[WSG] Question - th appearing in scope of another th
Title: Question - th appearing in scope of another th Hi all, I'm not sure how to word this so might make no sense at all... :) ...I've never been sure what the context of a table cell is which is following more than one th in the same scope. When a new th appears, does it append to the previous header? Or replace/start again the context of it's scope? Is it something that is/can be affected by use of tbody's possibly? Or should this never occur and the structure of the data be rethought? Here's a rough example; table summary=appropriate summary captionAppropriate Caption/caption thead tr th scope=colA1/th /tr /thead tbody tr tdB1/td /tr tr th scope=colC1/th /tr tr tdD1/td /tr /tbody /table In this example, what's the scope/context of D1? Is it header C1? Or a A1+C1? Hope this makes sense, thanks Jamie Mason : Design Skybet.com http://www.skysports.com/ , Central House, Beckwith Knowle, Otley Road, Harrogate, HG3 1UF T: (01423) 700805
RE: [SPAM] - RE: [WSG] Question - th appearing in scope of anot her th - Email found in subject
Title: RE: [SPAM] - RE: [WSG] Question - th appearing in scope of another th - Email found in subject Thanks Pat, What I'm asking is not how to do something, but what the header of the D1 td is represented as being in that situation - given it's in the path of 2 ths. Is A1 disregarded in place of C1, or is it's header read as being A1+C1. Sorry if I'm confusing everyone, there's been a couple of times this has cropped up though. Thanks for your time, Jamie Mason http://www.skybet.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Patrick Lauke Sent: 17 February 2006 11:54 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [SPAM] - RE: [WSG] Question - th appearing in scope of another th - Email found in subject Jamie Mason When a new th appears, does it append to the previous header? Or replace/start again the context of it's scope? Is it something that is/can be affected by use of tbody's possibly? Or should this never occur and the structure of the data be rethought? I may be wrong, but I'd suspect that this is the level at which you need to start using headers attributes. Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005.
Title: RE: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content ...ooops :) This is the best thing I've learnt this year now too!! Thanks a lot, ...and a general thanks to the people of this discussion list also. I read WSG most days of the year and post every now and then. You've all helped me a lot (without realising I should think) and I've learnt loads this year through this and other sources, I appreciate it a lot that the WSG is available. Have a great December break, Jamie Mason Skybet.com -Original Message- From: Terrence Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 21 December 2005 21:22 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Best Web Standards thing I learnt in 2005. The best web standards thing I learnt in 2005 is: How to best use the summary attribute for screen reader users: The summary attribute is best used to describe the structure of the table, not to summarise it's content. A longer summary is better according to actual screen reader user testing. How do you know if your summary works, if you don't have any screen reader users to test with? You need two people, someone to read the summary and someone to draw the table. Read your summary aloud and see what the other person draws. If the result resembles your table then you are on the right track =) Example from complex financial table: summary=There are 8 columns. Column 1 names the appropriation and labels the row or rowgroup. Columns 2 through 5 report the numbers for 2004/5, where column 2 is Budgeted Annual, column 3 is Budgeted Other, column 4 is Estimated Actual Annual, column 5 is Estimated Actual Other. Columns 6 through 7 report the numbers for 2005/6 where column 6 is Vote Annual, column 7 is Vote Other. Column 8 contains narrative on the scope of the appropriation. Rows are grouped by appropriation type. (yep.. rowgroup is jargon, but most people got it... you could say group of rows) HTH, please share your discovery in 2005. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] British Broadcasting Corporation Accessibility Site
Title: British Broadcasting Corporation Accessibility Site Hi all, This is great, well worth reading; http://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/win/sub_root.shtml This in particular is absolutely new to me, I'm very curious about it; There is also symbol browser software called Communicate: Webwide (previously called ' Webwise' ) that was launched in 2004 which helps makes pages easier to read - http://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/win/language/learning/symbol.shtml Jamie Mason: Design // Skybet.com http://www.skysports.com/ , Central House, Beckwith Knowle, Otley Road, Harrogate, HG3 1UF
RE: [WSG] Altering a Valid (X)HTML with DHTML = Is it still REAL LY valid?
Title: RE: [WSG] Altering a Valid (X)HTML with DHTML = Is it still REAL LY valid? Fantastic, thanks a lot Ben that makes a lot of sense. Best Regards, Jamie Mason Skybet.com -Original Message- From: Ben Curtis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 14 November 2005 17:57 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Altering a Valid (X)HTML with DHTML = Is it still REAL LY valid? It's a tricky one How? If a tree falls in a wood and no-one hears it - does it still make a noise? Well, it is tricky one. It certainly makes some air waves, ... So, kidding aside, invalid is invalid. Except that validity is a concept that can only be applied to documents. Is the document valid? Yes. QED? Nope. It's tricky. Once the document is parsed, the W3C is very clear on the matter: how these data, nodes, etc., are represented in the internal memory structure of the client application is entirely up to the vendors -- and I can pretty well assure you that they all do it differently. However, they must maintain the DOM API, which is designed to work in specific ways. These ways will permit an in-memory structure of nodes and attributes that could only be derived from an invalid document if they were wholly derived from a document; the DOM API permits them, so they are valid internal structures. So, validity cannot be applied to the in-memory document, once parsed. But, of critical importance is that if a variety of vendors do things differently, and the only thing linking them together is the validity of the source document. Straying from the interpretation of that document means you are possibly venturing into areas where the vendors disagree. It's not a validity issue; it's a compatibility issue. And, given the confluence of specs involved (HTML, XML, CSS, DOM), there ought to be plenty of guaranteed-compatible room outside of what would come from valid documents. But staying valid would be easier, I should think, though easier is not always the primary concern. Is it REALLY valid? To sum up my position: it's like asking if a deep blue sky with little puffy clouds if REALLY sweet? Sweet, in this case, has nothing directly to do with sugar, but how we humans react to sugar. Valid is a term that does not directly apply to the in-memory data structure; it is, nevertheless, a helpful and analogous concept to keep in mind. And it helps keep your code sweet. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] UDM navigation issues with standards and validity
Title: RE: [WSG] UDM navigation issues with standards and validity You have to place an iframe at the same size one z-index layer lower than the menu to fix this: look at the tipfix() script I've done at www.skybet.com, it applies itself to my green tooltip script ttip(). Hope this helps, Jamie Mason www.skybet.com -Original Message- From: Townson, Chris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 15 November 2005 11:24 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] UDM navigation issues with standards and validity I need some information on UDM (http://www.udm4.com/) navigation as a web standard navigation. The reason I am looking into this is the need to resolve issues with drop-down menus go behind select field in IE. As some of us knows that there are inherent flaws/problems with IE Window controls like select fields like drop-down list. The standard Suckerfish drop-down menu (which I normally use) or any other CSS-based menus does not work in this situation. Any information or assistance is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
RE: [WSG] Altering a Valid (X)HTML with DHTML = Is it still REAL LY valid?
Title: RE: [WSG] Altering a Valid (X)HTML with DHTML = Is it still REAL LY valid? Hi all, Thanks a lot for your feedback so far, I'm going to wait for Pat Lauke's full feedback before I respond, unless that recent one was it? Regards, Jamie Mason Skybet.com -Original Message- From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 11 November 2005 13:43 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org; Rimantas Liubertas Subject: Re: [WSG] Altering a Valid (X)HTML with DHTML = Is it still REAL LY valid? Quoting Rimantas Liubertas [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So, kidding aside, invalid is invalid. Right, as far as generating completely new invalid elements/nodes, I'll agree completely. However, in my view it gets muddy when we're talking about just adding additional attributes to an existing node. Once the XHTML has been loaded into the browser and the DOM been built internally, I don't see a major problem with creating new *attributes* for each of the nodes, either as a way of storing script information related to that node (i.e. use it as a variable container) or as a pragmatic way to get certain non-compliant things to work properly (for instance, that whole autocompletion debacle that I think sparked this separate thread). Should it be done at all? Possibly not, but it's less evil in my mind than doing horrid things like converting a valid document into a completely invalid mess with wrongly nested elements, unclosed tags, etc -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Altering a Valid (X)HTML with DHTML = Is it still REALLY valid?
Title: Altering a Valid (X)HTML with DHTML = Is it still REALLY valid? Hi all, I was looking at the source of the Fisheye demo after reading about it here on WSG - hoping it would be valid. It contains it's own made up attributes which devalidate the code. So then I thought fine, I'll just take them out the source and write them in with _javascript_ onload instead, making sure it degrades well. But that's where I thought, is that REALLY valid? It'll pass at the W3C validator but my generated source is going to be invalid. Screen readers in my fairly limited understanding (sorry, I'm still young and learning :) ) don't use _javascript_ so *should* be ok right? Which groups of users would be affected by this? Respectfully, and thanks in advance. Jamie Mason Skybet.com
[WSG] Improvement on Flash Satay
http://www.blatek.co.uk/blateksatay/ I quite like it, what do you think?
[WSG] Browser hijacking for usability
Title: Browser hijacking for usability Hi All, I've had an idea recently I wanted to ask about, as it's slightly shady, but I think it has some value. I'm near the end of a redesign and am working on the help section currently, there's some troubleshooting advice on pop-ups, which although don't really apply anymore due to my removing them and/or using accessible popup code, am keeping the articles for... ...I've been thinking about whether it would help to automatically fix these problems by using registry keys, for example. - start contents of a registry file -- REGEDIT4 [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\New Windows\Allow\] *.yourdomainaddress.com=hex: - end contents of a registry file -- ...Would add your site to the allow list for pop ups in ie. This and other browsing problems could potentially be fixed very easily. I like this because users just run the file and they're away, but I'm cringing in the same way you probably are when reading..it all feels a bit shady doesn't it? What do you think? Jamie Mason: Design // Skysports.com http://www.skysports.com/ , Central House, Beckwith Knowle, Otley Road, Harrogate, HG3 1UF
RE: [WSG] Browser hijacking for usability
Title: RE: [WSG] Browser hijacking for usability Hi All, Agreed! *throws idea towards the bin* Cheers! Jamie
[WSG] absolute positioning, objects inputs
Title: absolute positioning, objects inputs http://www.engineerrecords.com/abspos.htm This page is a quick example, it's got form inputs and a flash file with nothing done to them, then OVER THE TOP of that, is a blue absolutely positioned div. In IE - The select appears above the div In Mozilla - The flash appears above the div Does anyone know a decent way around this?
[WSG] RE: absolute positioning, objects inputs - FIXED
Title: RE: absolute positioning, objects inputs - FIXED Sorry, cancel that! Have fixed it, you have to place an iframe directly below the absolutely positioned div on a lower z-index to fix selects showing through in IE. http://www.engineerrecords.com/abspos2.htm In my case (not the example above) I need _javascript_ to dynamically set it's x,y,width and height, but the above will fix it. I read that for flash in mozilla you have to set wmode=transparent. Jamie Mason -Original Message- From: Jamie Mason Sent: 07 June 2005 10:05 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: absolute positioning, objects inputs http://www.engineerrecords.com/abspos.htm This page is a quick example, it's got form inputs and a flash file with nothing done to them, then OVER THE TOP of that, is a blue absolutely positioned div. In IE - The select appears above the div In Mozilla - The flash appears above the div Does anyone know a decent way around this?
[WSG] realistic placement of 'high contrast' 'text too small?' links?
Title: realistic placement of 'high contrast' 'text too small?' links? Hi all, I don't think this will work out in this case, but (I think) it's a difficult question all of us are going to be faced with. especially on high profile sites. Up to now I've been able to maintain my site header as vaguely the below; -- [logo] [tab][tab][tab][tab] [help|high contrast|text too small?] [login form] -- Right up at the top by the logo is the high contrast stylesheet switcher and a link to info on altering font sizes. The rationale being that if a user has trouble seeing then it can't go anywhere else but the prime spot, because I can't guarantee they'll find it anywhere else. This is a very high profile site and marketing want to use this space to promote to the high % of users, rather than to facilitate the very low % of users. What can be done? It's not something I'm likely to be able to maintain for long, but it's essential that somehow I do. Q: Just have the high contrast etc links on the homepage then the promo stuff once you're in? A: no, not everyone enters by the homepage. Q: Display the high contrast etc links when the last page the user visited wasn't from the same domain? A: This is my best idea so far, but what if they don't see it on the first load? Q: Keep the high contrast links but design other strong promotional areas to compensate A: Probably the most realistic, but the promotional areas you do are going to need to be damn good to compensate enough in the eyes of a marketer, and even then, having both would be even better for Marketing and you can bet they'll try. Aside from this though, the links are in the same size as the body text, wouldn't a high contrast link need to be massive and bold? There's no WAY anyone can do that on a high profile site, surely? What to do? Any help and ideas would be great, thanks in advance, Jamie Mason Ps- I've seen http://www.alistapart.com/articles/lowvision/
[WSG] Text input can't be selected in IE (html+css)
Title: Text input can't be selected in IE (html+css) Hi, I have a problem that's got me totally confused, I have a login and a password input in the header of my design. There's no _javascript_ involved at all, you can't seem to select the inputs, what I have noticed though is that if you give them an initial value then you can select it only where there's characters, if the user deleted them all though, they can't use the input anymore. Even if they had selected it and deleted back, they wouldn't be able to type. Has anyone ever heard of this? If not I'll post code. Thanks, Jamie
[WSG] SORTED = Text input can't be selected in IE (html+css)
Title: Text input can't be selected in IE (html+css) Thanks anyway but I think I've figured it out, abovethe area I've got a ul with each li set to display inline for 4 tabs, it's abs. positioned and I reckon some padding/margin is covering the hit area to focus. I'm not sure yet, but removing the styles for that area has got the inputs working again. From: Jamie Mason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 May 2005 15:09To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'Subject: [WSG] Text input can't be selected in IE (html+css)Importance: High Hi, I have a problem that's got me totally confused, I have a login and a password input in the header of my design. There's no _javascript_ involved at all, you can't seem to select the inputs, what I have noticed though is that if you give them an initial value then you can select it only where there's characters, if the user deleted them all though, they can't use the input anymore. Even if they had selected it and deleted back, they wouldn't be able to type. Has anyone ever heard of this? If not I'll post code. Thanks, Jamie
RE: [WSG] Headings within ul Navigation
Title: RE: [WSG] Headings within ul Navigation
Thanks all,
I've been doing it purely for strucural reasons rather than presentational.
The thought behind it was (all invented in my head);
+ hey, maybe it'll help give some more things for search engines to grab onto
+ maybe screen reader users can tab the nav by headers too, possibly helping as there's an 'alternative route'
Do you think the above is achieved? Is the 2nd point actually making it worse for these users?
Thanks again,
Jamie
-Original Message-
From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 05 May 2005 08:10
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Headings within ul Navigation
HI
While h1 is allowed in li according to
http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/block/h1.html, it's not the same way that you are suggesting.. if you want to markup text to be emphasised used em or strong.
h1-h6 are headings for content
You would be better of using descendant selectors here to avoid bloat
h4My list/h4!-- for instance --
ul
lihello
ullilevel2/li
/li
/ul
ul
{
/* styles */
}
ul li ul li
{
/* i think this will catch the 2nd level -could even do an li li to be less specific and catch ol's */ }
Cheers
James
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Headings within ul Navigation
Title: Headings within ul Navigation Hey all, Does anyone know whether it's correct to use headings in your navigation? e.g. ul lih2Item/h2/li lih2Item/h2/li lih2Item/h2/li lih2Item/h2 ul lih3Sub Item/h3/li lih3Sub Item/h3/li lih3Sub Item/h3/li /ul /li lih2Item/h2/li lih2Item/h2/li /ul Is the above right or wrong? I'm doing this at the moment, thinking it's helping give semantic meaning to the page, but is it right? Thanks in advance, Jamie Mason
RE: [WSG] Client wants flashing text
Title: RE: [WSG] Client wants flashing text 2 important points before I start... 1. Don't get me wrong, I don't want flashing text! 2. Don't get me wrong, I don't want flashing text! But...does anyone know about text-decoration:blink; and accessibility? It sounds a stain on the pristine sheets of CSS :) BUT it's part of CSS, and we all know the intentions of CSS and the attitudes of the people behind it, so surely...it must be accessible or it wouldn't have been included? Or am I wrong? It's only a particular range of flashing speeds that trigger epillepsy isn't it? Cheers, Jamie -Original Message- From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 14 April 2005 23:06 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Client wants flashing text Jeff Oien wrote: When a client wants some flashing text for emphasis, what do you do or tell them? a) it's not the 1991 anymore b) it can cause seizures in users with photosensitive epilepsy c) there are far better ways to add emphasis (most involving good design, creating visual hierarchies, etc) -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE7 isn't going to CSS2
Title: IE7 isn't going to CSS2 http://dean.edwards.name/weblog/2005/03/the-reason/ Apologies if this has been posted already
RE: [WSG] Acronym within th Screen Readers
Title: RE: [WSG] Acronym within th Screen Readers Thanks a lot guys, that's excellent, really really helpful. Cheers! I do need the abbreviated version to be in the TH if possible as I have three columns which apply to long abbreviations/acronyms, but who's table cells are just checkboxes. I need to save as much space as I can as the pages can be very long as it's a betting site. I think you've given me the answer though, I'll re-read in more detail and get something sorted. Just to cover my back on the header scope - I left it out as it didn't add anything to what I was asking, but yes it should be there :-p If a blog Tutorial does come of this, could whoever writes it (or spots it) drop me a quick email? Thanks again, greatly appreciated. Jamie Mason -Original Message- From: Jeff Lowder - Accessibility 1st [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 17 March 2005 00:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Acronym within th Screen Readers Thanks Patrick So many tables I've seen have been marked up that way, I just assumed it to be correct. Maybe that's a good blog tutorial. Cheers Jeff From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:17:10 + To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Acronym within th Screen Readers Jeff Lowder - Accessibility 1st wrote: Sorry guys, it really should be marked up as follows: th abbr=Cascading Style Sheet scope=colCSS/th You could even put aq title attribute in there as well if you like. Not to be picky, but that's wrong. It's the opposite of what's defined in the spec http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-abbr abbr = text [CS] This attribute should be used to provide an abbreviated form of the cell's content, and may be rendered by user agents when appropriate in place of the cell's content. Abbreviated names should be short since user agents may render them repeatedly. For instance, speech synthesizers may render the abbreviated headers relating to a particular cell before rendering that cell's content. So, correct use of the abbr attribute would be th abbr=CSS scope=colCascading Style Sheet/th which is not what you're after in this case. I'd say use the abbr or acronym (not going to start opening that can of worms again here) element inside the TH, like you originally envisaged. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Acronym within th Screen Readers
Title: RE: [WSG] Acronym within th Screen Readers ack, annoyingly you don't get a tooltip in ie for abbr, but do for acronym. From: Jamie Mason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 17 March 2005 09:27 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] Acronym within th Screen Readers Thanks a lot guys, that's excellent, really really helpful. Cheers! I do need the abbreviated version to be in the TH if possible as I have three columns which apply to long abbreviations/acronyms, but who's table cells are just checkboxes. I need to save as much space as I can as the pages can be very long as it's a betting site. I think you've given me the answer though, I'll re-read in more detail and get something sorted. Just to cover my back on the header scope - I left it out as it didn't add anything to what I was asking, but yes it should be there :-p If a blog Tutorial does come of this, could whoever writes it (or spots it) drop me a quick email? Thanks again, greatly appreciated. Jamie Mason -Original Message- From: Jeff Lowder - Accessibility 1st [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 17 March 2005 00:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Acronym within th Screen Readers Thanks Patrick So many tables I've seen have been marked up that way, I just assumed it to be correct. Maybe that's a good blog tutorial. Cheers Jeff From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:17:10 + To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Acronym within th Screen Readers Jeff Lowder - Accessibility 1st wrote: Sorry guys, it really should be marked up as follows: th abbr=Cascading Style Sheet scope=colCSS/th You could even put aq title attribute in there as well if you like. Not to be picky, but that's wrong. It's the opposite of what's defined in the spec http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-abbr abbr = text [CS] This attribute should be used to provide an abbreviated form of the cell's content, and may be rendered by user agents when appropriate in place of the cell's content. Abbreviated names should be short since user agents may render them repeatedly. For instance, speech synthesizers may render the abbreviated headers relating to a particular cell before rendering that cell's content. So, correct use of the abbr attribute would be th abbr=CSS scope=colCascading Style Sheet/th which is not what you're after in this case. I'd say use the abbr or acronym (not going to start opening that can of worms again here) element inside the TH, like you originally envisaged. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Acronym within th Screen Readers
Title: Acronym within th Screen Readers Hey all, Does anyone know what the output for a Screen Reader would be for example; thacronym title=Cascading Style SheetsCSS/acronym/th I'm hoping Cascading Style Sheets, but my feeling is CSS, is this the case? Thanks in advance! Jamie Mason
RE: [WSG] Site Review - CAR SELLER PORTAL
Title: RE: [WSG] Site Review - CAR SELLER PORTAL We proud to be the first car seller world wide portal to use XHTML and Webstandards ...I'd wait until AFTER your page validates before saying things like that, and check! (http://www.autotrader.co.uk) Your fieldsets are also missing legends Jamie
RE: [WSG] Site Review - CAR SELLER PORTAL
Title: RE: [WSG] Site Review - CAR SELLER PORTAL Am I looking at the right site? http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1=http%3A//www.meucarronovo.com.br/ doesn't validate -Original Message- From: Genau Lopes Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 07 March 2005 13:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Review - CAR SELLER PORTAL Dear Mr. Mason. I suppose that you DIDN´T understood what i wrote before. I said X HTML Web Standards, and for me, that site, even uses HTML tags as you can see follows... div style=position:absolute;left:0px;top:117px;color:white; bTo activate all search settings above pleasefont color=red a href="" href="http://registration.autotrader.co.uk/login/uk/WWW2" TARGET="_blank">http://registration.autotrader.co.uk/login/uk/WWW2? su=1amp;cp='+escape(window.location);login./a /fontnbsp;nbsp;If you do not have an account pleasefont color=red a href="" href="http://registration.autotrader.co.uk/reg/uk/WWW2?s=1" TARGET="_blank">http://registration.autotrader.co.uk/reg/uk/WWW2?s=1 cp='+escape(window.location);register/a/font/b/div/div/div/form/div Sorry, but you would reconsider you comments, and read more before take an opinion. by the way, the website is already validated. best regards, Genau L. Jr http://www.meucarronovo.com.br Jamie Mason wrote: We proud to be the first car seller world wide portal to use XHTML and Webstandards ...I'd wait until AFTER your page validates before saying things like that, and check! (http://www.autotrader.co.uk) Your fieldsets are also missing legends Jamie ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Gnews
looks good, it lets you submit empty forms though, use something
like;
if (strlen($whatever) 1) {computer says
no};
or
if
(!$whatever) {computer says no};
Jamie
From: Gizax Studios [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07 March 2005 15:35To:
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Gnews
Hi
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[WSG] Colour Mixer
Title: Colour Mixer Crikey, this is a bit special; http://colormixers.com/mixers/cmr/
[WSG] clear:both vs br clear=all
Title: clear:both vs br clear=all
In Firefox, this;
HTML
div class=clrnbsp;/div
CSS
.clr{height:0px;clear:both;font-size:0px}
..isn't working in one part of our site, but is fine everywhere else, this;
br clear=all /
Works fine, but as you'll know...
11.2 Avoid deprecated features of W3C technologies.
* Rule: 11.2.1 - Identify the use of one or more deprecated elements or attributes within the document.
o Failure - Document uses one or more deprecated elements or attributes. The document contains
the element: br with the deprecated attribute: clear
I just want to clear some floats to get the background to collect a div area. Can someone help me?
Thanks in advance all,
Jamie Mason
[WSG] RE: clear:both vs br clear=all
Title: RE: clear:both vs br clear=all
ha! Cancel this, I just fixed it...
FYI
br class=clr /
-Original Message-
From: Jamie Mason
Sent: 24 February 2005 11:35
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: clear:both vs br clear=all
In Firefox, this;
HTML
div class=clrnbsp;/div
CSS
.clr{height:0px;clear:both;font-size:0px}
..isn't working in one part of our site, but is fine everywhere else, this;
br clear=all /
Works fine, but as you'll know...
11.2 Avoid deprecated features of W3C technologies.
* Rule: 11.2.1 - Identify the use of one or more deprecated elements or attributes within the document.
o Failure - Document uses one or more deprecated elements or attributes. The document contains
the element: br with the deprecated attribute: clear
I just want to clear some floats to get the background to collect a div area. Can someone help me?
Thanks in advance all,
Jamie Mason
[WSG] Common Coding Problems with HTML and CSS
Title: Common Coding Problems with HTML and CSS An absolutely fantastic article, incredibly handy. http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/common.html If you've seen it before, great ( don't reply ;) )
RE: [WSG] Table content displayed as a list
Title: RE: [WSG] Table content displayed as a list
I'd say that if it's a list, then format it as a list as using CSS to bastardise your document seems to defeat the object. If it's dynamic, can you not just output the data into a list instead?
-Original Message-
From: RMW Web Publishing [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 22 February 2005 01:04
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Table content displayed as a list
I have some tabular content (in the HTML as a table) but what it to display as a list.
This works fine in Firefox by making each TD display as a 'block', but does nothing in IE. Any ideas?
I do not want to do any static positioning as the table content contains dynamic data. Would it be acceptable to change from a table to a definition list ('dl') with multiple descriptions ('dd')?
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Standards and site structuring
Title: RE: [WSG] Standards and site structuring This is already in development with WebML, as far as I know the project has re started. -Original Message- From: Rick Faaberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 22 February 2005 04:12 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Standards and site structuring I think that becomes absurd really quick, and ultimately leads to software creating websites with no human intervention required. :-( Rick Faaberg
RE: [WSG] Quick h1,h2 etc question
Title: RE: [WSG] Quick h1,h2 etc question Thanks all, I thought 2 was the way to be doing it, I'm sure I'd read on the W3C though that they had to be used to structure an ordered numerical hierarchy, but I can't imagine many practical examples where you might do this. Thanks again, Jamie
[WSG] Quick h1,h2 etc question
Title: Quick h1,h2 etc question Hi, I'm sure this has been asked time and time again and is probably a daft question, but which is the proper way to use header tags? Thanks in advance for your patience and help! Jamie Is it... = 1) All headers must be used in order only, so most important headers go at the top then grade downwards with less important headers always being lower down = h1/h1 h2/h2 h2/h2 h3/h3 h4/h4 h4/h4 ..etc = Or = 2) With the exception of h1 used once, can you set the headers out loosely in the same tree structure lists are set out in? So h3 would only be used as a child (but not nested within) of an h2, h4 as a child of h3 etc? Then reading downwards through the headers, you're allowed to move backwards say from an h3, back to an h2? I'm not sure how to explain my question, but basically I think, can you define tree structures with headers? or do they have to be used in an ordered numerical hierarchy? = h1/h1 h2/h2 h3/h3 h3/h3 h2/h2 h3/h3 h3/h3 h4/h4 h4/h4 h2/h2
[WSG] Quick h1,h2 etc question
Title: Quick h1,h2 etc question Hi, I'm sure this has been asked time and time again and is probably a daft question, but which is the proper way to use header tags? Thanks in advance for your patience and help! Jamie Is it... = 1) All headers must be used in order only, so most important headers go at the top then grade downwards with less important headers always being lower down = h1/h1 h2/h2 h2/h2 h3/h3 h4/h4 h4/h4 ..etc = Or = 2) With the exception of h1 used once, can you set the headers out loosely in the same tree structure lists are set out in? So h3 would only be used as a child (but not nested within) of an h2, h4 as a child of h3 etc? Then reading downwards through the headers, you're allowed to move backwards say from an h3, back to an h2? I'm not sure how to explain my question, but basically I think, can you define tree structures with headers? or do they have to be used in an ordered numerical hierarchy? = h1/h1 h2/h2 h3/h3 h3/h3 h2/h2 h3/h3 h3/h3 h4/h4 h4/h4 h2/h2
[WSG] CSS Optgroup indentation in IE
Title: CSS Optgroup indentation in IE Hi all, Does anyone know how to remove the indentation of options within optgroups in IE? It works fine in Firefox as you'd expect but is it possible to alter it in IE? I've tried margin, padding and text-indent with no luck on both the optgroup and option, have I missed something, or is it just not supported? Vaguely the code is as below select optgroup label= option/option option/option option/option /optgroup optgroup label= option/option option/option option/option /optgroup /select Thanks a lot. Jamie Mason
[WSG] Interesting link on Accessibility in the UK
Title: Message I heard about this on a radio campaign they're running ahead of the new laws on accessibility and disabled rights in general in the UK; http://www.drc-gb.org Jamie Mason: Design// Skysports.com, Central House, Beckwith Knowle, Otley Road, Harrogate, HG3 1UF T: (01423) 700849
RE: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar
Title: RE: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar Hi, Does anyone know if there's a firefox equivalent? Thanks, Jamie -Original Message- From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 August 2004 05:36 To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar Update on Web Accessibility Toolbar Accessible Information Solutions recently released the latest version of their Web Accessibility Toolbar: Version EN 1.1 http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/ New features include: - one step access to enable/disable IE settings - keyboard access to all menu items, hotkeys on major functions - removed reliance on _javascript_ for many functions Also released is a French [beta] version in association with braillenet.org http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/versions/french/ And an Italian version in association with webaccessibile.org: http://www.webaccessibile.org/argomenti/argomento.asp?cat=474 More exciting work from Steven Faulkner and his crew! Thanks Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar
Title: RE: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar Hi, Cheers guys, I have that already, I just wondered if the ie toolbar had features this firefox one didn't, and a version was available for firefox. Jamie Mason: Design // Skysports.com, Central House, Beckwith Knowle, Otley Road, Harrogate, HG3 1UF T: (01423) 700849 -Original Message- From: Jason Turnbull [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 August 2004 09:24 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar Jamie Mason wrote: Does anyone know if there's a firefox equivalent? http://update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefox =60vid=63 Regards Jason * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar
Title: RE: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar Hi, Does anyone know if there's a firefox equivalent? Thanks, Jamie -Original Message- From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 August 2004 05:36 To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar Update on Web Accessibility Toolbar Accessible Information Solutions recently released the latest version of their Web Accessibility Toolbar: Version EN 1.1 http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/ New features include: - one step access to enable/disable IE settings - keyboard access to all menu items, hotkeys on major functions - removed reliance on _javascript_ for many functions Also released is a French [beta] version in association with braillenet.org http://www.nils.org.au/ais/web/resources/toolbar/versions/french/ And an Italian version in association with webaccessibile.org: http://www.webaccessibile.org/argomenti/argomento.asp?cat=474 More exciting work from Steven Faulkner and his crew! Thanks Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar
Title: RE: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar Hi, Cheers guys, I have that already, I just wondered if the ie toolbar had features this firefox one didn't, and a version was available for firefox. Jamie Mason: Design // Skysports.com, Central House, Beckwith Knowle, Otley Road, Harrogate, HG3 1UF T: (01423) 700849 -Original Message- From: Jason Turnbull [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 August 2004 09:24 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Updated Web Accessibility Tool bar Jamie Mason wrote: Does anyone know if there's a firefox equivalent? http://update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefox =60vid=63 Regards Jason * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Styling Text... (Andy Budd Accessibility Quiz)
Title: RE: [WSG] Styling Text... (Andy Budd Accessibility Quiz) If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say anything at all (please) -Original Message- From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 3:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling Text... (Andy Budd Accessibility Quiz) Geoff Deering wrote: That is a very very poor quiz, and shows the author does not understand WCAG1 very well at all. Actually, it shows more that he does not know how to form the proper questions. The quality of the questions and quiz aside, why do you think the author doesn't understand WCAG!? My impression was the opposite.
[WSG] Response to Recommended Books Feedback
Title: Message Hey Guys, Thanks for all your recommendations, they were all really helpful. Some of them we have already, butI've put together a list from the new suggestions and others I found and have put forward the following shortlist; - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Design of Sites: Patterns, Principles, and Processes for Crafting a Customer-Centered Web Experience http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/020172149X/ref=wl_it_dp/002-9997035-2496809?%5Fencoding=UTF8coliid=I1S5ZRJ2SV6GCTcolid=3SPRHP4EVRUW0 Web Redesign Workflow that works http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735710627/ref=ase_blogography-21/202-0126107-9787029 Designing Web Usability: The Practice of Simplicity http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/156205810X/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/202-0126107-9787029 The Elements of User Experience http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712026/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/202-0126107-9787029 Designing with Web Standards http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712018/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/202-0126107-9787029 Submit Now: Designing Persuasive Websites http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735711704/ref=ase_blogography-21/202-0126107-9787029 Speed Up Your Site: Web Site Optimization http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735713243/ref%3Dnosim/websiteoptimi-20/002-9997035-2496809 HTML Utopia: Designing Without Tables Using CSS http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0957921829/ref=wl_it_dp/002-9997035-2496809?%5Fencoding=UTF8coliid=I9X2I1XIVUYYZcolid=3SPRHP4EVRUW0 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I hope you like these also, andthanks again for your help. Jamie Mason: Design T: (01423) 700849 attachment: image001.gif
[WSG] XHTML Transitional - Strict
Title: XHTML Transitional - Strict Hello all, I was hoping one of you could tell me, or know any url's that would be helpful on moving from XHTML Transitional to Strict. What are the main things to look out for when moving over? What is allowed in Transitional that has to be removed for strict? Thanks a lot, Jamie Mason: Design T: (01423) 700849
RE: [WSG] KHTML ??
Title: RE: [WSG] KHTML ?? *shakes head* I bet you guys are among the few that find Steve Martin films funny, right? :) Jamie Mason: Design T: (01423) 700849 -Original Message- From: t94xr.net.nz webmaster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 11 June 2004 10:32 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] KHTML ?? LOL - Original Message - From: Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] KHTML ?? On Friday, June 11, 2004, at 06:56 PM, t94xr.net.nz webmaster wrote: just in the art of humur? What is Google? Camz :D www.fuckingkhtmlit.com N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] KHTML ??
Title: RE: [WSG] KHTML ?? This is where I ask you to go to google, right? Jamie Mason: Design T: (01423) 700849 -Original Message- From: Jonathan Morton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 10 June 2004 15:52 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] KHTML ?? Jamie Mason wrote: *shakes head* I bet you guys are among the few that find Steve Martin films funny, right? Who's Steve Martin? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] meta http-equiv
Title: meta http-equiv Hey, just a quick question, is the below the correct markup for a transitional XHTML document? I thought the meta http-equiv was text/xhtml, so I've lost confidence in the rest of the code being correct also. Thanks a lot! Sorry to always be the one with the menial questions. Jamie Mason: Design T: (01423) 700849 !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml head meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 / titleUntitled Document/title /head body /body /html
RE: [WSG] www.seoed.com - Please review
Title: RE: [WSG] www.seoed.com - Please review Hey, This is really great, well done man! It looks all there to me usability and accessibility wise, I'll leave it to the bigger guns to find the nitty grittys with it. I'm happy with it though! Take care. Jamie Mason: Design -Original Message- From: Razvan Pop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 08 June 2003 16:48 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] www.seoed.com - Please review Hello. http://www.seoed.com/ Please take a look at my site and tell me what you think. :) I would like some more opinions regarding usability and accessibility. I look forward for your feedback. Site in 90% finished. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Action to force browser developers to clean up their ac t
Title: RE: [WSG] Action to force browser developers to clean up their act Hi, I'd be happiest if an IE7.x came that was completely standards compliant and auto updated itself (without a facility to disable this) and if MS wanted to add any exclusive extras then they did, but that everything else rendered exactly as the technology creators intended. They get their extra stuff to try and win extra users with, and developers who choose not to use those features still have their pages rendered properly and if they do, those features didn't affect the non IE excluisve components. Hope that made sense :/ Jamie Mason: Design -Original Message- From: Nick Gleitzman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 08 June 2004 16:57 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Action to force browser developers to clean up their act On Wednesday, June 9, 2004, at 01:41 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we are going to make sites that only work in certain browsers why not just code to IE's standards and not bother with the obscure browsers like firefox and opera. That way we don't need standards at all! I can have my marquee tag back and my ActiveX controls - Ill be able to do all kinds of great things. After all nearly everyone uses IE... Seriously though, If you are going to take this hardline attitude by purposefully excluding users of certain browsers then you may as well do what I was saying above. Don't loose site of the objective - with standards we are trying to let more browsers work with our sites not less. Don't get too bitter about IE people it's not good for your health. No, no - I'm not suggesting for a second we should *only* develop for IE, or any other certain browsers! Just the opposite - I make a point of delivering my clients' message to the maximum number of visitors. And I'm not bitter; just realistic. That's why I say 'IE is here to stay'. Thanks to the many gurus around, we have a whole menu of hacks available so we *can* deliver Standards-driven sites to non-compliant browsers. I just think we have to keep an eye on the past, even as we move forward. Someone said in a recent post on another thread, 'IE/Mac is no longer being developed, so it's a dead duck.' Huh? Did all the IE/Mac users just stop, there and then, when that news was announced? No - and that's why I'll keep hacking for, and testing in, the widest possible range of browsers I can. I owe it to my clients. 100% compliant browsers. Write once, publish anywhere. It's the dream of Standards, right? I'm all for it; I'll do my bit, and more. But it's not the real world - not yet. Nick ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] NS6 indiscrepancies
Title: RE: [WSG] NS6 indiscrepancies What's the problem though captain? Jamie Mason: Design -Original Message- From: Martin Chapman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 07 June 2004 16:45 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] NS6 indiscrepancies Hi All Anyone got any decent pointers for Netscape 6 CSS problems? I'm finalising a site works great in IE6, 5.5, 5, NS7, Safari, Mozilla etc. etc. However, NS6 is simply a mess. Have scoured the web but always draw a blank. Kind regards Martin Chapman Fromm -- Web development, identity and design. co-ord.com Limited 9 Tynwald Road West Kirby Merseyside CH48 4DA Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.co-ord.com -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Make em' pay for IE
Title: RE: [WSG] Make em' pay for IE I agree word for word with Mark on this Jamie Mason: Design -Original Message- From: Mark Harwood WebMail [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 June 2004 12:23 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Make em' pay for IE Im sorry but you never ever suggest to a client that the site will not work in IE, 9 time out of 10 a client will only know about IE. If your suggesting standards you should know what and what not to do to make a standard site work accross all browsers. I would never ever suggest a site will take longer to do due to getting it to work in IE, if you have to do that state that there will be a extra Testing Period in which you will be working over multiple platforms and browsers to check all features are compatible. Your never gonna get a client that says i dont want this to work in ie! and if you ever did it more than like'ly the person could do it them self * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]
Title: RE: [WSG] Hi, Tables are for tabular data only, not for use for layouts as a positional grid. The only time tables should be used with CSS is to present tabular data in the content of a CSS laid out design. Cheers, Jamie Mason: Design -Original Message- From: Chris Blown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 May 2004 09:37 To: WSG Subject: Re: [WSG] I would like to see a third version that uses a combination of the two, the best of each method merged.. The Hybrid Approach. Regards Chris Blown On Fri, 2004-05-28 at 17:41, Gary Menzel wrote: Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death', a SitePoint article where he does the same design in tables and then in css, and then comes to some conclusions about which was better. http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css Interesting read. After finishing reading this, I felt like I was Luke Skywalker and had just found out that Darth Vader was my father. I wanted to join the dark side of the force and go back to coding with tables again. I'll tell you why... It was the compatibility thing that got me. So. he wrote more code (embedded tables shudder) - but he delivered an acceptable end result that rendered friendly in virtually all of the browsers. And, other than remembering the old hacks (versus the new ones he was still to implement to fix up some of the CSS/XHTML incompatibilities) it was all smooth sailing from beginning to end. The result with CSS and XHTML was less than pleasant and he still had to go through the hack files to get it to work acceptably across the majority of platforms. Dont worry though. I will continue on with CSS/XHTML. In the end, Darth Vader wont seduce me to the dark side and he will finally, on his death bed, repent of his sins and return to his rightful place and the Emporer will lose. [NOTE: any similarities of the above-mentioned Star Wars (tm LucasFilm) characters to anyone living or dead is purely co-incidental] Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 To unsubscribe from this email please forward this email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited (ABN 49 010 669 726 AFSL 235410) A Participant of ASX Group * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts
Title: RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts Ok, Rimantas, replicate http://seowebsitepromotion.com without tables and without hacks. - Mike Pepper Hi, I don't want to lower the tone, but was that comment a joke or were you serious? Your site is a standard 3 column layout, it's perfectly possible to build that in CSS-P. No offence meant, Jamie Mason: Design
RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts
Title: Message Hi, You could absolutely position the right hand column, put a right margin on the centre column of the width of the right column and have that and the left column fluid. That would work, right? Apologies again for my previous posts tone. Jamie Mason: Design -Original Message-From: Mike Pepper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 May 2004 16:07To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts No, Jamie, not a joke. As I said in an earlier post, it's possible to achieve almost anything with CSS but at what cost in time and nested divs to achieve the same result. And it's not a 'standard' 3 column layout; the right is fixed to maximise the text area available to the other two columns. Also, once you switch to either of the other two stylesheets you have to deal with breaking and intermittent rendering or borders. If I make all columns fluid and eliminate borders it's a piece of cake to develop for all browsers with minimal hacks. Another work-around is to use relative layered placement. That does the job. Sure, I can run a 3 column layout if I compromise on the visual aspect, in other words, if I change the design. But I'm then admitting the shortcomings of CSS have forced development within constraints of what CSS can achieve rather than accepting these limitations and digging outthe trusty old table spanner from the toolbox. Jamie, I know you mean no offence but that was a decent courtesy we all sometimes forget to add which assures clean, forthright and polite dialogue. Thanks, mate. Mike -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Jamie MasonSent: 28 May 2004 15:28To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts "Ok, Rimantas, replicate http://seowebsitepromotion.com without tables and without hacks." - Mike Pepper Hi, I don't want to lower the tone, but was that comment a joke or were you serious? Your site is a standard 3 column layout, it's perfectly possible to build that in CSS-P. No offence meant, Jamie Mason: Design
[WSG] Impairment browsers (insert correct pc term here)
Title: Message Hi, I recently downloaded standalone versions of old versions of the major browsers for testing (and am aware of the imperfections of these) but was curious after reading the post on 'Lynx'... Does anyone know the names (and ideally urls) to download speech, textbrowsers etc? I know nothing about these and would really love a chance to be able to test my work on these directly. Apologies for not knowing the correct pc term for categorising these. Thanks in advance, Jamie Mason: Design
RE: [WSG] Impairment browsers (insert correct pc term here)
Title: Message Hey Pat, Thanks a lot for the advice, It's best then if I steer away from 'hands on' testing of Assistive Technology and just follow the guidelines as is. Thanks again, that was a huge help. Jamie Mason: Design -Original Message-From: P.H.Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 May 2004 15:06To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] Impairment browsers (insert correct pc term here) Ok, the proper general term for this is "Assistive Technology" (AT for short). Text/braille browsers: Lynx and BrailleSurf Screenreaders and speech browsers: Dolphin Supernova, JAWS, IBM HPR, pwWebSpeak, WindowsEyes. Most of these have demo versions you can download. Howerver, I would say that - unless you actually know what you're doing when using these browsers - it may do more harm than good to test in these (especially the screenreaders), as your testing will not reflect the way a regular user would employ them. There are many setting etc (e.g. verbosity settings) that are not ideal in the default. Also, many people make the mistake of listening to the entire output of the screenreader, whereas visually impaired users will skip through a page at high speed, then often backtrack and slow down as needed (similar to visually skim-reading the page). Without good command of the software, your testing will be inherently flawed. Patrick Patrick H. LaukeWebmaster / University of Salfordhttp://www.salford.ac.uk -Original Message-From: Jamie Mason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 26 May 2004 11:16To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: [WSG] Impairment browsers (insert correct pc term here) Hi, I recently downloaded standalone versions of old versions of the major browsers for testing (and am aware of the imperfections of these) but was curious after reading the post on 'Lynx'... Does anyone know the names (and ideally urls) to download speech, textbrowsers etc? I know nothing about these and would really love a chance to be able to test my work on these directly. Apologies for not knowing the correct pc term for categorising these. Thanks in advance, Jamie Mason: Design
RE: [WSG] What's the value and of a Ruby?
Title: RE: [WSG] What's the value and of a Ruby? I think he's asking what other othes it could have, other than those intended. I have no ideas at the moment. Jamie Mason: Design -Original Message- From: Chris Bentley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 24 May 2004 08:23 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] What's the value and of a Ruby? While the above examples are all useful, what I'm wondering is whether it has a more general usefulness? afaik its purpose is solely as you have described - to annotate ideographic languages with short phonetic annotations to aid with pronunciation or meaning. http://www.w3.org/International/O-HTML-ruby did you have something in mind? Cheers, chris * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] New suckerfish menus
Title: RE: [WSG] New suckerfish menus Or as Mr Bell would say, DING DONG! Jamie Mason: Design (Ps- oh no...what have I done?) -Original Message- From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 21 May 2004 07:45 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] New suckerfish menus As Inspector Gadget would say ... WOWSERS! -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Kay Smoljak wrote: Just in case you haven't seen it yet, there's a new version of the famous Suckerfish menus: http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ They've added support for multiple levels, and lightened the _javascript_ even further to just 12 lines. I'm officially flabbergasted :) -- Kay Smoljak Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/ Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] height problem
Title: RE: [WSG] height problem I joined yesterday and ditto :) Jamie Mason: Design -Original Message- From: Rick Faaberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 20 May 2004 10:34 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] height problem On 5/20/04 2:30 AM Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: Once again... thanks to you and to this list for all your help. (Respect :o) Kim I only joined here umm 2 days ago. I'm impressed with the group and attitude here. Way to go, whoever started this and also the participants. I'm still lurking and learning. :-) Rick * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'
Title: RE: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...' I feel that Mozilla is by a country mile the best browser available, but the guy you're replying to there is right in my opinion. The average web user doesn't comfortably adapt to new environments all that well. Jamie Mason: Design -Original Message- From: Rimantas Liubertas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 19 May 2004 15:00 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...' Opera will never do it. The UI is butt ugly, the usability is woeful, and the whole thing feels a whole lot cheaper.\ Have you seen opera 7.50? And opera on mobile phones is reality, not something will never do it. The only way I can see a browser beating IE is if it looks, feels and behaves like IE in every way possible. They don't need to reinvent the wheel in terms of UI design and interaction -- they need to mirror it, Oh, please. I've swithced to FireFox (Firebird then) a year ago just because it looks, feels and behaves way better than IE. And even before the switch I've been using NetCaptor (commercial software), which added some features to IE. I got those for free with Mozilla. Which was the last version of Mozilla/Opera you have tried to use? Regards, Rimantas * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
