes.

-Original Message-
From: Patrick H. Lauke

But Enter *is* the keyboard equivalent of the mouse click, so no you should
not filter it...or am I missing something here?

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[WSG] IE6 not shrinking space at pure dom explorer list trouble

[Isabel Santos]

(similar message sent to css discuss list)
Hi all,
 
I'm afraid I've not been able to grab time to read most my lists messages during the lasts months, nor to answer any, pardon me please, but I'm getting kind of desperate on this new challenge, so I'm turning on to you :):

 
I'm designing a site for a graphic company, still in the process of showing up the possibilities to the client, still testing just in IE6 pc, latest Opera and latest Firefox and getting already frustrated for not being able to tame IE.

 
The sites test pages is at:
http://unbound.no.sapo.pt/decoder/ (background displaying fine)
http://unbound.no.sapo.pt/decoder/galeria/portfolio.htm (troubled page)
http://unbound.no.sapo.pt/decoder/lib/default.css (basic css)
http://unbound.no.sapo.pt/decoder/lib/standardbrowsers.css (site wide css)
http://unbound.no.sapo.pt/decoder/lib/especifica1.css (pure dom's list and gallery's css)

http://unbound.no.sapo.pt/decoder/lib/pde.js (pure dom explorers script)

 
The simpler pages are displaying fairly ok, but at the page 
http://unbound.no.sapo.pt/decoder/galeria/portfolio.htm I decided to use an unordered using the "pure dom explorer" from Christian Heilmann presented at http://www.onlinetools.org/tools/puredom/
, a script I find truely elegant, and a thumbnail gallery following the example of Stu Nicholls in http://www.webreference.com/programming/css_gallery/index.html
, and things are getting realy messy.
 
I was able to avoid the absolutly positioned list from jumping over the tree pure dom list using a content stretching div bitween them, witch meens if the script isn't loaded, the list comes all the way down before the thumbnail gallery without destroying the structure for the "Gello Layout" (built uppon the Mike Purvis's genius idea described at 
http://positioniseverything.net/articles/jello-expo.html witch calls for a relatively positioned wrapper div).
 
But although for latest Opera and Firefox things get preety well presented, IE seams not to regain the space it saves when the list is shrinked uppon the script loading, so it leaves a continuos space correspondent to the lenght it would ocupye if the list was all opened, and messing up that spaces backgrounds. 

 
I might consider a different design, with a diferent kind of list, eventually one using "hover"s but right now I really intend to solve this issue.
 
Since I cannot defined a maximum height for the list or any of its wrappers in IE, I presume it is not possible to use css to fix the list after the script is applied. (is this true?) I thought of the Peter-Paul Koch's structure used in the "Three column stretching" article at 
http://www.quirksmode.org/ but it seams to undergo the same difficulty with IE: it stretches, but it doesn't shrinks.
Maybe I could make the script calculate the needed height and pull things up after the doms nodes generation, say like reloading the page without reloading the script or something? (is this remotly possible? I'm still assuming simples styles application wont work.)

IE loads other structures using similar principles quite well; for instance, http://www.alistapart.com/d/eatcake/final.html (let them eat the cake's article) also uses 
style.display:none and style.display:block based functions uppon scripts loading, altought at div structures, and I see no extra spaces stretching heights. What am I missing? Does this has anything to do with using a ul?

And finally, is there a valid reason for this not to be working, because of some stupid mistake, or because it is simply incompatible with IE6 pc, period?
 
Ansiously looking forward for clues,
thank you very mutch for your time,
 
Isabel Santos

Re: [WSG] keyboard onclick activation on Mac

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Webmaster wrote:


Or, if you must, and your audience does include Mac users, write your own
little javascript filter function to ignore TAB before activating whatever
behaviour is in the onclick.



And indeed one for the Enter key.


But Enter *is* the keyboard equivalent of the mouse click, so no you 
should not filter it...or am I missing something here?


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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Re: [WSG] displaying 3.1 3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Webmaster wrote:

Be nice. It's a common enough solution.


Sure...just worth pointing out that if you do use it, you either need to 
stick with HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0 Transitional, or claim strict 
validation and knowingly have invalid markup in your page.


MS don't get absolutely everything wrong, you know. :P 


They should really quote their attributes though ;)

--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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RE: [WSG] displaying 3.1 3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3

[Webmaster]

Be nice. It's a common enough solution.

MS don't get absolutely everything wrong, you know. :P 

-Original Message-
From: Patrick H. Lauke

MsoNormal? Somebody's been exporting from Word, eh? ;)

Webmaster wrote:
> The far simpler way would be simpy to use:
>  
> 
>  Text
>  Text
>  Text
> 



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RE: [WSG] keyboard onclick activation on Mac

[Webmaster]

Patrick H. Lauke quoth:

> Or, if you must, and your audience does include Mac users, write your own
> little javascript filter function to ignore TAB before activating whatever
> behaviour is in the onclick.

And indeed one for the Enter key.

I guess the point I was trying ot make is that these keys already had
specific amnd well understood functions well before the Internet infected
the ether.

It shouldn't have been a leap of thought to reserve them for exclusive
functions. As you say, the W3C got it wrong. Nuff said.

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RE: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

[Webmaster]

Janelle Clemens wrote:

> using em was way to inconsistent cross browser.

Janelle, another thing to consider when using ems and % for your font-size
is to also apply these units to your layout (header, columns etc.). This way
everything will flow just beautifully when resized.

You need to get your designer to think outside the box and not be so
precious. I've settled many an argument simply by throwing quotes from the
Web standards bible at people. At the end of the day, when it comes to
making a site accessible, they won't have a leg to stand on... [cringe]

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Re: [WSG] displaying 3.1 3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Webmaster wrote:

The far simpler way would be simpy to use:
 


 Text
 Text
 Text



MsoNormal? Somebody's been exporting from Word, eh? ;)

Yes, that's the simplest way...shame though that this does not validate 
against XHTML 1.0 strict or higher, as start and type have been dropped.


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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RE: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

[Webmaster]

Another cool tool, which is free, is Screen Ruler.

http://www.spadixbd.com/freetools/jruler.htm

It's only limitation IMO is that is can only measure in pixels, inches,
picas and centimeters.

The developer is the type of guy that would happily add other units however.
Especially for the sake of accessibility.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Paul Bennett
Sent: Thursday, 22 September 2005 8:07 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

1. personally that font size is already borderline readable (and I have good
vision) any smaller than 9px (some would say 10px) is getting into the
squinty-eyes arena.
2. According to my screen callipers, the font size the designer wants is
7px. There's a reason it looks too small at this size - because it is. Your
designer might have to just be happy with 9px IMHO.

Paul


Need to measure things onscreen (to appease designers, for example) then
check out this 'Screen Callipers' utility:

http://www.iconico.com/caliper/index.aspx

(I'm not afflated, just a happy user)

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Re: [WSG] keyboard onclick activation on Mac

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Webmaster wrote:


You would have thought someone would either exclude the TAB key from
keypress events


Well, to play devil's advocate: TAB *is* a key, so why shouldn't it 
trigger an onkeypress?



(and other keys like Enter, Alt, arrows etc)


I don't think you want to exclude ENTER, as otherwise you can't activate 
the onkeypress via the keyboard in the same way as onclick at all.



This is one aspect of meeting accessibility requirements that I find quite
painful.


The main problem is that, in this instance, the W3C have got it wrong. 
They did not specify a device independent equivalent. onmouseover has 
onfocus, onmouseout has onblur, onclick has...nothing in the HTML spec. 
The device independent equivalent would be onactivate, which is actually 
a DOM event (but the onactivate attribute is invalid, and only supported 
- in a weird proprietary twist - in IE).


It has been common practice for browsers to treat onclick as if it were 
device independent, and fire the event even when a link (and some other 
elements that can take focus) is activated. Unfortunately, Mac browsers 
haven't followed this practice, taking the interpretation of onclick 
literally.



The easy answer, of course, is to avoid Javascript events altogether.


Or, if you must, and your audience does include Mac users, write your 
own little javascript filter function to ignore TAB before activating 
whatever behaviour is in the onclick.


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
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RE: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

[Webmaster]

Janelle, I'm gonna take a stab in the dark and assume that 
the difficulty you've been having is a result of the much-discussed and lightly 
documented IE font-size bug.
 
As stated in previous posts, simply give your html or 
body tag a font-size of 100.01% and then use ems (preferably) for any further 
definitions.
 
I usually follow with a few basics 
like:
 
p, li, input { font-size: 80% }
 
Tabel cells sometimes inherit depending on how the rest of 
your stylesheet is set up.
 
Give it a go. You'll see it works and that it's muc easier 
to keep site-wide control.
 
The other option of fixing a 9pt font is simply a big fat 
no-no. :)


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janelle 
ClemensSent: Thursday, 22 September 2005 7:42 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] controlling font size in form 
text box

My designer is on me 
to reduce the size of the font in the search box on the templates for our 
redesign.   But I can not get it to budge without getting too 
small.    Does anyone know of a trick for this.   We 
have decided to use a fixed font (px or pt) for the search box text.   
Two reasons:   1. to keep it constant when a viewer increases 
their browser font, and 2. using em was way to inconsistent cross 
browser.    The text under the search box is the size my designer 
wants it to be.
 
http://www.sgi.com/tempie/search_font.html
 
.box {font-size: 
9px;}
 
Thank 
you,
Janelle
 

RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Webmaster]

>> If it was spinning, the name "clear:left" would have to change to 
>> "clear:right" at every 180 degrees.

> or clear:both :o)

You guys are just s 80s. ;)


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RE: [WSG] displaying 3.1 3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3

[Webmaster]

The far simpler way would be simpy to 
use:
 
 Text Text Text
 
Works in IE and Firefox. Probably all the others 
too.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James 
EllisSent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 10:24 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG]  displaying 3.1 
3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3
HiYes there is, using "counter". Only works in Opera and 
KHTML browser (Konquerer, possibly Safari), though.http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/tests/css2/sec12-05a.htmCheersJames
On 9/21/05, Taco Fleur - 
Pacific Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

  Is there any way to make list look 
  like
   
  3.1 text 
  text
  3.2 
  text text
  3.3 text text
  3.4 text text
   
  Instead 
  of
   
  
  1 text 
  text
  2 text 
  text
  3 
  text text
  4 text text
   
  I am thinking NOT 
  with plain markup, but I could be wrong (just 
  checking).
   
  And how would 
  someone else do this? Just use  and put the numbering within the 
  list item as 
  text?
   
  Taco Fleur 
  - Pacific Foxan industry leader 
  with commercial IT experience since 1994 …http://www.pacificfox.com
   

RE: [WSG] displaying 3.1 3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3

[Webmaster]

The far simpler way would be simpy to 
use:
 
 Text Text Text
 
Works in IE and Firefox. Probably all the others 
too.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James 
EllisSent: Wednesday, 21 September 2005 10:24 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG]  displaying 3.1 
3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3
HiYes there is, using "counter". Only works in Opera and 
KHTML browser (Konquerer, possibly Safari), though.http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/tests/css2/sec12-05a.htmCheersJames
On 9/21/05, Taco Fleur - 
Pacific Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

  Is there any way to make list look 
  like
   
  3.1 text 
  text
  3.2 
  text text
  3.3 text text
  3.4 text text
   
  Instead 
  of
   
  
  1 text 
  text
  2 text 
  text
  3 
  text text
  4 text text
   
  I am thinking NOT 
  with plain markup, but I could be wrong (just 
  checking).
   
  And how would 
  someone else do this? Just use  and put the numbering within the 
  list item as 
  text?
   
  Taco Fleur 
  - Pacific Foxan industry leader 
  with commercial IT experience since 1994 …http://www.pacificfox.com
   

RE: [WSG] keyboard onclick activation on Mac

[Webmaster]

This is true and it's so goddamn annoying.

You would have thought someone would either exclude the TAB key from
keypress events (and other keys like Enter, Alt, arrows etc) which are
generally reserved for other functions.

This is one aspect of meeting accessibility requirements that I find quite
painful.

The easy answer, of course, is to avoid Javascript events altogether.

-Original Message-
From: Patrick Lauke

However, in Firefox - and, if I recall correctly, Mozilla (Seamonkey) as
well - a tab also counts as a keypress. Therefore, simply tabbing to the
link and attempting to tab to the next one will trigger the onkeypress
event. In this case, the user starts tabbing, and all of a sudden the print
dialog comes up...

Patrick


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RE: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

[Janelle Clemens]

Ack!   I knew the font size was going to bring comments.   Personally I
think the font on the whole site is too small but that is not my
decision to make, and believe me I have raised my concerns about it
plenty.  Thanks to Peter I was able to fix the problem so I can move on
to the next issue.

:-)
Janelle
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Felix Miata
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 3:10 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

Janelle Clemens wrote:
 
> My designer is on me to reduce the size of the font in the search box 
> on the templates for our redesign. But I can not get it to budge 
> without getting too small. Does anyone know of a trick for this. We 
> have decided to use a fixed font (px or pt) for the search box text.
> Two reasons: 1. to keep it constant when a viewer increases their

Viewers zoom their fonts so that they can see things that designers make
too small.

> browser font, and 2. using em was way to inconsistent cross browser.

As indeed it should be. Ems are designed to accomodate users' needs, and
so will vary in ultimate size depending on user settings. When you
design to take this into account, everybody wins.

> The text under the search box is the size my designer wants it to be.
> http://www.sgi.com/tempie/search_font.html
> .box {font-size: 9px;}

Both are already much much much too small for me to tell any difference
between them. The latter @ 10px is 1/4 the size of my default, totally
useless if I'm stuck using IE. You should set up a system for high
resolution and show "my designer" what 10px can mean to accessibility.
--
"Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you."
Psalm 55:22 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

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RE: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

[Janelle Clemens]

Thank you Peter.   You are right.   It is exactly the same as the text
below.

:-)
Janelle
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Asquith
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 3:09 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

Hi Janelle

If you set the font-family on the .box to verdana it then renders the
same as your example below. Looks like the text input field is picking
up the default sans-serif(?)

Cheers
Peter

Janelle Clemens wrote:
> My designer is on me to reduce the size of the font in the search box
on 
> the templates for our redesign.   But I can not get it to budge
without 
> getting too small.Does anyone know of a trick for this.   We have 
> decided to use a fixed font (px or pt) for the search box text.   Two 
> reasons:   1. to keep it constant when a viewer increases their
browser 
> font, and 2. using em was way to inconsistent cross browser.The
text 
> under the search box is the size my designer wants it to be.
>  
> http://www.sgi.com/tempie/search_font.html
>  
> .box {font-size: 9px;}
>  
> Thank you,
> Janelle
>  

--
Peter Asquith
http://www.wasabicube.com
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Re: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

[Felix Miata]

Janelle Clemens wrote:
 
> My designer is on me to reduce the size of the font in the search box
> on the templates for our redesign. But I can not get it to budge
> without getting too small. Does anyone know of a trick for this. We
> have decided to use a fixed font (px or pt) for the search box text.
> Two reasons: 1. to keep it constant when a viewer increases their

Viewers zoom their fonts so that they can see things that designers make
too small.

> browser font, and 2. using em was way to inconsistent cross browser.

As indeed it should be. Ems are designed to accomodate users' needs, and
so will vary in ultimate size depending on user settings. When you
design to take this into account, everybody wins.

> The text under the search box is the size my designer wants it to be.
> http://www.sgi.com/tempie/search_font.html
> .box {font-size: 9px;}

Both are already much much much too small for me to tell any difference
between them. The latter @ 10px is 1/4 the size of my default, totally
useless if I'm stuck using IE. You should set up a system for high
resolution and show "my designer" what 10px can mean to accessibility.
-- 
"Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you."
Psalm 55:22 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

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Re: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

[Peter Asquith]

Hi Janelle

If you set the font-family on the .box to verdana it then renders the 
same as your example below. Looks like the text input field is picking 
up the default sans-serif(?)


Cheers
Peter

Janelle Clemens wrote:
My designer is on me to reduce the size of the font in the search box on 
the templates for our redesign.   But I can not get it to budge without 
getting too small.Does anyone know of a trick for this.   We have 
decided to use a fixed font (px or pt) for the search box text.   Two 
reasons:   1. to keep it constant when a viewer increases their browser 
font, and 2. using em was way to inconsistent cross browser.The text 
under the search box is the size my designer wants it to be.
 
http://www.sgi.com/tempie/search_font.html
 
.box {font-size: 9px;}
 
Thank you,

Janelle
 


--
Peter Asquith
http://www.wasabicube.com


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

RE: [WSG] controlling font size in form text box

[Paul Bennett]

1. personally that font size is already borderline readable (and I have good 
vision) any smaller than 9px (some would say 10px) is getting into the 
squinty-eyes arena.
2. According to my screen callipers, the font size the designer wants is 7px. 
There's a reason it looks too small at this size - because it is. Your designer 
might have to just be happy with 9px IMHO.

Paul


Need to measure things onscreen (to appease designers, for example) then check 
out this 'Screen Callipers' utility:

http://www.iconico.com/caliper/index.aspx

(I'm not afflated, just a happy user)

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[WSG] controlling font size in form text box

[Janelle Clemens]

My designer is on me 
to reduce the size of the font in the search box on the templates for our 
redesign.   But I can not get it to budge without getting too 
small.    Does anyone know of a trick for this.   We 
have decided to use a fixed font (px or pt) for the search box text.   
Two reasons:   1. to keep it constant when a viewer increases 
their browser font, and 2. using em was way to inconsistent cross 
browser.    The text under the search box is the size my designer 
wants it to be.
 
http://www.sgi.com/tempie/search_font.html
 
.box {font-size: 
9px;}
 
Thank 
you,
Janelle
 

Re: [WSG] Getting online in Madrid

[Lea de Groot]

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:30:39 +0200, Erwin Heiser wrote:
> I¹ll apologise in advance if this is OT but since the group has several
> members in Madrid...

It is off-topic, so could people please reply to the OP directly?
Have fun in Madrid, Erwin. That sounds cool! :)

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
WSG Core Member
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Re: [WSG] Click here--reference

[Laura Carlson]

Does anyone know a rule I can point to (and send my client to read) re 
accessibility and "click here"?


Some References:
http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/navigation#clickhere

Laura
___
Laura L. Carlson
Information Technology Systems and Services
University of Minnesota Duluth
Duluth, MN  55812-3009
http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/
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RE: [WSG] displaying 3.1 3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3

[Gene Falck]

Hi Patrick,

You wrote:


... still is
"Until either CSS2 is widely supported or user agents
allow users to control rendering of lists through other
means, authors should consider providing contextual
clues in unnumbered nested lists."


Especially since the information in the compound
numbering could be looked upon as content anyhow.


Another consideration is also that this seems to me,
in this particular case, to contradict

"6.1 Organize documents so they may be read without style
sheets. For example, when an HTML document is rendered
without associated style sheets, it must still be possible
to read the document."

If the numbering is set via CSS2, then without an associated
style sheet the numbering won't match (if, for instance, you're
doing a table of contents with the numbering reflecting the
number given to sections/headings).


Excellent point and a very appropriate concern
if you are thinking of the visitor's need to be
able to follow the organization of the document.

Regards,

Gene Falck
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Tom Livingston]

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:29:54 -0400, Titanilla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

If it was spinning, the name "clear:left" would have to change to  
"clear:right" at every 180 degrees.


or clear:both :o)

--
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
www.mlinc.com

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Titanilla]

Andy Budd wrote:



Well I wanted to make the logo spin, but the others thought it was a  
bad idea ;-)




If it was spinning, the name "clear:left" would have to change to 
"clear:right" at every 180 degrees. :)


(Very nice site, although the orange text box could be 'misaligned' a 
bit more on the left, stretching it further out which would give it more 
contrast IMO.)


Titanilla






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Re: [WSG] Jello flexible layout

[Jan Brasna]

Someone mentioned the Jello layout style during the clearleft thread  
(thank you who ever you are -- very cool!) 


You're more than welcome :)


I was wondering if anyone  has used this and if they ran into any problems


Since it is pretty easy to inject to a failsafe layout, it won't (most 
likely) mess the layout. Just go ahead and try :) I've been playing with 
it recently and I've came across no problems at all.


--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Jan Brasna]

Maybe just throw 
the info and leave

all the rest for the users to control? Paint it yourself style of web.

Oh, and incidentally, that seems to be what some people on the WWW Style
list (Orion being the loudest proponent) would like to see in the future


Uhh, Patrick - it might be nice, but Orion Adrian's visions are based 
mostly on academic thouhgts, ideal world and sci-fi future... ;)


--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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[WSG] Getting online in Madrid

[Erwin Heiser]

Ola a todos /Hi all,

I¹ll apologise in advance if this is OT but since the group has several
members in Madrid...

I¹ll be working in Madrid for the next 5 months (moving there from Antwerp,
Belgium) and I¹d like to know:
* where to find a (preferably cheap) spot (hotspot, cybercafé, library
whatever...) to get online with my Mac laptop.
* Ideally this place should have a PC as well so I can do some cross-browser
testing as well.
Please contact me off-list with any suggestions...

A los miembros del grupo de Madrid:
Tengo la oportunidad de trabajar en Madrid para cinco meses y querría saber
donde hay un sitio (hotspot, cibercafe, biblioteca, lo que sea...barato si
es posible) ) en lo que puedo conectar con el internet con mi ordenador
Macintosh portable.
Si en este lugar haya ordinadores PC/Windows para comprobar mis CSS-diseños
en IE5-6 sería aún mejor.
Por favor, contáctame fuera de la lista con su sugerencia...
Muchas gracias, many thanks,

Erwin Heiser


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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Andy Budd]

Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

BTW: can I keep/use those screenshots in case I want to write  
something

about that old bug on my own site? They sure got the point through!


As long as you mention that we fixed the problem and provide a link  
to the site, I don't see any problem with it.


Yours

Andy Budd

http://www.andybudd.com/
01273 241355
07880 636677

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[WSG] Jello flexible layout

[Tom Livingston]

Hello list,

Someone mentioned the Jello layout style during the clearleft thread  
(thank you who ever you are -- very cool!) but I was wondering if anyone  
has used this and if they ran into any problems with it. It seems to fit a  
need I have on an upcoming project and I wanna know now if I'm gonna wish  
I didn't go down the jello-lined path beforehand.


TIA

--
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
www.mlinc.com

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Andy Budd wrote:

Screenshots of original page on IE6/win2K-pro, window w:700/h:860:


...


That does suck. Bloody IE!


Oh, it's such a nice little bugger :-)


I changed the font size on the body from ems to % early this morning,
 so would you mind letting me know if those screenshots were prior to
 the change, or if the problem is still there?


Screenshots were from the 'original' with ems.
I've checked the page with %, and it is just fine.


Sorry to be a pain


No pain, just pure fun.

BTW: can I keep/use those screenshots in case I want to write something
about that old bug on my own site? They sure got the point through!

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Rimantas Liubertas wrote:

<...>

Part of the point of web standards in general is that the user and 
user agent have final control of the layout, not the designer. So

if the page is too wide on a 21 inch monitor, why not reduce the
window size?


<...>

Two questions - then what are designers for? Maybe just throw the
info and leave all the rest for the users to control? Paint it
yourself style of web.


You've got that one partially backwards.
- Users should have access to the info -- regardless of the design.
- A good designer makes the most out of the design, while making sure
the design don't get in the way of the content *if* the user wants control.

And the second one: why do you assume users WANT control? I want to 
get info, not to fiddle with my browser's window size.


Most don't want control of anything--anywhere, and very few know that
they can take control--anywhere. Some users want *some* control, so why
not let them have it? The web is well suited for user-control, unless
designers make it impossible. Sites that can't take *some* user-control
without breaking, are not well designed.

Why fiddle when you can define your basic control once, and make it
apply to nearly all sites? If designers care to test, and take into
account, at least the most basic options in the most used browsers, then
there shouldn't be any real problems.


Sure, web is not print, but our eyes are still the same, and the same
 rules apply (at least regarding line length).


Our eyes are the same, but comfortable reading from screens is usually
not the same as comfortable reading from paper. Distances are often
different, and printing on reflective media have been developed to suit
our needs (our eyes) over hundreds of years, while web design still has
a long way to go.


So if fixed width is absolute no-no, then there is a good compromise
- elastic layout.


Don't think there are any 'no-no' regarding fixed width (as long as it
works), but defining 'min/max width' on a fluid layout will do in most
cases.

Elastic layouts do have the disadvantage of 'going off screen' in some
(badly designed) cases, which to me mean I'll have to apply the 'fit to
window' option (in Opera) to make them readable. Well, I, as a user, am
back in control then.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Andy Budd]

Screenshots of original page on IE6/win2K-pro, window w:700/h:860:
-2: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_smallest.png
-1: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_smaller.png
 0: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/normal.png
+1: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_larger.png
+2: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_largest.png

Apart from being able to accommodate any an all wishes for 'really  
large'

or 'really small' text :-) this bug is one we better not trigger.


That does suck. Bloody IE!

I changed the font size on the body from ems to % early this morning,  
so would you mind letting me know if those screenshots were prior to  
the change, or if the problem is still there?


Sorry to be a pain

Yours

Andy Budd

http://www.andybudd.com/
01273 241355
07880 636677

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RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Patrick Lauke]

> Rimantas Liubertas

> Maybe just throw 
> the info and leave
> all the rest for the users to control? Paint it yourself style of web.

Oh, and incidentally, that seems to be what some people on the WWW Style
list (Orion being the loudest proponent) would like to see in the future
*shudder*

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005Sep/0105.html

Patrick
__
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
__
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http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] displaying 3.1 3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3

[James Ellis]

Hi

Yes there is, using "counter". Only works in Opera and KHTML browser (Konquerer, possibly Safari), though.

http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/tests/css2/sec12-05a.htm

Cheers
JamesOn 9/21/05, Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:







Is there any way to 
make list look like
 
3.1 text 
text
3.2 text text
3.3 text 
text
3.4 text text
 
Instead 
of
 

1 text 
text
2 text text
3 text 
text
4 text text
 
I am thinking NOT with 
plain markup, but I could be wrong (just 
checking).
 
And how would someone 
else do this? Just use  and put the numbering within the list item as 
text?
 
Taco Fleur 
- Pacific Foxan industry leader with 
commercial IT experience since 1994 …http://www.pacificfox.com
 

RE: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Patrick Lauke]

> Rimantas Liubertas

> Maybe just throw 
> the info and leave
> all the rest for the users to control? Paint it yourself style of web.

Bit tongue in cheek, but: isn't that Web 2.0?

> And the second one: why do you assume users WANT control? 

It's about finding the compromise: some users want control, some don't.
Some want control but don't know how they can exert that control (e.g.
setting their default text sizes, colours, even up to user styles).
It's a balancing act, as the requirements to please ALL users are
contradictory...damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Patrick
__
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__ 
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RE: [WSG] displaying 3.1 3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3

[Patrick Lauke]

> Daniel Nitsche

> There is something on this very topic in the WCAG:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#lists

And the clincher on that still is
"Until either CSS2 is widely supported or user agents
allow users to control rendering of lists through other means,
authors should consider providing contextual clues in
unnumbered nested lists."

Another consideration is also that this seems to me, in this
particular case, to contradict

"6.1 Organize documents so they may be read without style
sheets. For example, when an HTML document is rendered
without associated style sheets, it must still be possible
to read the document."

If the numbering is set via CSS2, then without an associated
style sheet the numbering won't match (if, for instance, you're
doing a table of contents with the numbering reflecting the
number given to sections/headings).

Patrick
__
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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Re: [WSG] Opera 8.5 released, now no registration fee ad-free permanently

[Ben Ward]

I have generally tested in Opera 7+, but I do find that although its
standards support is generally outstanding, it pulls off some
genuinely odd quirks that can really mess you about.

One of the problems with targetting it came from the 'but people might
not pay to upgrade to version 7/8' dilemma, thus you maybe ended up
supporting more older versions than you might do for, say, Firefox.
I'm glad that is no-longer part of the browser-support equation.

Ben
http://ben-ward.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Andy Budd wrote:


As I said I've not experienced this before, so I'm kind of intrigued.
 Out of interest, how does the bug manifest its self on our site?


Screenshots of original page on IE6/win2K-pro, window w:700/h:860:
-2: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_smallest.png
-1: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_smaller.png
 0: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/normal.png
+1: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_larger.png
+2: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_largest.png

Apart from being able to accommodate any an all wishes for 'really large'
or 'really small' text :-) this bug is one we better not trigger.

It seems that a lot of people know about it and know the "fix". 
However there doesn't really seem to be much in the way of 
documentation. If anybody can find some URL's, I'd appreciate it.


It is mentioned everywhere, but in few details because there isn't much
to write about that bug.
Googling for "THE PROBLEM WITH EMS" will give you a lot of hits.
One here:

...one should think those who re-designed ALA could find it ;-)

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Rimantas Liubertas]

<...>
> Part of the point of web standards in general is that the user and
> user agent have final control of the layout, not the designer. So if
> the page is too wide on a 21 inch monitor, why not reduce the window
> size?
<...>

Two questions - then what are designers for? Maybe just throw the info and leave
all the rest for the users to control? Paint it yourself style of web.

And the second one: why do you assume users WANT control? I want to
get info, not to fiddle with my browser's window size. To quotes Steve
Krug (or his wife): "If something is hard to use I just don't use it
as much".

Sure, web is not print, but our eyes are still the same, and the same
rules apply (at least regarding line length).

So if fixed width is absolute no-no, then there is a good compromise -
elastic layout.

Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/
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Re: [WSG] displaying 3.1 3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3

[Daniel Nitsche]

There is something on this very topic in the WCAG:
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#lists

Cheers,

Daniel NitscheOn 9/21/05, Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:







Is there any way to 
make list look like
 
3.1 text 
text
3.2 text text
3.3 text 
text
3.4 text text
 
Instead 
of
 

1 text 
text
2 text text
3 text 
text
4 text text
 
I am thinking NOT with 
plain markup, but I could be wrong (just 
checking).
 
And how would someone 
else do this? Just use  and put the numbering within the list item as 
text?
 
Taco Fleur 
- Pacific Foxan industry leader with 
commercial IT experience since 1994 …http://www.pacificfox.com
 

[WSG] displaying 3.1 3.2 etc. instead of 1 2 3

[Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox]

Title: Message



Is there any way to 
make list look like
 
3.1 text 
text
3.2 text text
3.3 text 
text
3.4 text text
 
Instead 
of
 

1 text 
text
2 text text
3 text 
text
4 text text
 
I am thinking NOT with 
plain markup, but I could be wrong (just 
checking).
 
And how would someone 
else do this? Just use  and put the numbering within the list item as 
text?
 
Taco Fleur 
- Pacific Foxan industry leader with 
commercial IT experience since 1994 …http://www.pacificfox.com
 

Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Hmmm...sent a reply to this thread early this morning, but it seems to have
gotten lost in the ether somewhere...(unless I made the mistake of just
sending
it to Andy direct)

On the issue of the "extreme font-resizing bug", I just pointed Andy to Mr
Rutter's very own blog entry ages ago, with a comment from me.
http://www.clagnut.com/blog/348/#c790

Worth noting: the percent value for font size doesn't necessarily have
to go on
the body. I usually stick it on the html element, but in general it needs to
basically be the topmost element where you define a font size.

--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Andy Budd]

Webmaster wrote:

Oh, one small encoding issue (?) which came up as well. For some  
reason I'm

getting the HTML entity and not the " in the text below.

"Download and complete our client worksheet, and we'll send you a
proposal within a week."


IE and its crappy support for named entities. I dunno!

Have changed them to numbered entities instead.

Yours

Andy Budd

http://www.andybudd.com/
01273 241355
07880 636677

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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Andy Budd]

Chris Blown wrote:

Fluid, simple, clean, valid, green yet warm, big fonts ( like big  
hair )


Nice work Andy. I like it.



Thanks Guys,

I probably should point out that I was only responsible for the  
design. Jeremy Keith did the CSS in all its fluid glory.



Yours

Andy Budd

http://www.andybudd.com/
01273 241355
07880 636677

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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Andy Budd]

No surprise that you didn't find it. The bug is mentioned here and
there, but not in great details, AFAIK. Even ALA has triggered that  
bug

with their last re-design, so it is easy to get it wrong.

As others have mentioned already: it's the 'em' on body that triggers
that IE bug. More exactly, em-values less than 1.01 em is the usual
trigger, while larger em-values on body may work just fine.

A percentage-value on body is safe, regardless of value. 100.01% is
fine, but any other value will do as well, as long as differences
regarding the exact 'tip-over' points for converting em/% into px is
taken into account so all browsers display text (more or less) in the
same size to begin with.

It doesn't matter whether 'em' or '%' are used for text-elements  
further

in, since the IE-bug bug is only triggered on body itself.


Thanks for the feedback on this IE bug.

As I said I've not experienced this before, so I'm kind of intrigued.  
Out of interest, how does the bug manifest its self on our site?


It seems that a lot of people know about it and know the "fix".  
However there doesn't really seem to be much in the way of  
documentation. If anybody can find some URL's, I'd appreciate it.


Yours

Andy Budd

http://www.andybudd.com/
01273 241355
07880 636677

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RE: [WSG] keyboard onclick activation on Mac

[Patrick Lauke]

> Golding, Antony

> Try adding the 'onclick' code into an 'onkeypress' entry also...

However, in Firefox - and, if I recall correctly, Mozilla (Seamonkey) as
well - a tab also counts as a keypress. Therefore, simply tabbing to the
link and attempting to tab to the next one will trigger the onkeypress
event. In this case, the user starts tabbing, and all of a sudden the
print dialog comes up...

Patrick
__
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Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com

[Andy Budd]

On 21 Sep 2005, at 00:56, Lindsay Evans wrote:


Hi Andy,

Site looks great, nice and clean.
And don't listen to any of these 'the font is too big' comments,  
it's just

about perfect for my aging eyes (great, now I feel old :


Thanks. Glad you like it.

* I kind of expected the entire green background of the navigation  
items to

be clickable, not a biggy though.


Yes, I agree. A few people have mentioned this so its on the todo list.

Cheers

Andy Budd

http://www.andybudd.com/
01273 241355
07880 636677

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Re: [WSG] Verb this link (WAS Click here--reference)

[matt andrews]

On 21/09/05, Blank Blank <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>  
> On 9/21/05, Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm not on this "don't use verbs" boat at all because I haven't yet
> > found (or just missed :( ) a justification for it.  While I don't by
> > default, or even often, use a verb in a link, sometimes I do.
> > For instance, one of the pages on a current project allows you to view 
> > a video.
> > The link is Download Video Now, on the
> > download page, but the links throughout the site that point to that
> > page say similar to:
> > "You can view a video clip"
> > The difference is that one points to a page and one allows you to do
> > something (in this case view a movie)
> > Verbs can be very useful. I don't understand the blanket ban. 
> > 
> > At the same time, I wouldn't be terribly upset to see:
> > "You can view a video clip"
> > 
> > Why is this bad?
> > 
> > warmly,
> > 
>  
>  Although to view a video, one technically needs to download it first (or at
> least a portion of it -- ie streaming), I think the real problem with using
> verbs in link text, is that you are assuming the user will do something, or
> that something is going to happen.
>  
>  In the video example, one may have an embedded movie player in their
> browser, hence I would think of this as "playing" a video, as opposed to
> "downloading" it.
>  
>  Evening "viewing" could be thought of as inappropriate, what if the user is
> blind?
>  
>  Although it's quite bland, something along the lines of:
>  A video clip is available.
> 
>  makes more sense to me.
>  
>  Cheers,
>  
>  Daniel Nitsche
>  


I'm with Lea here.

What about 'Search'?  'Browse'?  Trying to do grammatical acrobatics
to turn these into non-verbs is, to me, ridiculous and
counter-productive.

There are many many cases where a user is, in down-to-basics terms,
taking an action when they follow a link.  No matter whether the
technical reality is that they are being presented with a static
document... in straightforward user terms, it's taking an action.

This is one guideline I disagree with and will not be following.
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