[WSG] RE: Tools or analytics to detect assistive devices
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McLaughlin, Gail Sent: 19 November 2008 16:50 I'm wondering if anybody here knows of a way to use analytics data to help determine a good guess or idea of which users are using screen readers to access data, or having trouble with certain pages (thus making the case for doing usability and accessibility exercises)? As screenreaders work within existing browsers (normally IE) it's very hard to detect them. To detect different browsers you'd use the user agent string, but screenreaders don't have user agent strings of their own. At least that's as far as I (and a few other people [1]) am aware. Maybe one of the accessibility gurus on the list has a magic method to detect of a visitor is using a screenreader? Chris [1] http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3775 This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontrol.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] RE: Tools or analytics to detect assistive devices
http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3775 The flash method (detect presence of software that hooks into MSAA) may be of some help if you write a small swf that then pings Google Analytics or similar. But worth noting this recent article http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=61 More fundamentally though, the stats - if you manage to collect them - could be interpreted either way: - we are getting an insignificant number of screenreader users, so it's not worth bothering with accessibility (which also holds the additional misconception that accessibility is just about the extreme case of blind users with screenreaders, rather than the whole spectrum of different users, needs, assistive technologies, etc) or - we are getting such an insignificant number of screenreader users BECAUSE our site is so awful in terms of accessibility, so we really need to improve it. As for checking which users have trouble with certain pages, no stats package will help I think. Best you can do is make a very prominent help/contact link on all your pages and allow for users to send feedback directly. P *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] High-Pass Filter and Yahoo's reset stylesheet (question regarding validation)
Was just wondering. I always use Yahoo's reset.css file to reset elements, but I have just noticed there is a CSS parse error in it (purposely put there for browser selecting). I used the reset.css file in a web development assignment at uni and am worried that I will lose marks. The marking guide says to get an A you must have no CSS errors, but do you think in this case exceptions could be made? Also the High-Pass filter flags a CSS 'File Not Found' error because it uses null as a filename. I used this to target IE 5 and below so they recieve no CSS document. There are 2 errors within the document, should these be classed as errors to degrade my final mark? I have documented them in my test plan to show they are not missed errors but I'm not sure what they will think of it. Any help would be great. James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] High-Pass Filter and Yahoo's reset stylesheet (question regarding validation)
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:45 AM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Was just wondering. I always use Yahoo's reset.css file to reset elements, but I have just noticed there is a CSS parse error in it (purposely put there for browser selecting). I can't see any parse errors in reset.css: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/reset/ I use it myself as the basis for all stylesheets, and have never had a validation problem. - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] High-Pass Filter and Yahoo's reset stylesheet (question regarding validation)
20 input, textarea, select Parse Error {*font-size:100%; 20 input,
textarea, select Parse error - Unrecognized ;}
Test it: http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/reset.css
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Matthew Pennell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:45 AM, James Jeffery
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Was just wondering. I always use Yahoo's reset.css file to reset elements,
but I have just noticed there is a CSS parse error in it (purposely put
there for browser selecting).
I can't see any parse errors in reset.css:
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/reset/
I use it myself as the basis for all stylesheets, and have never had a
validation problem.
- Matthew
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] High-Pass Filter and Yahoo's reset stylesheet (question regarding validation)
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 11:06 AM, James Jeffery
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
20 input, textarea, select Parse Error {*font-size:100%; 20 input,
textarea, select Parse error - Unrecognized ;}
Test it:
http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/reset.csshttp://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/%7E0802390/reset.css
That's not in reset.css, it's from fonts.css. It's also not the High Pass
filter - see here for an explanation:
http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/highpass.html
If you're worried about it, extract the IE-only code out of the file and
wrap it in conditional comments.
- Matthew
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
RE: [WSG] RE: Tools or analytics to detect assistive devices
You may want to check out JAWS - it's one of the most popular screen readers and there is a free version you use to see how it works on a site. http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_jaws.asp Here's a tip that may help, but isn't tested, screen readers act like link text browsers, so you may be able to use that to your advantage and also check the site using a text browser such as Lynx to determine a user-string that may work. Cortney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] High-Pass Filter and Yahoo's reset stylesheet (question regarding validation)
Dude, I didn't say that was the high pass filter. I said that was the error
in the reset.css. The high pass filter is a different issue unrelated to the
Yahoo
reset stylesheet.
Also, if you look at the source code for reset-min.css you will see it isn't
nothing to do with the fonts stylesheet and is infact in the reset-min.css
stylesheet.
Check it yourself. You will see I'm correct ;)
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Matthew Pennell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 11:06 AM, James Jeffery
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
20 input, textarea, select Parse Error {*font-size:100%; 20 input,
textarea, select Parse error - Unrecognized ;}
Test it:
http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/reset.csshttp://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/%7E0802390/reset.css
That's not in reset.css, it's from fonts.css. It's also not the High Pass
filter - see here for an explanation:
http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/highpass.html
If you're worried about it, extract the IE-only code out of the file and
wrap it in conditional comments.
- Matthew
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] High-Pass Filter and Yahoo's reset stylesheet (question regarding validation)
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:42 PM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dude, I didn't say that was the high pass filter. I said that was the error in the reset.css. The high pass filter is a different issue unrelated to the Yahoo reset stylesheet. Ah, sorry - I must have read your original email wrong. Also, if you look at the source code for reset-min.css you will see it isn't nothing to do with the fonts stylesheet and is infact in the reset-min.css stylesheet. That's weird (and a bit crap of Yahoo!) - it's in the reset-min stylesheet, but not in the plain view version of the stylesheet shown on the main YUI Reset page. Guess they haven't updated all the different places it appears as they have added bits. - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Text-only version
Rob -
What I would interpret that to mean is that, by clicking on the link
in the footer, the visitor will be presented the content either
without any graphics or without any graphics or CSS. If it were
merely a matter of the CSS being removed, that shouldn't be a
billable item. However, if all graphics are removed from the page,
then you would have a different version of the page and that would be
billable, though it would likely involve less time to modify the
original template to have a text-only version.
In either case, I would seek detailed clarification of that line item
from their estimate.
At 01:53 PM 11/20/2008, you wrote:
Dear list,
I'm involved in a CMS-based website project where the supplier has
provided me with a breakdown of costs - before I sign it off.
One of the items highlighted in the breakdown is a footer-accessed
link for a text-only version. The supplier claims it's the same
technology used/developed by the BBC - called Betsie.
Do you think it's a service I should be paying for? Although not
expensive, I'm wondering why the 'functionality' needs to be
highlighted at all? Surely, it's the same as saying we'll charge you
separately for css or html markup?
Thoughts...
Thanks,
-- Rob
// Rob Enslin
// twitter.com/robenslin
// +44 (0)759 052 8890
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Tom ('Mas) Pickering - Web Developer Patti Gray - Web Designer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
PourHouse Productions - http://pourhouse.com/
When He Reigns - It Pours )
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Text-only version
Rob Enslin wrote: I'm involved in a CMS-based website project where the supplier has provided me with a breakdown of costs - before I sign it off. One of the items highlighted in the breakdown is a footer-accessed link for a text-only version. The supplier claims it's the same technology used/developed by the BBC - called Betsie. In this day and age, a text-only version benefits nobody anymore. It's unnecessary, if the actual site is built properly. Ask the supplier to leave it out. Oh, Betsie is also quite antiquated and, incidentally, open source http://betsie.sourceforge.net/ P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Text-only version
Betsie does a lot more than just display the page without styles. It was
designed to improve the accessibility of the crappy websites that were the
norm a decade ago, and it is less useful on a website that is coded properly
but it still has some value. The technical spec is at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/betsie/tech.html
You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you can't
do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes.
Steve
_
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom ('Mas) Pickering
Sent: 20 November 2008 20:20
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Text-only version
Rob -
What I would interpret that to mean is that, by clicking on the link in the
footer, the visitor will be presented the content either without any
graphics or without any graphics or CSS. If it were merely a matter of the
CSS being removed, that shouldn't be a billable item. However, if all
graphics are removed from the page, then you would have a different version
of the page and that would be billable, though it would likely involve less
time to modify the original template to have a text-only version.
In either case, I would seek detailed clarification of that line item from
their estimate.
At 01:53 PM 11/20/2008, you wrote:
Dear list,
I'm involved in a CMS-based website project where the supplier has
provided me with a breakdown of costs - before I sign it off.
One of the items highlighted in the breakdown is a footer-accessed
link for a text-only version. The supplier claims it's the same
technology used/developed by the BBC - called Betsie.
Do you think it's a service I should be paying for? Although not
expensive, I'm wondering why the 'functionality' needs to be
highlighted at all? Surely, it's the same as saying we'll charge you
separately for css or html markup?
Thoughts...
Thanks,
-- Rob
// Rob Enslin
// twitter.com/robenslin
// +44 (0)759 052 8890
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Tom ('Mas) Pickering - Web Developer Patti Gray - Web Designer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
PourHouse Productions - http://pourhouse.com/
When He Reigns - It Pours )
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
[WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.
I have, rather unfortunately, entered into an argument with a couple colleagues about the future of HTML/XHTML/XML. So, I was wondering, based on everyone's expertise level here who is right. I say that in the years coming, maybe 20 years from now, who knows, but eventually HTML and XHTML will be replaced by XML. The other two say differently, more along the lines that they will never do away with HTML or XHTML. So...that being said who is right? -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Text-only version
Steve Green wrote: You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes. Unless you set your user agent to do that, because presumably that's something you'd need on all sites, not just one particular one. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.
Brett Patterson wrote: I say that in the years coming, maybe 20 years from now, who knows, but eventually HTML and XHTML will be replaced by XML. The other two say differently, more along the lines that they will never do away with HTML or XHTML. So...that being said who is right? Replacing XHTML with XML would be like replacing buildings with brick and mortar. The point of XML is to make it possible to build languages like XHTML. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.
... I say that in the years coming, maybe 20 years from now, who knows, but eventually HTML and XHTML will be replaced by XML. XHTML _is_ XML The other two say differently, more along the lines that they will never do away with HTML or XHTML. Even if HTML will be replaced by something it won't be XML. And I am pretty sure we will still have plenty of HTML around. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML Standard question
OK. For the last almost 24 hours, I have been trying to get the link to the results posted on the server to work, but have failed miserably. The results were made public to subscribers of the newsletters they mail out every month. They have not yet decided to use the Internet to mail out the newsletters. Just post and allow pay-per-one-time-view. I had to request permission to have a free link up this time. Now the server will not cooperate. Still working on it. To Luke, I did make a mistake in the way I read what was said. They have it turned on by default but would PREFER not to. And to Ben, I read what you posted and the links as well, thanks. I guess I just didn't pay enough attention when searching. On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So exactly what behavior is mandated for UAs implementing HTML5 if a form is submitted with a 'required' element unsatisfied? If I'm reading http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#required0 correctly, the form just won't submit if a required field is empty. Not sure about the UI feedback and so on, although looking at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#form-submission I think the onus will be on the developer to handle error feedback (ie. same as now). cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Text-only version
Agreed. If you've got a user agent that does what you need, Betsie doesn't really add anything. If you don't have access to your own machine (and none of us do all of the time) then it does perform a useful function for some people. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: 20 November 2008 20:54 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Text-only version Steve Green wrote: You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes. Unless you set your user agent to do that, because presumably that's something you'd need on all sites, not just one particular one. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Text-only version
Steve Green wrote:
You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you
can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes.
CSS is quite capable of that.
The following works fine in Opera 9.62 (the only browser I've bothered
to test for this proof of concept).
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd;
titleReplace Image With Alt/title
style type=text/css
img {
height: 0; width: 0;
}
img::after {
content : attr(alt);
}
/style
h1Replace Image With Alt/h1
div
img src=http://dorward.me.uk/images/wheel/logo.png;
alt=Dorward Online
/div
--
David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Text-only version
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes. Does this solve some problem? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Text-only version
Yes it does. It allows the creation of a text-only version for people who need one but don't have a suitable user agent on the machine that they currently have access to. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: 20 November 2008 21:07 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Text-only version On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes. Does this solve some problem? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Text-only version
Yes, of course you can do stuff like this, although it gets pretty ugly and
bloated if you have a lot of images. The point of Betsie is that it can be
retrofitted to existing websites without the need to modify any code.
It also caters for people who are working on a machine that is not
configured to their needs and cannot be altered e.g. in an Internet cafe or
a locked-down machine in someone else's office. Your image replacement
technique does not cater for these situations unless you also add a style
switcher, but that appears to be taboo in this list.
Steve
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Dorward
Sent: 20 November 2008 21:06
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Text-only version
Steve Green wrote:
You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you
can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes.
CSS is quite capable of that.
The following works fine in Opera 9.62 (the only browser I've bothered to
test for this proof of concept).
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd;
titleReplace Image With Alt/title
style type=text/css
img {
height: 0; width: 0;
}
img::after {
content : attr(alt);
}
/style
h1Replace Image With Alt/h1
div
img src=http://dorward.me.uk/images/wheel/logo.png;
alt=Dorward Online
/div
--
David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Text-only version
Hi Patrick, Appreciate the feedback - thought as much, but always worth checking with the pros. Best, --Rob On 20 Nov 2008, at 20:39, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob Enslin wrote: I'm involved in a CMS-based website project where the supplier has provided me with a breakdown of costs - before I sign it off. One of the items highlighted in the breakdown is a footer-accessed link for a text-only version. The supplier claims it's the same technology used/developed by the BBC - called Betsie. In this day and age, a text-only version benefits nobody anymore. It's unnecessary, if the actual site is built properly. Ask the supplier to leave it out. Oh, Betsie is also quite antiquated and, incidentally, open source http://betsie.sourceforge.net/ P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Text-only version
I see where you're coming from, but the logical extension of your argument is that there are never any instances where it is necessary to use images to convey information. That is certainly often the case, but can we say 'never'? You are not always able to make sites as semantically pure as you might wish (unless you are prepared to walk away from a lot of work). For instance I am currently working with a group of large retail brands where the brand managers will absolutely not permit the degradation of the visual appearance by replacing the graphical representations of text with real text. We're not starting with a clean sheet, so a jump to a pure semantic website just isn't going to happen in one step (at least not in the timescale they are looking for). Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: 20 November 2008 21:33 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Text-only version On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes. Does this solve some problem? On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes it does. It allows the creation of a text-only version for people who need one but don't have a suitable user agent on the machine that they currently have access to. I'm still not seeing the problem for the solution. If you can't see images, does the alt text really help? I don't mean to sound annoying, I'm just trying to see the point of using Betsie on a semantic website. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue
Hi, could used named ampersand character codes. http://www.yourhtmlsource.com/text/specialcharacters.html eg lsquo;SOAPrsquo; On Wed, November 19, 2008 4:05 pm, James Jeffery wrote: Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue. Some of my characters, especially when using ' seem to mess up. This is the page, content and layout are simple as it's for a uni assignment: http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/overview.html Check out the overview.html page, and notice the issues. There is one noticeable in the overview page âSOAPâ Any ideas? (for those interested I do plan to publish a website regarding the Semantic Web shortly). *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Animated gifs
Good morning Re-designing a site for a client who wants to use the same header image from his old site. This is an animated gif with rippling water. Am I right in thinking an animated gif will not optimise?The pic is 1.21 MB ! The optimised version is 24.2 kb but alas, no moving water. Kind regards Lyn www.westernwebdesign.com.au Affordable web design, Perth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Animated gifs
You could try and redo the frame rate on it so that its not as smooth, which the client may not like, but it will cut down the file size. Or maybe look for a royalty free FLASH version that's similar. That would be much smaller. No matter what you try to explain to some people they just don't get that this sort of thing doesn't bring in sales. Its only cute the first time then its old. You could show him the site in one of the addons that show the different download speeds like dial-up then while he's watching it SLOWLY download explain he is losing sales prospects by the second. Frederick R. Matzen Eye Risk Design www.eyeriskdeisng.com www.onelastwish.com On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Lynette Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Good morning Re-designing a site for a client who wants to use the same header image from his old site. This is an animated gif with rippling water. Am I right in thinking an animated gif will not optimise?The pic is 1.21 MB ! The optimised version is 24.2 kb but alas, no moving water. Kind regards Lyn www.westernwebdesign.com.au Affordable web design, Perth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Animated gifs
Re-designing a site for a client who wants to use the same header image from his old site. This is an animated gif with rippling water. Am I right in thinking an animated gif will not optimise?The pic is 1.21 MB ! The optimised version is 24.2 kb but alas, no moving water. I just read the following article that mentions one tool to optimize GIF animations. See step 4. http://yuiblog.com/blog/2008/11/14/imageopt-3/ Chris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Animated gifs
Thanks Frederick and Chris - that's very interesting. Will see what I can do. Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Animated gifs
I had to do this once in the past... and in the end I split the animation up into its individual frames, optimized each frame to within an inch of its life, then re-built it as an animation. Cut the file size down to 10% of the original size. I recall that I did screen-shots of every 'frame' of the animation and started from there, but I am sure I later found a way to pull the frames straight out of the file. On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Lynette Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Thanks Frederick and Chris - that's very interesting. Will see what I can do. Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Animated gifs
I had to do this once in the past... and in the end I split the animation up into its individual frames, optimized each frame to within an inch of its life, then re-built it as an animation. Cut the file size down to 10% of the original size. That sounds good, if a lot of work. Thanks Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Text-only version
Do you think it's a service I should be paying for? Although not expensive, I'm wondering why the 'functionality' needs to be highlighted at all? Surely, it's the same as saying we'll charge you separately for css or html markup? I'm naturally cynical/suspicious about what suppliers claim in the pre-signoff phase. Generally everything's a lot easier, more stuff is included and nothing is impossible.until the ink hits paper ;) In this instance I'd be asking them why the site needs a text-only alternative! It smells rather like they're going to build a table-based site or some other thing that's not accessible, then create a whole second version instead of doing the first one the right way. Alternatively they may just be setting up an easy way for users to disable styles. But you should get them to explain a bit further. cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Animated gifs
Just tell the client that you can charge them for a full day of your time to fix it, or they can just have a still version for free. Let them make the decision for you ;-) On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Lynette Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I had to do this once in the past... and in the end I split the animation up into its individual frames, optimized each frame to within an inch of its life, then re-built it as an animation. Cut the file size down to 10% of the original size. That sounds good, if a lot of work. Thanks Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.
Christian Montoya wrote: You'll have telepathic computer displays before _real_ XHTML replaces HTML. link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=mind href=... Ha! Nice one. A while back, I stopped using XHTML strict and switched to HTML 4.01 strict DTD's. Personally, I think HTML 4.01 strict is a good pick. I think some would say It does not matter if the DTD is XHTML/HTML... As long as it is strict. This FAQ is a good resource: Frequently Asked Questions About XHTML vs HTML http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393445 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.
Micky Hulse wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: You'll have telepathic computer displays before _real_ XHTML replaces HTML. link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=mind href=... Ha! Nice one. A while back, I stopped using XHTML strict and switched to HTML 4.01 strict DTD's. Personally, I think HTML 4.01 strict is a good pick. I think some would say It does not matter if the DTD is XHTML/HTML... As long as it is strict. This FAQ is a good resource: Frequently Asked Questions About XHTML vs HTML http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393445 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** I made the same decision. I still follow HTML and XHTML, but anything I do (and have a choice about) is always HTML 4.01 Strict. I think it makes more sense than XHTML 1.0 Strict at this point since we can't really use real XHTML yet. It seems to defeat the purpose if you are using a Strict DTD incorrectly. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Animated gifs
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 7:46 PM, David Pietersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had to do this once in the past... and in the end I split the animation up into its individual frames, optimized each frame to within an inch of its life, then re-built it as an animation. Cut the file size down to 10% of the original size. I recall that I did screen-shots of every 'frame' of the animation and started from there, but I am sure I later found a way to pull the frames straight out of the file. GIMP will allow you to open it as separate layers which you can optimize. But please, convince him this is a bad idea! Show him some good looking websites that are similar in their style but don't rely on animation. Make him think it was HIS idea. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.
I made the same decision. I still follow HTML and XHTML, but anything I do (and have a choice about) is always HTML 4.01 Strict. I think it makes more sense than XHTML 1.0 Strict at this point since we can't really use real XHTML yet. It seems to defeat the purpose if you are using a Strict DTD incorrectly. Same here and looking forward to start using HTML5, at least for the personal projects first. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.
To follow up on Micky, Christian and Rimantas, here's the latest info on HTML 5: HTML 5 Draft Recommendation — 20 November 2008: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ The Web Developer's Guide to HTML 5 - W3C Editor's Draft 19 November 2008 (written by my colleague, Lachlan Hunt): http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/ Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer Opera Software http://www.opera.com/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ http://frank.helpware.net On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:36 AM, Rimantas Liubertas [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I made the same decision. I still follow HTML and XHTML, but anything I do (and have a choice about) is always HTML 4.01 Strict. I think it makes more sense than XHTML 1.0 Strict at this point since we can't really use real XHTML yet. It seems to defeat the purpose if you are using a Strict DTD incorrectly. Same here and looking forward to start using HTML5, at least for the personal projects first. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.
Frank Palinkas wrote: To follow up on Micky, Christian and Rimantas, here's the latest info on HTML 5: Thanks for those links! :) Cheers, Micky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Animated gifs
If you have Adobe Photoshop you probably also have Adobe ImageReady. You can use ImageReady to edit and optimise animated gifs. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
