Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?
Its probably been designed to Web standards so it won't recognise things like microformats which subvert CSS classes for its own purposes. On Thu, June 7, 2007 6:15 am, Lucien Stals wrote: Groupwise is a Novel client (and server) for email and appointments etc. Think MS Outlook, by Novel. It's the proprietary email client and address book and calendar app we are obliged to use at work. It even comes with it's own chat client that doesn't talk to any other chat protocols. Being a closed source app, I'm having trouble looking for how to get it to read microformat data, but perhaps I'm looking at the problem the wrong way around. I will, as you suggest, look at getting operator to push the data into groupwise :) It would be a shame if I can't get it to work after having gone to the trouble of adding microformat event and vCard data to our departmental calendar and staff contact pages, respectively. Lucien. -- Lucien Stals Multimedia/Web Developer Academic Development and Support Swinburne University of Technology PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] telephone: +61 3 9214 4474 office: AD223 On 7/06/2007 at 2:57 pm, Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe I used a poor example. Microformats would certainly be my first choice for this. I just wish there was *more* software that could use it. And a plugin to add microformat data into a groupwise client. That would be nice :) I have no idea what groupwise is but could a user script could be created for the Operator Firefox plugin to add the data? The latest version of it allows you to add your own scripts (javascript) to do things with the data it finds. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4106 There is also some talk about including future native support for microformats in Firefox 3 http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/mozilla_does_microformats_firefox3.php http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/02/04/microformats-part-4-the-user-interface- of-microformat-detection Microsoft's Live Clipboard also uses microformats http://rayozzie.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!FB3017FBB9B2E142!285.entry *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Stuart Foulstone. http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk BigEasy Web Design 69 Flockton Court Rockingham Street Sheffield S1 4EB Tel. 07751 413451 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for this list. If so then please point me elsewhere. We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately 140 pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site visitor: 1) Club members (approx 5000) 2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues, wedding venues, dining, conference facilities etc. The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used to update the site several times a day with news of results, events, etc, etc. Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered in an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be degraded to an acceptable single column layout. I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any representation from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for feedback and recommendations from others. Many thanks, -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
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I return to the office on 13 June 2007. If you need urgent assistance please contact Ben Galdys, 62761975 or Thip Xaysavanh, 6276 1677. Otherwise I will contact you when I return. * The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments to it, is intended for the use of the addressee and is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, read, forward, copy or retain any of the information. If you received this e-mail in error, please delete it and notify the sender by return e-mail or telephone. The Commonwealth does not warrant that any attachments are free from viruses or any other defects. You assume all liability for any loss, damage or other consequences which may arise from opening or using the attachments. The security of emails transmitted in an unencrypted environment cannot be guaranteed. By forwarding or replying to this email, you acknowledge and accept these risks. * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
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Returning 11/06/07 Please direct urgent internal requests to IT Help desk. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down Menu Example
Thierry Koblentz schreef: plug src=http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/Pure_CSS_Dropdown_Menus.asp; / It doesn't seem to work well with keyboard navigation, at least in Opera 9 and Firefox 2. Please try again, I just noticed that I commented a return false statement in the script. The problem now is that I can't remember if I just forgot to remove it or if there was a good reason for that comment to be there :-( Still the same. In the vertical menu only the 3rd item (Articles: E-K) pops up/unfolds when navigating with a keyboard on Fx2 and Op9 (on WindowsXP). cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] layout/font site test - please
On 2007/06/04 10:06 (GMT-0700) Paul Novitski apparently typed: Felix Miata wrote: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/Sites/ksc/ On 2007/06/04 01:41 (GMT-0700) Paul Novitski apparently typed: In Firefox 2, when the window width becomes too narrow and/or the text size becomes too large to allow the headline The Dancer's Product Resource to fit on one line, the headline wraps around with such a high line-length that the new line overlaps the content below the header. Sorry, I don't see the problem. Why not simply allow the header block to naturally expand vertically when the headline wraps? I've replaced line-height with padding to vertically center H1, so the problem of expanding outside of #header on when wrap occurs is gone. -- Respect everyone. I Peter 2:17 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down Menu Example
On Behalf Of Sander Aarts Thierry Koblentz schreef: Please try again, I just noticed that I commented a return false statement in the script. The problem now is that I can't remember if I just forgot to remove it or if there was a good reason for that comment to be there :-( Still the same. In the vertical menu only the 3rd item (Articles: E-K) pops up/unfolds when navigating with a keyboard on Fx2 and Op9 (on WindowsXP). Sander, You need to use the *enter* key to trigger the dropdown, did you try that? And did you clear your cache? Because I didn't check in Opera, but it is working fine for me in FF2 As a side note, the sub menu relevant to each current page is not skipable to assure that these links are accessible to keyboard users with JS off. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Keeping state of behaviors
I put this together, but I'm not sure it could be useful for anything... May be it could be used with Ajax stuff, when the back button is a concern. http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/keeping_state/keeping_track.html --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down Menu Example
Thierry Koblentz schreef: Still the same. In the vertical menu only the 3rd item (Articles: E-K) pops up/unfolds when navigating with a keyboard on Fx2 and Op9 (on WindowsXP). Sander, You need to use the *enter* key to trigger the dropdown, did you try that? Ah, had not read that. Sorry ;-) But what's the reason for that as it is not really clear? Why not have them popup like when you use a pointer? As a side note, the sub menu relevant to each current page is not skipable to assure that these links are accessible to keyboard users with JS off. I'm not sure I see which main menu item represents the current page. The 3rd perhaps, cause that's the one that acts different. cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down Menu Example
On Behalf Of Sander Aarts Ah, had not read that. Sorry ;-) But what's the reason for that as it is not really clear? Why not have them popup like when you use a pointer? Do you mean by using focus? But then keyboard users would have to tab through the whole enchilada :-( That's how the other menu works (the orizontal one), but it's painful to navigate with the keyboard. I did it that way so people can see/understand the difference of behavior when it comes to tabbing navigation. As a side note, the sub menu relevant to each current page is not skipable to assure that these links are accessible to keyboard users with JS off. I'm not sure I see which main menu item represents the current page. The 3rd perhaps, cause that's the one that acts different. Each page has its own default sub-menu. It matches the nested UL that corresponds to the top level item selected (thus it changes from page to page). --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Handheld users CAN view PDF. XDA's PDA's Blackberry Symbian etc etc... PDF can be made accessible just look at the features of Acrobats latest inception in CS3 Suite. Thanks, Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: 07 June 2007 23:00 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues There was some discussion recently about how hard it is to create accessible PDFs (ie very hard) but I would've thought the obvious reason not to do it is that not everyone has a PDF reader installed so why potentially cut off some of your content from certain users? If it's in HTML at least everyone's going to be able to see it. Also, are handheld users able to view PDFs? I would've thought not. On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:04:01 +1000, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for this list. If so then please point me elsewhere. We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately 140 pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site visitor: 1) Club members (approx 5000) 2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues, wedding venues, dining, conference facilities etc. The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used to update the site several times a day with news of results, events, etc, etc. Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered in an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be degraded to an acceptable single column layout. I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any representation from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for feedback and recommendations from others. Many thanks, -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Nick Roper wrote: Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. Nick, you've made it fairly clear that your question is about accessiblity in PDFs, rather than whether or not it's a good idea to use them - but I'm afraid the most common answer you're likely to get is going to be: don't rely on them exclusively. The web is for HTML; the ability to deliver other file types is possible, but not the best option if accessiblity is desired. As printable alternatives, sure, I guess (but what's wrong with a good print style sheet?) - but I'm thinking of a number of Aust Govt sites which insist on delivering critical info as PDFs and even Word docs, which I find astonishingly short-sighted, as well as probably an abuse of accessiblity guidelines, if not legislation. What if I don't have Word installed (and why should I?)? The site may certainly need an IA overhaul, if it's been mangled over time by too many cooks - but that's no reason to stop using HTML in favour of PDF, surely. I think the site owners should have it pointed out to them that the agency's recommendations are simply out of touch with what's needed. HTH (a bit) N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Mark Hedley wrote: Handheld users CAN view PDF. Rather a sweeping statement -- my SideKick II certainly can't. Though I can't imagine that I'd want it to -- it's bad enough that so many HTML sites don't linearize well to a small screen. A fixed format like PDF would be really painful to deal with... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
I didn't make an extensive list but yes, some devices don't / won't do PDF. Newer handheld smartphones hitting the consumer market are not geared more towards improving these issues. Cheers, Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder Sent: 07 June 2007 23:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues Mark Hedley wrote: Handheld users CAN view PDF. Rather a sweeping statement -- my SideKick II certainly can't. Though I can't imagine that I'd want it to -- it's bad enough that so many HTML sites don't linearize well to a small screen. A fixed format like PDF would be really painful to deal with... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
[ED] I did of course mean they are now more geared towards improving these issues [/ED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Hedley Sent: 07 June 2007 23:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues I didn't make an extensive list but yes, some devices don't / won't do PDF. Newer handheld smartphones hitting the consumer market are not geared more towards improving these issues. Cheers, Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder Sent: 07 June 2007 23:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues Mark Hedley wrote: Handheld users CAN view PDF. Rather a sweeping statement -- my SideKick II certainly can't. Though I can't imagine that I'd want it to -- it's bad enough that so many HTML sites don't linearize well to a small screen. A fixed format like PDF would be really painful to deal with... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be significant. Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here. Brad Pollard http://www.fatpublisher.com.au - Original Message - From: John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues There was some discussion recently about how hard it is to create accessible PDFs (ie very hard) but I would've thought the obvious reason not to do it is that not everyone has a PDF reader installed so why potentially cut off some of your content from certain users? If it's in HTML at least everyone's going to be able to see it. Also, are handheld users able to view PDFs? I would've thought not. On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:04:01 +1000, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for this list. If so then please point me elsewhere. We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately 140 pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site visitor: 1) Club members (approx 5000) 2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues, wedding venues, dining, conference facilities etc. The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used to update the site several times a day with news of results, events, etc, etc. Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered in an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be degraded to an acceptable single column layout. I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any representation from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for feedback and recommendations from others. Many thanks, -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Do both... keep HTML for all the reasons already been raised (plus more) but maybe do a few pdfs as well which can be used as either print outs etc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/06/2007 6:00:00 am There was some discussion recently about how hard it is to create accessible PDFs (ie very hard) but I would've thought the obvious reason not to do it is that not everyone has a PDF reader installed so why potentially cut off some of your content from certain users? If it's in HTML at least everyone's going to be able to see it. Also, are handheld users able to view PDFs? I would've thought not. On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:04:01 +1000, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for this list. If so then please point me elsewhere. We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately 140 pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site visitor: 1) Club members (approx 5000) 2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues, wedding venues, dining, conference facilities etc. The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used to update the site several times a day with news of results, events, etc, etc. Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered in an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be degraded to an acceptable single column layout. I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any representation from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for feedback and recommendations from others. Many thanks, -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] What does Semantic mean?
Late to the party, but since I was specifically mentioned it's only polite to reply ;) The issue here is about the meaning of the word semantic. Semantics refer to the *meaning* attached to something. What is the meaning of a div? It's *use* is structural, but it's *meaning* is ... well, it doesn't have a meaning. Only by attaching meaning via a class or id does a div or span acquire meaning. DIVs are an interesting one in that they are neutral, but they aren't really neutral. They just have a very light semantic meaning and it's mostly that their usage creates meaning for the page by adding structure. To me, the structure of a document is inextricably linked with the semantics of the contained elements. So together with headings they define the structure of the page. Although they themselves don't have specific significance, their usage is significant for the page. It gets a bit meta. They enclose semantically significant items. To approach this slightly differently, div+heading is the general non-form content equivalent of fieldset+legend. It seems to me that many people here have different ideas about what semantic means. It would be helpful it we shared a common understanding in our conversations. I welcome, and invite, a *polite and professional* debate about the use of the term semantic as it relates to our work on the web. The use of something, and its meaning are not necessarily the same. They're not necessarily different either :) To come back to the original discussion about fieldsets, everyone has made it very clear what the correct way to use them is, and I don't disagree with them. I'm not interested in their correct (as defined by the specifications) use. As far as I'm concerned, the use of a fieldset is to group form controls and labels. But the meaning is, as the w3schools site says, to group related content. The actual W3C spec says related form controls, it's only a confusingly-named third party that broadens the wording. Personally I discount W3Schools in favour of the actual W3C. [snip re testing in a screen reader] I too would love to see the results of this experiment. Interesting that the code you propose does render ok; but useful functionality is lost. So it's not directly harmful, but substantially detracts from other usage paradigms. fieldsetlegendstaff details/legend dl dtemail/dtdd[EMAIL PROTECTED]/dd dtphone/dtdd12345678/dd /dl /fieldset Is perfectly valid, semantic markup which a screen reader would render just fine. Changing the legend to a header (say an h2 just for discussion) and removing the fieldset also works just fine in a screen reader. In english-language documents the page order associates the H2 with the DL. If the content after the DL is totally unrelated, it would need another heading. But can I point out, Ben, that at no time did anyone ever suggest placing form elements in the middle of general content. I'm not sure where you got that one from. I consider fieldset and legend to be form elements, hence the comment. Admittedly that goes right back to the original point of discussion so I should have clarified a bit :) cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be significant. Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here. how many mobile phone can read pdf? .. I suspect not many yet ... (I have yet to see one which can) btw does anyone know of anything that can export html (even if it is crap html) from a pdf ? (apart from Acrobat Pro itself - I can't justify spending that sort of money for just the occasional attempt to extract useful content from that occasasional pdf sent by clueless media publicists which would otherwise just be deleted) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Print style sheets
Hi all, I'd written a print style sheet for a site I'd done ( http://www.swin.edu.au/ads/ltshowcase/inspire/presentations.html ), but the feedback I got was that nobody knew it was there (unless they printed the page). So I hit google for some suggestions on how best to do this. This has lead to more confusion. One site I read suggested that print style sheets can confuse users when what comes out of the printer differs significantly from what they saw on the page. This is true in my case where I hide the navigation and some background images. I also change the font and justification to better suit print. So do people here think it's a good idea to have a print style sheet that differs from the screen style sheet? In the end, I used some javascript to allow users to switch between two style sheets on the screen. One is designed for the screen, the other designed for print. This way, if they print the page, they get what they see. What do people think about this approach. (If you are unclear from my description about how this works, just visit the page and toggle the print friendly view link near the top of the page). My approach has caused me a further problem: Because I used a link to trigger the script, clicks get added to the browsers history, when technically the user hasn't left the page. Any suggestions for how to get around this? Should I have used a select list? Regards, Lucien. -- Lucien Stals Multimedia/Web Developer Academic Development and Support Swinburne University of Technology PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] telephone: +61 3 9214 4474 office: AD223 Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-GWTYPE:USER FN:Lucien Stals TEL;WORK:4474 ORG:;Academic Development and Support EMAIL;WORK;PREF;NGW:[EMAIL PROTECTED] N:Stals;Lucien END:VCARD *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Keeping state of behaviors
This is quite useful to me. Though I don't quite understand how it works. Is the iframe important to the functioning? Is there a way to do the same thing, but make the state bookmarkable? On 6/8/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I put this together, but I'm not sure it could be useful for anything... May be it could be used with Ajax stuff, when the back button is a concern. http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/keeping_state/keeping_track.html --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Hi Michael, Not sure if this will help you, but on occasion I've been presented with .pdf files to convert to (x)html for web-based tech docs. I do this manually by creating templates in the Visual Studio 2005 markup source code editors, and then copy and paste the content from the .pdf's. This way I have complete control over the structure, presentation and behavior of the resulting web doc. This is ok if the .pdf's haven't been secured by a user name and password. If they have, then I'm outta luck as the copy/paste routine won't work. Personally, I wouldn't trust any .pdf to .html conversion app. If they exist, I feel it would create more work than what I already have to do in this scenario. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 6:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be significant. Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here. how many mobile phone can read pdf? .. I suspect not many yet ... (I have yet to see one which can) btw does anyone know of anything that can export html (even if it is crap html) from a pdf ? (apart from Acrobat Pro itself - I can't justify spending that sort of money for just the occasional attempt to extract useful content from that occasasional pdf sent by clueless media publicists which would otherwise just be deleted) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. Out of curiosity, did they give a reason for this advice? I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use of PDF content instead of html content. PDFs *can be* accessible, but only if the people creating them are extremely well trained and motivated to do so. It is *not* a matter of buying the latest version of Acrobat and hitting export. The real world result is that PDFs *usually are not accessible*. Because usually they're produced by people who have absolutely no training in producing PDFs for on-screen use. Even if they were produced perfectly and they were all accessible, I still wouldn't recommend using PDFs instead of HTML. Fundamentally PDFs are not web documents! They can be delivered via the web but they are not web pages and should never be treated that way. PDFs introduce a huge range of usability issues and the short version is they really annoy the average user and confuse the heck out of less savvy users. I cannot see any logical reason for the advice to your client to go over to mostly-PDF. I would suggest finding out why they suggested it and address the underlying issue. eg. if they want the pages to print well, build a print stylesheet. If they want the page to be updated frequently, train someone to do the HTML/use the CMS. If they don't want prices getting indexed by search engines, use the appropriate meta tags. If they're desperate to control print, then they could *add* PDFs but they shouldn't ditch the HTML. cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Keeping state of behaviors
Is the iframe important to the functioning? definately... It looks to me like it is using the behaviour of the browser history (back and forward) for the iframe. (you hit back and the iframe goes to the previous url that was loaded in it - in this case http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/keeping_state/zurl.html plus a query string which changes) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata
Hi Kane, If it’s of help: /* Guideline 9.4: Do not attempt to create your own tab order. That is a job for a browser and adaptive technology. */ When and where needed (in web forms for instance), I create a tabindex order starting with the number 11 and proceed from there. This usually bypasses the generic built-in browser tab order. /* Guideline 9.5: Don’t provide your own keyboard shortcuts. That is a job for a browser or adaptive technology. */ I provide keyboard shortcuts for global navigation situated on each web page. I cross-browser test to make sure each character I’m using for the Alt + key shortcut doesn’t interfere with generic browser shortcuts. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax:+27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kane Tapping Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 7:23 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata Hi, I have been reading with interest the WCAG Samurai Errata ( http://wcagsamurai.org/errata/intro.html ) and am suprised to have not found it discussed on WSG as of yet. It raises many discussion points two of which mirror my own personal opinion... Guideline 9.4: Do not attempt to create your own tab order. That is a job for a browser and adaptive technology. Guideline 9.5: Don’t provide your own keyboard shortcuts. That is a job for a browser or adaptive technology. I have always found these priority three guidelines to be counter productive because they often conflict with the built-in navigation controls from browsers and screen readers making the website harder to use by those you are trying to help by following the guidelines. What is your opinion on the errata ? Kind Regards, Kane Tapping Web Standards Developer Web and Content Management Services Griffith University. 4111. Australia. [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto://[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Phone: +61 (0)7 3735 7630 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
