Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.
G'day heretic wrote: Actually, I think some of the benefits touted for large-scale sites are actually more urgently required and keenly noticed by small business. In particular... The problem is that many small/micro businesses don't see it (y)our way. They only see the shiny coat of paint, not the rust underneath it, or the engine under the bonnet. Bombarding them with technical jargon isn't going to help. They just see a web page in their browser. It either looks good or it doesn't. # maintenance In my experience, standards-compliant sites are far easier (hence faster and cheaper) to maintain Only if the person maintaining it understands standards in the first place. It's no use to a FontPlague jockey who wants to maintain his/her own site. small business really need to minimise costs. Every dollar counts. Yep, so they want to maintain the site themselves. See above. # lower bandwidth Many small businesses have a very small web budget and very very low bandwidth on their hosting. Nearly all my customers are on a very cheap plan with (virtually) unlimited bandwidth, so perhaps the rest are paying too much. Besides, if they are getting so much traffic that bandwidth becomes a problem, they are probably making enough money to pay for more. Of course, having 1MB of graphics or flash on the home page isn't going to help, but that's not a standards issue. # seo Small businesses need good search engine visibility, far more than bigger businesses in many ways. Sure, a flash-only or frames based site is not SEO friendly, but I have seen no clear evidence that a clean, Strict (x)html site gets any better treatment than a site with tag-soup. There are many other factors that influence SEO, but this is of course not the place to discuss those. # accessibility Many are either unaware, don't care or are willing to take the chance. Besides, a standard compliant website is not necessarily more accessible than a site with tag-soup, although it may help. # usability Standards compliant does not necessarily equal usable, nor does tagsoup necessarily equal unusable. Small businesses need more longevity in their website. If they have decent style/content separation they can redesign in future without redoing every single page. It'd be like having the ability to change their stock of letterhead without paying to have it printed again (ie. just pay for the design). True, but many of them don't plan that far ahead. Small businesses often have to prove that everything they do is better than the big businesses... so their website needs to reflect that. Define better, from the (non web design) small business owner's point of view. I think that's what this whole thread is about... The majority of their customers/visitors to their website will not know the difference, so why should the business owner care? Sorry, I'm out of 1 and 2 cent coins. -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A hand with text wrapping around images in CSS?
Lea can you tell me how you do that exactly? Code it? Thanks, John Lea de Groot wrote: On 06/02/2006, at 5:30 PM, John S. Britsios wrote: I would like to ask here, if there is a possibility making my texts wrap around the bottom of my images here http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/test.html, without becoming rubbish when resizing the page. We've discussed this one before (a long time ago - I remember because last time it was me who asked :)) and concluded that it can only be done by including the IMG element in the HTML and floating it. If anyone has thought up something since I would love to hear it, as I go for this effect all the time. :( Lea ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A hand with text wrapping around images in CSS?
Nice site John... At 06:30 PM 6/02/2006, you wrote: Hi everyone, I would like to ask here, if there is a possibility making my texts wrap around the bottom of my images here http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/test.html, without becoming rubbish when resizing the page. Thanks in advance for your kind help. Best wishes and regards, John ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Best Regards Ray Cauchi Manager/Lead Developer ( T W E E K ! ) PO Box 15 Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 2782 | p:+61 2 4757 1600 | f: +61 2 4757 3808 | m: 0414 270 400 | e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | w: http://www.tweek.com.au
Re: [WSG] A hand with text wrapping around images in CSS?
Actually, when I examine your css more closely - you are already doing this, although you havent applied a width to make the float valid... Apologies for being nitpicky here but a width does not need to be applied to images that are floated as they already have intrinsic width. A floated box must have an explicit width (assigned via the 'width' property, or its intrinsic width in the case of replaced elements). http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html#floats In HTML, the following elements are examples of replaced elements: IMG, INPUT, TEXTAREA, SELECT, and OBJECT elements. Thanks Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But this definition list code I feel is not the most semantic way to solve the problem (not using the dl as it was intended). However, I also feel that what I have currently is also not perfect (and if it is, is em better than strong??). Hi Nathan, why don't you think a definition list is appropriate? Seems spot on, to me... Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description...Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words.[1] div id=customer-details h3Welcome Frankh3 dl dtCustomer Identification Number (CID):/dt dd100 223 578/dd dtLast accessed/dt ddFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/dd /dl /div There is a clear relationship between the label and the content, so in my opinion this content would suit either a definition list or a table. A table would be overkill here, but still theoretically appropriate because the number for CID would have no independent meaning without the associated label. I don't think there is any semantic or practical difference between em and strong, personally. I would be guided by how appropriate the traditional visual rendering of these is to the content. e.g. the name of a sea-going vessel is traditionally italicised, so I would use em in that case. (Not that it comes up a lot.) Hope this helps Cheers Ian PS - Hello all on WSG - this is my first post :). Looks like a great list. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 -- _ zStudio - Web development and accessibility http://zStudio.co.uk Snippetz.net - Online code library File, manage and re-use your code snippets links http://snippetz.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A hand with text wrapping around images in CSS?
Lea,
I did that but it still doesn't work. See example here:
http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/testing.html
Thanks,
John
Lea de Groot wrote:
On 06/02/2006, at 6:56 PM, John S. Britsios wrote:
Lea can you tell me how you do that exactly? Code it?
Sure!
looks at page
Oh, you're almost there.
eg.
html:
h2Usability Testing/h2
pimg class=left src=images/usability.jpg alt= /span
class=fettUsability/span is the measure of the quality of a
user's experience when interacting with a product.../p
Add CSS:
p img.left {
float: left;
width: 100px; /* whatever the width of the image is */
margin: 0 0 0.5em 0.5em; /* I like to put a little padding on the
image, for white space */
}
Actually, when I examine your css more closely - you are already
doing this, although you havent applied a width to make the float
valid...
HIH!
Lea
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Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
Thanks Ian, Thanks for your reply! I just felt that a definition list was intended to define terms. For example: h2JAWS (X)HTML interpretationsh2 dl dt em (Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to emphasise the words contained within the em element/dd dl strong (Strong Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to STRONGLY emphasise the words contained within the strong element/dd /dl However, in my case, I just felt that 100 223 578 does not define Customer Identification Number (CID). When I see Customer Identification Number (CID), I would expect to see the dd to be something like The unique identification number assigned to a every customer to ensure the system only accesses the appropriate users data. So am I wrong in my thinking about definitions lists?? Can a random bunch of digits such as 100 223 578 really be a definition that means Customer Identification Number?? If someone can qualify these questions, then I guess I will be convinced that this is the most semantic way to solve my problem. Regards, Nathan - Original Message - From: Ian Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But this definition list code I feel is not the most semantic way to solve the problem (not using the dl as it was intended). However, I also feel that what I have currently is also not perfect (and if it is, is em better than strong??). Hi Nathan, why don't you think a definition list is appropriate? Seems spot on, to me... Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description...Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words.[1] div id=customer-details h3Welcome Frankh3 dl dtCustomer Identification Number (CID):/dt dd100 223 578/dd dtLast accessed/dt ddFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/dd /dl /div There is a clear relationship between the label and the content, so in my opinion this content would suit either a definition list or a table. A table would be overkill here, but still theoretically appropriate because the number for CID would have no independent meaning without the associated label. I don't think there is any semantic or practical difference between em and strong, personally. I would be guided by how appropriate the traditional visual rendering of these is to the content. e.g. the name of a sea-going vessel is traditionally italicised, so I would use em in that case. (Not that it comes up a lot.) Hope this helps Cheers Ian PS - Hello all on WSG - this is my first post :). Looks like a great list. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 -- _ zStudio - Web development and accessibility http://zStudio.co.uk Snippetz.net - Online code library File, manage and re-use your code snippets links http://snippetz.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
Nathan I have considered this myself. Its almost tabular data really - th and td - in some respects more so than a definition list. I have built my own cms over the years which outputs similar data - these days i just use : pstrongTitle/strong data/p I do not think a standard ordered, or unordered, list qualifies, and I do not think a definition list qualifies either, but I am loathe to use a table for 4 lines of user related login data ray At 09:46 PM 6/02/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Ian, Thanks for your reply! I just felt that a definition list was intended to define terms. For example: h2JAWS (X)HTML interpretationsh2 dl dt em (Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to emphasise the words contained within the em element/dd dl strong (Strong Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to STRONGLY emphasise the words contained within the strong element/dd /dl However, in my case, I just felt that 100 223 578 does not define Customer Identification Number (CID). When I see Customer Identification Number (CID), I would expect to see the dd to be something like The unique identification number assigned to a every customer to ensure the system only accesses the appropriate users data. So am I wrong in my thinking about definitions lists?? Can a random bunch of digits such as 100 223 578 really be a definition that means Customer Identification Number?? If someone can qualify these questions, then I guess I will be convinced that this is the most semantic way to solve my problem. Regards, Nathan Best Regards Ray Cauchi Manager/Lead Developer ( T W E E K ! ) PO Box 15 Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 2782 | p:+61 2 4757 1600 | f: +61 2 4757 3808 | m: 0414 270 400 | e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | w: http://www.tweek.com.au
Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
I would agree with you, it seems as if a definition list should only be used for 'concise' definitions. However, common usage has made it mean any list of key=value pairs. I guess that it is how the majority of people interpret a standard that really defines it. Stephen On 6 Feb 2006, at 10:46, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Ian, Thanks for your reply! I just felt that a definition list was intended to define terms. For example: h2JAWS (X)HTML interpretationsh2 dl dt em (Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to emphasise the words contained within the em element/dd dl strong (Strong Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to STRONGLY emphasise the words contained within the strong element/dd /dl However, in my case, I just felt that 100 223 578 does not define Customer Identification Number (CID). When I see Customer Identification Number (CID), I would expect to see the dd to be something like The unique identification number assigned to a every customer to ensure the system only accesses the appropriate users data. So am I wrong in my thinking about definitions lists?? Can a random bunch of digits such as 100 223 578 really be a definition that means Customer Identification Number?? If someone can qualify these questions, then I guess I will be convinced that this is the most semantic way to solve my problem. Regards, Nathan - Original Message - From: Ian Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But this definition list code I feel is not the most semantic way to solve the problem (not using the dl as it was intended). However, I also feel that what I have currently is also not perfect (and if it is, is em better than strong??). Hi Nathan, why don't you think a definition list is appropriate? Seems spot on, to me... Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description...Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words.[1] div id=customer-details h3Welcome Frankh3 dl dtCustomer Identification Number (CID):/dt dd100 223 578/dd dtLast accessed/dt ddFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/dd /dl /div There is a clear relationship between the label and the content, so in my opinion this content would suit either a definition list or a table. A table would be overkill here, but still theoretically appropriate because the number for CID would have no independent meaning without the associated label. I don't think there is any semantic or practical difference between em and strong, personally. I would be guided by how appropriate the traditional visual rendering of these is to the content. e.g. the name of a sea-going vessel is traditionally italicised, so I would use em in that case. (Not that it comes up a lot.) Hope this helps Cheers Ian PS - Hello all on WSG - this is my first post :). Looks like a great list. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 -- _ zStudio - Web development and accessibility http://zStudio.co.uk Snippetz.net - Online code library File, manage and re-use your code snippets links http://snippetz.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A hand with text wrapping around images in CSS?
John S. Britsios wrote:
I did that but it still doesn't work. See example here:
http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/testing.html
Try adding:
.content {overflow: hidden;}
...as you have a case of floats being forced down to line up with
elements in the right column. 'overflow: hidden' will _isolate_ the main
column so that won't happen, but test it well across browser-land to
avoid unwanted side-effects.
The fix is based on 'block formating context'[1] in CSS2.1, where
other stylings for the same effect are listed.
regards
Georg
[1]http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#q15
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
You could easily argue that a definition list IS fit for purpose. Take your example: h2JAWS (X)HTML interpretationsh2 dl dt em (Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to emphasise the words contained within the em element/dd dl strong (Strong Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to STRONGLY emphasise the words contained within the strong element/dd /dl This definition of the em and strong tags is not a generic definition. It is also not a complete definition of the tags. It is only valid in the context of the tile JAWS XHTML ... It could legitimately be argued that: h2Frank's Detailsh3 dl dtCustomer Identification Number (CID):/dt dd100 223 578/dd dtLast accessed/dt ddFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/dd /dl Is OK because 100 223 578 is a definition of CID when talking about Frank. If you would write CID=100 223 578 then I think it is ok to assume that there is a definition. Stephen On 6 Feb 2006, at 10:46, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Ian, Thanks for your reply! I just felt that a definition list was intended to define terms. For example: h2JAWS (X)HTML interpretationsh2 dl dt em (Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to emphasise the words contained within the em element/dd dl strong (Strong Emphasis) /dt ddJAWS will use pitch and tone to STRONGLY emphasise the words contained within the strong element/dd /dl However, in my case, I just felt that 100 223 578 does not define Customer Identification Number (CID). When I see Customer Identification Number (CID), I would expect to see the dd to be something like The unique identification number assigned to a every customer to ensure the system only accesses the appropriate users data. So am I wrong in my thinking about definitions lists?? Can a random bunch of digits such as 100 223 578 really be a definition that means Customer Identification Number?? If someone can qualify these questions, then I guess I will be convinced that this is the most semantic way to solve my problem. Regards, Nathan - Original Message - From: Ian Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But this definition list code I feel is not the most semantic way to solve the problem (not using the dl as it was intended). However, I also feel that what I have currently is also not perfect (and if it is, is em better than strong??). Hi Nathan, why don't you think a definition list is appropriate? Seems spot on, to me... Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description...Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words.[1] div id=customer-details h3Welcome Frankh3 dl dtCustomer Identification Number (CID):/dt dd100 223 578/dd dtLast accessed/dt ddFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/dd /dl /div There is a clear relationship between the label and the content, so in my opinion this content would suit either a definition list or a table. A table would be overkill here, but still theoretically appropriate because the number for CID would have no independent meaning without the associated label. I don't think there is any semantic or practical difference between em and strong, personally. I would be guided by how appropriate the traditional visual rendering of these is to the content. e.g. the name of a sea-going vessel is traditionally italicised, so I would use em in that case. (Not that it comes up a lot.) Hope this helps Cheers Ian PS - Hello all on WSG - this is my first post :). Looks like a great list. [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 -- _ zStudio - Web development and accessibility http://zStudio.co.uk Snippetz.net - Online code library File, manage and re-use your code snippets links http://snippetz.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help
Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, in my case, I just felt that 100 223 578 does not define Customer Identification Number (CID). ...So am I wrong in my thinking about definitions lists?? Can a random bunch of digits such as 100 223 578 really be a definition that means Customer Identification Number?? If someone can qualify these questions, then I guess I will be convinced that this is the most semantic way to solve my problem. Well, my understanding is that DL was not intended to be used solely as strictly as your interpretation suggests. Again, what the HTML 4.01 spec says is: Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description...Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. If you look at the latter example W3 give, this does not fit the strict interpretation of the DD being an *actual* definition of the term either. Many people use DL for marking up list items and labels, where again there is a semantic association but not a classical definition as such. I feel this is perfectly appropriate. Hope this helps Cheers Ian -- _ zStudio - Web development and accessibility http://zStudio.co.uk Snippetz.net - Online code library File, manage and re-use your code snippets links http://snippetz.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I think I will go down the dl path for now. I have a WSG meeting I will be attending this Friday (in Canberra). If there is room to raise it I will, to get some others peoples reaction and possible solutions they may have found. Thanks again, Nathan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi All,
I quickly scanned the archive but cannot find a discussion that exactly matches
what I am trying to achieve. I want to markup some text and want to know if I'm
doing it the most semantic (and accessible) way possible.
ok, here is an example of some text and what I am trying to achieve
presentationally:
customer-details-container
line1bigboldWelcome Frank/bold/big/line1
line2boldCustomer Identification Number (CID):/bold 100 223 578/line2
line3boldLast accessed:/bold Feb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/line3
/customer-details-container
There's your problem right there. Like many, you're going about this
all backwards. You've decided on the presentation and now you're trying
to determine semantics from that presentation, which is virtually
impossible.
So, let's take a look at the *content* and completely ignore how you
want it to look.
Welcome Frank
Customer Identification Number (CID): 100 223 578
Last accessed: Feb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm
The first line is the greeting. Is it semantically important to
emphasise it in any way? Could it be considered a heading?
The next two lines provide meta data about Frank's customer details, and
are name-value pairs. Is there any reason to semantically emphasise
either the name or the value?
Based on that (minimal) analysis, we can begin to think about the
markup. I'm going to assume the greeting isn't a heading (as that
requires seeing this in the context of the whole page) Since there is
no special markup available for a greeting, we'll have to use an
ordinary paragraph. There are 2 ways to markup name value pairs in
HTML. 1. A 2-column table. 2. A Defintion List (although many will
argue that this isn't the definition of a term, and thus is not
appropriate). I'll use the table.
pWelcome Frank/p
table
tbody
tr
th scope=rowCustomer Identification Number (CID):/th
td100 223 578/td
/tr
tr
th scope=rowLast accessed:/th
tdFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/td
/tr
/tbody
/table
While that is perfectly semantic, it doesn't really provide that much
abilities in the way of styling. There's nothing to distinguish those
paragraph and table elements from any others in the document. For that,
we can use the class attribute.
p class=greetingWelcome Frank/p
table class=customer-details
tbody
tr
th scope=rowCustomer Identification Number (CID):/th
td class=cid100 223 578/td
/tr
tr
th scope=rowLast accessed:/th
td class=date-timeFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/td
/tr
/tbody
/table
That class attributes on the td elements may not be necessary, but I
added them anyway, just in case it's important to distinguish each
individual type of field.
Now that we have that done, we can achieve the styling you requested
using a style sheet:
.greeting { font-weight: bold; font-size: larger; }
/* There's no reason tables need to be styled with display:table-*; */
.customer-details, .customer-details tr { display: block }
.customer-details th, .customer details td { display: inline; }
.customer-details th { text-align: left, font-weight: bold; }
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] A hand with text wrapping around images in CSS?
On Feb 6, 2006, at 1:30 AM, John S. Britsios wrote: I would like to ask here, if there is a possibility making my texts wrap around the bottom of my images here http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/test.html, without becoming rubbish when resizing the page. First of all ...start over! 1/ You are trying to float around background images. No can do! 2/ Too see your problem, do this: in your style sheet, place border: thin solid red; in each of your p.icon1, p.icon2, etc. 3/ Do as Lea de Groot said and use the IMG element in the HTML and float left. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
Hi Lachlan,
I think you are right, a table actually probably is the most semantic way to
go about this. I think it's easy to get turned away by all the markup needed
for a table. But my question was about having the most semantic solution,
not the most efficient to implement.
I guess I made the Welcome Frank a heading rather than a paragraph because
screen readers have a 'headings mode', which would allow them to easily jump
to their details if they wanted.
Thanks for the well explained reply!!!
Nathan
- Original Message -
From: Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi All,
I quickly scanned the archive but cannot find a discussion that exactly
matches what I am trying to achieve. I want to markup some text and want
to know if I'm doing it the most semantic (and accessible) way possible.
ok, here is an example of some text and what I am trying to achieve
presentationally:
customer-details-container
line1bigboldWelcome Frank/bold/big/line1
line2boldCustomer Identification Number (CID):/bold 100 223
578/line2
line3boldLast accessed:/bold Feb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/line3
/customer-details-container
There's your problem right there. Like many, you're going about this all
backwards. You've decided on the presentation and now you're trying to
determine semantics from that presentation, which is virtually impossible.
So, let's take a look at the *content* and completely ignore how you want
it to look.
Welcome Frank
Customer Identification Number (CID): 100 223 578
Last accessed: Feb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm
The first line is the greeting. Is it semantically important to emphasise
it in any way? Could it be considered a heading?
The next two lines provide meta data about Frank's customer details, and
are name-value pairs. Is there any reason to semantically emphasise
either the name or the value?
Based on that (minimal) analysis, we can begin to think about the markup.
I'm going to assume the greeting isn't a heading (as that requires seeing
this in the context of the whole page) Since there is no special markup
available for a greeting, we'll have to use an ordinary paragraph. There
are 2 ways to markup name value pairs in HTML. 1. A 2-column table. 2. A
Defintion List (although many will argue that this isn't the definition of
a term, and thus is not appropriate). I'll use the table.
pWelcome Frank/p
table
tbody
tr
th scope=rowCustomer Identification Number (CID):/th
td100 223 578/td
/tr
tr
th scope=rowLast accessed:/th
tdFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/td
/tr
/tbody
/table
While that is perfectly semantic, it doesn't really provide that much
abilities in the way of styling. There's nothing to distinguish those
paragraph and table elements from any others in the document. For that,
we can use the class attribute.
p class=greetingWelcome Frank/p
table class=customer-details
tbody
tr
th scope=rowCustomer Identification Number (CID):/th
td class=cid100 223 578/td
/tr
tr
th scope=rowLast accessed:/th
td class=date-timeFeb. 12, 2006 at 9:47pm/td
/tr
/tbody
/table
That class attributes on the td elements may not be necessary, but I added
them anyway, just in case it's important to distinguish each individual
type of field.
Now that we have that done, we can achieve the styling you requested using
a style sheet:
.greeting { font-weight: bold; font-size: larger; }
/* There's no reason tables need to be styled with display:table-*; */
.customer-details, .customer-details tr { display: block }
.customer-details th, .customer details td { display: inline; }
.customer-details th { text-align: left, font-weight: bold; }
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.
The problem is that many small/micro businesses don't see it (y)our way. They only see the shiny coat of paint, not the rust underneath it, or the engine under the bonnet. Bombarding them with technical jargon isn't going to help. They just see a web page in their browser. It either looks good or it doesn't. So you have to tell them - without using all the jargon - that you will build a site using the latest techniques, which will be simple to maintain, use less bandwidth and be easier to redesign in future than the site built by the next guy. Every prospect will have to be approached differently, and yes you're right basically none of them ask for standards/accessibility/etc. I'd also point out that I'd never say you should hire me because I do valid XHTML 1.0 Strict with separated style and content layers, using valid CSS and some unobtrusive DOM scripting to add a gracefully-degrading behaviour layer! (unless of course I was asked directly, which has happened). I am talking about the business case, not the exact way you go pitch that business case. # maintenance In my experience, standards-compliant sites are far easier (hence faster and cheaper) to maintain Only if the person maintaining it understands standards in the first place. It's no use to a FontPlague jockey who wants to maintain his/her own site. I don't think it's a given that a frontpage user gets no benefits. If they can add a new item using an h? and a p, rather than an entire nested table, then it's going to be easier no matter how you do it. small business really need to minimise costs. Every dollar counts. Yep, so they want to maintain the site themselves. See above. Ultimately if they're doing it themselves it's not your problem either way. If they are paying you to do it; then they can relax knowing that you're not wasting their money. # lower bandwidth Many small businesses have a very small web budget and very very low bandwidth on their hosting. Nearly all my customers are on a very cheap plan with (virtually) unlimited bandwidth, so perhaps the rest are paying too much. Depends what's cheap for the company in question, I guess. Of course, having 1MB of graphics or flash on the home page isn't going to help, but that's not a standards issue. I would say that optimising pages is actually part of a standards-based approach. I don't split hairs over which bit is technically a *standard* and which bit is just doing a good job. It's part of the package. If you do want to take a pure standards line, then yes ok it's outside scope. Sure, a flash-only or frames based site is not SEO friendly, but I have seen no clear evidence that a clean, Strict (x)html site gets any better treatment than a site with tag-soup. There are many other factors that influence SEO, but this is of course not the place to discuss those. I didn't say it has a massive advantage over tag soup, just that a benefit of standards is that it will have good search engine visibility. Besides, there is some anecdotal evidence (http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2006/01/the-roundabout-seo-test) that well formed documents have a slightly better time in search engines. So if we're being really technical, it's better. In any case, the client is hardly going to argue the toss between valid XHTML and tag soup. But you don't want them going for all-flash, all-graphics, etc. # accessibility Many are either unaware, don't care or are willing to take the chance. Besides, a standard compliant website is not necessarily more accessible than a site with tag-soup, although it may help. Didn't say it was a silver bullet, but again it's part of an overall approach. # usability Standards compliant does not necessarily equal usable, nor does tagsoup necessarily equal unusable. Which is what I meant when I said Not strictly a standard... :) True, but many of them don't plan that far ahead. They should; and if they don't and you've been hired then you should be helping them plan ahead. There are plenty of other businesses out there that take on the relevant forward planning aspects of a job since the client doesn't know they have to. If an electrician wires up your house without getting you to put in some extra loops to add more power points later on, they're not doing their job right. If a mechanic puts crap tyres on your car, knowing they'd wear out in two months, they're not doing their job right. Small businesses often have to prove that everything they do is better than the big businesses... so their website needs to reflect that. Define better, from the (non web design) small business owner's point of view. I think that's what this whole thread is about... Faster to update, cheaper to run, lasts longer, more flexible. On a more general level I was talking about that less tangible better job, better value vibe that you get when you're dealing with a real master of a trade. You know it when you see it.
Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.
I am coming to realize that there is little real business case for small business. Total cost of operation of a website for a small business might be marginal. My reasoning for this thread was to formulate a position statement that could be communicated to small business leaders to have them carry the message that web standards will mean x and y to all business owners and that we would then see demand follow. I was not hoping to find out ways to convince Joe or Jane business owner to buy my services based on standards in our sales cycle. I am looking longer view and want to find ways to show the business community that they have no choice but to have standards. Everyone in this thread seems to gravitate to the, but its better argument. Don't get me wrong I am a strong supporter of web standards and love learning more and more about how to become better at coding pages in such a fashion but we all seem to miss that a website is not and end in itself but a means to an end and that the risk for the small business owner if they buy a site with sloppy code and non-semantic markup is negligible. If they have bad copy or they don't communicate their message that is deadly. HTML and its ilk is merely a vehicle for communication and not communication and sometimes even when the transmission is messy the message is communicated. Websites for small business are an extension of their marketing strategy and a way to help achieve their goals. If we can't come up with a strong business case for the 80% of business that has less than 20 employees (Canadian Stats). We are failing them. They deserve to get great, well made websites they just need to know why and what it is worth. As I said at the outset of this thread, I want a way to create wide demand for the use of standards as opposed to converting individuals and creating apostles to the standards movement. I want to create such a compelling argument that business can't ignore it and that some thought leaders will take that message and start spreading it like a virus so that it can geometrically extends into the small towns and little neighborhood shops and then we no longer need even attempt to push it to clients (which we shouldn't do anyway ) and have them demand it, I want a standards based website -- can you deliver? This will do two things, one make all those developers who have been sitting on the fence about moving to standards pick a side and two all the larger firms that reject or ignore standards will either have to adapt or go home. Lets all put our thinking caps on, talk to our clients and talk to the community and find out how we can make small business want standards, and demand standards! All the best, Jay ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A hand with text wrapping around images in CSS?
I think the problem is fixed: http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/
Do you something wrong there? If not, everything is fine.
Thanks a lot for your help.
John
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
John S. Britsios wrote:
I did that but it still doesn't work. See example here:
http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/testing.html
Try adding:
.content {overflow: hidden;}
...as you have a case of floats being forced down to line up with
elements in the right column. 'overflow: hidden' will _isolate_ the main
column so that won't happen, but test it well across browser-land to
avoid unwanted side-effects.
The fix is based on 'block formating context'[1] in CSS2.1, where
other stylings for the same effect are listed.
regards
Georg
[1]http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#q15
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Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.
I want a standards based website -- can you deliver? This premise is wrong. When I'm buying a house I also do not explicitly state that I want it to be built with standards, however I anticipate it's not going to fall on my head soon. It's the professional side of all the suppliers. If you want to target the educational influence, do it there. Clients shouldn't care - they have own businesses to look after. -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Web page translations
Hello list, I am doing my first 'translated Web pages' in French, Spanish and Portuguese. Aside from the translated content, which I have, what else should I be doing? Do I need different doc types for each? Any tips would be appreciated. I have no control over hosting. I believe, FWIW, these pages will live on the same server as the US English version. TIA! -- Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web page translations
Nope, just use UTF-8 and the only thing you need to customize is the Content-Language header and xml:lang attribute and you're done. -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web page translations
On 2/6/06 11:08 AM, Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nope, just use UTF-8 and the only thing you need to customize is the Content-Language header and xml:lang attribute and you're done. Sorry, just wanna get it right... Here's what I have on my page: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 / What do I need to change? Thanks again. -- Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web page translations
What do I need to change? In your case - nothing. You're already done. In my case, when I use ... ?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8? !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd; html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=cs head meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 / meta http-equiv=Content-Language content=cs / ... I need to change the xml:lang and the last meta (both cs) to the appropriate content (eg. de when converting to German). -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Most semantic XHTML markup possible - your thoughts
I just felt that a definition list was intended to define terms. So am I wrong in my thinking about definitions lists? Partly. The scope of their usage is pretty much wide. For me the sign of the possibility to use them is equivalency. Not only an explanation, even any equivalent relation in any context. -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web page translations
On 2/6/06 11:58 AM, Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do I need to change? In your case - nothing. You're already done. Now this is the kind of answer I love getting, but I think this is the first time I've ever gotten it! Thanks Jan! -- Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Call for a new (scalable) business case for web standards.
Jan Brasna wrote: I want a standards based website -- can you deliver? This premise is wrong. When I'm buying a house I also do not explicitly state that I want it to be built with standards, however I anticipate it's not going to fall on my head soon. I don't agree with this analogy. Standards that govern the construction of homes and buildings in most western nations are set by regulating arms of the government and are there for the mortal protection of person and property. It is not a business case it is a matter of safety and liability. So you don't die and so governments aren't allowing unsafe buildings to be built under their watch. And BTW if you assume all the work done in your home meets standards I would strongly advise getting a home inspector in. Standards change and people who don't know what they are doing can ruin anything that was built on standards -- just like on the web. Web standards are a set of principles based around the recommendations of various authorities and experts for the purpose of excellence and professionalism -- they have no real danger if ignored. Web standards are more like ISO9000 management certification, companies that have this certification adhere to guidelines based on management structure and coordination but if a company lets their ISO status slide because they stop filing management reports is doing harm only to themselves in that their operation may become disorganized or tatty. A few customers will choose to not work with them as a result of the status change but if the product is the same when it changes hands and the support is intact etc. the end user really doesn't care that certification exists or not. No one will die or be harmed as a result of tag soup or demi-infinite nested tables. The website may be built on a rubble foundation but there are no regulatory bodies to make sure that they won't collapse (pardon the CSS pun). It's the professional side of all the suppliers. If you want to target the educational influence, do it there. Clients shouldn't care - they have own businesses to look after. I do agree, and that is my main point, but those influencers, first movers and thought leaders are business people and there needs to be some compelling reason for them to adopt and then evangelize web standards. My ongoing struggle is that we (web standards oriented developers) have made, what I think is, a case for larger enterprise in cost, maintenance, bandwidth etc. I want to develop a consistent, concise, and compelling case for these leaders to grab onto web standards. What I have come to realise is that groups like WaSP and WSG need to get together and put forth a path to conversion for business to integrate web standards into their operations. We have not focus so much attention on criticizing those who won't move forward and make them obsolete by making web standards THE standard that business demands of developers. There will always be those who want to focus on publish-day price only and maybe they get what they pay for but not what they deserve. The WSG and WaSP should make an effort to be more in touch with business beyond trying to make IE a halfway decent browser but in creating respect, understanding and desire for a better, more functional, more agile web. As always, all the best, Jay ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Multiple language usability query
Hi all I am new to multiple language sites. However, I have a client who has a small amount of text on one page of his site referring Japanese speaking users to a different (Japanese) site. Firefox and Safari on the Mac seem to have a default which allows the Japanese to be read. However, I noticed that good ol' Windows IE6 doesn't automatically render other languages and that its preferences needed to be changed etc. My question is this: Since most web users are using IE, and I imagine most IE browsers do not have multilingual capabilities enabled, then they would see gobbledegook. So... How do we overcome this in terms of usability? Is there a standard? Should I include (in English) a title and/or link above the Japanese text explaining how to render the text below, or explain, at the very least, that the strange characters below are in fact in another language? Thanks in advance Sarah -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Multiple language usability query
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: Firefox and Safari on the Mac seem to have a default which allows the Japanese to be read. However, I noticed that good ol' Windows IE6 doesn't automatically render other languages and that its preferences needed to be changed etc. It's probably a font related issue. IIRC, if none of the fonts specified in the font-family property contain the glyphs for those characters, IE won't find and display them. You may be able to improve the situation by including the following: font-family: Arial Unicode MS, Lucida Sans Unicode, sans-serif; Here's an article I found that discusses this issue. http://girtby.net/archives/2005/10/07/internet-explorer-makes-me/ -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Multiple language usability query
On 7 Feb 2006, at 7:02 am, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: I am new to multiple language sites. However, I have a client who has a small amount of text on one page of his site referring Japanese speaking users to a different (Japanese) site. Firefox and Safari on the Mac seem to have a default which allows the Japanese to be read. However, I noticed that good ol' Windows IE6 doesn't automatically render other languages and that its preferences needed to be changed etc. Japanese (and other East-Asian) language support is installed by default on OS X. Not so on Windows side of things (it comes with the install discs as an extra package). I've been told that Firefox/Win tries to display the text nevertheless. Lachlan wrote It's probably a font related issue. IIRC, if none of the fonts specified in the font-family property contain the glyphs for those characters, IE won't find and display them. You may be able to improve the situation by including the following: font-family: Arial Unicode MS, Lucida Sans Unicode, sans-serif; Hmm, not sure (but I can't test those things, I don't have access to a PC without East-Asian language support...:-)). A little test file http://dev.l-c-n.com/_temp/j-test.php Includes a screenshot. I've used a whole collection for the font- family (first some Japanese font-families, then some fall back stuff as mentioned). Let me know how it looks like (for the curious, it is my name). Sarah again My question is this: Since most web users are using IE, and I imagine most IE browsers do not have multilingual capabilities enabled, then they would see gobbledegook. So... How do we overcome this in terms of usability? Is there a standard? Should I include (in English) a title and/or link above the Japanese text explaining how to render the text below, or explain, at the very least, that the strange characters below are in fact in another language? What about including the text both in Japanese and English ? Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
A big reason for not using toggles for FAQs we found was the inability to use the browsers find (Find in this page) feature. Often the reason for using toggles is that the page's content is quite large. Users would normally us their browsers find feature to jump to a keyword they are looking for. If that search result is in a hidden element the browser will not show it - making the page less usable. Also it is helpful to use anchors on each Q A (esp. if you have Customer Service Reps directing users to the page). To make the page more useful, you could allow for bookmarks and emailed URLs to expand an answer by checking the URL 'hash' for the related question. -- Rowan Walker RMW Web Publishing http://www.rmwpublishing.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
I'd have to challenge the statement about users normally using the browsers find feature. The majority of users that I have (or had rather) to accommodate for, didn't even know that their browser had a find feature. Instead preferring to use scroll and skim behaviours to locate information. Not wanting to debunk what you were saying, of course, but I think it would be less than complete to band everyone into the group that actually know that Ctl+F finds things within a page. The most recent iteration of FAQ's that we implemented had toggles delivered via css / div. but that said, we also included a find / search field to help expose what was hidden. Additionally we used a well versed information architect to review our headings and ensure we were using appropriate terminology to head up each FAQ. Feedback on that implementation was generally positive. That said the target user group was internal, and 40+ female administrative / data worker from a mainframe background and NOT the general public. I have not located detailed ebehavior reports addressing the find option within the more global public. Does anyone have this data? Ben Winter-Giles Interface Design Manager DEWR.gov.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of R Walker (RMW Web Publishing) Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2006 12:25 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up] A big reason for not using toggles for FAQs we found was the inability to use the browsers find (Find in this page) feature. Often the reason for using toggles is that the page's content is quite large. Users would normally us their browsers find feature to jump to a keyword they are looking for. If that search result is in a hidden element the browser will not show it - making the page less usable. Also it is helpful to use anchors on each Q A (esp. if you have Customer Service Reps directing users to the page). To make the page more useful, you could allow for bookmarks and emailed URLs to expand an answer by checking the URL 'hash' for the related question. -- Rowan Walker RMW Web Publishing http://www.rmwpublishing.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message and any attached files may be confidential information, and may also be the subject of legal professional privilege. If you are not the intended recipient any use, disclosure or copying of this e-mail is unauthorised. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Just because a large subset of your users don't use a particular function on your web browser is not a good justification to disable its use. If a larger number of your users are skimming the headlines then clicking to find more details about a particular entry then post a series of anchor links at the top of the page that jump down to the required content. This is a: a fairly standard way of doing FAQs on the web and b: doesn't stop various browser features from working. WINTER-GILES,Ben wrote: I'd have to challenge the statement about users normally using the browsers find feature. The majority of users that I have (or had rather) to accommodate for, didn't even know that their browser had a find feature. Instead preferring to use scroll and skim behaviours to locate information. Not wanting to debunk what you were saying, of course, but I think it would be less than complete to band everyone into the group that actually know that Ctl+F finds things within a page. The most recent iteration of FAQ's that we implemented had toggles delivered via css / div. but that said, we also included a find / search field to help expose what was hidden. Additionally we used a well versed information architect to review our headings and ensure we were using appropriate terminology to head up each FAQ. Feedback on that implementation was generally positive. That said the target user group was internal, and 40+ female administrative / data worker from a mainframe background and NOT the general public. I have not located detailed ebehavior reports addressing the find option within the more global public. Does anyone have this data? Ben Winter-Giles Interface Design Manager DEWR.gov.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of R Walker (RMW Web Publishing) Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2006 12:25 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up] A big reason for not using toggles for FAQs we found was the inability to use the browsers find (Find in this page) feature. Often the reason for using toggles is that the page's content is quite large. Users would normally us their browsers find feature to jump to a keyword they are looking for. If that search result is in a hidden element the browser will not show it - making the page less usable. Also it is helpful to use anchors on each Q A (esp. if you have Customer Service Reps directing users to the page). To make the page more useful, you could allow for bookmarks and emailed URLs to expand an answer by checking the URL 'hash' for the related question. -- Rowan Walker RMW Web Publishing http://www.rmwpublishing.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message and any attached files may be confidential information, and may also be the subject of legal professional privilege. If you are not the intended recipient any use, disclosure or copying of this e-mail is unauthorised. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DIV Target
Thanks for your help everyone... I guess what I am trying to do is replicate the whole iframes thing using div tags - where I have various content load within a certain section of my page an, if I'm making any sense. (I'm also trying to convince a friend to do table-less designs, and that is one point I need to show him... but wasn't sure how to do it). If that doesn't make much sense I apologize.. my head is all over the place right now which is not a good thing. Thanks again. - Original Message - From: Christian Montoya To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] DIV Target No, Kerry wanted something _javascript_ related, like what Samuel mentioned.There are a couple options. One is you could load content that'shidden, but is still on the page. The other is getting content fromthe server when it's requested. The second is harder than the first.What exactly are you trying to do? A more specific idea will helplisters point you to an exact solution.Christian Montoyachristianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
True. But I wasn't talking about disabling any features at all. And if the toggles are done correctly I understand that the find functions will still behave correctly, because the headings will have appropriate key words in them anyway. Presuming of course you have them written descriptively. One could also argue (for the sake of it) that if your toggled page extends so far as to warrant a large anchor listing at the top of the page, perhaps the information segmentation is not quite up to scratch either. To me, the core of this discussion revolves around there not being one way to skin the cat here. (apologies to any cat owners) Which simply reinforces the case for web standards that are constructed in a modular fashion to facilitate delivery of information in varied formats to accommodate for the intended user groups. benwg -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Samuel Richardson Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2006 12:53 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up] Just because a large subset of your users don't use a particular function on your web browser is not a good justification to disable its use. If a larger number of your users are skimming the headlines then clicking to find more details about a particular entry then post a series of anchor links at the top of the page that jump down to the required content. This is a: a fairly standard way of doing FAQs on the web and b: doesn't stop various browser features from working. WINTER-GILES,Ben wrote: I'd have to challenge the statement about users normally using the browsers find feature. The majority of users that I have (or had rather) to accommodate for, didn't even know that their browser had a find feature. Instead preferring to use scroll and skim behaviours to locate information. Not wanting to debunk what you were saying, of course, but I think it would be less than complete to band everyone into the group that actually know that Ctl+F finds things within a page. The most recent iteration of FAQ's that we implemented had toggles delivered via css / div. but that said, we also included a find / search field to help expose what was hidden. Additionally we used a well versed information architect to review our headings and ensure we were using appropriate terminology to head up each FAQ. Feedback on that implementation was generally positive. That said the target user group was internal, and 40+ female administrative / data worker from a mainframe background and NOT the general public. I have not located detailed ebehavior reports addressing the find option within the more global public. Does anyone have this data? Ben Winter-Giles Interface Design Manager DEWR.gov.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of R Walker (RMW Web Publishing) Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2006 12:25 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up] A big reason for not using toggles for FAQs we found was the inability to use the browsers find (Find in this page) feature. Often the reason for using toggles is that the page's content is quite large. Users would normally us their browsers find feature to jump to a keyword they are looking for. If that search result is in a hidden element the browser will not show it - making the page less usable. Also it is helpful to use anchors on each Q A (esp. if you have Customer Service Reps directing users to the page). To make the page more useful, you could allow for bookmarks and emailed URLs to expand an answer by checking the URL 'hash' for the related question. -- Rowan Walker RMW Web Publishing http://www.rmwpublishing.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message and any attached files may be confidential information, and may also be the subject of legal professional privilege. If you are not the intended recipient any use, disclosure or copying of this e-mail is unauthorised. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help
Re: [WSG] DIV Target
It sounds like you want an iframe (like a browser window) embedded in the page that then has its location controlled by external links/buttons/whatever. In that case a href=iframecontentpage.htm target=iframeLink/a Where target is the id attribute of the iframe that you created earlier in the page and href is the page you want it to load. Samuel blqberi wrote: Thanks for your help everyone... I guess what I am trying to do is replicate the whole iframes thing using div tags - where I have various content load within a certain section of my page an, if I'm making any sense. (I'm also trying to convince a friend to do table-less designs, and that is one point I need to show him... but wasn't sure how to do it). If that doesn't make much sense I apologize.. my head is all over the place right now which is not a good thing. Thanks again. - Original Message - *From:* Christian Montoya mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Sent:* Sunday, February 05, 2006 6:55 PM *Subject:* Re: [WSG] DIV Target No, Kerry wanted something Javascript related, like what Samuel mentioned. There are a couple options. One is you could load content that's hidden, but is still on the page. The other is getting content from the server when it's requested. The second is harder than the first. What exactly are you trying to do? A more specific idea will help listers point you to an exact solution. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
Replies in body, And if the toggles are done correctly I understand that the find functions will still behave correctly, because the headings will have appropriate key words in them anyway. Presuming of course you have them written descriptively. Your effectively disabling it because it is either going to highlight the hidden content inside the div (where you won't be able to see it) or ignore that completely, either way you can't effectively search on the content that is hidden, only the headers. One could also argue (for the sake of it) that if your toggled page extends so far as to warrant a large anchor listing at the top of the page, perhaps the information segmentation is not quite up to scratch either. To me, the core of this discussion revolves around there not being one way to skin the cat here. (apologies to any cat owners) Which simply reinforces the case for web standards that are constructed in a modular fashion to facilitate delivery of information in varied formats to accommodate for the intended user groups. Zah? I thought this was about showing/hiding content within divs. Not matter how well written your content/headings whatever, you shouldn't disable parts of the browser interface. I've read that sentence above about three times and I can't understand it. Samuel ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DIV Target
I'll just add a bit more to this: If you want to load entire web pages embedded into the current page you will have to use the iframe, if just want to change simple text/html within a div then you will have to use the innerhtml property (or use this method that came up on delicious this morning: http://slayeroffice.com/articles/innerHTML_alternatives/) Samuel Richardson wrote: It sounds like you want an iframe (like a browser window) embedded in the page that then has its location controlled by external links/buttons/whatever. In that case a href=iframecontentpage.htm target=iframeLink/a Where target is the id attribute of the iframe that you created earlier in the page and href is the page you want it to load. Samuel blqberi wrote: Thanks for your help everyone... I guess what I am trying to do is replicate the whole iframes thing using div tags - where I have various content load within a certain section of my page an, if I'm making any sense. (I'm also trying to convince a friend to do table-less designs, and that is one point I need to show him... but wasn't sure how to do it). If that doesn't make much sense I apologize.. my head is all over the place right now which is not a good thing. Thanks again. - Original Message - *From:* Christian Montoya mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Sent:* Sunday, February 05, 2006 6:55 PM *Subject:* Re: [WSG] DIV Target No, Kerry wanted something Javascript related, like what Samuel mentioned. There are a couple options. One is you could load content that's hidden, but is still on the page. The other is getting content from the server when it's requested. The second is harder than the first. What exactly are you trying to do? A more specific idea will help listers point you to an exact solution. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
From: Samuel Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Zah? I thought this was about showing/hiding content within divs. Not matter how well written your content/headings whatever, you shouldn't disable parts of the browser interface. I've read that sentence above about three times and I can't understand it. For the few people who might take offense at this kind of interactivity (likely web developers who are passionate about usability), it might not be an issue worth agonizing over. It's accessible to both the blind and to keyboard users. It's one of those judgement calls best left to the client and not to a committee of standards experts :-) -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Multiple language usability query
Hi Philippe, Japanese (and other East-Asian) language support is installed by default on OS X. Not so on Windows side of things (it comes with the install discs as an extra package). I've been told that Firefox/Win tries to display the text nevertheless. Just as I thought. A little test file http://dev.l-c-n.com/_temp/j-test.php Thanks for the link - BTW I love your quote: Ce qui n'est pas invisble, n'a pas d'importance What about including the text both in Japanese and English ? Great, simple solution - should do the trick. Sarah :) -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] DIV Target
cool... thank you Samuel. Will check it out. - Original Message - From: Samuel Richardson To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] DIV Target I'll just add a bit more to this:If you want to load entire web pages embedded into the current page you will have to use the iframe, if just want to change simple text/html within a div then you will have to use the innerhtml property (or use this method that came up on delicious this morning: http://slayeroffice.com/articles/innerHTML_alternatives/)Samuel Richardson wrote: It sounds like you want an iframe (like a browser window) embedded in the page that then has its location controlled by external links/buttons/whatever. In that case a href="" target="iframe"Link/a Where target is the id attribute of the iframe that you created earlier in the page and href is the page you want it to load. Samuel blqberi wrote: Thanks for your help everyone... I guess what I am trying to do is replicate the whole iframes thing using div tags - where I have various content load within a certain section of my page an, if I'm making any sense. (I'm also trying to convince a friend to do table-less designs, and that is one point I need to show him... but wasn't sure how to do it). If that doesn't make much sense I apologize.. my head is all over the place right now which is not a good thing. Thanks again. - Original Message - *From:* Christian Montoya mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Sent:* Sunday, February 05, 2006 6:55 PM *Subject:* Re: [WSG] DIV Target No, Kerry wanted something _javascript_ related, like what Samuel mentioned. There are a couple options. One is you could load content that's hidden, but is still on the page. The other is getting content from the server when it's requested. The second is harder than the first. What exactly are you trying to do? A more specific idea will help listers point you to an exact solution. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] Separate mobile content considered harmful?
Hi Josh, There's a public list you can join for the Mobile Web Initiative (MWI) which isn't high in traffic and provides really good, friendly, interesting discussion. Details for the MWI, the mail list and other info: http://www.w3.org/Mobile/ Also, there's a 'Last Call Working Draft' of the mobile web best practices document, which is still open for discussion http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-mobile-bp-20060113/ , but only for a few more days, until Feb 17. You can send to the list here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hope that helps... Lisa -Original Message- From: Joshua Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi all, This was big news a year or two ago now, but I just realised that, perhaps, a separate domain space for mobile content isn't particularly evil afterall. Tim Berners-Lee weighed in on this in May 2004 [1], and I do agree with everything outlined in that document -- but there is more. We're looking at mobile content for the Sunrise Family site, along similar lines to that on the Y!7 Sunrise WAP site [2]. 1. http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/TLD 2. http://wap.yahoo.com.au/sunrise/ -- note the evil subdomain ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
R Walker (RMW Web Publishing) wrote: A big reason for not using toggles for FAQs we found was the inability to use the browsers find (Find in this page) feature. Often the reason for using toggles is that the page's content is quite large. Users would normally us their browsers find feature to jump to a keyword they are looking for. If that search result is in a hidden element the browser will not show it - making the page less usable. You should revisit that page. http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/toggle_elements.asp I'm not disabling any browser feature, there is an Open All link to let the user expand all the DDs before using Ctrl + F Also it is helpful to use anchors on each Q A (esp. if you have Customer Service Reps directing users to the page). To make the page more useful, you could allow for bookmarks and emailed URLs to expand an answer by checking the URL 'hash' for the related question. I don't see any problem here either. A short script could check past #, find the matching named anchor in the document and expand the next node... Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
It truly is frustrating when FAQ pages hide everything with invisible DIVs. As already mentioned it makes Ctrl-F useless (which I personally find very annoying), and it also makes me click a whole bunch of useless + symbols if I want to read more than one question on the page. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
A short script could check past # ... as eg. Moo.FX does - http://moofx.mad4milk.net/#introduction So it's pretty easy to add. -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]
On 2/7/06, Justin Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It truly is frustrating when FAQ pages hide everything with invisible DIVs. As already mentioned it makes Ctrl-F useless (which I personally find very annoying), and it also makes me click a whole bunch of useless + symbols if I want to read more than one question on the page. Did you see Thierry's reply? There's an open all link, which anyone who has even a slight knowledge of unobtrusive JS could have added themselves. Thierry is just providing a tool, and it is up to the end designer to decide how to use it. Don't put all the flame on Thierry for going through a lot of trouble for making what might be the best show/hide page ever. If you know what works best, you too can take Thierry's solution and serve up an FAQ page that might be just slightly better than a laundry list of qa's AND not go against your preferences. Anyway, thanks Thierry for putting all this together, I know sometimes clients want this functionality and this is something I might use in the future. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
