Re: [WSG] Input Desired
The current redesign and css file: http://teagarden.biz/newindex.htmhttp://teagarden.biz/newindex.htm http://teagarden.biz/teagard3.csshttp://teagarden.biz/teagard3.css I'm having a lot of problems with margins and incorporating other dimensional concepts into the site. I welcome all comments. Thx A few quick impressions and suggestions: Add a doctype declaration at the top [1] Validate your html [2] and css [3] For margins and such, start with PIE [4] I find the text (particularly in the side navigation) too small I'd prefer a sans serif font for the nav links and for the text in your header There is not enough contrast between the link text colour and the background Note that Samuel's comment about changing br to br / will depend on your doctype choice. If you go with html then those can stay how they are. However, you might want to create the spacing and effects you desire through your css, rather than manipulating your code for presentational purposes. (I'm on a Mac using Firefox 1.07, btw) Cheers, Damian [1] http://htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/doctype.html [2] http://validator.w3.org/ [3] http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ [4] http://www.positioniseverything.net/ -- -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Hi Andy, Great look and feel. I like the font sizes, they're refreshingly readable. One wierd issue though. In Firefox on Debian (sarge), trying to use the mousewheel dies half way down the page. I usually only encounter problems like this with things like google ads and flash animations, but with those if I move the mouse away and resume using the wheel it works. With clearleft I can't continue to scroll at all with the wheel until I move the vertical scroll bar manually. It's a small issue to be sure, but if anyone can figure it out, I guess it would be the 'web-design supergroup' ;-). I'll check the behaviour on my Mac at work when I get in. Just went to check in a couple of other browsers - Opera is fine, but the site dropped off the radar when trying to test in anything else. Cheers, Damian We've just launched our new company website, and would love your feedback. http://www.clearleft.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Verb this link (WAS Click here--reference)
This thread has got me thinking. If verbs are not the go in link text, where does that leave us with 'skip to' links at the beginning of a page? Should we just use 'main content' or 'navigation/menu'? Also, Richard. The text sounds more passive because I've put it in the passive voice. You can nominalise [1] most phrases to put them into the passive, however, this does change the emphasis, as you mentioned. If we want links to be incorporated into the flow of the language and make sense out of context then should we be constrained to a particular style of writing to achieve this? Still open minded about this, just curious what others are thinking. Cheers, Damian [1] http://unilearning.uow.edu.au/academic/3b.html Hey Damian, Very valid point! It's not too difficult to turn a verb into an adjective. Somehow, though, reading your example I get the feeling that it's a very passive voice to read in. It almost *feels* like: Here's the Registration Form (which by the way you can also fill in). What else would you do with an online form? You could print it, but again 'print' (and 'register') seem to be different verbs to 'complete' and 'fill in'. They sound like context-specific Tasks rather than simply actions. In which case, I'd probably want to use the verb as the link text - it seems more forceful (at least from a marketing perspective) and there's absolutely no confusion as to what you are being asked to do: Register! Don't just look at the registration form and decide whether or not to. In response to Christian's claim - sorry but no one said we were abandoning the title attribute at all! This is a question of usability, rather than accessibility. R :o) -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Apparently it's a Firefox bug relating to overflow:auto. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97283 Ah, cool. Site is fine in latest Firefox on OS X. Just went to check in a couple of other browsers - Opera is fine, but the site dropped off the radar when trying to test in anything else. Um, do you mean that the site doesn't work in any other browser other than Opera or Firefox? Can I ask what you tested it on? Sorry, my bad. I should have been clearer. The site failed to load from about 3:30am Melbourne for a couple of hours. Can't remember when it came back, but when it did the site worked well on other browsers. Cheers, Damian -- -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
I haven't made up my mind about verbs in links yet, but a counter example to yours Richard: However, for pages where you're asked to register for a conference, for example, there's no way you'd put: Register for the http://www.forbesconferences.com/?page=registerForbes Conference. How about: Fill in the a href=http://www.forbesconferences.com/?page=register;Forbes Conference Registration Form/a. Damian -- -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish nav moving page background image
Seems fine here in FF on Mac. The flyouts cause a horizontal toolbar to appear which makes the vertical one increase, but no jumping backgrounds. Damian Make sure you shrink the browser width down so that the flyouts would cause vertical scrollbars. I have an odd problem with my page background image jumping, when certain nodes on the suckerfish nav are hovered over. The site is here: http://media.compliance.org.au/home.asp If you hover over the last 2 nodes (specifically, Resources Shop, FAQ) with your browser width set to just bit wider than the actual site (with the CENTERED layout style set) you'll notice the whole page background image jump. It looks like it's trying to stay centered with the content of the page, which is logical I suppose, but unfortunate. Happens in IE and FF. The only fix I've come up with is to set the last 2 nodes to fly left, but I'd rather make the page background stay put without altering my nav. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish nav moving page background image
There's a js style switcher on the page at the top right for those with better ideas than mine: How about moving the background image info from the body to the #container in layout-centre.css? Damian G'day Here's a screenshot of what I'm experiencing http://media.compliance.org.au/data/jumpy_bkg.gif Note that you also need to have the page set to the centered layout for it to happen. Uhmmm. What do you mean with have the page set to the centered layout? Is this some obscure browser option or plug-in? I do get the jumping horizontal scrollbar, which is a direct effect of the content expanding with the long text on submenu items. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility, the possibilities
With cache cleared and connected directly to the internet I started to suspect some dns shenanigans. I get Rick and Peter's behaviour from my home box, but from my work machine I see things differently. Try http://69.93.55.164/topics/userscience/accessibility/ Cheers, Damian On 8/22/05 10:18 PM Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: I get a 404 for http://www.alistapart.com/topics/accessibility/ Works for me. and a page full of articles for http://www.alistapart.com/topics/userscience/accessibility/ 404 Okay, now everybody immediately clear caches and turn off proxy and try again, okay? :-) Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Accessibility, the possibilities
Hmm, alistapart is back with a funky new design and structure alistapart has many articles on accesibility http://www.alistapart.com/topics/accessibility/ should be: http://www.alistapart.com/topics/userscience/accessibility/ Damian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Accessibility, the possibilities
Well, this is curious. I get a 404 for http://www.alistapart.com/topics/accessibility/ and a page full of articles for http://www.alistapart.com/topics/userscience/accessibility/ Can anyone break this deadlock? Damian From: Damian Sweeney Hmm, alistapart is back with a funky new design alistapart has many articles on accesibility http://www.alistapart.com/topics/accessibility/ should be: http://www.alistapart.com/topics/userscience/accessibility/ Damian, Your link gave me a 404. I'm really not sure what you are on about. My link works http://www.alistapart.com/topics/accessibility/ -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Hi Ted, I would say let the user decide. Wherever possible I try to provide enough information in the link itself so that the user knows what to expect and can proceed as they wish. Many people will set up their browser to deal with different file types according to their preference (open the document in the browser, open it in the application, download the file). Opening in a new window removes user choice. By providing a plain link you give users the option that you use of `right-click - open in new window`. How do I choose to open a new-window-link in the current window if that is my preference? The only time I open links (to web pages) in a new window is when I have to place a link inside someone else's frame and I warn the user that I'm doing it. I wouldn't use a new window for the downloadable documents you are referring to. Unexpected pdfs are annoying, especially for low-bandwidth users. So, I would recommend something like: a href=document.pdfSome stuff (pdf format, 200kb)/a Include all the info in the link, if you can, for people who only read the links. Cheers, Damian Hi All We've had a discussion at work about pdf documents and hijacking the user's browser / making it more user-friendly. What is the general feeling towards having pdf and other non-html documents open in a new window? -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning The DOM
How much JavaScript do you know? Next to none. What kind of things about DOM Scripting need clarifying? Potential pitfalls, how browser support differs and what constitutes 'behaviour'. Do you want to see examples of cool stuff with a kind of DOM Scripting for dummies style explanation or more sober articles with a more geeky leaning? Geek me up. Please share your personal experiences: what's your skill level with JavaScript compared to say, CSS or XHTML? What's your opinion of JavaScript? I'm reasonably confident with XHTML and CSS, but haven't really touched JavaScript yet. It's looming as an important aspect of my work, so I want to use it the 'right' way from the start. In the past I've frowned on JavaScript often because the sites that relied on it annoyed me. Now I think it has good applications for accessibility and seems more robust. It will always be 'icing on the cake' for our site, though, because we still support browsers (and users) who don't deal with it. The answers you give will really, really help determine the direction that the Task Force takes. I look forward to it. Thanks in advance for the effort. Damian Thanks, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] HR - Presentation or Structure?
I don't think anyone here is arguing for HTML to be not accessible, but I feel what Mike may be trying to point out is that visual design can be an important part of the meaning. Then you are teaching/presenting material in the visual register and therefore presenting inherently inaccessible material. What you then need to do is transform the material. MathML is a classic example of this. Correct! http://www.ozewai.org/2004/presentations/smith.doc (Essentially, a big equation can be broken down into component parts. This can make it easier for blind users to read the equation and for sighted users to understand the equation. The equation is the same, it is just constructed in a more accessible form.) It is accessible (except that for visual browsers it will only work on modern browsers) in that it can be interpreted by screen readers. It is not accessible until you realign the original material so that it is not constructed purely for the visual register. In so many ways we must ensure that our content is as accessible as possible but it is wishful thinking to assume it is equally accessible or that one medium (vision) is not favoured over another. Yes the technology (HTML) does not favour it but human practice of communication does. It is not the human practice of communication, but the assumptions we make when authoring the material in the first place - even before it gets to the web. Cheers, Damian -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] HR - Presentation or Structure?
Grant replies: Well, no. MathML by its nature is not purely for the visual register. And no - we should not have to realign a complex formula if the materials merit it because what we are doing then is making the content less accessible/comprehensible for many people to allow it to be equally accessible to all. If breaking the formula up into little chunks makes comprehension harder for the vast majority of people then we should not do it and I do not agree with your assertion that breaking a complex formula will make it more understandable - it may in fact undermine the learning. In most learning materials complexity builds throughout the learning. Breaking the formula into smaller chunks made it easier for all learners to comprehend (not stated explicitly in the paper, but mentioned at the conference). We should be very wary of dumbing down content in the name of accessibility. Accessibility is a continuum not an absolute and we often have to make judgement calls that balance the interests of one group of people against another. Equally accessible doesn't exist. As accessible as possible is a fine aim. I'm not saying we should change the formula or dumb it down. The information inherent in the equation remains the same, but as with many aspects of accessibility, by transforming it we can make it easier for everyone. For me accessibility starts before we create the content, not after. I'm not saying it's easy, but my experience has been that accessible design from the ground up results in better content, not worse. Cheers, Damian -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html nowrap question
Hi Ted, The nowrap attribute is not a valid Strict element (either in HTML or XHTML doctypes). It is a valid attribute in both HTML 4 and XHTML 1.0 Transitional doctypes. However, in XHTML it must have a value (nowrap=nowrap). This combination is still valid HTML 4 Transitional. I'd suggest using td nowrap=nowrap in preparation for your move to XHTML 1.0 Transitional. When you're ready to move to CSS you can start styling these td elements to avoid wrapping and then remove the attribute altogether (in preparation for your future move to Strict :-) ). Cheers, Damian Hi All I'm working on some old pages and trying to make them as valid as possible. We are not ready to begin changing the CSS yet, so I need to keep attributes correct at the html level. Here's my question. What is the proper way to put nowrap in a td? It currently looks like td nowrap I would think it should be td nowrap=nowrap or something like that. The pages are currently html with no doctype. I'm hoping to shift them to XHTML 1.0 transitional soon and prepare them for future conversion to CSS layout. It's an enormous site, which explains the slow progress. Thanks Ted ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] alt tags and image captions
-Original Message- From: Hope Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 4 June 2005 12:40 PM To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] alt tags and image captions Having never seen/heard a screen reader in action, I am uncertain about how to make some aspects of coding user-friendly for those using screen readers. If you have got Windows XP or Windows 2000 you should have a screenreader (Narrator) installed. In my case I find it under Programs Accessories Accessiblity Narrator. It's not as good as Jaws, but probably enough to get an idea of how they work. Another option, especially for those of us not used to hearing web sites, is the Fangs extension to Firefox. This gives a text version of what Jaws (the most widely used screen reading software) would say aloud. I find this a much easier way to deal with developing for screen readers. I have used a screen reader to test my site and it was difficult. Specifically, I find my alt tags are almost always the same as my captions. For example, if I insert an image of Joe Smith, my code might look something like this: pimg src=images/joe_smith.jpg alt=Joe Smith //p p class=photocaptionJoe Smith/p Does the screen reader read, Joe Smith Joe Smith? Yeah, they will repeat it. If I remember correctly they will read something like Image Joe Smith, Joe Smith. Fangs: Graphic Joe Smith Joe Smith If so, I would have thought that this repetition would get very annoying especially if there are a lot of images on the page. I guess it would be a bit repetitive. With an alt tag you generally write what can be seen in the image. Joe Smith doesn't really tell me whether the image you have is a photo of Joe Smith, Joe Smith the cartoon character, or a signature of Joe Smith. So to be a bit more specific you would probably write into the alt tag Photo of Joe Smith. Depending on the purpose of the photo, you might even have more detail in the alt tag: Photo of Joe Smith at the last accounting conference. This is certainly true for photos. For other images (logos, etc) they often have another semantic meaning in the page. A corporate logo for example is often also a link to the home page. In this case I wouldn't use 'my company logo', but rather 'my corporate home page'. Fangs: Graphic link my corporate home page If the image adds nothing to the meaning of the page, either put it in your css as a background-image or include an empty alt tag img alt= Hope this helps. likewise, Damian Andreas Boehmer User Experience Consultant Phone: (03) 9386 8907 Mobile: (0411) 097 038 http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a elements and what they can contain
re: a elements may only contain other inline elements hang on, so if i have an anchor tag wrapped around an image (display:inline by default), its deemed fine by the validator, but if I make that image display:block via the css, (for design purposes, which must be a pretty common practice on many, many sites - including many i've designed) would that practice be frowned upon if the validator could validate your markup *and* the corresponding css at the same time? possibly some bigger questions there - one being, why shouldnt you be able to wrap a anchor around a block level element? i know the difference between inline and block, and the fact that block elements cant be inside inline elements - but this particular anchor question seems a bit shakey pete You should use the markup that makes sense without styles in the first instance, IMHO. The choice to use display:block is rarely a structural one and is usually presentational. Therefore display:block the content of your a tags to your heart's content (or should that be main content?). As to your question about a tags for block level elements, can you give an example when you would use this? I haven't come across one yet, but I'd be curious if there is a need. Cheers, Damian -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] why doesn't this validate with w3c.org and what to do about it
I have some comments within my CSS to let me or anyone else know what
is controlling what
eg:
/*aligns list in middle of page*/
p.middle{test-align:center}
'test' this:
p.middle{text-align:center}
validation doesn't like this.is there a fix? or should I just ignore???
TIA
--
::Bruce::
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--
Damian Sweeney
Learning Skills Adviser (online)
Language and Learning Skills Unit
Instructional Designer, AIRport Project
Equity, Language and Learning Programs
University of Melbourne
723 Swanston St
Parkville 3010
www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/
www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/
airport.unimelb.edu.au/
ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039
This email and any attachments may contain personal information or
information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of
copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of
it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or
any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any
attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this
email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return
email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370.
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**
Re: [WSG] frames
I can´t see other way to create a chat page without frames. This is the only (IMHO) thing I use frames. Of course, there are many ways to use it, as evil ways, but in a chat you got to have two frames, at least: one where you put the form, and another where you read the messages. This one you have to put a meta tag with auto refresh, or a javascript with a timeout function to update the page and let your user know what is going on. And the other the form where your user will send the message. I use AChat (http://atutor.ca/achat/index.php) to chat with my partner during the day. I think it's a nice implementation of frames. The version I use isn't standards compliant (this may have changed), but it handles focus very well and is produced by people who know their accessibility backwards (the Adaptive Technology Resource Centre at the University of Toronto). Damian I have tried many ways to do it without frames, but, in this case, frames fit perfectly. Cheers, Francisco. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid blockquote scenarios?
Roger Johansson wrote: Unless I'm misreading the W3C Recommendation, blockquote elements can only have block-level content. That makes the second example incorrect. From http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2 : So yes, the p (or some other block-level element) is necessary, and it goes inside the blockquote element. Have a look: http://grabun.com/tmp/block-no-p.html Valid Transitional, but not Strict (1.0). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The mother of all html references?
I quite like the simplicity of http://htmlhelp.org/. It has a nice list of html 4.0 tags and you can hide deprecated ones. It also has a css reference, but unfortunately it's also not up to date. Damian I've been using this online html reference (http://www.htmlreference.com/) for the past 6 months or so, and so far it's been fine. Can anyone recommend another on-line reference that they prefer so I can take a look? Cole -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Weird CSS validation issue
Granted, it's weird. What happens if you separate the media declarations? I say that because I noticed a long list of warnings half way down related to a particular media type (not sure which one). It might be that the validator is balking at some styles even though they are valid for the screen. Or maybe it's parsing its own parse tree because there's more than one media? Damian Hey all, I'm still fairly new to CSS and wanted to validate my CSS before asking some advice from this group, but I keep getting weird errors ONLY when I validate the online CSS file. I'm using the W3C CSS Validation Service: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ I can validate my local copy of the CSS file and receive no errors, however when I try and validate my online version, it has errors everywhere. Actually, I didn't think the items that it's reporting were errors. For example, I'm using % for font-size - but it doesn't like this. It also fails on my shorthand hex colours (ie. #000 instead of #00). The XHTML file validates fine, both locally and online. Here's the relevant addresses: http://www.lakemac.com.au/new/default.htmhttp://www.lakemac.com.au/new/default.htm http://www.lakemac.com.au/new/css/screen_home.csshttp://www.lakemac.com.au/new/css/screen_home.css What am I doing wrong? Thanks in advance for your help. Best Regards, Paul Hempsall Web Developer Lake Macquarie City Council Tel: (02) 4921 0713 Fax: (02) 4958 7257 Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.lakemac.com.au/http://www.lakemac.com.au This information is intended for the addressee only. The use, copying or distribution of this message or any information it contains, by anyone other than the addressee is prohibited by the sender. Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Council. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sometimes you just cant help people ...
I still use the 'skip' so as to convey that the link is within the page. Similar logic applies to 'Back/Return to top'. Is my logic flawed in this regard? What do usability gurus out there think? Damian In discussion's I've been involved in, the best link text describes the link's destination, not the action it takes -- this is pretty much how most other navigation works. So skip to content = main content main content is preferred because it gets pronounced properly by screen readers. I describe accesskeys in an accessibility page, and don't bother markingup or styling them in any way to exposed them to users. I use content generation in my own user stylesheet to see them. Using the title attribute to descibe the accesskey is a good idea. Terrence Wood. snip / ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site critique please
I like the design. You're getting a couple of CSS validation errors. Also, I think you should be consistent in the positioning of your main menu. If you need the left column for sub-navigation inside the site, then use the horizontal style on the home page as well. Damian Hi everyone Would very much appreciate feedback as to any problems or mistakes. Thank you. www.mwg.green.net.au/testpages/mwgindex.html Lyn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Positioning text
Try z-index: http://www.w3schools.com/css/pr_pos_z-index.asp Damian I am trying to get the graphic logo (CRF logo above) in my header to be positioned behind the grapic and between (CRF) and This is some text for testing purposes. Does anyone have any ideas? Thank you. HTML: http://www.choroideremia.org/New/CRFHeader.htm CSS: http://www.choroideremia.org/New/CRF_css1.css Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page: http://members.shaw.ca/dabneyadfm Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] problem with print style sheet
Works here. I printed to pdf using Firefox 1.0PR on Mac OS X. The resulting file can be found at: http://members.iinet.net.au/~damianfs/KDPV.pdf What software is giving you this problem? Damian Hello, I'm working on a site (http://www.cdkd.be/nl/home.phphttp://www.cdkd.be/nl/home.php) and there is a problem with one of the pages if you want to print. If you print the following page: http://www.cdkd.be/nl/participatie.phphttp://www.cdkd.be/nl/participatie.php. You will see the titel on the first page, white space and the following text on the second page. The other pages on the site are printing fine. Can someone help me? Greetings! Bram Janssens ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Height in IE6 for Windows
have redesigned a header for a web page. Firefox 1.0 displays the HTML and
CSS just what I am trying to achieve. However, IE6 ignores the height in
#logowrapper {. Why? And how do I fix it? Thank you.
HTML: http://www.choroideremia.org/HNew/CRFHeader.htm
I get a 404 error on this URL and can't guess the right page.
Again?
Damian
CSS: http://www.choroideremia.org/New/CRF_css1.css
Angus MacKinnon
MacKinnon Crest Saying
Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
Web page: http://members.shaw.ca/dabneyadfm
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc.
http://www.choroideremia.org
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Height in IE6 for Windows
Damian HTML: http://www.choroideremia.org/HNew/CRFHeader.htm I get a 404 error on this URL and can't guess the right page. Sorry. I should check my typing. HTML: http://www.choroideremia.org/New/CRFHeader.htm CSS: http://www.choroideremia.org/New/CRFHeader.htm IE is not your only issue. Safari has only a thin line (apparently ignoring the min-height setting) above the h1 making it unreadable. Damian Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page: http://members.shaw.ca/dabneyadfm Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Height in IE6 for Windows
Damian I took out the min-height: out. Does that make any change? HTML: http://www.choroideremia.org/New/CRFHeader.htm CSS: http://www.choroideremia.org/New/CRF_css1.css This now looks broken in Firefox (image smaller and too high) and the image doesn't display at all in Safari. You've also now got height: 4empx in the logowrapper definition. Damian ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Help with fieldset in a li
Thanks to Susan, Steven and Roger for the replies so far. A couple of questions for clarification: * If no fieldset is used for the individual questions, how does a screen reader associate the question with the radio group? The label will differentiate the options, but what about the questions? * It sounds like a long legend is a bad idea - correct? * In a page where there is only one form and one semantically linked set of form controls is a fieldset necessary/desirable? * If fieldsets are nested, how does a screen reader handle the legends? Are they concatenated for each form control or is only the legend from the parent fieldset used? Cheers, Damian One benefit of using fieldset and legend for screen reader users is that nearly all readers will read the legend before every input label within a fieldset. This can be very helpful with forms that require the same information within different sections of the form. For example, if you need put in name, phone number etc for a number of different people, the form input labels for each person will be the same - the layout of the form may make the different sections of the form obvious for visual users of the site, but the difference may not be obvious if you can't see. However, when you use fieldset and legend (with say a legend of purchaser for one person) then the reader will read the labels within this fieldset as purchaser name, purchaser phone number etc. An article with some more information about form accessibility can be found at http://www.usability.com.au/resources/forms.cfm Hope this is helpful Roger -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Susan R. Grossman Sent: Friday, 29 October 2004 1:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Help with fieldset in a li Firstly, am I using fieldset and legend in the correct semantic manner? My understanding is that fieldset is meant to group all the similar form elements together, not to diferentiate each input.A group of numbered questions are all related to each other, and the entire thing should be in one fieldset with one legend. If you were to add a second group of numbered questions starting the numbers over again because they are related to each other, but not to the first group of numbered questions, then you would use a second fieldset and legend. (a new one, not nested) At least this is how I've interepreted and used the fieldset. An everyday example is a login form. The fieldset goes around the username and password text boxes as well as the radio button for remembering your password, with the legend on the login text. Any other fields like submitting for a lost password would be in a separate fieldset with new legend of forgotten password. -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Damian Sweeney Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Help with fieldset in a li
In a page where there is only one form and one semantically linked set of form controls is a fieldset necessary/desirable? I think while desirable it is not necessary, unless you have a radio button or checkbox group. But why not use the fieldset element to structure the form instead of putting in a div or some other container? remeber the legend is optional. The main reason for using an ol is that this is a well-established convention for questionnaires and helps to structure the feedback for responses (which is often per question for my purposes). Also, I would have thought that modern screen readers would be able to group radio and checkbox groups based on name attributes. Is this not the case? Anyway, based on the responses I'm currently thinking I'll do things this way: http://members.iinet.net.au/~damianfs/sample2.html where the fieldset only encloses the radio buttons in a group. This fixes the positioning problem for the list items in Firefox and IE and seems semantically sound to me. No legends are used. Thanks again for the excellent responses, Damian -- Damian Sweeney Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Review Request
Regarding skip to content links, I found this article recently about usability testing of screen reader users: http://www.stcsig.org/usability/newsletter/0304-observing.html In particular under the 'Many want to skip the navigation, but don't use that feature' section: Some developers have used the phrase Skip to Content instead of Skip Navigation. Good idea. But it does not work because content in English can be a noun or an adjective. JAWS reads it here as an adjective with the accent on the second syllable. So it does not make sense to users. A solution that does seem to work is Skip to Main Content. JAWS reads that correctly as the noun content with the accent on the first syllable. Cheers, Damian I like it. Clean and simple. IMO, you should include a skip to content link for the screen readers. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter Daniel Bowling wrote: Hello, I would greatly appreciate any feedback for my personal site regarding design, standards compliance, usability and general code quality. http://www.danbowling.com Thank you for your time, Dan Bowling W: http://www.danbowling.com -- Damian Sweeney Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
