Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
On 3/12/07, Chris Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But clearly it's your client, and you have to work they way they want to work. this is not completely true. if you are an employee, then yes, but if it is a client, not always the case. they hired you to do a job and it is your responsibilty to do the job. sounds like to me they want to get involved on a nuts and bolts level and that could eventually cause problems. i agree with an early poster about the pencil and paper layout tool. this is what i use with my clients. once they argee to a layout, i start posting test pages for them to look at. most web design pros use paper and pencil, felt tip markers, crayons or whatever to sketch the design and hierarchy of the site to begin with. as the project develops and changes are made, then the draft can be revised. i don't think there is any simple tool for a client to use to do your job without you spending time and effort to teach them how to use it, that could cost you your job and what do you have? another non-compliant web site. is this what you want? maybe it would happen and maybe it wouldn't. if you are the pro, you will discourage them from getting into your arena of expertise. would they let you into theirs? i doubt it. i digress. make it easy on yourself and explain there is no simple tool for them to use without a large learning curve. did you learn html and css overnight? reassure them that you are there to make visual their ideas. that you will do to the best of your ability to provide them with a functional, w3c-recommendations-compliant web site that is true to their ideas. you encourage their input, but not their code. again, i find live test pages for the client to see works wonders. or you could continue to search for a simple to use, fairly lightweight and foolproof page layout tool when you should be talking with your client and making web pages. dwain From: Nick Roper Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
then i agree with your earlier post. i did not find it snarky. it was true what you said. dwain On 3/12/07, Chris Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I **was** the early poster… -- *From:* Dwain Alford *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? i agree with an early poster about the pencil and paper layout tool. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] web accessibility-some thoughts
On 3/8/07, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/8/07, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why aren't TV broadcasters and movie production companies required to sub-title all of their broadcasts or films, or have an off screen reader describing the scenes? tv manufacturers have been installing caption options for a few years now and the broadcast industry has been supplying the captioning service. even some commercials have sub-titles. could you imagine how long a movie would run and the continuity problems if there were long descriptions of each scene? dwain dwain -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
i don't think you are missing anything. imo what you are proposing in your example is not tabular data at all. it's content followed by a string of dots ending in more content. if you are critized for thinking this is tabular data, then you should be critized; but, if you are being critized for wanting to pursue this type of presentation outside of a table, then i too am critized. dwain On 3/6/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
after reading the comments posted here, i guess that standards are what makes you feel good. maybe having a set in stone definition of what is tabular data and what isn't would be easier than what we have? it seems to me that the intent of the author plays a big role in how the document is crafted. i guess it is hard for some to rid themselves of the need to craft pages layed out in tables. i guess that the definition of what is tabular data and what isn't is still a gray area in the arena of standards. dwain On 3/6/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tables are the go Thierry. The names and functions are always correctly justified that way. Not only that the dots look clunky, like a word document user who hasn't yet discovered tabs, and so just uses stops or the space bar. best Rob -- *Robert Robinson BSS (Applied Psych Pers Mgt IR)** e-Publishing Section ** Service Delivery Design Support Branch Customer Service Design Implementation Division* *Phone: Fax: Email:* (02) 6244 6616 (sp. 446616) (02) 6244 7952 (sp. 447952)* **Robert Robinson* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]* Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/03/2007 12:51 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject [WSG] Talking about tabular data... Reference Expires The tabular data thread reminds me of one I participated in in another group. The original post was: quote I have a page with a list of officers of an organization. It's an obvious application for a table because that's what tables were designed for. But I wanted it to look the way it did in the printed version, where there was a row of dots leading from the heading to the person's name. For example (and this might not look right depending on your browser or viewer): President..John Smith Vice-president.Janet Jones In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the cell on the left is filled out with dots. /quote I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this be considered tabular data or not? Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good as anything else? I'm curious because I've been so much criticized for my view on this that I'd like to know if I'm not missing something... Thanks. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** IMPORTANT: This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament. If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
ok, i'll bite. how does it change the meaning? i really don't understand what you mean. after reading a later post about screen readers and how they would go crazy with the dots, that i understand; but again, i don't understand your statement about changing the meaning. what is the meaning in this case? dwain On 3/6/07, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dwain Alford wrote: maybe having a set in stone definition of what is tabular data and what isn't would be easier than what we have? if it was easy to come up with a definitive definition, then yes. ok, i'll just splurge out two random things that popped into my head...the way i see it, it's likely to be tabular data if: - the various cells have a clearly defined relationship - moving content from one cell to another changes the *meaning*, not just the way it's laid out on screen P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...
thanks for your explanation. dwain On 3/7/07, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i don't think you are missing anything. imo what you are proposing Actually I think I was missing something, because in my opinion, this was a no brainer and I didn't expect these answers at all. For me if it fits in a two column table then it's not tabular data. I have a need for a table when it is the only tool that would make sense of the data. Usually that's the way I think about it, if it makes sense only in a table then it's tabular data. I don't think the other way around, I don't leave room for any other consideration. So in short, if it *also* makes sense in a DL or an UL or anything else (without styling), then it is not tabular data. Because only tables can display tabular data. I don't know if you see what I mean though, I may be making this more complicated than it is :) in your example is not tabular data at all. it's content followed by a string of dots ending in more content. if you are critized for thinking this is tabular data, then you should be critized; but, if you are being critized for wanting to pursue this type of presentation outside of a table, then i too am critized. Yes I was criticized for suggesting that a Definition List was may be more appropriate. I'm *really* surprised that so many people on *this* list replied saying that using a table in this case would be ok. Because in my opinion it's not. I'm not saying that people should not use a table for this, I'm just saying that I don't think it is the proper solution in this particular case. And I do think there is a definitive answer :-) Anyway, this was my examples using a Definition List http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/dot_dl/ http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/dot_dl/with_no_image.asp Thanks to all who responded --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] background won't repeat-y
i have done this before, but i can't seem to get this going. according to css definitive guide 3rd edition if i use the following css the background image is supposed to tile vertically: background: url(some-image.png) repeat-y; well, without a height and width on the image it doesn't appear on the page, much less tile vertically. the page is here: http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/marbling-effects.html css is here: http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/css/mueller.css like i said, i have made this work once before, but i can't figure this one out and i've been at it all day. dwain -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] background won't repeat-y
never mind, i figured it out. thanks for being there. dwain On 3/4/07, Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i have done this before, but i can't seem to get this going. according to css definitive guide 3rd edition if i use the following css the background image is supposed to tile vertically: background: url(some-image.png ) repeat-y; well, without a height and width on the image it doesn't appear on the page, much less tile vertically. the page is here: http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/marbling-effects.html css is here: http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/css/mueller.css like i said, i have made this work once before, but i can't figure this one out and i've been at it all day. dwain -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a . tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] background won't repeat-y
jake, this is what i wanted to do. i looked back at an old site where i had
used a background image and all came out in the wash, so to speak.
http://www.mppsi.com/ works great at 800x600.
dwain
On 3/4/07, Jake Tracey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hey Dwain,
Do you want the paint stripe to repeat as the background for the whole
page? I tried background: url(../images/paint-stripe.png) repeat-y; on
body {} and it worked fine.
Hope this helps!
Jake
--
Jake Tracey
http://www.jaketracey.com
p. +61410676643
e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
skype. jaketracey
On 05/03/2007, at 4:14 PM, Dwain Alford wrote:
i have done this before, but i can't seem to get this going. according to
css definitive guide 3rd edition if i use the following css the background
image is supposed to tile vertically:
background: url(some-image.png ) repeat-y;
well, without a height and width on the image it doesn't appear on the
page, much less tile vertically.
the page is here:
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/marbling-effects.html
css is here: http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/css/mueller.css
like i said, i have made this work once before, but i can't figure this
one out and i've been at it all day.
dwain
--
dwain alford
p.o. box 145
winfield, alabama 35594
u.s.a .
tele: 205.487.2570
cell: 205.495.5619
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Re: [WSG] transparent background of png
hi robin, my hp laptop leans toward the blue when viewing images, especially gray, so i doubt if it's anything that you are doing. it would be nice if there was a setting for a laptop lcd that would allow for a neutral color setting, like 50% rgb respectively. dwain On 3/1/07, Robin @ Xplore.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I have started putting together a site and I have an image with shading around the outside and a transparent background which I need to layer over a grey background. http://training.xtools.co.nz/xplore_test/index.htm I tried a .gif with transparency but it looked terrible with the white edges of the shading showing through, I have now replaced that with a PNG32 which look ok but when I view this using a laptop the transparent background is blue. Is there something I am doing wrong? If not what are my other options to make this work in all browsers and viewing devices? Cheers guys. *Robin Gorry* *Senior Web Developer* *Xplore Net Solutions * *d*: 00 64 (0)6 834 24 84 *f*: 00 64 (0)6 834 24 86 *e : [EMAIL PROTECTED] * *w: www.xplore.net * Take control of your website - ask me today about Xsite-tomorrows Content Management System CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards based visual design guidelines
Herrod, Lisa wrote: Hello, I'm looking for some examples of standards based visual design guidelines and wondering if you can point me to anything you've seen or personally use in your design process...? If it is something you use during design development, let me know that too, as I'm interested to see how developers/designers apply standards from a purely visual perspective. Thanks and looking forward to hearing your story, hi lisa, i use the jigsaw puzzle design method, which is not taught anywhere that i know of. the jigsaw method is taking blocks of content and putting them together visually into a hopefully pleasing design. if not pleasing at least utilitarian. i strive for some form of cohesion in the design. by that i mean that the elements can be followed in some sort of comprehensive fashion. it may not be pretty, but there should be some logic to the format. the following site is under reconstruction off line for seo purposes, but the format is the same. it may not be pretty, but hopefully utilitarian and logical in it's approach. if you would like to comment to the list that would be fine as well as off list comments are also welcomed. http://www.studiokdd.com/ dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash elements
Tom Livingston wrote: Hello all, Can someone point me to the latest and greatest method for adding Flash to a page. Also, adding alternate content to a Flash element. Can the alt content be an image? Off list if you think it's best... Thanks! here's one from, i think, this list: object type=application/x-shockwave-flash data=opening.swf width=550 height=377 param name=movie value=opening.swf / param name=quality value=high / param name=bgcolor value=#fff / img src=graphics/openingflashimage.gif alt=/ /object hth, dwain p.s. - this one doesn't get blocked by the flash blocker extension in ff and --- it validates. -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash elements
Jan Brasna wrote: Dwain, please read the preceding replies before posting, this was already mentioned, and it is one of the older and not the top notch solutions. sorry, i read what i had and replied. what then would be a more standards way of it? dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] teaching students developing to web standards
Rick Faaberg wrote: Any lesson plans out there, by chance? :-) what you think is the best way to get the information is your lesson plan. go with what you know and in what order you do it. when you decide to teach, you are taking on a serious responsibility and making your own outline how to disseminate the information in a logical format is the baby you have to birth. good luck in your endeavor. dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] teaching students developing to web standards
Christian Montoya wrote: Actually, I forgot about this link too. This is a class at Cornell University that teaches XHTML 1.0 Strict. Here's the link: http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu as was brought to my attention not too long ago, if your pages are strict, then the future life of the pages is shortened with any changes to the xhtml recommendations. the transitional doctype seems to be a better choice because it will last longer than the strict doctype. i think someone on this list brought this to my attention. dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] td != div
Geoff Pack wrote: Some reasons for div-itis: 1. Columns. table cell = div is wrong, but usually columns = divs is correct. now we are really getting into semantics. i began designing via wysiwyg and tables. when i made the change to html/css i was having problems with positioning and other browser quirks. i didn't really understand positioning with css. i knew i didn't want to go back to tables and i knew i could figure this thing out, but how do you get someone who is coming from a tables environment to understand how to use css for positioning? you need to relate to them in terms they understand and teach them the cross-over names for them. for me, div=cell and viewport=table. i reasoned that with css i could put that cell=box anywhere on the page i wanted using css rules and i was not constrained by a bunch of other connected cells. this reasoning helped much to understand in terms from where i was coming to get to where i wanted to be. to say what you did above is correct for some one who understands the language of css, but does a disservice if you want to convert someone from tables to html/css. it was easier for me to grasp css when i understood the freedom i had over tables by using boxes and positioning them where i wanted with this epiphany. then i found out through the use of the float property that i could take blocks of content and put them together like a jigsaw puzzle to create my design. my feeling is that if comparison language was used, many would see the benefits of html/css over tables and would be more likely to make the change, because they would understand quicker what is being done and how to do it. cheers, dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
Stevio wrote: I disagree with the point about revisiting the design just because CSS is not up to the job. The web is a visual medium and we should be able to design pages to look how we want, with the condition of making sure they are readable and suitable for those accessing them. i found this to be an interesting article: http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/good_oil/dao/index.html cheers, dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
Stevio wrote: Interesting yes. But two points. One is that it assumes the user knows how to change their font size. I suspect many do not. The default layout has to be the best one, as over 90% of the time that is what will be viewed and it will not be changed by the user. i'll agree, most users don't know how to change the font sizes, but a designer/developer should not assume such for accessibility reasons. Secondly, their web site uses a fixed width layout that does not fit when the browser window is 800px wide. touche'! dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
Stevio wrote: When you create columns using CSS, you are creating a table-like look, are you not? Is CSS3 going to reinvent the wheel? sure you are creating a table-like look, but there is not as much markup with css as there is with tables, in most cases. with html and css you don't have the need for empty cells in your design as with tables, thus, less markup. plus you have more control over positioning elements than with tables; and you can design with overlapping elements with html and css; i don't see the ability to do that with tables. i used to design with tables and found it unsatisfactory, but since i was wysiwyging it, i didn't know of a better way, plus css was in its infancy. when i made the change to tableless design i had problems until the light came on and i realized that positioning was done with cells if you will. i couldn't do a table layout if my mother's life was on the line. i don't think that css3 is going to reinvent the wheel, but it will allow for better, more sophisticated presentational tools, like being able to use svg as a background image. i can't wait for that one! dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox
Drake, Ted C. wrote: Hi all If you haven't read Patrick Lauke's article on using the web developer toolbar, you should check it out. I thought I knew the toolbar but he's introduced several features that have made it into my daily work habit. http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue44/lauke/ snip On Sat, 2005-09-03 at 23:40 -0400, Donna Jones wrote: does anyone have an url for this? tried finding it on moz and couldn't and really would like to try it out. http://accessibar.mozdev.org/ /snip ted, this is an accessibility tool bar; quite different from the web dev tool bar. dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox
Donna Jones wrote: Yes, and I was the one that asked for the link to it. After I got there found out to get it to read the page one has to hover w/ a mouse - so totally unlike a screen reader. I think hovering with a mouse could be helpful to some people but it doesn't give one an idea of how the page is read by a screen reader. i didn't download/install it. when i initially posted the list i said that it gives you a sense of what a screen reader reads the page. it is my understanding that a screen reader will also read title attributes on links and alt attributes on images. although you have to hover the mouse and it is not as sophisticated as a screen reader, there are some other features for accessibility trials. i haven't played with it much, but i will when i get some free time. cheers, dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] absolute positioning in IE
Anders Nawroth wrote: Kenny Graham skrev: Make sure the page validates. IE should render that fine unless it's in quirks mode. If it validates and still doesnt work, post a link and I'll have a look. The pages render in CSS1Compat (standards) mode. you have one error in your html. hth, dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners
Herrod, Lisa wrote: I think this is pretty good and easy to follow: http://www.w3schools.com/ Also I know Westciv have just begun their XHTML Free online tutorial, http://www.westciv.com/courses/free/index.html don't forget html writer's guild. http://www.hwg.org/ dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners
Gene Falck wrote: Hi Dwain, You wrote: some people refer to p as a p tag, but it is the p element. Since someone might wish to refer to the tag as written in the page coding or to refer to the paragraph element itself both possibilities seem open. IMO a lack of precision is likely to result from allowing only one referential mode. i see what you mean, then it is the usage of the term rather than naming the element? tag? or the tag is the p, /p and the element is the pcontent/p? dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Online Resources for HTML Beginners
John Allsopp wrote: John, you are probably lucky you got one :-) Just to note that we've got fourteen posts and only three recommendations of online resources... there are loads of me too sites, I guess the one I'd really recommend is http://www.htmlhelp.com/ Like many of he best sites, an oldie but a real goodie. It has spawned many imitators. ok, here's another one. ascii codes: http://www.ascii.cl/htmlcodes.htm dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox
Rick Faaberg wrote: On 8/23/05 10:25 PM dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: i just downloaded the accessibar at the mozdev web site. it's got a built in reader; so if you have speakers or a headset you can hear how accessible your page is in a reader. it's not superior quality audio, but it definitely gives you a sense of what's on the page. the tool bar is for folks with accessibility issues. maybe i'm getting into gadgets for accessibility, but as a visual artist and web designer, i'm caring more about standards and accessibility more each day. check it out, it's a cool firefox/mozilla extension. Is there some way to install and execute on Mac OSX? Anybody has done it? i would assume so, it's a browser extension, so it should function on mac osx. dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox
Rick Faaberg wrote: I would assume that also, but the installation complained greatly about my Java environment and then I had to abort installation. that's interesting, especially if you have the latest java environment. i think there is a link to contact the owner of the project on one of the pages for the accessibar. you might want to go that route. dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox
Joshua Street wrote: As an aside, I imagine this text-to-speech engine would only be a component of Sun's JRE? Are any other JREs in use on mainstream platforms, so far as people are aware? The other pertinent question would be what versions introduced this functionality, as alluded to in Patrick's message. the install instructions call for jre 5. dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] weird three menu on IE 5
setiawan77th wrote: Can someone be so kind helping me to my problem with three menu. It's work o IE6 and Mozzila. But some how it look weird in IE5 and IE5.5 can you supply a url so we can look? dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox (article on Chris Pederick's FF ext Web Developer toolbar)
Geoff Deering wrote: Patrick H. Lauke has written this article (http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue44/lauke/) on Chris Pederick's Web Developer toolbar http://www.chrispederick.com/work/firefox/webdeveloper/, a tool Derek Featherstone also mentions as a great aid for web standards development. i just downloaded the accessibar at the mozdev web site. it's got a built in reader; so if you have speakers or a headset you can hear how accessible your page is in a reader. it's not superior quality audio, but it definitely gives you a sense of what's on the page. the tool bar is for folks with accessibility issues. maybe i'm getting into gadgets for accessibility, but as a visual artist and web designer, i'm caring more about standards and accessibility more each day. check it out, it's a cool firefox/mozilla extension. dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Center aligning links with a specified height
Adam Burmister (DSL AK) wrote: Hi everybody, Long time reader - first time poster here. I've currently got a doozie that I've been struggling with for hours. The final product looks simple enough, but I can't for the life of me get it - help me WSG, you're my only hope. is there a url where we can take a look? dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] apologies and Microsoft question
Drake, Ted C. wrote: Did I mention how cool the bag was? Must like IE7...Must like IE7... Must like IE7 For some reason, this keeps repeating in my mind every time I pick up the magnificently useful and hip bag. dunt, dunt, dunt, another one bites the dust. ;^) -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] vertical alignment
Duncan Stigwood wrote:
Have I given up too quickly on 'vertical-align'? Is there something
i'm missing which is preventing it from working?
if memory serves me well, which it tricks me sometimes, i think you can
do this in your css:
{display:table-cell;vertical-align:center;}
someone correct me if i'm wrong, please.
hth,
dwain
--
Dwain Alford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com
The Savior replied;
There is no such thing as sin;...
'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala'
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] vertical alignment
designer wrote:
But it doesn't work in IE . . . , naturally.
Bob
dwain alford wrote:
Duncan Stigwood wrote:
Have I given up too quickly on 'vertical-align'? Is there something
i'm missing which is preventing it from working?
if memory serves me well, which it tricks me sometimes, i think you
can do this in your css:
{display:table-cell;vertical-align:center;}
figures, but at least it works in ff.
dwain
--
Dwain Alford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com
The Savior replied;
There is no such thing as sin;...
'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala'
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] javascript and no script -- best practices
thanks for the citehelp/cite with my last question. now i have a
page with javascript opening a new window from a link. the reason for
this is that i want to allow the visitor to close the window and still
be at the site from whence they came. my problem and question is. what
is the best practice for allowing someone to click the link and go to
the site with js disabled?
here's the script:
a href=JavaScript: void(0) onclick=window.open('pagename.htm',
'_blank', 'optionlist')link text/a
hope all of you are having a smashing weekend.
dwain
--
Dwain Alford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com
The Teacher answered:
There is no sin.
'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala'
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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**
Re: [WSG] javascript and no script -- best practices
Lea de Groot wrote: How about: a href=/dir/to/target.html onclick=return !window.open(this.href, 'awindow', 'optionlist');link text/a This well work nicely if JS is off :) I think the main 'debatable point' is whether or not negating the window.open works. (written from memory - needs testing) I like: http://www.sitepoint.com/print/perfect-pop-up as reference material. HIH Lea thanks lea for your quick response. do i insert the js (all of it) as written with the this.href being the page i want to go to? dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Teacher answered: There is no sin. 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] stink emails
well i thought it would never happen to me, but someone hijacked my [EMAIL PROTECTED] account and is sending out a virus. dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Teacher answered: There is no sin. 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] javascript and no script -- best practices
Lea de Groot wrote:
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:04:15 -0500, dwain alford wrote:
thanks lea for your quick response. do i insert the js (all of it)
as written with the this.href being the page i want to go to?
No, no - thats the whole 'trick' to this.
You only type the real url (in my example '/dir/to/target.html') once,
in the regular href= position.
Then the javascript uses an internal property 'this.href' to get the
href from the current object.
Its quite nifty.
So, where you had:
a href=JavaScript: void(0) onclick=window.open('pagename.htm',
'_blank', 'optionlist')link text/a
I would put:
a href=pagename.htm onclick=return !window.open(this.href,
'awindow', 'optionlist');link text/a
this means that folks without javascript effectively get:
a href=pagename.htmlink text/a
and people with js get the popup.
and because we return a false when the popup executes correctly they do
not get moved on in the current window.
What a long explanation for such a simple concept :)
Lea
ok, all is clear. i don't know nothin' bout writtin no javascript lea.
--
Dwain Alford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com
The Teacher answered:
There is no sin.
'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala'
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for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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Re: THREAD CLOSED Re: [WSG] stink emails
Lea de Groot wrote: On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 05:33:02 -0500, dwain alford wrote: well i thought it would never happen to me, but someone hijacked my [EMAIL PROTECTED] account and is sending out a virus. If you wish to discuss this please do so offlist. warmly, Lea ~ with concerned looks in Dwain's direction sorry, i just wanted folks to know about the possibility of getting such a message. my extreme apologies. dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Teacher answered: There is no sin. 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] javascript and no script -- best practices
Lea de Groot wrote: I would put: a href=pagename.htm onclick=return !window.open(this.href, 'awindow', 'optionlist');link text/a this works ok, terrific would be if the window that opened allowed you to maximize it or opened maximized with scroll bars. the page with this code is up at: http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/resources.html dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Teacher answered: There is no sin. 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] javascript and no script -- best practices
Lea de Groot wrote: I would put: a href=pagename.htm onclick=return !window.open(this.href, 'awindow', 'optionlist');link text/a this means that folks without javascript effectively get: a href=pagename.htmlink text/a and people with js get the popup. and because we return a false when the popup executes correctly they do not get moved on in the current window. What a long explanation for such a simple concept :) thanks for the snippet. the window opens, but it is small and does not offer a maximization setting or scroll bars. what do i need to add to the code for the window to open maximized or be able to be maximized? i realize that this is coding 101, but i'm coming from the remedial coding group. ;^) dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Teacher answered: There is no sin. 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] javascript and no script -- best practices
Jan Brasna wrote: a href=pagename.htm onclick=return !window.open(this.href, 'awindow', 'optionlist');link text/a thanks for the snippet. the window opens, but it is small and does not offer a maximization setting or scroll bars. what do i need to add to the code for the window to open maximized or be able to be maximized? Leave out the 'optionlist' parameter. jan, very much appreciate the words. they did the trick, of course you knew that. will you point me in the direction for my next addition? i want the visitor to be able to tab through the links. i don't know how this is done. references? dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Teacher answered: There is no sin. 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] tabbing through links
again, thanks to all for the responses to the new page opener script. i feel like columbo, for those familiar with him, but i've got just one more question. i would like for visitors, with and without scripting enabled, to be able to tab through the links on the page. how would i accomplish this? i did a google and didn't have much luck. the only item i found, i didn't understand how to apply it. may i ask again for help with this matter? dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Teacher answered: There is no sin. 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] tabbing through links
Bruce wrote: Tabbing of course happans automatically. However, on a three column layout I added a top hidden nav that showed on focus that linked to each column so the visitor could choose the column to tab down. Is this what you mean? If so, unless someone here has the info at hand I will have to look it up. i had not thought of that. give me a clue and i'll try my hand at searching for it. if i have any problems, i'll be in touch. i love standards, it's so much fun! cheers, dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] tabbing through links
Andy Kirkwood | Motive wrote: Watch out for IE keyboard navigation bug. Depending on your method for setting the destination anchor, things can go a little awry. For details, see: http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/anchor.php Cheers, thanks for the heads up. got it bookmarked for later perusal. i checked out the tabbing in ie6 and it seemed to function as i expected. imagine that. cheers, dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] tabbing through links
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also See Keyboard Navigation and Internet Explorer : http://juicystudio.com/article/ie-keyboard-navigation.php thanks steven. this is really what i had in mind when i initially asked the question; the tab index method. all seems to be fine in ie6/pc. if you have a mac would you check it out in ie5.2? http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/sandbox/resources.html thanks for all of the help folks. i'm overwhelmed. cheers, dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; There is no such thing as sin;... 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox Greyscale Extension
Marcel Pociot wrote: Hallo zusammen! Ich suche nach einer Erweiterung für Firefox , die es ermöglicht eine Webseite in Graustufen anzeigen zu lassen. Im Bezug auf Barrierefreiheit ist die Darstellung der Farben in Grautönen mit ausreichendem Kontrast eine Prio 1. Allerdings ist es etwas umständlich von dem Bildschirm ständig Screenshots zu machen und diese in Grautöne umzuwandeln. Wenn es eine einfache Firefox-Plugin Lösung geben würde, wär ich sehr erfreut. Google hat mir leider nicht weitergeholfen. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Marcel Pociot Marcel Pociot | e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Xbyte GmbH | 40699 erkrath | trills 23 _http://www.xbyte.de_ http://www.xbyte.de/ | tel.: 02104-138 49 30 | fax: 02104-138 49 34 marcel, http://www.nils.org.au/ais/ hier ist eine toolbar fur internet explorer das wille tun was du wunchen. steven sagen er arbeiten auf die toolbar fur firefox. veile gruss, dwain ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
