Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
On Wed, 16 May 2007 10:28:41 +0100, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Today i just told them to go back to using table based layouts and i will restrict my designs accordingly- i cant listen to the whining anymore. What would you have done in this situation? I just tell clients I have no knowledge of using tables for layout. But then, I am retired and can afford to choose what I work on. I suggest that you keep your identity off those sites if you want to protect your reputation, though. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
On Wed, 16 May 2007 10:28:41 +0100, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Today i just told them to go back to using table based layouts and i will restrict my designs accordingly- i cant listen to the whining anymore. What would you have done in this situation? I just tell clients I have no knowledge of using tables for layout. But then, I am retired and can afford to choose what I work on. I suggest that you keep your identity off those sites if you want to protect your reputation, though. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
i´m an old school webdesigner by old i mean, i tryed to use cs1.0, some dhtml ans i used to rock on flash3.0 .by those days i gave up on internet, nobody was willing to pay someone an honest amout of money to work with that. (i live in brazil). In the last ten years i created about 10 websites layout for small business(so.. nothing), now i´m returning to web and to be hones i´m still kinda lost. Started implementing some css sites and it´s hard in the beginning to get the positioning and the variation of render from bowser to browser. but after a month i was able to find my way through it, so it´s possible. although, i don´t have the time i need to keep implementing my layouts and searching for a solution i came across this service on the internet. http://www.psd2html.com/ For me it´s kinda expensive, but i´d really like to give it a try. For what i saw in their site they seem to know about this. It´s a pain sto create and validate xhtml strict and css code.(i can do that now, and i´m very proud lol!) If u are having trouble with that maybe you should give it a try. best regards Matheus Neves 2007/5/17, David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, 16 May 2007 10:28:41 +0100, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Today i just told them to go back to using table based layouts and i will restrict my designs accordingly- i cant listen to the whining anymore. What would you have done in this situation? I just tell clients I have no knowledge of using tables for layout. But then, I am retired and can afford to choose what I work on. I suggest that you keep your identity off those sites if you want to protect your reputation, though. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
On 5/16/07, kevin mcmonagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would you have done in this situation? Take off and nuke them from orbit - it's the only way to be sure. ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
On 16 May 2007, at 7:28 PM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: What would you have done in this situation? Find another client - or risk sounding like a whiner yourself. At the end of the day, you can give clients informed choice, but you can't *make* them follow your advice. If they can't see the benefits of a standards-based approach, sack 'em if it hurts too much to work with 'em. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
Ouch. I had a similar situation where the client just won't listen-- They wanted to integrate a part of an old website to a new one that I did that looks *exactly* as is. I followed what they wanted and now they have a mish-mash of junk code. On 5/16/07, kevin mcmonagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have a client that i do a lot of web design for, i hand over jpegs-they do the code. Ive been trying to get them to migrate to css layouts for the last two years. They never took time to learn css properly and only manage to hack layouts together. After ie7 came out a lot of the layouts broke and everybody's pointing fingers. Today i just told them to go back to using table based layouts and i will restrict my designs accordingly- i cant listen to the whining anymore. What would you have done in this situation? -best kevin mcmonagle *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Regnard Kreisler C. Raquedan, ACP, SCJA mobile: +63.919.2907711 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://www.raquedan.com yahoo!/skype: rkraquedan -- Need a color? Try 100 Random Colors. http://100randomcolors.raquedan.com -- Building websites the Standards way: http://webstandards.raquedan.com -- Colorblog like no other http://16colors.blogspot.com -- Movie TV Review Blog http://screensucked.blogspot.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
Regnard Kreisler C. Raquedan wrote: Ouch. I had a similar situation where the client just won't listen-- They wanted to integrate a part of an old website to a new one that I did that looks *exactly* as is. I followed what they wanted and now they have a mish-mash of junk code. On 5/16/07, *kevin mcmonagle* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I have a client that i do a lot of web design for, i hand over jpegs-they do the code. Ive been trying to get them to migrate to css layouts for the last two years. They never took time to learn css properly and only manage to hack layouts together. After ie7 came out a lot of the layouts broke and everybody's pointing fingers. Today i just told them to go back to using table based layouts and i will restrict my designs accordingly- i cant listen to the whining anymore. What would you have done in this situation? -best kevin mcmonagle On the bright side at least they aren't slapping comic sans all over the show, that's my only client related gripe at the moment. I think in your situation though it's the choice of your client as to their code. Chances are at some point one of their customers will ask for some level of web standards then they'll be all ears to what you have to say. Just tell them to google conditional comments if they only have ie7 issues. At least you can give your other clients the good stuff. Here's a link to put a smile on your face anyway, old school web design studio at it's best: http://www.wizwebz.co.uk ... (I kinda like it for some inexplicable reason) Take it easy Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
On 16 May 2007, at 12:49:46, Robert O'Rourke wrote: Here's a link to put a smile on your face anyway, old school web design studio at it's best: http://www.wizwebz.co.uk ... (I kinda like it for some inexplicable reason) Ouch! Of course, you can implement a design from the classic web school in a standards-compliant way: http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/zen/ sample.css Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
On 16 May 2007, at 11:28 PM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: http://www.wizwebz.co.uk ... http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/zen/ sample.css OK, enough - I quit. How can I possibly compete with these world-class designers? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
On 5/16/07, Ben Dodson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a link to put a smile on your face anyway, old school web design studio at it's best: http://www.wizwebz.co.uk ... (I kinda like it for some inexplicable reason) last updated their home page in 2000. That is old school! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- ::Bruce:: *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 16 May 2007, at 11:28 PM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: http://www.wizwebz.co.uk ... http://csszengarden.com/?cssfile=http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/zen/sample.css OK, enough - I quit. How can I possibly compete with these world-class designers? N It's a tall order for sure! That zen garden submission... wow... the CSS file is quite an amusing read too. If you haven't clicked around wizwebz yet go to the 'what will it cost me' page for the best midi ever. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
I hope prospective clients don't view source and see it's really all created by Cool Page - easier than frontpage and dreamweaver apparently! They could lose a few clients... http://www.coolpage.com/cpg.html Apparently, it runs 'dynamicGoo' technology ... 0_o -RW. -- Rob Wilmshurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
And THAT web page was last updated 5 years ago... From: Rob Wilmshurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] ive given up on css http://www.coolpage.com/cpg.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
Today i just told them to go back to using table based layouts and i will restrict my designs accordingly- i cant listen to the whining anymore. What would you have done in this situation? Back to your original topic - the client is always right in the end. You can present white papers and expert opinions, but in the end the decision the client makes stands. Dumping the client doesn't seem to be a pro attitude, though it may be how we feel :) I just wanted to emphasize that you did the right thing for the client, and that's what it's all about as long as the code is valid and accessible. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
Susan Grossman wrote: Today i just told them to go back to using table based layouts and i will restrict my designs accordingly- i cant listen to the whining anymore. What would you have done in this situation? Back to your original topic - the client is always right in the end. You can present white papers and expert opinions, but in the end the decision the client makes stands. Dumping the client doesn't seem to be a pro attitude, though it may be how we feel :) I just wanted to emphasize that you did the right thing for the client, and that's what it's all about as long as the code is valid and accessible. That's Kevin's problem, although the code might be valid it's very likely to be poorly accessible. You're absolutely right about not trying to force their hand. Accessibility is their concern if all you're doing is providing designs and they do the code. Bit more boring to design for I'd imagine but whatever puts food on the table. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
I think in your situation though it's the choice of your client as to their code. Find another client - or risk sounding like a whiner yourself. At the end of the day, you can give clients informed choice... Good advice: I dont want to come off as a whiner because thats not what i would want from someone working for me. From now on i'm going to hand over my illustrator files and stay out of the code. that webwiz craic is brilliant!! -kvn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
Robert O'Rourke wrote: Susan Grossman wrote: Today i just told them to go back to using table based layouts and i will restrict my designs accordingly- i cant listen to the whining anymore. What would you have done in this situation? Back to your original topic - the client is always right in the end. You can present white papers and expert opinions, but in the end the decision the client makes stands. Dumping the client doesn't seem to be a pro attitude, though it may be how we feel :) I just wanted to emphasize that you did the right thing for the client, and that's what it's all about as long as the code is valid and accessible. That's Kevin's problem, although the code might be valid it's very likely to be poorly accessible. You're absolutely right about not trying to force their hand. Accessibility is their concern if all you're doing is providing designs and they do the code. Bit more boring to design for I'd imagine but whatever puts food on the table. and be sure to have that indemnity clause in your contracts in case they get sued for inaccessibility. -- Dwain Alford http://www.studiokdd.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] ive given up on css
Robert O'Rourke wrote: If you haven't clicked around wizwebz yet go to the 'what will it cost me' page for the best midi ever. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakety_Sax == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] ive given up on css
Today i just told them to go back to using table based layouts and i will restrict my designs accordingly- i cant listen to the whining anymore. What would you have done in this situation? Well I'm not a designer so this is a bit speculative - but with that sort of situation I'd probably stop getting involved in implementation. If they're more interested in finger-pointing than solutions, all you can do is remove yourself from the chain of blame. If they're not training their staff properly you can't win that fight. Alternatively, start doing the HTML yourself - show them your rates and let them run cost/benefit versus hacking it together themselves. Of course they might not be good at maintaining it, so you're still at risk. cheers, Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
