date:20051002

Okay, most of the points I made still apply. 1) is out, because you've
ditched the JS menu. 2, 3, 4, 5 (less now) and 7 still apply. You've got
images where you could be using background images in a H4 for the
special offers section, and I'd lean towards doing part of your
testimonial bit differently. Perhaps:

p class=testimonialnamespanJoe Coyle,/span President/p and add
the rule
.testimonialname span {font-weight:bold}
to your CSS, instead of
pimg src=Images/Icons/comment.gif width=16 height=16
alt=Client Testimonial /strongJoe Coyle,/strong President/p

...because the name isn't really emphasised (which is what the strong
tag means), only styled differently, and the image has no semantic
weight (you've already said Client testimonial in the H2 immediately
above).

Text resizing isn't so bad, if you're prepared to accept your nav bar
breaking so quickly (it only scales one step up in Firefox here).

Only other suggestion I've got is to perhaps stick the Plans starting
at $24.95/month server graphic as part of a link background, instead of
just as an image... and, if you _do_ want to retain the image, change
the alt text to something more meaningful than web servers -- Plans
starting at $24.95/month would do nicely.

Regards,

Josh

On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 00:21 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 Josh,
 
 My sincere apologies!!
 
 I failed to provide the URL to the development environment for the redesign:
 
 http://www.webnetdesignstudios.com/index1.htm
 
 This is my current site, and one of the reasons I've decided to implement a 
 re-design.
 
 Sorry for the miscommunication.
 
 Kind regards,
 Mario
 
 
 
  A few suggestions, in order of markup.
 
  1) The JS menus are okay, if everything listed in them is accessible some 
  other way.
 
  2) Your non-JavaScript link list (topnavbar) should be a list. And the 
  bullet images would be
  better as background images or
  list-style-image's.
 
  3) Instead of having an image for your header, consider having a H1 that 
  says WebNet Design
  Studios: A Progressive Web Design and Development Group and use an 
  image-replacement technique.
  As the page title, this should carry greater semantic weight than it does 
  at present, which is
  why I'd lean towards a H1 rather than a semantically neutral div with an 
  img inside.
 
  4) If you change that to be a H1, then (this one is open to conjecture) I 
  think all the other
  H1s on your page should become H2, etc.
 
  5) Currently, your H1s have images inside them. Setting padding-left and a 
  background-image
  would be a better alternative here. Use id or class to differentiate the 
  images between headers,
  if this is what you need (at the minute, it looks like that's what your 
  design aims for).
 
  6) You have a table that's semantically inappropriate under the Consumer 
  Shop heading
  (summary=Consumer Shop id=table) -- these links should, again, be an 
  unordered list. To make
  them use the space more
  effectively, you can float them to make their appearance emulate a table. 
  With fluid layouts,
  this has the added benefit of making
  columns appear to appear and disappear as the layout scales -- though 
  this isn't a concern
  here. You can also set a background image for list items instead of 
  including the img tag at
  the start of each.
 
  7) Finally, your footer should also be a list. I would use an image 
  replacement technique here
  again, possibly putting your copyright
  statement in a separate list to enable correct positioning (if you need 
  to... it's possible not
  to, but might be easier that way).
 
 
 
  AND -- this one is important -- text resizing (up) breaks immediately 
  because you've set the
  heights of #integration, #consumer, #special, #starter, #site and #quote in 
  pixels. Unsetting
  all of these doesn't particularly break anything, though when resizing the 
  length of the columns
  relative to one another does fluctuate somewhat (I'm only
  testing in Firefox, here). You can fix this by putting your #clear div 
  INSIDE the #wrapper div,
  so that #wrapper extends as far as it has to, continuing the white 
  background all the way down
  (I think... I've never been completely on top of that whole clearing thing, 
  so I'm not 100% sure
  that'll work... the theory runs something like that, though. Play around.)
 
 
  HTH,
 
  Josh
 
  Kind Regards,
  Joshua Street
 
  base10solutions
  Website:
  http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
  Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
  8572-6021
  Mobile: 0425 808 469
 
  Multimedia  Development  Agency
 
 
   
  E-mails and any
  attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded as confidential. 
  Please do not
  distribute or publish any of the contents of this e-mail without the 
  senderâ#8364;#8482;s
 consent. If you
  have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to 
  the e-mail, and then
  delete the

Re: [WSG] Site Review: www.47words.com

2005-10-02 Thread Wybe Weysters





Hi Nolan

I like it.
I was a bit surprised by the blue on hover. Surprise is good, but i
don't know about the blue.

In your search option you use some _javascript_ which isn't very stable.
If the focus is on the input field and i reload the page (in FF) the
hole thing is gone. No input field, no "Search".
You use the eventhandler 'onclick'. Try 'onfocus'. Bobby likes 'onfocus', so do
visitors who don't use a mouse.

I've not been able to verify this because i haven't got Helvetica
installed on my PC, but Helvetica for PC is supposed to be
this cheap, terrible looking font. For Mac it's fine. Maybe someone can
comment on that?
If this is true about Helvetica i would use Arial in my font-family:
"Century Gothic", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;

Nice work.

Wybe
http://www.sceneone.nl


Nolan Winthrop wrote:

  I've finally bit the bullet and built a fairly (I hope) standards
compliant website, 47 Words (http://www.47words.com).  I've just run
it through the W3 Validators (CSS and XHTML) and it validates.

I'd really appreciate comments on the code, design, any ways I could
make the markup more semantic, et cetera.  Information on how things
appear in Safari and other Mac browsers greatly appreciated, too, as
I'm running Win XP.

Thanks in advance.

Nolan Winthrop
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[WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/

Hey guys,

If you wouldn't mind checking out my website,
http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/, I would greatly appreciate
it. There is one thing in particular I would like help with - On
the homepage, the 3 large images are divs w/background images, and
display:block hyperlinks. It works fine, but it fails WAI WCAG
1.0 Priority 2 Checkpoint 13.1 - 
Create link phrases   
that make sense when read out of context. I know it can be fixed
by changing my p's to span's and moving them inside the
hyperlinks, but is that something I should do? The text in the
p's is good, but I don't think it's worthy of being in a
hyperlink. Would it be best to create a short sentence to go in
the hyperlinks that briefly describes the page the user will get when
the link is clicked, or ?

Any assistance on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
You're welcome to poke around for other problems (I know have a few
sementic naming issues in my CSS) because I always like feedback.

Thanks a bundle guys!

--Zachary Hopkins

* Reference Links:
 Website: http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/
 W3C WCAG: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/
-- ==The best way to predict the future is to invent it.  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net

Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

2005-10-02 Thread standards

Hi Josh,

I appreciate your input, and I concur with some of your points, and will apply 
the changes
accordingly. However, I think using strong to emphasize the author of the 
testimonial is
perfectly acceptable. To create a rule and use span tag is overkill. 
Additionally, the image is
to provide a soft visual touch, I realize the importance of clean, well-written 
code and content,
but the Internet is also a visual medium.

I don't agree that every horizontal navbar should be in a list especially since 
display:inline 
isn't supported in IE5, but that's a personal preference.

Again, I thank you for your advice, and as always I continue to learn more 
about standards design
by being a part of this list!

Respectfully yours,
Mario


 Okay, most of the points I made still apply. 1) is out, because you've 
 ditched the JS menu. 2,
 3, 4, 5 (less now) and 7 still apply. You've got images where you could be 
 using background
 images in a H4 for the
 special offers section, and I'd lean towards doing part of your
 testimonial bit differently. Perhaps:

 p class=testimonialnamespanJoe Coyle,/span President/p and add the 
 rule
 .testimonialname span {font-weight:bold}
 to your CSS, instead of
 pimg src=Images/Icons/comment.gif width=16 height=16
 alt=Client Testimonial /strongJoe Coyle,/strong President/p

 ...because the name isn't really emphasised (which is what the strong tag 
 means), only styled
 differently, and the image has no semantic weight (you've already said 
 Client testimonial in
 the H2 immediately above).

 Text resizing isn't so bad, if you're prepared to accept your nav bar 
 breaking so quickly (it
 only scales one step up in Firefox here).

 Only other suggestion I've got is to perhaps stick the Plans starting at 
 $24.95/month server
 graphic as part of a link background, instead of just as an image... and, if 
 you _do_ want to
 retain the image, change the alt text to something more meaningful than web 
 servers -- Plans
 starting at $24.95/month would do nicely.

 Regards,

 Josh

 On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 00:21 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Josh,

 My sincere apologies!!

 I failed to provide the URL to the development environment for the redesign:

 http://www.webnetdesignstudios.com/index1.htm

 This is my current site, and one of the reasons I've decided to implement a 
 re-design.

 Sorry for the miscommunication.

 Kind regards,
 Mario



  A few suggestions, in order of markup.
 
  1) The JS menus are okay, if everything listed in them is accessible some 
  other way.
 
  2) Your non-JavaScript link list (topnavbar) should be a list. And the 
  bullet images would
 be better as background images or
  list-style-image's.
 
  3) Instead of having an image for your header, consider having a H1 that 
  says WebNet Design
 Studios: A Progressive Web Design and Development Group and use an 
 image-replacement
 technique. As the page title, this should carry greater semantic weight than 
 it does at
 present, which is why I'd lean towards a H1 rather than a semantically 
 neutral div with an
 img inside.
 
  4) If you change that to be a H1, then (this one is open to conjecture) I 
  think all the
 other H1s on your page should become H2, etc.
 
  5) Currently, your H1s have images inside them. Setting padding-left and a 
  background-image
 would be a better alternative here. Use id or class to differentiate the 
 images between
 headers, if this is what you need (at the minute, it looks like that's what 
 your design aims
 for).
 
  6) You have a table that's semantically inappropriate under the Consumer 
  Shop heading
 (summary=Consumer Shop id=table) -- these links should, again, be an 
 unordered list. To
 make them use the space more
  effectively, you can float them to make their appearance emulate a table. 
  With fluid
 layouts, this has the added benefit of making
  columns appear to appear and disappear as the layout scales -- though 
  this isn't a concern
 here. You can also set a background image for list items instead of 
 including the img tag
 at the start of each.
 
  7) Finally, your footer should also be a list. I would use an image 
  replacement technique
 here again, possibly putting your copyright
  statement in a separate list to enable correct positioning (if you need 
  to... it's possible
 not to, but might be easier that way).
 
 
 
  AND -- this one is important -- text resizing (up) breaks immediately 
  because you've set the
 heights of #integration, #consumer, #special, #starter, #site and #quote in 
 pixels.
 Unsetting all of these doesn't particularly break anything, though when 
 resizing the length
 of the columns relative to one another does fluctuate somewhat (I'm only
  testing in Firefox, here). You can fix this by putting your #clear div 
  INSIDE the #wrapper
 div, so that #wrapper extends as far as it has to, continuing the white 
 background all the
 way down (I think... I've never been completely on top of that whole 
 clearing thing,

Re: [WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/

Hopkins Programming wrote:
 
 http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/

Your px sized containers aren't giving their content enough room to fit:
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/hopkinsp1.png

If you set height in em's vertical inadequacy shouldn't happen.
-- 
Be quick to listen, slow to speak.James 1:19 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

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Re: [WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/

I can change those. But, the backgrounds are set not to repeat
vertically. So would it be better to a) Let the text flow into
empty white space; b) set a bckgound color and let it flow into that;
or c) let the background repeat?

Also, just how far up should I assume a user may set their text?
Although I design for  in Firefox/Opera, I always make sure the
text can size properly, given IE's +2  -2 operation. But
should I go further?

Thanks!

--ZacharyOn 10/2/05, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hopkins Programming wrote: http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/Your px sized containers aren't giving their content enough room to fit:
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/hopkinsp1.pngIf you set height in em's vertical inadequacy shouldn't happen.--Be
quick to listen, slow to
speak.James
1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409Felix Miata***http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/**
The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help**-- ==
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.  [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net

Re: [WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/

2005-10-02 Thread Christian Montoya

You can't just measure it by IE's +2 and -2, because for users with widescreen displays, the default is something like +1. This is because widescreen Windows XP runs at 120 dpi rather than the standard 96 dpi, and to compensate for small text, the text is automatically set to be larger. Therefore it's best to not assume that all users start from font-size:medium. 
I can change those. But, the backgrounds are set not to repeat
vertically. So would it be better to a) Let the text flow into
empty white space; b) set a bckgound color and let it flow into that;
or c) let the background repeat?I think choice b is the best one.

Re: [WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/

http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm says:

use plain text email

Hopkins Programming wrote:
 
 On 10/2/05, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Hopkins Programming wrote:
 
   http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/
 
  Your px sized containers aren't giving their content enough
  room to fit:
  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/hopkinsp1.png
 
  If you set height in em's vertical inadequacy shouldn't
  happen.

 I can change those. But, the backgrounds are set not to repeat
 vertically. So would it be better to a) Let the text flow into empty
 white space; b) set a bckgound color and let it flow into that; or c)
 let the background repeat?

B should work, but depending on the background images, which I haven't
examined, C might be OK too. I doubt A would be attractive.

 Also, just how far up should I assume a user may set their text?

The 28px setting in that 1792x1344 screenshot is not contrived. It's
directly proportional to the 16px common brower default observed at the
median 1024x768 resolution. 1344 / 768 X 16px = 28px. That makes the
fonts on my 1792x1344 screen exactly the same physical size on any given
size display as those using 16px at 1024x768, except that due to the far
higher pixel density for any given size mine have a far superior quality
even without anti aliasing or hinting.

 Although I design for  in Firefox/Opera, I always make sure the text
 can size properly, given IE's +2  -2 operation. But should I go
 further?
 
To say IE has a +2 -2 range isn't the whole story. Medium is actually
12pt, not 16px, though by default they happen to be the same thing. Doze
users have the option to change font size system wide, and it is on this
base that we find IE font sizes. Once they choose large (120 DPI, the
OEM default on many laptops) or larger (there really is no fixed limit,
though 200% is the largest that is easy to select), the base range is
increased quite a bit, as you can see in this chart in the left table:
http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html
-- 
Be quick to listen, slow to speak.James 1:19 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

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[WSG] Hacks / Work Arounds for IE Mac and Old er IE Pc versions

2005-10-02 Thread sam sherlock





I have noticed that
some repeated background are not displaying in IE 5.5 since everything
else works I was wondering if the background issue could be resolved?


Also the perspective
from IE Mac is messy the styles are not applied or have obscure
results. I am not on mac so testing is a little harder


I believe that in other
circumstances everything works fine




the link is
www.phuturetrax.co.uk/v1/home/ - takes you straight in 




I would be interested
to hear suggestions on methods for improving display across platformss
/ browsers
 - IE Mac - OS9
 - IE Mac - OSX
 - other OS X
broswers (I think everything works fine)
 

I was thinking of using an overriding style sheet for IE Mac using the
following hack 


/* IE5/Mac Only Styles
   Uses the IE5/Mac Band Pass Filter:
   http://stopdesign.com/examples/ie5mac-bpf/
--- */
/*\*//*/
  @import url("ie5mac.css");
/**/

what are the groups thoughts on this hack? does it work? is there a better way?



Thanks in advance, Sam S

Re: [WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/

Ok guys, I've reworked some of the heights and background images to allow for extended text resizing.

I think I got all of the big stuff, does it look work ok for you now Felix?

--ZacharyOn 10/2/05, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm says:use plain text emailHopkins Programming wrote: On 10/2/05, Felix Miata
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hopkins Programming wrote: http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/Your px sized containers aren't giving their content enough
room to fit:http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/hopkinsp1.pngIf you set height in em's vertical inadequacy shouldn'thappen.
I can change those. But, the backgrounds are set not to repeat vertically. So would it be better to a) Let the text flow into empty white space; b) set a bckgound color and let it flow into that; or c)
let the background repeat?B should work, but depending on the background images, which I haven'texamined, C might be OK too. I doubt A would be attractive. Also, just how far up should I assume a user may set their text?
The 28px setting in that 1792x1344 screenshot is not contrived. It'sdirectly proportional to the 16px common brower default observed at themedian 1024x768 resolution. 1344 / 768 X 16px = 28px. That makes the
fonts on my 1792x1344 screen exactly the same physical size on any givensize display as those using 16px at 1024x768, except that due to the farhigher pixel density for any given size mine have a far superior quality
even without anti aliasing or hinting. Although I design for in Firefox/Opera, I always make sure the text can size properly, given IE's +2 -2 operation. But should I go further?
To say IE has a +2 -2 range isn't the whole story. Medium is actually12pt, not 16px, though by default they happen to be the same thing. Dozeusers have the option to change font size system wide, and it is on this
base that we find IE font sizes. Once they choose large (120 DPI, theOEM default on many laptops) or larger (there really is no fixed limit,though 200% is the largest that is easy to select), the base range is
increased quite a bit, as you can see in this chart in the left table:http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html--Be
quick to listen, slow to
speak.James
1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409Felix Miata***http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/**
The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help**-- ==
The best way to predict the future is to invent it. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net

Re: [WSG] Site Review: www.47words.com

2005-10-02 Thread Nolan Winthrop

Thanks for the comments, Georg, Wybe.  I've made some corrections to
it: notably shifting to percentages and ems for font-sizes; changing
to onfocus for the search form.

I do have one question that just came up while I was chatting with a
friend:  Does the hreflang attribute on links do anything, really, or
is it just a cosmetic thing that no browser does anything with?  (I'm
using it on links to materials in Mandarin/Malay to indicate that the
content of those sites/pages is in a language other than English.)

I think I'll ignore IE Mac for the time being, it seems to be a
negligible proportion of my readers anyway.  I was mostly worried
about how it would render in Safari.

Nolan Winthrop
http://www.47words.com/
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Re: [WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/

Hopkins Programming wrote:
 
  http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/

 Ok guys, I've reworked some of the heights and background images to
 allow for extended text resizing.
 
 I think I got all of the big stuff, does it look  work ok for you now
 Felix?

You're still not giving several things enough space:
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/hopkinsp2.png
-- 
Be quick to listen, slow to speak.James 1:19 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

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Re: [WSG] Site Review: hopkinsprogramming.net/

Ok, For the moment being, I am going to ignore the links in the top right corner and the fieldset in the bottom left.

What do you think about the WAI issue? Keep the p's and
add in a small span of text inside the link, or put all of the
p text into a span and use that?

--zacharyOn 10/2/05, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hopkins Programming wrote:  http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net/ Ok guys, I've reworked some of the heights and background images to allow for extended text resizing.
 I think I got all of the big stuff, does it look  work ok for you now Felix?You're still not giving several things enough space:http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/hopkinsp2.png
--Be
quick to listen, slow to
speak.James
1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409Felix Miata***http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/**
The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help**-- ==
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.  [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hopkinsprogramming.net

RE: [WSG] Forums review

2005-10-02 Thread Peter Williams

 From: John S. Britsios
 
 I would highly appreciate if you would come over, and have a 
 look at our new forums, and tell us your opinion or suggestions.
 URI: http://forums.webnauts.net

I tried to join using my name as the username, I was rejected
with the reason given being that the name was reserved.
So I had to use my initials.
Then when my passowrd arrived I logged in and wanted to change
the password to something other than a randow string of letters.
I went to Control Panel/Options, couldn't see any way to change it,
went to FAQ, it wasn't mentioned.

Note that the email that comes out with the password has a generic
Login Information or similar subject line, would be better if it
was branded, such as: Webnauts forums - Login info.
That way when you file the instructional email, you can find it again
later when you need it.

So I tried to use U2U (never seen it called that before, it is
usually called Private Message or PM), No address list so I tried
Administrator (thinking that would be a standard contact point),
no such user, went back to forum area, saw Webnauts as a user
making demo posts, so tried that as a To: address, seemed to work.

So there is a quick summary of my initial user experience.
The forums look pretty, the orange/blue/purple combi is attractive.

Text size on the top nav is too big and Board Rules is always
wrapped for me, it could easily be half or two-thirds the size
it is now and still be effective in my opinion. 

-- 
Peter Williams
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Re: [WSG] Site Review: www.47words.com

Nolan Winthrop wrote:
 
 http://www.47words.com

You're not providing enough width for all content to fit in the allotted
space . . .

http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/47words1.png

. . . nor the content enough size to be comfortably read:

http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/area76.html

(the content should generally be larger than the browser UI):

http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/defaultsize.html#note1

You don't know what you're subjecting to a 24% reduction on
http://www.47words.com/lib/css/layout.css with 'body {font: 76%/1.33em
...}', so please change it to 'body {font: 100%/1.33 ...}' to respect
your visitors' text size preferences. 
-- 
Be quick to listen, slow to speak.James 1:19 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

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[WSG] WE05

2005-10-02 Thread Katrina


Gday,

I was lucky enough to be able to attend WE05, and I was listening to 
something Tantek Celik said and I've been mulling it over for a few 
days, and I just thought I'd ask a group who'd know.


Context: I'm a uni student, so I don't know much.

Going back to Tantek Celik, he was referring to meaningful markup and he 
said


Who has ever seen a div with a class of header? Why not use a header 
(eg.h1) element?


I may not have understood that. I may have misheard that. I'm sorry if I 
did.


Aren't the header tags reserved for text? Is it acceptable form to place 
non-textual elements only inside of header tags? Eg. h1img 
src=image.jpg alt=An image/h1 ?


Kat
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Re: [WSG] WE05

2005-10-02 Thread Patrick H. Lauke


Katrina wrote:


Aren't the header tags reserved for text?  Is it acceptable form to place
non-textual elements only inside of header tags? Eg. h1img 
src=image.jpg alt=An image/h1 ?


You can put any inline content inside a heading...so an image (as long 
as it has a proper alt attribute) is just fine, even for things like 
screen readers.


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] WE05

2005-10-02 Thread Aaron Tate


Quoting Katrina [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Gday,

I was lucky enough to be able to attend WE05, and I was listening to 
something Tantek Celik said and I've been mulling it over for a few 
days, and I just thought I'd ask a group who'd know.


Context: I'm a uni student, so I don't know much.

Going back to Tantek Celik, he was referring to meaningful markup and he said

Who has ever seen a div with a class of header? Why not use a header 
(eg.h1) element?


I may not have understood that. I may have misheard that. I'm sorry if I did.

Aren't the header tags reserved for text? Is it acceptable form to 
place non-textual elements only inside of header tags? Eg. h1img 
src=image.jpg alt=An image/h1 ?


I dont beleive it is, however it is perfectly acceptable to set the 
image to the

css background property, and use negative indentation to remove the text from
the display.



Kat
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Re: [WSG] WE05

2005-10-02 Thread leenath1


Hi Kat,

I was there too (WE05) and heard the same line! What Tantek was referring to 
was saying if your header for your webpage JUST contains say a title and 
logo, then there may be no need whatsoever to include the extra div 
element (i.e. a h1 with a background image and text). So what Tantek was 
getting at was for us to challenge ourselves to make sure when marking-up a 
page we don't fall into the trap of thinking everyone includes container, 
content, header and footer div's, so therefore that must be the standard. 
He was making us critically look at every element included in the page and 
to make sure we only include the least amount and most semantic elements 
possible. At least that's what I thought he was getting at.


Regards

Nathan

- Original Message - 
From: Katrina [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 10:35 AM
Subject: [WSG] WE05



Gday,

I was lucky enough to be able to attend WE05, and I was listening to 
something Tantek Celik said and I've been mulling it over for a few days, 
and I just thought I'd ask a group who'd know.


Context: I'm a uni student, so I don't know much.

Going back to Tantek Celik, he was referring to meaningful markup and he 
said


Who has ever seen a div with a class of header? Why not use a header 
(eg.h1) element?


I may not have understood that. I may have misheard that. I'm sorry if I 
did.


Aren't the header tags reserved for text? Is it acceptable form to place 
non-textual elements only inside of header tags? Eg. h1img 
src=image.jpg alt=An image/h1 ?


Kat
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Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 12:22 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 I appreciate your input, and I concur with some of your points, and will 
 apply the changes
 accordingly. However, I think using strong to emphasize the author of the 
 testimonial is
 perfectly acceptable. To create a rule and use span tag is overkill. 
 Additionally, the image is
 to provide a soft visual touch, I realize the importance of clean, 
 well-written code and content,
 but the Internet is also a visual medium.

The Internet _is_ a visual medium, but, certainly in this instance, the
visual element isn't content. (Cases where visual-only elements would be
are photo galleries and sparkline graphics, et al.) This is a field in
which absolutes are hard to find, but I personally think in this case
your visual elements don't contribute to the _content_ of your site, but
rather the presentation. This applies to both that server graphic and to
the strong thing (though the latter is more debatable).

If you want to _emphasise_ the author, then strong is correct. To me,
that doesn't look as though it's something you would stress if you spoke
it, so I'd use a child selector and span tag as per my suggestion. It
seems to me to be a design decision, rather than a semantic one. But
maybe not.

 I don't agree that every horizontal navbar should be in a list especially 
 since display:inline 
 isn't supported in IE5, but that's a personal preference.

I wasn't aware this was an issue:
http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/ie5b.html#display would suggest that
it's not.
http://wellstyled.com/singlelang.php?lang=enpage=css-inline-blocks.html
has some more that looks related... it looks achievable, but I haven't
got IE5 here to test.

Kind Regards,
Joshua Street

base10solutions
Website:
http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
8572-6021
Mobile: 0425 808 469

Multimedia  Development  Agency



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RE: [WSG] WE05

2005-10-02 Thread Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]

 -Original Message-
 From: Katrina [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Monday, 3 October 2005 10:35 AM
 To: Web Standards Group
 Subject: [WSG] WE05

 Who has ever seen a div with a class of header? Why not use a header 
 (eg.h1) element?

 Aren't the header tags reserved for text? Is it acceptable 
 form to place 
 non-textual elements only inside of header tags? Eg. h1img 
 src=image.jpg alt=An image/h1 ?

Placing an image in the h1 tag should be fine, as long as it actually is a
heading. 

However, using a h1 for an entire header (top area of a page) I think is a
misuse of the tag. h1 is meant for headings, not headers. A heading, to
my understanding, is the title of a piece of content and there will be
generally one individual heading per page. A header is the top area of a
website and actually a markup of layout, not content.

If we started putting our entire headers into h1 tags we would end up with
a lot of crap in them that doesn't belong there. People might start dumping
banners, logos and other stuff into the h1 tags. Would be great for search
engine optimisation, but not really agreeable with correct markup. :)

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Re: [WSG] Page templates submitted for review (discard previous mail)

2005-10-02 Thread Alan Trick

Yes. It's not as evil as some things, but it is certainly bad practice.
You'd be much better off using HTML 4.01 (which is, last time I checked
a valid spec).

Julián Landerreche wrote:
 As long as I know, you shouldnt serve XHTML 1.1 as text/html. You
 should serve it as text/xml, or application/xhtml+xml
 I read it may be... dangerous!
 
 But, of course, I dont really understand what I'm talking about I'm
 just repeating what I have read on several sites.
 
 Julián
 Christian Montoya wrote:

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Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

2005-10-02 Thread Michael Wilson


Hi,

I haven't followed this thread completely, but I wanted to comment on 
this specific post because some of your comments caught my eye and 
another view may come in handy.



However, I think using strong to emphasize the author of the
testimonial is perfectly acceptable.


Because it's not going to bring about the total destruction of mankind, 
you are more right than not in the world of living and breathing, but in 
the world of standards, it's not acceptable and it's wrong. You might as 
well use a hn to ad visual emphasis. You are attempting to visually 
draw the readers eye to the name (e.g. bold), not necessarily add a 
strong emphasis. If it is visual, it presentation. If it's presentation, 
it's not structure.



To create a rule and use span tag is overkill.


I totally agree and, generally, I try not to use spans. Instead I mark 
up my document in such a way, limited as they are, the tags are as 
semantic as possible, while at the same time, provide me with hooks into 
my content without redundancy.


Someone (Josh I suppose) suggested that you use a span for the 
testimonial, and while that is allot better (semantically speaking) than 
what you are doing now, it wouldn't have been my first choice. I would 
use a definition list for this:


dl id=testimonial
dtJoe Coyle, President, www.coylemedical.com/dt
ddMr. Cisneros and his team have an extraordinary talent for customer 
communication, market vision, and web page design./dd

dl

And, if you absolutely have to have the commenter's name appear 
*visually* beneath their comments, you could use the following (or 
similar) CSS:


#testimonial * {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}

#testimonial {
width: 400px;
}

#testimonial dt {
margin-top: 80px;
}

#testimonial dd {
float: left;
margin-top: -80px;
}

Of course, you would have to tweak this (margins) per instance and it's 
not thoroughly tested, but should work OK in most browsers.



Additionally, the image is to provide a soft visual touch


There is also nothing stopping you from displaying the little person 
image as a background on your dt, but you certainly shouldn't be using 
an inline image as it is purely presentational and adds nothing to the 
content. If it were a photograph of the speaker, I would use the image 
within an additional dd.


Similarly the images in your header could be a replaced h1. There are 
various methods available to you; most have drawbacks, all are better 
than in a non-semantic, inline image.


In terms of how you display an image on the page the rule is simple: If 
the is content (as in the speaker photograph in the above example), it 
should be in the markup; otherwise, it should not.



I realize the importance of clean, well-written code and content,
but the Internet is also a visual medium.


Ahh, but it is not a visual medium. It is an electronic medium, of 
which, some clients such as Web browsers like Firefox and Internet 
Explorer can display visual presentation. Not all clients can do so 
(screen readers for example) and users can force those that can, to not. 
Paper is a visual medium. You can control all of it down to the glossy 
UV coating, font size, image placement, and texture. You cannot control 
my browser:


CSS off, images, off, font size increased:
http://961media.com/__temp/webnetdesignstudios-1.png

Images off, font size increased:
http://961media.com/__temp/webnetdesignstudios-2.png


I don't agree that every horizontal navbar should be in a list
especially since display:inline isn't supported in IE5, but that's a
personal preference.


There is really no such thing as personal preference when you are 
dealing with a standard of any kind. There is the standard and then 
there is all the other stuff; follow it or don't. There is allot of gray 
in the standard of course, but a list is a list and how IE 5 deals with 
your preferred CSS is not a deciding factor.


All of this aside, IE 5 handles horizontal navs derived from lists just 
fine:


http://web-graphics.com/mtarchive/inline-mini-tabs.html

Most of the advice you will receive here is very sound and if you want 
to learn more about standards design, you'd be wise to heed it. It is 
difficult at times, but it's worth it. The first step, though, is 
unlearning everything you though was acceptable.


--
Best regards,
M. Wilson
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RE: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

2005-10-02 Thread Paul Bennett

 dl id=testimonial
 dtJoe Coyle, President, www.coylemedical.com/dt ddMr. Cisneros and his 
 team have 
 an extraordinary talent for customer communication, market vision, and web 
 page 
 design./dd dl

 feel free to bite my head off - I haven't been following this thread closely. 

There seems to be a tendency lately to use definition lists for way more than I 
think they're supposed to be used for.

In the above example, is this (semantically) equivalent to saying that the 
definition of 'Joe Coyle, President, www'
is
'Mr. Cisneros and his team have an extraordinary talent for customer 
communication, market vision, and web page design'?

Obviously untrue, but I'm open to 'enlightenment' ;)

Paul
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Re: [WSG] WE05

2005-10-02 Thread Kazuhito Kidachi

2005/10/3, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 However, using a h1 for an entire header (top area of a page) I think is a
 misuse of the tag. h1 is meant for headings, not headers. A heading, to
 my understanding, is the title of a piece of content and there will be
 generally one individual heading per page. A header is the top area of a
 website and actually a markup of layout, not content.

I agree. Also, we have * only * 6 levels of headings w/(X)HTML specs.
I prefer to save level for contents' future expansion/update. From
such a view point. I don't want to use h1 at header in each web page -
mostly I mark up site logo as h1 on top page of site.
--
Kazuhito Kidachi
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

2005-10-02 Thread Brett Taylor


On 3/10/2005, at 2:28 PM, Paul Bennett wrote:
There seems to be a tendency lately to use definition lists for  
way more than I think they're supposed to be used for.


As someone who was at WE05, Tantek mentioned that using DL, DT and DD  
for anything other than definition lists is abuse!:


http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/09/elements-of-xhtml/

- It is on slide 33.

--
Cheers,

Brett Taylor
3months.com


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Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

2005-10-02 Thread leenath1

Since the testimonial is basically a quote, why not use the q element? 
Then use the presidents name within the cite element. This way it is 
semantic, and you still get to style the presidents name any way that you 
feel fit!


Cheers

Nathan

- Original Message - 
From: Michael Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com



Hi,

I haven't followed this thread completely, but I wanted to comment on this 
specific post because some of your comments caught my eye and another view 
may come in handy.



However, I think using strong to emphasize the author of the
testimonial is perfectly acceptable.


Because it's not going to bring about the total destruction of mankind, 
you are more right than not in the world of living and breathing, but in 
the world of standards, it's not acceptable and it's wrong. You might as 
well use a hn to ad visual emphasis. You are attempting to visually draw 
the readers eye to the name (e.g. bold), not necessarily add a strong 
emphasis. If it is visual, it presentation. If it's presentation, it's not 
structure.



To create a rule and use span tag is overkill.


I totally agree and, generally, I try not to use spans. Instead I mark up 
my document in such a way, limited as they are, the tags are as semantic 
as possible, while at the same time, provide me with hooks into my content 
without redundancy.


Someone (Josh I suppose) suggested that you use a span for the 
testimonial, and while that is allot better (semantically speaking) than 
what you are doing now, it wouldn't have been my first choice. I would use 
a definition list for this:


dl id=testimonial
dtJoe Coyle, President, www.coylemedical.com/dt
ddMr. Cisneros and his team have an extraordinary talent for customer 
communication, market vision, and web page design./dd

dl

And, if you absolutely have to have the commenter's name appear *visually* 
beneath their comments, you could use the following (or similar) CSS:


#testimonial * {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}

#testimonial {
width: 400px;
}

#testimonial dt {
margin-top: 80px;
}

#testimonial dd {
float: left;
margin-top: -80px;
}

Of course, you would have to tweak this (margins) per instance and it's 
not thoroughly tested, but should work OK in most browsers.



Additionally, the image is to provide a soft visual touch


There is also nothing stopping you from displaying the little person 
image as a background on your dt, but you certainly shouldn't be using 
an inline image as it is purely presentational and adds nothing to the 
content. If it were a photograph of the speaker, I would use the image 
within an additional dd.


Similarly the images in your header could be a replaced h1. There are 
various methods available to you; most have drawbacks, all are better than 
in a non-semantic, inline image.


In terms of how you display an image on the page the rule is simple: If 
the is content (as in the speaker photograph in the above example), it 
should be in the markup; otherwise, it should not.



I realize the importance of clean, well-written code and content,
but the Internet is also a visual medium.


Ahh, but it is not a visual medium. It is an electronic medium, of which, 
some clients such as Web browsers like Firefox and Internet Explorer can 
display visual presentation. Not all clients can do so (screen readers for 
example) and users can force those that can, to not. Paper is a visual 
medium. You can control all of it down to the glossy UV coating, font 
size, image placement, and texture. You cannot control my browser:


CSS off, images, off, font size increased:
http://961media.com/__temp/webnetdesignstudios-1.png

Images off, font size increased:
http://961media.com/__temp/webnetdesignstudios-2.png


I don't agree that every horizontal navbar should be in a list
especially since display:inline isn't supported in IE5, but that's a
personal preference.


There is really no such thing as personal preference when you are dealing 
with a standard of any kind. There is the standard and then there is all 
the other stuff; follow it or don't. There is allot of gray in the 
standard of course, but a list is a list and how IE 5 deals with your 
preferred CSS is not a deciding factor.


All of this aside, IE 5 handles horizontal navs derived from lists just 
fine:


http://web-graphics.com/mtarchive/inline-mini-tabs.html

Most of the advice you will receive here is very sound and if you want to 
learn more about standards design, you'd be wise to heed it. It is 
difficult at times, but it's worth it. The first step, though, is 
unlearning everything you though was acceptable.


--
Best regards,
M. Wilson
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 12:00 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Since the testimonial is basically a quote, why not use the q element? 
 Then use the presidents name within the cite element. This way it is 
 semantic, and you still get to style the presidents name any way that you 
 feel fit!
 
 Cheers
 
 Nathan

The example everyone is getting excited about isn't actually the right
site... the first email Mario sent had an incorrect URL.

The amended version (see subject: [WSG] HomePage Review: Corrected
URL) lists 
http://www.webnetdesignstudios.com/index1.htm as the correct address.

A quick recap of (this aspect of) the thread follows.

This page displays the testimonial in the form:

pimg src=Images/Icons/comment.gif width=16 height=16
alt=Client Testimonial /strongJoe Coyle,/strong President/p

With the testimonial itself in the proceeding paragraph.

I suggested that use of strong was inappropriate, as you don't really
emphasis the name, it's purely for the visual differentiation of the
name and title (so I understand it, anyway).

p class=testimonialnamespanJoe Coyle,/span President/p and add
the rule
.testimonialname span {font-weight:bold}

Would be, in my thinking, a more semantic alternative (that is, a
semantically neutral alternative with no presentational markup).

Argument about overkill and pedanticism followed. ;-)

Josh Street
base10solutions
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Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

2005-10-02 Thread Lea de Groot

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:23:50 +1000, Joshua Street wrote:
 p class=testimonialnamespanJoe Coyle,/span President/p and add
 the rule
 .testimonialname span {font-weight:bold}

I would give strong consideration to:
p class=testimonialnameciteJoe Coyle,/cite President/p 
 .testimonialname cite {font-weight:bold}

and think about working a q element into the actual quote-paragraph.

Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Page templates submitted for review (discard previous mail)

2005-10-02 Thread Christian Montoya

Hm, I've been thinking about this. As far as I know, serving XHTML 1.1 as xml or xhtml+xml IS dangerous. It's not supported in most browsers. While text/html is not the right way to serve 1.1, it's the only way that works. 
It's the way I serve my 1.1 sites, and I haven't seen any problems. Any thoughts on this? On 10/2/05, Alan Trick 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Yes. It's not as evil as some things, but it is certainly bad practice.
You'd be much better off using HTML 4.01 (which is, last time I checkeda valid spec).Julián Landerreche wrote: As long as I know, you shouldnt serve XHTML 1.1 as text/html. You should serve it as text/xml, or application/xhtml+xml
 I read it may be... dangerous! But, of course, I dont really understand what I'm talking about I'm just repeating what I have read on several sites. Julián Christian Montoya wrote:
**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See 
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-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com

Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

2005-10-02 Thread Christian Montoya

Isn't  b  still valid? If you want to have a weightless way of bolding the text, but don't want to mess with a span, use  b  . On 10/2/05, 
Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:23:50 +1000, Joshua Street wrote: p class=testimonialnamespanJoe Coyle,/span President/p and add the rule .testimonialname span {font-weight:bold}
I would give strong consideration to:p class=testimonialnameciteJoe Coyle,/cite President/p .testimonialname cite {font-weight:bold}and think about working a q element into the actual quote-paragraph.
Lea--Lea de GrootElysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/Brisbane, Australia**The discussion list for
http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... 
liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com

Use of cite WAS: Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 12:39 +1000, Lea de Groot wrote:
 I would give strong consideration to:
 p class=testimonialnameciteJoe Coyle,/cite President/p 
  .testimonialname cite {font-weight:bold}
 
 and think about working a q element into the actual quote-paragraph.

This immediately seems to make sense, but I'm left wondering one thing.

With forms, we are encouraged to make use of the for attribute on label
elements, in order to make the relationship between elements clear. Can
a similar practise apply to cite and q? With blockquote elements we have
the cite attribute, but that is different again and can only be used for
href data.

So... is there any way to define this relationship? Or is it just
order-of-content and hoping it makes sense? What if you were to put the
cite after the quote for whatever reason (style guide convention, etc)?

Kind Regards,
Joshua Street

base10solutions
Website:
http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
8572-6021
Mobile: 0425 808 469

Multimedia  Development  Agency



E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded
as confidential. Please do not distribute or publish any of the contents
of this e-mail without the sender’s consent. If you have received this
e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to the e-mail, and
then delete the message without making copies or using it in any way.

Although base10solutions takes precautions to ensure that e-mail sent
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base10solutions accepts no responsibility for loss or damage caused by
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Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com