RE: [WSG] So this is *the* good accessible keyboard supported dropdown menu?

[Thierry Koblentz]

> On Behalf Of Al Sparber
> 
> From: "Thierry Koblentz" 
> > What is the solution you're talking about?
> > That link you posted does not tell us much about your "own
> simplistic,
> > unsophisticated way", nor what is your "different view of menu
> > Accessibility".
> 
> It must be so simple it went over your head :-)

My apologies for trying to make sense of your post.


--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz







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Re: [WSG] So this is *the* good accessible keyboard supported dropdown menu?

[Al Sparber]

From: "Thierry Koblentz" 

What is the solution you're talking about?
That link you posted does not tell us much about your "own simplistic,
unsophisticated way", nor what is your "different view of menu
Accessibility".


It must be so simple it went over your head :-)

I'm not here to argue, debate, or press my views. Consider my post a statement about a system that works for us and our customers. 
Perhaps someone else would be interested in engaging in a debate or raising other accessibility solutions - but mine was a one-way 
post and I am only replying to you to clarify that. Ours works for us and for our testers - and that's all that matters to us. Read 
it and understand or simply present or use another solution.


Cheers and adios.

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/hgm
The Ultimate Web 2.0 Carousel







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RE: [WSG] So this is *the* good accessible keyboard supported dropdown menu?

[Thierry Koblentz]

> Probably. I think there is a faction in the accessibility community
> that believes a web page menu should work like a desktop
> application or OS menu. The problem is that web surfing civilians who
> use the keyboard are accustomed to the tab key (or equiv) and
> not the arrow keys for navigating a web page. Complicating the matter
> now, of course, are smart phones. In our own simplistic,
> unsophisticated way, we've taken a much different view of menu
> accessibility. While most experienced standards and accessibility
> experts seem to disagree with us, our testing lab, consisting of real
> people with real disabilities, seems to think it makes sense.
> 
> I'm sure some here will disagree, so just consider it one possible
> solution.

What is the solution you're talking about? 
That link you posted does not tell us much about your "own simplistic,
unsophisticated way", nor what is your "different view of menu
Accessibility".


--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz





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Re: [WSG] So this is *the* good accessible keyboard supported dropdown menu?

[Al Sparber]

From: "tee" 
At Menubar, try tab through the link using your keyboard, right after you hit "File", the next link it headed is the  download 
link below the Source.


http://hanshillen.github.com/aegisdemo/

As a Superfish script and a frequent keyboard navigation user, I expect the second tabbing destination to be the "Edit" menu 
because of many comments and articles I read which were written by accessibility practitioners and those who never missed the 
opportunity to stone Superfish every time they see a chance.


I was a bit lost when I didn't see the orange focus color for "Edit" after I tabbed through the "File"; first I thought it behaves 
like Superfish (which heads for 2nd level). Then I realized I must use the 'right arrow' to navigate to "Edit", is this the 
absolute way for keyboard user to expect that a an accessible keyboard supported dropdown menu will only work like this using 
arrow keys?


Probably. I think there is a faction in the accessibility community that believes a web page menu should work like a desktop 
application or OS menu. The problem is that web surfing civilians who use the keyboard are accustomed to the tab key (or equiv) and 
not the arrow keys for navigating a web page. Complicating the matter now, of course, are smart phones. In our own simplistic, 
unsophisticated way, we've taken a much different view of menu accessibility. While most experienced standards and accessibility 
experts seem to disagree with us, our testing lab, consisting of real people with real disabilities, seems to think it makes sense.


http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm2/ug-examples/accessible/

I'm sure some here will disagree, so just consider it one possible solution.

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/hgm
The Ultimate Web 2.0 Carousel





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Re: [WSG] list style with inline image issue

[tee]

Tim,

Thanks! This won't work very well though because not all LIs have image and I 
can't foresee which one will not have.

Your example gave me an idea to remove the float, and it seems to be working. 
See the test page again!

vertical-align:top makes the image aligns with the text.

tee


On Oct 14, 2010, at 6:16 PM, Tim White wrote:

> Tee,
> 
> Just a quick test I came up with this:
> 
> li {
>   padding-bottom: 5px;
>   clear: both;
>   list-style-type: disc;
>   padding-left: 75px;
>   margin-bottom: 50px;
>   position: relative;
>   }
> li img {
>   position: absolute;
>   top: 0; left: 0;
>   border:1px solid red;
>   }
> 
> Instead of floating your image, position it in the LI. With list-style
> outside or no list-style this worked in Chrome, Opera, Firefox and IE
> 8. I just quickly hacked the rest of the numbers to get it to work.
> 
> Tim W.
> 
> (By the way, you have class="outside" on your last list item in the
> HTML and I don't think you meant to)
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 7:43 PM, tee  wrote:
>> In this page:
>> http://lotusseedsdesign.com/css-test/list-style.html
>> 
>> Only Firefox got it right. Have not checked in IE yet.
>> 
>> li {padding-bottom: 5px;clear: both;list-style-type: disc;margin-left: 25px;}
>> li img {float: left;margin-right:10px;margin-bottom: 10px;border:0}
>> 
>> li.inside{list-style-position: inside}
>> li.outside{list-style-position: outside}
>> 
>> 
>> Is there a workaround?
>> 
>> tee
>> 
>> 
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Re: [WSG] list style with inline image issue

[Tim White]

Tee,

Just a quick test I came up with this:

li {
padding-bottom: 5px;
clear: both;
list-style-type: disc;
padding-left: 75px;
margin-bottom: 50px;
position: relative;
}
li img {
position: absolute;
top: 0; left: 0;
border:1px solid red;
}

Instead of floating your image, position it in the LI. With list-style
outside or no list-style this worked in Chrome, Opera, Firefox and IE
8. I just quickly hacked the rest of the numbers to get it to work.

Tim W.

(By the way, you have class="outside" on your last list item in the
HTML and I don't think you meant to)


On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 7:43 PM, tee  wrote:
> In this page:
> http://lotusseedsdesign.com/css-test/list-style.html
>
> Only Firefox got it right. Have not checked in IE yet.
>
> li {padding-bottom: 5px;clear: both;list-style-type: disc;margin-left: 25px;}
> li img {float: left;margin-right:10px;margin-bottom: 10px;border:0}
>
> li.inside{list-style-position: inside}
> li.outside{list-style-position: outside}
>
>
> Is there a workaround?
>
> tee
>
>
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[WSG] So this is *the* good accessible keyboard supported dropdown menu?

[tee]

Disclaimer: This is not a sarcastic question.

At Menubar, try tab through the link using your keyboard, right after you hit 
"File", the next link it headed is the  download link below the Source. 

http://hanshillen.github.com/aegisdemo/

As a Superfish script and a frequent keyboard navigation user, I expect the 
second tabbing destination to be the "Edit" menu because of many comments and 
articles I read which were written by accessibility practitioners and those who 
never missed the opportunity to stone Superfish every time they see a chance.  

I was a bit lost when I didn't see the orange focus color for "Edit" after I 
tabbed through the "File"; first I thought it behaves like Superfish (which 
heads for 2nd level). Then I realized I must use the 'right arrow' to navigate 
to "Edit", is this the absolute way for keyboard user to expect that a an 
accessible keyboard supported dropdown menu will only work like this using 
arrow keys?


tee



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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Christian Snodgrass]

Agreed.

However, with the separate images you can put them in an unordered list
yourself to control the display a bit more closely.

I'm not saying any of these are 100% good all the time. I like to soak up as
many different techniques as possible and choose the one that is the most
appropriate for the task.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Mathew Robertson <
mathew.blair.robert...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That is unnecessary - 's support alt.  With both CSS and images
> disabled, a useragent should be able to draw the USA-map graphically using a
> fallback css; if using a text-browser, it could render it as a list ->
> whether they actually do, is an entirely different problem, ie: if an image
> has 'usemap' (and a map exists with alt attributes) then the text-browser
> could assume that a flat list could be rendered.
>
> Aside: the spec (http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#h-13.6) says
> "... with a mouse..."
>
> regards,
> Mathew Robertson
>
>
> On 15 October 2010 10:43, Christian Snodgrass wrote:
>
>> That map also illustrates the problem with image maps.
>>
>> Disable images and refresh the page. It becomes completely unusable
>> (granted there are ways to make the image map work better with no images,
>> but this is the more common situation).
>>
>> If they were all separate images with their own alt tags, they could form
>> a nice little list of states when there are no images.
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Mathew Robertson]

That is unnecessary - 's support alt.  With both CSS and images
disabled, a useragent should be able to draw the USA-map graphically using a
fallback css; if using a text-browser, it could render it as a list ->
whether they actually do, is an entirely different problem, ie: if an image
has 'usemap' (and a map exists with alt attributes) then the text-browser
could assume that a flat list could be rendered.

Aside: the spec (http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#h-13.6) says
"... with a mouse..."

regards,
Mathew Robertson

On 15 October 2010 10:43, Christian Snodgrass wrote:

> That map also illustrates the problem with image maps.
>
> Disable images and refresh the page. It becomes completely unusable
> (granted there are ways to make the image map work better with no images,
> but this is the more common situation).
>
> If they were all separate images with their own alt tags, they could form a
> nice little list of states when there are no images.
>
>


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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Christian Snodgrass]

As far as I know, image maps are not deprecated... just often abused so you
should really consider your options. I agree with your little analogy as
well. I'd evaluate exactly what the problem is and then pick a solution.

For example, if all the shapes in the potential map are square, it'd be easy
to separate into individual images. If they would need 800 points in a
polygon, maybe a color-picker based JS script could be employed (you could
probably write one of these in <100 pixels). If you don't need to be that
specific, just place anchor tags over a plain image (or use them as
background images in the anchor), etc.

And there are definitely ways to make image maps more accessible.

I'd say if you came across something that you thought about using an image
map, just ask yourself what other solutions you can use and evaluate if any
of those may be a better fit.

- Christian

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Mathew Robertson <
mathew.blair.robert...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>>  US map example: http://davidlynch.org/js/maphilight/docs/demo_usa.html
>>
>>
> That isn't really a good example of accessibility + images-maps, as it
> doesn't have any... maybe it could be updated to use the tabindex attribute.
>
> cheers,
> Mathew Robertson
>
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[WSG] Re: list style with inline image issue

[tee]

Forgot to say, I am not interested in background image approach in this case.

tee
On Oct 14, 2010, at 4:43 PM, tee wrote:

> In this page:
> http://lotusseedsdesign.com/css-test/list-style.html
> 
> Only Firefox got it right. Have not checked in IE yet. 
> 
> li {padding-bottom: 5px;clear: both;list-style-type: disc;margin-left: 25px;}
> li img {float: left;margin-right:10px;margin-bottom: 10px;border:0}
> 
> li.inside{list-style-position: inside}
> li.outside{list-style-position: outside}
> 
> 
> Is there a workaround?
> 
> tee



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[WSG] list style with inline image issue

[tee]

In this page:
http://lotusseedsdesign.com/css-test/list-style.html

Only Firefox got it right. Have not checked in IE yet. 

li {padding-bottom: 5px;clear: both;list-style-type: disc;margin-left: 25px;}
li img {float: left;margin-right:10px;margin-bottom: 10px;border:0}

li.inside{list-style-position: inside}
li.outside{list-style-position: outside}


Is there a workaround?

tee


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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Christian Snodgrass]

That map also illustrates the problem with image maps.

Disable images and refresh the page. It becomes completely unusable (granted
there are ways to make the image map work better with no images, but this is
the more common situation).

If they were all separate images with their own alt tags, they could form a
nice little list of states when there are no images.

- Christian

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 7:30 PM, Henrik Madsen wrote:

>
> US map example: http://davidlynch.org/js/maphilight/docs/demo_usa.html
>
> [image: GENERATOR] 
>
>
> *Henrik Madsen*
> +61 08 9387 1250
> hen...@igenerator.com.au
> www.igenerator.com.au
>
> On 15/10/2010, at 7:19 AM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:
>
> In the US map problem, an image map may make sense.
>
> However, there are many more in which an image map doesn't make sense. For
> example, having a graphical menu with an image map, having a header image
> map for links, etc. These would be better done using separate images.
>
> Also, sometimes a scripted method might work best. For example, you could
> have each state a different image and different color. Instead of having to
> try to do a crazy 800 point polygon, you could do a script where it compares
> the color under the cursor when you click and determines which state you
> clicked on with high precision.
>
> I'm not saying image maps should never be used... I'm saying that you
> should keep in mind alternatives because image maps are frequently abused.
>
> - Christian
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Hassan Schroeder 
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/14/10 1:23 PM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:
>>
>>  If you needed to get more exact, you could use any number of Javascript
>>> script to get more exact
>>> results.
>>>
>>
>> And all this thrashing about is going to provide a more accessible
>> solution than an image map?
>>
>>
>>  The exact solution depends on the exact problem.
>>>
>>
>> How about the "exact problem" being the one that image maps were
>> *designed* to solve? Allowing arbitrary shapes within an image to
>> be linked to different content? As in the US state example?
>>
>> --
>> Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
>> webtuitive design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com
>> twitter: @hassan
>>  dream.  code.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Mathew Robertson]

>
>
>  US map example: http://davidlynch.org/js/maphilight/docs/demo_usa.html
>
>
That isn't really a good example of accessibility + images-maps, as it
doesn't have any... maybe it could be updated to use the tabindex attribute.

cheers,
Mathew Robertson


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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[cat soul]

On Oct 14, 2010, at 4:19 PM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:

I'm not saying image maps should never be used... I'm saying that  
you should keep in mind alternatives because image maps are  
frequently abuse



That is completely clear and understandable.

And, I would as (as I don't know) are image maps in disfavor, or have  
they been depricated, or are we discouraged from using them in favor  
of their (potentially bombastic) scripted counterparts?


One doesn't want to use a Howitzer to smack a skeeter; one doesn't  
use a flyswatter on an incoming bomber.


thoughts?

cs

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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Henrik Madsen]

US map example: http://davidlynch.org/js/maphilight/docs/demo_usa.html




Henrik Madsen
+61 08 9387 1250
hen...@igenerator.com.au
www.igenerator.com.au

On 15/10/2010, at 7:19 AM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:


In the US map problem, an image map may make sense.

However, there are many more in which an image map doesn't make  
sense. For example, having a graphical menu with an image map,  
having a header image map for links, etc. These would be better done  
using separate images.


Also, sometimes a scripted method might work best. For example, you  
could have each state a different image and different color. Instead  
of having to try to do a crazy 800 point polygon, you could do a  
script where it compares the color under the cursor when you click  
and determines which state you clicked on with high precision.


I'm not saying image maps should never be used... I'm saying that  
you should keep in mind alternatives because image maps are  
frequently abused.


- Christian

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Hassan Schroeder > wrote:

On 10/14/10 1:23 PM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:

If you needed to get more exact, you could use any number of  
Javascript script to get more exact

results.

And all this thrashing about is going to provide a more accessible
solution than an image map?


The exact solution depends on the exact problem.

How about the "exact problem" being the one that image maps were
*designed* to solve? Allowing arbitrary shapes within an image to
be linked to different content? As in the US state example?

--
Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
webtuitive design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com
twitter: @hassan
 dream.  code.



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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Christian Snodgrass]

In the US map problem, an image map may make sense.

However, there are many more in which an image map doesn't make sense. For
example, having a graphical menu with an image map, having a header image
map for links, etc. These would be better done using separate images.

Also, sometimes a scripted method might work best. For example, you could
have each state a different image and different color. Instead of having to
try to do a crazy 800 point polygon, you could do a script where it compares
the color under the cursor when you click and determines which state you
clicked on with high precision.

I'm not saying image maps should never be used... I'm saying that you should
keep in mind alternatives because image maps are frequently abused.

- Christian

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Hassan Schroeder wrote:

> On 10/14/10 1:23 PM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:
>
>  If you needed to get more exact, you could use any number of Javascript
>> script to get more exact
>> results.
>>
>
> And all this thrashing about is going to provide a more accessible
> solution than an image map?
>
>
>  The exact solution depends on the exact problem.
>>
>
> How about the "exact problem" being the one that image maps were
> *designed* to solve? Allowing arbitrary shapes within an image to
> be linked to different content? As in the US state example?
>
> --
> Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
> webtuitive design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com
> twitter: @hassan
>  dream.  code.
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Hassan Schroeder]

On 10/14/10 1:23 PM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:


If you needed to get more exact, you could use any number of Javascript script 
to get more exact
results.


And all this thrashing about is going to provide a more accessible
solution than an image map?


The exact solution depends on the exact problem.


How about the "exact problem" being the one that image maps were
*designed* to solve? Allowing arbitrary shapes within an image to
be linked to different content? As in the US state example?

--
Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
webtuitive design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com
twitter: @hassan
  dream.  code.


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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Christian Snodgrass]

That's something tricky, and it depends exactly how specific you want to
get.

If you wanted to just make sure they were in the main area of the circle,
you could make the image a background image and put an anchor on top, and
position and size it so it takes up as much of the circle without going
outside.

If you needed to get more exact, you could use any number of Javascript
script to get more exact results.

The exact solution depends on the exact problem.

- Christian

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Dan Freeman  wrote:

>  If you use PNG’s and negative margins, this would allow you to piece
> together images, but how would you handle hovering or clicking?  For
> example, if you had a circle image with a transparent background, how would
> you identify hovering or clicking only on the circle piece?
>
>
>
> *Dan Freeman*
>
> Webmaster & ERP Administrator
>
> 800.650.6506 (TOLL FREE)
>
> 330.655.0341 (DIRECT)
>
> www.lexi.com
>
>
>
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Christian Snodgrass
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:59 PM
>
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Image Maps
>
>
>
> You can use transparent images and negative margins.
>
>
> The simplest way to set this up would be to use a program like Fireworks
> (which lets you move stuff around freely and gives you an x and y).
>
> Cut up all of your states into separate images with transparent
> backgrounds.
>
> Then you can bring them all into a Fireworks file, position them properly,
> then use the x and y it gives you to figure out the negative margins for
> them.
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 3:21 PM, cat soul  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Oct 14, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:
>
>
>
>  Basically image maps can be used, but they aren't usually a good idea. A
> better method would be to split it up into separate images and smash them
> together to look like one map. This lets you add alt tags and what-not to
> make it more accessible.
>
>
>
>
>
> In the case of a map of, say, the USA, how would you achieve this smashing
> together, while still having the smashed-together images look like the
> contiguous US of A?
>
>
>
> cs
>
>
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RE: [WSG] Image Maps

[Dan Freeman]

If you use PNG's and negative margins, this would allow you to piece
together images, but how would you handle hovering or clicking?  For
example, if you had a circle image with a transparent background, how
would you identify hovering or clicking only on the circle piece?

 

Dan Freeman

Webmaster & ERP Administrator

800.650.6506 (TOLL FREE)

330.655.0341 (DIRECT)

  www.lexi.com

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Christian Snodgrass
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:59 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Image Maps

 

You can use transparent images and negative margins.

The simplest way to set this up would be to use a program like Fireworks
(which lets you move stuff around freely and gives you an x and y).

Cut up all of your states into separate images with transparent
backgrounds.

Then you can bring them all into a Fireworks file, position them properly,
then use the x and y it gives you to figure out the negative margins for
them.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 3:21 PM, cat soul  wrote:

 

On Oct 14, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:





Basically image maps can be used, but they aren't usually a good idea. A
better method would be to split it up into separate images and smash them
together to look like one map. This lets you add alt tags and what-not to
make it more accessible.

 

 

In the case of a map of, say, the USA, how would you achieve this smashing
together, while still having the smashed-together images look like the
contiguous US of A?

 

cs


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LEXI-COMP CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
The information in this electronic mail is intended for the named 
recipients only.  Any use of this information by anyone other than 
the intended receiver is prohibited.  If the reader of this message is
not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message 
or its attachments is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this 
message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying 
to this electronic e-mail or by calling 330-650-6506.  Please delete 
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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Christian Snodgrass]

You can use transparent images and negative margins.

The simplest way to set this up would be to use a program like Fireworks
(which lets you move stuff around freely and gives you an x and y).

Cut up all of your states into separate images with transparent backgrounds.

Then you can bring them all into a Fireworks file, position them properly,
then use the x and y it gives you to figure out the negative margins for
them.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 3:21 PM, cat soul  wrote:

>
> On Oct 14, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:
>
> Basically image maps can be used, but they aren't usually a good idea. A
> better method would be to split it up into separate images and smash them
> together to look like one map. This lets you add alt tags and what-not to
> make it more accessible.
>
>
>
> In the case of a map of, say, the USA, how would you achieve this smashing
> together, while still having the smashed-together images look like the
> contiguous US of A?
>
> cs
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[cat soul]

On Oct 14, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Christian Snodgrass wrote:

Basically image maps can be used, but they aren't usually a good  
idea. A better method would be to split it up into separate images  
and smash them together to look like one map. This lets you add alt  
tags and what-not to make it more accessible.



In the case of a map of, say, the USA, how would you achieve this  
smashing together, while still having the smashed-together images  
look like the contiguous US of A?


cs

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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Christian Snodgrass]

Can you use an image map?

Yes.

Do people still use image maps?

Yes.

Should you find a better way to implement it?

Absolutely.

Basically image maps can be used, but they aren't usually a good idea. A
better method would be to split it up into separate images and smash them
together to look like one map. This lets you add alt tags and what-not to
make it more accessible.

There are other techniques you could employ as well, depending on your exact
needs.

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Steve Green  wrote:

> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
> On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
> Sent: 14 October 2010 18:56
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Image Maps
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Tom Livingston 
> wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 12:52 PM, David Dorward 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 14 Oct 2010, at 17:27, Tom Livingston wrote:
> >>
> >>> Are image maps still ok?
> >>
> >> Still?
> >>
> >> Server side image maps are as inaccessible as ever.
> >>
> >> Client side image maps had issues last time I looked at them, but
> things might have improved since then.
> >>
> >> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/mapalt.htmlis
> >>  an (oldish)
> resource which describes some of the issues and ways to work around
> them.
> >>
> >> --
> >> David Dorward
> >> http://dorward.me.uk
> >>
> >
> > When I say "ok" I mean "as OK as they can be". And the question may
> > have been better as "Does anyone still use image maps?"
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for the link.
>
> Bandcamp is an indie-artist music store service that allows you to
> design your own storefront, but if you want to link to other sites from
> your header, you have to use an image map. So yes, there are people out
> there still using image maps. I'm one of them. But not by choice.
>
> --
> --
> Christian Montoya
> mappdev.com :: christianmontoya.net
>
>
>
> We have a client who creates e-learning courses for the public sector,
> and they make extensive use of image maps. In most cases, clicking the
> link causes new content to be displayed on the current page rather than
> loading a new page. We keep telling them to implement the feature
> differently but they persist despite all the accessibility problems it
> causes.
>
> Steve Green
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
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RE: [WSG] Image Maps

[Steve Green]

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: 14 October 2010 18:56
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Image Maps

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Tom Livingston 
wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 12:52 PM, David Dorward 
wrote:
>>
>> On 14 Oct 2010, at 17:27, Tom Livingston wrote:
>>
>>> Are image maps still ok?
>>
>> Still?
>>
>> Server side image maps are as inaccessible as ever.
>>
>> Client side image maps had issues last time I looked at them, but
things might have improved since then.
>>
>> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/mapalt.html is an (oldish)
resource which describes some of the issues and ways to work around
them.
>>
>> --
>> David Dorward
>> http://dorward.me.uk
>>
>
> When I say "ok" I mean "as OK as they can be". And the question may 
> have been better as "Does anyone still use image maps?"
>
> Anyway, thanks for the link.

Bandcamp is an indie-artist music store service that allows you to
design your own storefront, but if you want to link to other sites from
your header, you have to use an image map. So yes, there are people out
there still using image maps. I'm one of them. But not by choice.

--
--
Christian Montoya
mappdev.com :: christianmontoya.net



We have a client who creates e-learning courses for the public sector,
and they make extensive use of image maps. In most cases, clicking the
link causes new content to be displayed on the current page rather than
loading a new page. We keep telling them to implement the feature
differently but they persist despite all the accessibility problems it
causes.

Steve Green
Test Partners Ltd


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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Christian Montoya]

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Tom Livingston  wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 12:52 PM, David Dorward  wrote:
>>
>> On 14 Oct 2010, at 17:27, Tom Livingston wrote:
>>
>>> Are image maps still ok?
>>
>> Still?
>>
>> Server side image maps are as inaccessible as ever.
>>
>> Client side image maps had issues last time I looked at them, but things 
>> might have improved since then.
>>
>> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/mapalt.html is an (oldish) resource 
>> which describes some of the issues and ways to work around them.
>>
>> --
>> David Dorward
>> http://dorward.me.uk
>>
>
> When I say "ok" I mean "as OK as they can be". And the question may
> have been better as "Does anyone still use image maps?"
>
> Anyway, thanks for the link.

Bandcamp is an indie-artist music store service that allows you to
design your own storefront, but if you want to link to other sites
from your header, you have to use an image map. So yes, there are
people out there still using image maps. I'm one of them. But not by
choice.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
mappdev.com :: christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[Tom Livingston]

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 12:52 PM, David Dorward  wrote:
>
> On 14 Oct 2010, at 17:27, Tom Livingston wrote:
>
>> Are image maps still ok?
>
> Still?
>
> Server side image maps are as inaccessible as ever.
>
> Client side image maps had issues last time I looked at them, but things 
> might have improved since then.
>
> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/mapalt.html is an (oldish) resource which 
> describes some of the issues and ways to work around them.
>
> --
> David Dorward
> http://dorward.me.uk
>

When I say "ok" I mean "as OK as they can be". And the question may
have been better as "Does anyone still use image maps?"

Anyway, thanks for the link.

-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] Image Maps

[David Dorward]

 
On 14 Oct 2010, at 17:27, Tom Livingston wrote:

> Are image maps still ok?

Still? 

Server side image maps are as inaccessible as ever.

Client side image maps had issues last time I looked at them, but things might 
have improved since then.

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/mapalt.html is an (oldish) resource which 
describes some of the issues and ways to work around them.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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[WSG] Image Maps

[Tom Livingston]

Are image maps still ok?

-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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Re: [WSG] Multiple pseudo class selectors

[tee]

Just some thoughts

1.  :before is not supported by IE7

2.  if :before is supported by IE7.js, Dean Edwards may not anticipated the 
use of multiple selectors in such manner, thus thus the script ignores it.

3.  (Though very unlikely) If you have a set of  group selectors and this 
one is included, it may trigger a grouping selector bug in one of the  IE due 
to unsupported selector.


Maybe this one will work better than IE7.js?
http://selectivizr.com/


Question, has the latest IE7.js improve? The first version worked pretty well 
in IE6 and the upgraded version (from last year or two years ago) was horrible, 
it made IE6 unusable as each (very simple page) took some 30 to 60 seconds 
delay in page load.

tee

On Oct 14, 2010, at 12:49 AM, Grant Bailey wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I was wondering whether it is acceptable CSS to combine pseudo class
> selectors, like this:
> 
> div#div_Navigation ul li:first-child:before {
> ... [STYLES HERE]
> }
> 
> The W3C CSS validator does not complain and my versions of Firefox,
> Chrome, Safari or Opera display the style. Internet Explorer 7 does not
> seem to accept it, however, even with Dean Edwards' IE7.js script
> activated (see http://code.google.com/p/ie7-js/).
> 
> I would be grateful if anyone could advise whether they have been able
> to get multiple pseudo class selectors working in Internet Explorer.
> 
> Many thanks and regards,
> 
> Grant Bailey



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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest

[Carbis, Che]

Thanks for your email,

I am travelling interstate and will have limited access to email.

If you are a client of Hitwise and require imediate technical assistance, 
please contact our support team support...@hitwise.com.

Otherwise I will respond to your email as soon as I can

Regards,

Ché Carbis
Director - Client Services


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[WSG] Multiple pseudo class selectors

[Grant Bailey]

Hello,

I was wondering whether it is acceptable CSS to combine pseudo class
selectors, like this:

div#div_Navigation ul li:first-child:before {
... [STYLES HERE]
}

The W3C CSS validator does not complain and my versions of Firefox,
Chrome, Safari or Opera display the style. Internet Explorer 7 does not
seem to accept it, however, even with Dean Edwards' IE7.js script
activated (see http://code.google.com/p/ie7-js/).

I would be grateful if anyone could advise whether they have been able
to get multiple pseudo class selectors working in Internet Explorer.

Many thanks and regards,

Grant Bailey



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