Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Just wanted to clarify, I didn't say that, I was arguing a completely different point ;). Stephen On 3 Feb 2006, at 21:59, Joshua Street wrote: Yes, but can you use an anchor fragment to link to a point in an Acrobat document? The other thing is why would we even bother with that when we have hypertext? On one site I did recently, the client wanted a PDF brochure with _identical_ information to what was in hypertext included. The PDF brochure in question was some non-standard size, so people couldn't even print it, yet the client wanted it there (probably because they'd paid some designer too much money for it). It's useless content, and it's achieved easier and better with hypertext. Why? I do see PDF's applications (disseminating print documents that universally render the same -- though they don't ALWAYS look the same, but we won't go there), just not as a markup replacement. Felix's link to Alertbox is great, btw... On 2/3/06, Ray Cauchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: At 10:47 PM 3/02/2006, Stephen Stagg wrote: PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page (rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) PDF's can and do contain hyperlinks and bookmarks, whether made in Acrobat or dynamically generated via PHP et al... Best Regards Ray Cauchi Manager/Lead Developer ( T W E E K ! ) PO Box 15 Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 2782 | p:+61 2 4757 1600 | f:+61 2 4757 3808 | m:0414 270 400 | e:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | w: http://www.tweek.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Yes, but can you use an anchor fragment to link to a point in an Acrobat document? The other thing is why would we even bother with that when we have hypertext? On one site I did recently, the client wanted a PDF brochure with _identical_ information to what was in hypertext included. The PDF brochure in question was some non-standard size, so people couldn't even print it, yet the client wanted it there (probably because they'd paid some designer too much money for it). It's useless content, and it's achieved easier and better with hypertext. Why? I do see PDF's applications (disseminating print documents that universally render the same -- though they don't ALWAYS look the same, but we won't go there), just not as a markup replacement. Felix's link to Alertbox is great, btw... On 2/3/06, Ray Cauchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 10:47 PM 3/02/2006, Stephen Stagg wrote: > > PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page > (rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) > > PDF's can and do contain hyperlinks and bookmarks, whether made in Acrobat > or dynamically generated via PHP et al... > > > > > Best Regards > > Ray Cauchi > Manager/Lead Developer > > > ( T W E E K ! ) > > PO Box 15 > Wentworth Falls > NSW Australia 2782 > > | p:+61 2 4757 1600 > | f:+61 2 4757 3808 > | m:0414 270 400 > | e:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > | w: http://www.tweek.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Stephen Stagg wrote: > I (usually) like the way that PDF files tend to open in the browser > window. Many people I know also are used to this and it doesn't > bother them. You say that users "expect the way to return to web > content ". A pdf online IS web content, you may argue that what you > meant was Hypertext content but the 'average' user doesn't think like > that. This user expects things opened in a web browser to adapt as natural web content does, so this user agrees with Jakob: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20030714.html -- "Love your neighbor as yourself."Mark 12:31 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
At 10:47 PM 3/02/2006, Stephen Stagg wrote: PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page (rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) PDF's can and do contain hyperlinks and bookmarks, whether made in Acrobat or dynamically generated via PHP et al... Best Regards Ray Cauchi Manager/Lead Developer ( T W E E K ! ) PO Box 15 Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 2782 | p:+61 2 4757 1600 | f: +61 2 4757 3808 | m: 0414 270 400 | e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | w: http://www.tweek.com.au
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
At 10:47 PM 3/02/2006, Stephen Stagg wrote: PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page (rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) PDF's can and do contain hyperlinks and bookmarks, whether made in Acrobat or dynamically generated via PHP et al... Best Regards Ray Cauchi Manager/Lead Developer ( T W E E K ! ) PO Box 15 Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 2782 | p:+61 2 4757 1600 | f: +61 2 4757 3808 | m: 0414 270 400 | e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | w: http://www.tweek.com.au
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
I think you're mistaking your experiences of users for all users. I don't know anyone who uses JAWS, doesn't mean that people don't tho. I (usually) like the way that PDF files tend to open in the browser window. Many people I know also are used to this and it doesn't bother them. You say that users "expect the way to return to web content ". A pdf online IS web content, you may argue that what you meant was Hypertext content but the 'average' user doesn't think like that. When I am browsing, I'm looking for information, be it in a word document, PDF document or HTML document. The ability for my browser to navigate between these just by using the back/forward/ history options is very useful. Now, I'm not saying that my experience represents the norm, but I don't think that you, as a designer, should try to dictate in which application your data loads. If sometimes a PDF file opens in the browser, other times in a new window, A user will become confused and this is something we should always work to stop. Besides, breaking a delivery mechanism to create a non-standard behavior is hardly a standards based approach. :) Stephen. On 2 Feb 2006, at 21:58, Joshua Street wrote: Yes, it's a good thing. PDF's aren't web pages. This is the distinction between a web site and a web application: applications are 'expected' to have 'application-like' behaviour (such as new windows, etc.). Also, PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page (rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) so to expect it to appear AS a web page is flawed: there is no way of navigating out of it but to close the window, or press Back. Users (correctly, IMO) identify Acrobat as a separate, non-web application, and hence expect the way to return to web content is to close Acrobat (i.e. if you've loaded it in a browser, the browser window). They're not going to look for the Back button here. Also I wasn't aware of way to override browser object settings for PDF files easily -- by all means feel free to correct me, but I doubt very much users do this by 'preference' one way or another. Josh On 2/3/06, Stephen Stagg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 2 Feb 2006, at 20:57, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the server to send it as an octet stream). Doing so would override the local browser's setting. Is this 'a good thing'? I would have thought that trying to force the browser to do a particular, non-default, action is rather like setting your text- size in PX and then writing a script to force Firefox to use those font-sizes. YOU may not like the way that PDFs open in the current window, but if that is the case then configure your browser to open Acrobat documents in a new window. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:14 pm, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: > Marilyn Langfeld wrote: > > And Adobe is adding accessibility > > aids (depends on the designer to implement them though). > > Worth mentioning though that the accessibility enhancements (like the > way that a screenreader can access the content of a PDF in a sensible > manner) only apply to the standalone Adobe Reader application, not the > browser plugin mode (last time I checked, anyway). And do the accessibility enhancements include a drastic reduction in file size? In my experience, PDF files are much larger than an HTML document with the same content, and there are still /many/ users on dialup connections out there . . . . Alexis. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Marilyn Langfeld wrote: And Adobe is adding accessibility aids (depends on the designer to implement them though). Worth mentioning though that the accessibility enhancements (like the way that a screenreader can access the content of a PDF in a sensible manner) only apply to the standalone Adobe Reader application, not the browser plugin mode (last time I checked, anyway). -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
My biggest concern is PDF's lack of hypertext structure. At present, it can do outbound links, it can even do web forms, but there's no way to link to an anchor within a document. Hence, to address it as though it were just another webpage is, to me, detaching hypertext from the web. HTML = HyperText Markup Language, whilst PDF = Portable Document Format. Documents are separate to Hypertext in that they are defined, and, as I perceive it related in purely linear fashion -- parallel fashion, even -- to the web (you download it, you read. No interaction.) PDF is getting more feature-rich, sure, but is it supplanting markup? For "visually complex documents/presentations", I'd _personally_ lean more towards hybrid markup/Flash (with appropriate accessibility controls) than PDF, unless a PDF already existed and was accessible (for example, large, complex documents such as annual reports, etc.). Forms, on the other hand, seem to be pointless in a PDF unless it's intended as a hypertext replacement -- which (IMO) it shouldn't me. *$0.05 expired. Insert more to continue.* Josh On 2/3/06, Marilyn Langfeld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm going to stick my neck out here folks... > > PDF presentation on the web is getting better. Example: http:// > www.bamagazine.com/?Click=40472 I tried to download one of the pdfs > (in Safari 2.0.3) and it opened instead. I actually preferred reading > it in Safari to opening Acrobat and reading it there. Surprised myself. > > I wouldn't want pdf to supplant HTML web pages, but for those > visually complex documents/presentations that don't work well in > HTML, I can see a use for pdf display in the browser. And Adobe is > adding accessibility aids (depends on the designer to implement them > though). I think I prefer this to Flash. Soon, I'm afraid we'll see > lots of Flash and pdf combined, so get ready. One day you may wish > there were more plain pdfs, instead of whatever hybrid Flash/pdf > becomes. > > Best regards, > > Marilyn Langfeld > Langfeldesigns > http://www.langfeldesigns.com > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > > -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
I'm going to stick my neck out here folks... PDF presentation on the web is getting better. Example: http:// www.bamagazine.com/?Click=40472 I tried to download one of the pdfs (in Safari 2.0.3) and it opened instead. I actually preferred reading it in Safari to opening Acrobat and reading it there. Surprised myself. I wouldn't want pdf to supplant HTML web pages, but for those visually complex documents/presentations that don't work well in HTML, I can see a use for pdf display in the browser. And Adobe is adding accessibility aids (depends on the designer to implement them though). I think I prefer this to Flash. Soon, I'm afraid we'll see lots of Flash and pdf combined, so get ready. One day you may wish there were more plain pdfs, instead of whatever hybrid Flash/pdf becomes. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Ah, righto. Linux user here, apologies... it's obviously simpler on other desktop systems ;-) On 2/3/06, Patrick H. Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Joshua Street wrote: > > > Also I wasn't aware of way to override browser object settings for PDF > > files easily -- by all means feel free to correct me, but I doubt very > > much users do this by 'preference' one way or another. > > It's something that need to be set in Acrobat's preferences (under the > Internet category, uncheck "Display PDF in browser") > > P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Joshua Street wrote: Also I wasn't aware of way to override browser object settings for PDF files easily -- by all means feel free to correct me, but I doubt very much users do this by 'preference' one way or another. It's something that need to be set in Acrobat's preferences (under the Internet category, uncheck "Display PDF in browser") P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Yes, it's a good thing. PDF's aren't web pages. This is the distinction between a web site and a web application: applications are 'expected' to have 'application-like' behaviour (such as new windows, etc.). Also, PDF content rarely has the _behaviour_ of a web page (rich hyperlink structures/inbound/outbound links, etc) so to expect it to appear AS a web page is flawed: there is no way of navigating out of it but to close the window, or press Back. Users (correctly, IMO) identify Acrobat as a separate, non-web application, and hence expect the way to return to web content is to close Acrobat (i.e. if you've loaded it in a browser, the browser window). They're not going to look for the Back button here. Also I wasn't aware of way to override browser object settings for PDF files easily -- by all means feel free to correct me, but I doubt very much users do this by 'preference' one way or another. Josh On 2/3/06, Stephen Stagg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On 2 Feb 2006, at 20:57, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: > > (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the > > server to send it as an octet stream). > > Doing so would override the local browser's setting. Is this 'a good > thing'? I would have thought that trying to force the browser to do > a particular, non-default, action is rather like setting your text- > size in PX and then writing a script to force Firefox to use those > font-sizes. > > YOU may not like the way that PDFs open in the current window, but if > that is the case then configure your browser to open Acrobat > documents in a new window. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
On 2 Feb 2006, at 20:57, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the server to send it as an octet stream). Doing so would override the local browser's setting. Is this 'a good thing'? I would have thought that trying to force the browser to do a particular, non-default, action is rather like setting your text- size in PX and then writing a script to force Firefox to use those font-sizes. YOU may not like the way that PDFs open in the current window, but if that is the case then configure your browser to open Acrobat documents in a new window. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Another option is to copy the text out of the PDF and stick it on the page. I personally hate PDF's on sites (annoying to read). Especially multi-page versions. Just think how that text would help your page rank for that page if it wasn't a PDF...just a thought! Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C] wrote: You can embed the PDF with code like this: Eek...it's already bad enough when a PDF opens in the browser-based viewer, rather than the full Acrobat application. I'd say, as it's not a web native format, that the best strategy would be to just link to the PDF (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the server to send it as an octet stream). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C] wrote: You can embed the PDF with code like this: Eek...it's already bad enough when a PDF opens in the browser-based viewer, rather than the full Acrobat application. I'd say, as it's not a web native format, that the best strategy would be to just link to the PDF (and ideally force a download via appropriate MIME settings on the server to send it as an octet stream). -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Angus at InfoForce Services ink wired: > The PDF file is an article to be posted on > a web site. What is the best web standard > approach and instructions You can embed the PDF with code like this: [object classid="clsid:CA8A9780-280D-11CF-A24D-44455354" width=??? height=??? id=myPDF] [param name="SRC" value="myPDF.pdf"] [/object] -- Dwacon www.dwacon.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] PDF files on web site
Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: This is probvably off topic for this list so please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I hav a nine page PDF file loaded into Acrobat 7.0. And when I try "File" /Save as text" the text file is not good. Define "not good". If it's "the text is all over the place", this could well be caused by an untagged PDF with missing hints for reading order (if it's a multi-column article). -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] PDF files on web site
This is probvably off topic for this list so please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I hav a nine page PDF file loaded into Acrobat 7.0. And when I try "File" /Save as text" the text file is not good. The PDF file is an article to be posted on a web site. What is the best web standard approach and instructions on what to do (please)? Is there a Windows XP Home SP2 software conversion program or utility to download and install? Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
