[WSG] Amanda Finnis is out of the office.

[Amanda . Finnis]

I will be out of the office starting  06/02/2009 and will not return until
10/02/2009.

I am on leave until Tuesday 10 February 2008. If  you have an urgent
enquiry please call my mobile on 0410 660 431.  Amanda


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Re: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Michael MD]

My Web team and I are discussing whether or not we should open links to 
PDFs and other non-html pages in a new window.


a big "no" from me
not in a new window, or ANY browser window.

Acrobat Reader can take a long time to start on some machines.
It can be extremely annoying for users to be forced to wait a long time for 
a plugin to start (with the browser locked up in the meantime) -
especially if they clicked on the link assuming it was a normal link to 
another page!


I would simply provide links clearly marked as pdf so the user can download 
them and open them with a standalone reader.


Someone cited Jakob Nielsen's argument at 
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html as the reason we should 
open in a new window. (We all work on government Web sites and they are 
about >to release a new set of linking standards.)


There are a lot of people out there with very old machines and old versions 
of acrobat reader and it is not a good idea to risk leaving people sitting 
there waiting for so long with an unresponsive browser that they might think 
their browser has "crashed"!







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Re: RE: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Mathew Robertson]

If the PDF is behind a secure form, how do you stop the user saving the PDF, 
then emailing to everybody?   -> if the information is in a PDF, then you must 
consider that information to be insecure.  That also applies to all web pages 
-> they can be saved locally, etc.

Mathew Robertson


> Sandy @ Mega Star Media INC  wrote:
> 
> I agree with download if that is an option..meaning that the PDF is not 
> an
> online secure form...
> Good point.
> sandy
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] 
> On
> Behalf Of Mathew Robertson
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 2:49 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new 
> browser
> window
> 
> > My Web team and I are discussing whether or not we should open links 
> to
> PDFs
> > and other non-html pages in a new window. Someone cited Jakob 
> Nielsen's
> > argument at http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html as the
> > reason we should open in a new window. (We all work on government Web
> sites
> > and they are about to release a new set of linking standards.)
> > 
> > I know this is an old school type question, but we are very divided 
> about
> > this. The people on our usability team are with Nielsen, but others 
> (like
> > me) are not so sure. Isn't accessibility to new windows a problem as 
> it
> > changes the focus? What do you think?
> 
> I'll go out on a limb and say 'niether' -> allow the user to save the
> document locally, becuase:
> - opening a non-web document in a browser, causes the browser to freeze
> while the application gets loaded; on a slow machine, this can be 
> upwards of
> a minute or two.
> - you cant switch tabs to continue working, while the application loads
> - often browser plugins dont support a "save to desktop" option
> - some plugins are notoriously buggy, so as website designer you 
> shouldn't
> encourage the browser to crash (an thus destroying the history of every
> other tab in the process - firefox/opera not withstanding), just to 
> display
> your non-web document, eg: some older versions of Acroread come to mind 
> as
> causing much frustration in this regard.
> - most browser plugins have a cut-down feature set from the full 
> product,
> making them quite unhelpful to use.
> 
> In any case, it is possible to detect if the browser supports a given 
> plugin
> (eg: pdf, doc, etc) -> so it becomes possible to supply the user with 
> the
> most appropriate format.
> 
> For example: the purpose of pdf's is for offline reference or for 
> printing -
> if the browser doesn't support pdf, the server could reasonably assume 
> that
> the user doesn't have native pdf support.  Then a suitable message could 
> be
> displayed accordingly.  Alternatively the server could convert the pdf 
> to
> html and thus be able to at least render it (probably quite awfully) 
> within
> the browser.
> 
> regards,
> Mathew Robertson
> 
> 
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> 
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Re: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Chris Cressman]

> The best way to deal with the situation is to clearly label the link as
> being PDF and let the user decide how they wish to proceed.

I think this is good advice. Anecdotally, I most often encounter a PDF
via a standard link and have therefore developed an expectation of
what will happen when I click a link to a PDF. I imagine (again, this
is anecdotal) that most other users have also developed a certain
expectation of how a PDF on the web will open. I wouldn't want to
throw them off buy forcing a certain behavior that clashes with their
default behavior.

Chris


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Re: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Matt Morgan-May]

On 2/5/09 1:30 PM, "Carolyn Diaz"  wrote:
> I know this is an old school type question, but we are very divided about
> this. The people on our usability team are with Nielsen, but others (like me)
> are not so sure. Isn't accessibility to new windows a problem as it changes
> the focus? What do you think?

I think you're better off loading the PDF in the same window. If a user
prefers to load PDFs in another window, it's likely that they want to load
it into Adobe Reader rather than an IE wrapper of the Reader plugin. Users
with that preference can use Reader's accessibility wizard to configure all
PDFs to be opened in Reader.

As far as accessibility is concerned, the big issue with opening new windows
is actually with windows being opened involuntarily, e.g. popups. (Even
then, it's only a Level AAA requirement in WCAG 2.) Using target on links is
not a problem--anymore.

And, what Lachlan said about marking PDF documents as PDFs. :)

-
m



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Re: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Lachlan Hunt]

Carolyn Diaz wrote:

My Web team and I are discussing whether or not we should open links to PDFs
and other non-html pages in a new window. Someone cited Jakob Nielsen's
argument at http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html as the
reason we should open in a new window. (We all work on government Web sites
and they are about to release a new set of linking standards.)


While Jakob is often right about usability issues, he is absolutely 
wrong about this.  His advise is based on an extremely limited 
understanding and faulty assumptions about the way PDFs work on many 
systems.


While the problems he cites have been well known issues with old 
versions of Adobe Acrobat, due to its slowness and defaulting to opening 
within the browser window in some browsers, that is not the case with 
all PDF viewers and browsers.


Depending on the combination of browser, PDF viewer, and the user's 
preferences, some open within the same browser window by default, others 
launch the PDF viewer in a separate tab by default and others launch the 
PDF viewer as a separate application.  If you attempt to force a new 
window, the many people in the latter case (especially Opera and Firefox 
users on Mac, for example) will end up with a new blank tab while the 
PDF opens in the PDF viewer.


The best way to deal with the situation is to clearly label the link as 
being PDF and let the user decide how they wish to proceed.


--
Lachlan Hunt - Opera Software
http://lachy.id.au/
http://www.opera.com/


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RE: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Sandy @ Mega Star Media INC]

I agree with download if that is an option..meaning that the PDF is not an
online secure form...
Good point.
sandy

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Mathew Robertson
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 2:49 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser
window

> My Web team and I are discussing whether or not we should open links to
PDFs
> and other non-html pages in a new window. Someone cited Jakob Nielsen's
> argument at http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html as the
> reason we should open in a new window. (We all work on government Web
sites
> and they are about to release a new set of linking standards.)
> 
> I know this is an old school type question, but we are very divided about
> this. The people on our usability team are with Nielsen, but others (like
> me) are not so sure. Isn't accessibility to new windows a problem as it
> changes the focus? What do you think?

I'll go out on a limb and say 'niether' -> allow the user to save the
document locally, becuase:
- opening a non-web document in a browser, causes the browser to freeze
while the application gets loaded; on a slow machine, this can be upwards of
a minute or two.
- you cant switch tabs to continue working, while the application loads
- often browser plugins dont support a "save to desktop" option
- some plugins are notoriously buggy, so as website designer you shouldn't
encourage the browser to crash (an thus destroying the history of every
other tab in the process - firefox/opera not withstanding), just to display
your non-web document, eg: some older versions of Acroread come to mind as
causing much frustration in this regard.
- most browser plugins have a cut-down feature set from the full product,
making them quite unhelpful to use.

In any case, it is possible to detect if the browser supports a given plugin
(eg: pdf, doc, etc) -> so it becomes possible to supply the user with the
most appropriate format.

For example: the purpose of pdf's is for offline reference or for printing -
if the browser doesn't support pdf, the server could reasonably assume that
the user doesn't have native pdf support.  Then a suitable message could be
displayed accordingly.  Alternatively the server could convert the pdf to
html and thus be able to at least render it (probably quite awfully) within
the browser.

regards,
Mathew Robertson


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RE: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Chris F.A. Johnson]

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Carolyn
Diaz
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:31 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

 

My Web team and I are discussing whether or not we should open links to PDFs 
and other
non-html pages in a new window. Someone cited Jakob Nielsen's argument at
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html as the reason we should 
open in a new
window. (We all work on government Web sites and they are about to release a 
new set of
linking standards.)



I agree with Nielsen:


 4. Best of all, prevent the browser from opening the document in
the first place.


--
   Chris F.A. Johnson  
   ===
   Author:
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

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Re: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Mathew Robertson]

> My Web team and I are discussing whether or not we should open links to PDFs
> and other non-html pages in a new window. Someone cited Jakob Nielsen's
> argument at http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html as the
> reason we should open in a new window. (We all work on government Web sites
> and they are about to release a new set of linking standards.)
> 
> I know this is an old school type question, but we are very divided about
> this. The people on our usability team are with Nielsen, but others (like
> me) are not so sure. Isn't accessibility to new windows a problem as it
> changes the focus? What do you think?

I'll go out on a limb and say 'niether' -> allow the user to save the document 
locally, becuase:
- opening a non-web document in a browser, causes the browser to freeze while 
the application gets loaded; on a slow machine, this can be upwards of a minute 
or two.
- you cant switch tabs to continue working, while the application loads
- often browser plugins dont support a "save to desktop" option
- some plugins are notoriously buggy, so as website designer you shouldn't 
encourage the browser to crash (an thus destroying the history of every other 
tab in the process - firefox/opera not withstanding), just to display your 
non-web document, eg: some older versions of Acroread come to mind as causing 
much frustration in this regard.
- most browser plugins have a cut-down feature set from the full product, 
making them quite unhelpful to use.

In any case, it is possible to detect if the browser supports a given plugin 
(eg: pdf, doc, etc) -> so it becomes possible to supply the user with the most 
appropriate format.

For example: the purpose of pdf's is for offline reference or for printing - if 
the browser doesn't support pdf, the server could reasonably assume that the 
user doesn't have native pdf support.  Then a suitable message could be 
displayed accordingly.  Alternatively the server could convert the pdf to html 
and thus be able to at least render it (probably quite awfully) within the 
browser.

regards,
Mathew Robertson


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RE: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Sandy @ Mega Star Media INC]

I have to agree, having it open in a new window makes sense for most users,
because not all users are savy enough to know to hit the back button to view
the previous page. If the pdf had a link/nav bar at the top instructing the
user on how to do this.then sure, open in the same window is fine.

Hope this helps.

sandy

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Carolyn Diaz
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:31 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

 

My Web team and I are discussing whether or not we should open links to PDFs
and other non-html pages in a new window. Someone cited Jakob Nielsen's
argument at http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html as the
reason we should open in a new window. (We all work on government Web sites
and they are about to release a new set of linking standards.)

I know this is an old school type question, but we are very divided about
this. The people on our usability team are with Nielsen, but others (like
me) are not so sure. Isn't accessibility to new windows a problem as it
changes the focus? What do you think?

Carolyn

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Re: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Felix Miata]

On 2009/02/05 16:30 (GMT-0500) Carolyn Diaz composed:

> My Web team and I are discussing whether or not we should open links to PDFs
> and other non-html pages in a new window. Someone cited Jakob Nielsen's
> argument at http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html as the
> reason we should open in a new window. (We all work on government Web sites
> and they are about to release a new set of linking standards.)

> I know this is an old school type question, but we are very divided about
> this. The people on our usability team are with Nielsen, but others (like
> me) are not so sure. Isn't accessibility to new windows a problem as it
> changes the focus? What do you think?

Jakob is right, about everything on that page, in particular: "best of all,
prevent the browser from opening the document".
-- 
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your
mouths, but only what is helpful for building
others up." Ephesians 4:29 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/


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[WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Carolyn Diaz]

My Web team and I are discussing whether or not we should open links to PDFs
and other non-html pages in a new window. Someone cited Jakob Nielsen's
argument at http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html as the
reason we should open in a new window. (We all work on government Web sites
and they are about to release a new set of linking standards.)

I know this is an old school type question, but we are very divided about
this. The people on our usability team are with Nielsen, but others (like
me) are not so sure. Isn't accessibility to new windows a problem as it
changes the focus? What do you think?

Carolyn


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