RE: [WSG] links with same names
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of Edwart Visser > Sent: Thursday, 4 November 2004 7:35 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [WSG] links with same names > > > Ok, but then there is the answer, isnt it? > > Take a look at this example... http://www.flashpro.nl/wsg/ > > Doesn't this work in screenreaders then? This looks like a pretty good solution to me. Works in JAWS. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] links with same names
Ok, but then there is the answer, isnt it?
Take a look at this example... http://www.flashpro.nl/wsg/
Doesn't this work in screenreaders then?
Gr,
Edwart
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: donderdag 4 november 2004 09:19
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] links with same names
Edwart Visser wrote:
> Just an idea... I don't know how screenreaders manage this but take a
> look at this:
>
>
> .readmoreTitle { display: none; }
>
Unfortunately not a viable option, as some screenreaders then completely
miss out on it.
http://www.google.com/search?q=screenreaders+%22display%3Anone%22
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re-
+ dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
**
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Re: [WSG] links with same names
.readmoreTitle { text-indent: -9000px; }
might be better for screen readers.
Edwart Visser wrote:
Just an idea... I don't know how screenreaders manage this but take a look
at this:
.readmoreTitle { display: none; }
Read more
class="readmoreTitle">: [title]
Would this be an option?
Edwart Visser
Designer
Wisdom TMLC
T + 31 [0]592 305 000
F + 31 [0]592 305 026
M + 31 [0]6 254 14 980
W www.wisdomtmlc.com
Online onderzoek? Kijk op www.surv-e.nl!
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: donderdag 4 november 2004 01:34
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] links with same names
So the ability to have the titles of links read out by screenreaders
can be influenced by a setting?
Relying on that setting is dangerous, don't you think? If the users
have the reading of title attributes turned off, they won't hear any
difference between the links. In fact, no users of screenreaders I have
met so far could hear the title attributes.
Good point Andreas, that is why i think that title attributes should be used
with caution, if the text is important don't put it in the title attribute.
plain text is best.
Also remember that title attributes are device dependent, keyboard users
cannot access them.
A reasonable way around the issue is what they do on the age/sydney morning
herald They have the heading as a link and and also a "more" link (both
point to the full text of the article)
Example:
Police arrest possible sex attacker
[11:30am] A Sydney rail commuter believes he saw someone resembling the
identikit picture of a serial sex attacker. more
it would be better if the more link had a title attribute, but the main
point is that screen reader users have at least one clearly stated link
to the article.
In reference to to title content:
I think it is better to have repeated words such as "more" or "full text"
at the end of the title text rather than the beginning
Examples:
america has spoken - full text
police arrest sex attacker -full text
As when read out of context the important and defining information is
"frontloaded" and allows easier identification of a particular link with a
list of links.
with regards
Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
National Information & Library Service (NILS)
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
National Information Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] links with same names
Edwart Visser wrote:
Just an idea... I don't know how screenreaders manage this but take a look
at this:
.readmoreTitle { display: none; }
Unfortunately not a viable option, as some screenreaders then completely
miss out on it.
http://www.google.com/search?q=screenreaders+%22display%3Anone%22
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
RE: [WSG] links with same names
Just an idea... I don't know how screenreaders manage this but take a look
at this:
.readmoreTitle { display: none; }
Read more: [title]
Would this be an option?
Edwart Visser
Designer
Wisdom TMLC
T + 31 [0]592 305 000
F + 31 [0]592 305 026
M + 31 [0]6 254 14 980
W www.wisdomtmlc.com
Online onderzoek? Kijk op www.surv-e.nl!
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: donderdag 4 november 2004 01:34
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] links with same names
>So the ability to have the titles of links read out by screenreaders
>can be influenced by a setting?
>Relying on that setting is dangerous, don't you think? If the users
>have the reading of title attributes turned off, they won't hear any
>difference between the links. In fact, no users of screenreaders I have
>met so far could hear the title attributes.
Good point Andreas, that is why i think that title attributes should be used
with caution, if the text is important don't put it in the title attribute.
plain text is best.
Also remember that title attributes are device dependent, keyboard users
cannot access them.
A reasonable way around the issue is what they do on the age/sydney morning
herald They have the heading as a link and and also a "more" link (both
point to the full text of the article)
Example:
Police arrest possible sex attacker
[11:30am] A Sydney rail commuter believes he saw someone resembling the
identikit picture of a serial sex attacker. more
it would be better if the more link had a title attribute, but the main
point is that screen reader users have at least one clearly stated link
to the article.
In reference to to title content:
I think it is better to have repeated words such as "more" or "full text"
at the end of the title text rather than the beginning
Examples:
america has spoken - full text
police arrest sex attacker -full text
As when read out of context the important and defining information is
"frontloaded" and allows easier identification of a particular link with a
list of links.
with regards
Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
National Information & Library Service (NILS)
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
National Information Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
Re: [WSG] links with same names
you could also use a "text image" such as gif or jpg with an alt like: alt = Link :: LINK NAME HERE -- Brian Ussery beta testing: [EMAIL PROTECTED] b e ussery imagery co. athens - atlanta - asheville http://www.beussery.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 706.296.3446 905.935.4396f ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] links with same names
>So the ability to have the titles of links read out by screenreaders >can be influenced by a setting? >Relying on that setting is dangerous, don't you think? If the users >have the reading of title attributes turned off, they won't hear any >difference between the links. In fact, no users of screenreaders I have >met so far could hear the title attributes. Good point Andreas, that is why i think that title attributes should be used with caution, if the text is important don't put it in the title attribute. plain text is best. Also remember that title attributes are device dependent, keyboard users cannot access them. A reasonable way around the issue is what they do on the age/sydney morning herald They have the heading as a link and and also a "more" link (both point to the full text of the article) Example: Police arrest possible sex attacker [11:30am] A Sydney rail commuter believes he saw someone resembling the identikit picture of a serial sex attacker. more it would be better if the more link had a title attribute, but the main point is that screen reader users have at least one clearly stated link to the article. In reference to to title content: I think it is better to have repeated words such as "more" or "full text" at the end of the title text rather than the beginning Examples: america has spoken - full text police arrest sex attacker -full text As when read out of context the important and defining information is "frontloaded" and allows easier identification of a particular link with a list of links. with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information & Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] links with same names
Andreas Boehmer wrote: So the ability to have the titles of links read out by screenreaders can be influenced by a setting? Relying on that setting is dangerous, don't you think? Of course it is. The best option by far, in my opinion, is having the news item title as the actual link, but you were looking for alternatives. It would also be conceivable to use a small image that signifies the "read entire article" concept, and expanding it fully in the alt attribute alt="read this article: [TITLE OF ARTICLE]" - or using CSS image replacement for this purpose. > If the users have the reading of title attributes turned off, they won't hear any difference between the links. In fact, no users of screenreaders I have met so far could hear the title attributes. Just to throw in a devil's advocate type comment: the onus is also on the user to know how to use their AT, and how to configure it properly (although I'd say the screenreader developers are to blame for mostly having this option OFF by default...I'm looking at you, FreedomScientifc) Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] links with same names
> you can make use of the title attribute to make the links unique, while > still "visually" having them appear short and similar. > > read > article > > best practice with regards to titles suggests that the link text should > be repeated in the title itself. also be aware that in the case of > screenreaders the output users will hear depends on the verbosity > settings they have enabled. So the ability to have the titles of links read out by screenreaders can be influenced by a setting? Relying on that setting is dangerous, don't you think? If the users have the reading of title attributes turned off, they won't hear any difference between the links. In fact, no users of screenreaders I have met so far could hear the title attributes. > Patrick H. Lauke > _ > re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively > [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] > www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk > http://redux.deviantart.com > > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > > > Andreas Boehmer User Experience Consultant Phone: (03) 9417 0468 Mobile: (0411) 097 038 http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] links with same names
Predictable is a good thing. Expectations met! Usability has a lot to do with predictability. The 'kiss' principle is always a good place to start. > The whole Find out more about ... at the bottom of each page looks too > predictable. You can adjust the words to suit the site e.g.: Find out more about More about Read More on Full text: "" Depends on how your s are written and how you are accessing them (hand coding or dynamic content output). If it's a custom built CMS you could even add a data field specifically for this link (a short title maybe). If it's hand coded then you can write a friendly link each time. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] links with same names
Richard Czeiger wrote: The whole Find out more about ... at the bottom of each page looks too predictable. since when is "predictable" a bad thing when it comes to usability and user interfaces? Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] links with same names
you can make use of the title attribute to make the links unique, while still "visually" having them appear short and similar. read article best practice with regards to titles suggests that the link text should be repeated in the title itself. also be aware that in the case of screenreaders the output users will hear depends on the verbosity settings they have enabled. Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] links with same names
Personally, coming up with links that don't end in click here at the end of an article or section is something I find really difficult... The whole Find out more about ... at the bottom of each page looks too predictable. :o( Richard - Original Message - From: "Andreas Boehmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:44 AM Subject: [WSG] links with same names One problem I come across regularly is the issue of not giving multiple links the same names. Let's say I have got a list of dynamically created news items, each one of them having a summary and a link to "read more". Obviously this is inaccessible: 10 links all saying "read more" is not terribly helpful to anybody. But I would love to know how people solve this problem? Personally, I sometimes make the title of the news item the actual link, but I feel this is not user-friendly enough. Another option is to make the "read me" link unique by including the title of the news item in it (e.g. "Read more about the new Benchmarking for Educational Effectiveness Program"). The length of this link shows for itself that it is not the best solution either. Has anybody come up with better ways of solving this problem? Andreas Boehmer User Experience Consultant Phone: (03) 9417 0468 Mobile: (0411) 097 038 http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] links with same names
One problem I come across regularly is the issue of not giving multiple links the same names. Let's say I have got a list of dynamically created news items, each one of them having a summary and a link to "read more". Obviously this is inaccessible: 10 links all saying "read more" is not terribly helpful to anybody. But I would love to know how people solve this problem? Personally, I sometimes make the title of the news item the actual link, but I feel this is not user-friendly enough. Another option is to make the "read me" link unique by including the title of the news item in it (e.g. "Read more about the new Benchmarking for Educational Effectiveness Program"). The length of this link shows for itself that it is not the best solution either. Has anybody come up with better ways of solving this problem? Andreas Boehmer User Experience Consultant Phone: (03) 9417 0468 Mobile: (0411) 097 038 http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
