Re: [WSG] List Headers?
At 11:15 PM 11/5/2005, Christian Montoya wrote: What I would like to do is have a list header, much like tables have table headers. I wrote more about this here: http://montoya.rdpdesign.com/2005/11/06/list-headers-an-idea/ But what it basically boils down to is having a tag I call list header so you can do: ul lhheader/lh liitem 1/li ... /ul Great idea, Christian, but you've been scooped: LH was part of the 1993 HTML3 specification in the UL, OL, and DL definitions, such as: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/deflists.html LH appears to have disappeared from the specs between HTML 3.0 and 3.2, but I wasn't able to discover when or why it was deprecated. Does anyone here recall? Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Great idea, Christian, but you've been scooped: LH was part of the 1993 HTML3 specification in the UL, OL, and DL definitions, such as: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/deflists.html LH appears to have disappeared from the specs between HTML 3.0 and 3.2, but I wasn't able to discover when or why it was deprecated. Does anyone here recall? Paul Whoa! Why did they take those away??? -- -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Hi, And what about the definition list? It seems to me that is a plain way to do that job m8. dl dtheader/dt dditem1/dd ... /dl dl is handy because you can use more headers (dt tags) in the same list etc. Regards, Janos 2005/11/6, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Great idea, Christian, but you've been scooped: LH was part of the 1993 HTML3 specification in the UL, OL, and DL definitions, such as: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/deflists.html LH appears to have disappeared from the specs between HTML 3.0 and 3.2, but I wasn't able to discover when or why it was deprecated. Does anyone here recall? Paul Whoa! Why did they take those away??? -- -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Or you could nest it, even, if that's valid. Sounds awful complex though... dl dtheader/dt dd ul li/li /ul /dd /dl Though I remain uncertain as to the semantic value of that, even if it is valid. Josh On 11/6/05, Janos Hardi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And what about the definition list? It seems to me that is a plain way to do that job m8. dl dtheader/dt dditem1/dd ... /dl dl is handy because you can use more headers (dt tags) in the same list etc. -- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
I think those both do not solve the problem. How do I give a definition list a header? h1Dictionary/h1 dl dtword/dt dddef/dd dtword/dt dddef/dd /dl I would like to do: dl lhDictionary/lh dt.../dt dh.../dh /dl Any solution that involves nested lists is really bad IMO. That makes things too complex. -- -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Christian Montoya wrote: I think those both do not solve the problem. How do I give a definition list a header? I understand your desire to be completely explicit in terms of assigning a header to a list, I'd say that (X)HTML is just not that explicit a language in that respect, and that *source order* is used to infer a lot of this type of assignment. Think, for instance, about a normal page structure like h1Heading/h1 pfirst paragraph/p h2Sub heading/h2 psecond paragraph/p Now, in HTML, there is no *explicit* hook in the markup that unequivocally says that the h1 applies to all that comes below it, that the headings for the second paragraph are both the h2 and the h1, etc. It all comes from the actual document structure. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
I understand your desire to be completely explicit in terms of assigning a header to a list, I'd say that (X)HTML is just not that explicit a language in that respect, and that *source order* is used to infer a lot of this type of assignment. Think, for instance, about a normal page structure like h1Heading/h1 pfirst paragraph/p h2Sub heading/h2 psecond paragraph/p Now, in HTML, there is no *explicit* hook in the markup that unequivocally says that the h1 applies to all that comes below it, that the headings for the second paragraph are both the h2 and the h1, etc. It all comes from the actual document structure. -- Patrick H. Lauke I had a feeling someone would say that, and that's probably why it will stay the way it is now. But now I'm curious; what happened to the lh tag, why was it taken out? -- -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Hi, I do not know is this a solution for our problem but it seems it does the semantic and valid job - i made it a bit complex but its now a closely real-world example :) h1label for=stuff-lista accesskey=0 href=This is a Header for my stuff list/a/label/h1 ul id=stuff-list lia accesskey=1 id=stuff1 href=my stuff No.1/a/li lia accesskey=2 id=stuff2 href=my stuff No.2/a/li /ul Regards, Janos 2005/11/6, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I understand your desire to be completely explicit in terms of assigning a header to a list, I'd say that (X)HTML is just not that explicit a language in that respect, and that *source order* is used to infer a lot of this type of assignment. Think, for instance, about a normal page structure like h1Heading/h1 pfirst paragraph/p h2Sub heading/h2 psecond paragraph/p Now, in HTML, there is no *explicit* hook in the markup that unequivocally says that the h1 applies to all that comes below it, that the headings for the second paragraph are both the h2 and the h1, etc. It all comes from the actual document structure. -- Patrick H. Lauke I had a feeling someone would say that, and that's probably why it will stay the way it is now. But now I'm curious; what happened to the lh tag, why was it taken out? -- -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Janos Hardi wrote: I do not know is this a solution for our problem but it seems it does the semantic and valid job - i made it a bit complex but its now a closely real-world example :) h1label for=stuff-lista accesskey=0 href=This is a Header for my stuff list/a/label/h1 ul id=stuff-list lia accesskey=1 id=stuff1 href=my stuff No.1/a/li lia accesskey=2 id=stuff2 href=my stuff No.2/a/li /ul Hmmm...the spec for label only mentions association with form controls, not with things like lists as in your example. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/forms.html#h-17.9 I'd question if this has any use at all, I'm afraid. Yes, it validates...but no user agent would take advantage of this, as it's such an exotic loop hole (or lack of specific enough rules) in the spec. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
I do not know is this a solution for our problem but it seems it does the semantic and valid job - i made it a bit complex but its now a closely real-world example :) h1label for=stuff-lista accesskey=0 href=This is a Header for my stuff list/a/label/h1 ul id=stuff-list lia accesskey=1 id=stuff1 href=my stuff No.1/a/li lia accesskey=2 id=stuff2 href=my stuff No.2/a/li /ul Regards, Janos Wait, is this valid? I thought labels only belonged in forms. Well, actually, it looks like you and I are on the right track: In XHTML 2.0 comes name nl nameFriends/Family/name li href=http://joeri.mulder.com/;Joeri/li li href=http://www.maggerydoo.net/;Marco/li li href=http://uitdeschaduw.blogspot.com/;Jelle/li li href=http://www.q42.nl/;Q42/li /nl View it here in an XHTML 2.0 capable browser like Firefox: http://w3future.com/weblog/gems/xhtml2.xml Case closed! -- -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Hey Patrick, Yes I understand your doubts but the starting point was that Chris wanted a Hx element semantically connected with a list (with valid xhtml code). I think my solution is okay but I'd never use it ;) I use the plain DL that has DT elements useable for pseudo-headings. Janos 2005/11/6, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Janos Hardi wrote: I do not know is this a solution for our problem but it seems it does the semantic and valid job - i made it a bit complex but its now a closely real-world example :) h1label for=stuff-lista accesskey=0 href=This is a Header for my stuff list/a/label/h1 ul id=stuff-list lia accesskey=1 id=stuff1 href=my stuff No.1/a/li lia accesskey=2 id=stuff2 href=my stuff No.2/a/li /ul Hmmm...the spec for label only mentions association with form controls, not with things like lists as in your example. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/forms.html#h-17.9 I'd question if this has any use at all, I'm afraid. Yes, it validates...but no user agent would take advantage of this, as it's such an exotic loop hole (or lack of specific enough rules) in the spec. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Hey Patrick, Yes I understand your doubts but the starting point was that Chris wanted a Hx element semantically connected with a list (with valid xhtml code). I think my solution is okay but I'd never use it ;) I use the plain DL that has DT elements useable for pseudo-headings. Janos Wait, so if label is misplaced then what is up with this example: nl labelContents /label li href=#introductionIntroduction/li li nl labelTerms/label li href=#mayMay/li li href=#mustMust/li li href=#shouldShould/li /nl /li li href=#conformanceConformance/li li href=#referencesReferences/li ... /nl From the XHTML 2.0 working draft, May 2005: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-list.html#s_listmodule Seems like label will be used??? -- -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Yes it seems but: Navigation lists are intended to be used to define collections of selectable items for presentation in a navigation menu. Note that a navigation list always starts with a label element that defines the label for the list. The spec tells us that this list is (only?) for navigation. Would be great if we could use labels for simple data container lists in xhtml2 Janos 2005/11/6, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hey Patrick, Yes I understand your doubts but the starting point was that Chris wanted a Hx element semantically connected with a list (with valid xhtml code). I think my solution is okay but I'd never use it ;) I use the plain DL that has DT elements useable for pseudo-headings. Janos Wait, so if label is misplaced then what is up with this example: nl labelContents /label li href=#introductionIntroduction/li li nl labelTerms/label li href=#mayMay/li li href=#mustMust/li li href=#shouldShould/li /nl /li li href=#conformanceConformance/li li href=#referencesReferences/li ... /nl From the XHTML 2.0 working draft, May 2005: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-list.html#s_listmodule Seems like label will be used??? -- -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Yes it seems but: Navigation lists are intended to be used to define collections of selectable items for presentation in a navigation menu. Note that a navigation list always starts with a label element that defines the label for the list. The spec tells us that this list is (only?) for navigation. Would be great if we could use labels for simple data container lists in xhtml2 Janos It sure helps, though, since the place I always need this is in my navigation lists! -- -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Janos Hardi wrote: but the starting point was that Chris wanted a Hx element semantically connected with a list (with valid xhtml code). I understand, but I'd argue that your solution with LABEL is no more semantically connected than the original one without, as LABEL is expected to point to a form control, not a list. It may validate in terms of syntax, but in terms of logic it doesn't make sense, from what I can see in the spec. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Okay I retreat :) Perhaps we can use one of the followings: h1 id=stuff-list-titleHeading for stuff list/h1 ul id=stuff-list li id=stuff1stuff No.1/li .. /ul or: dl id=stuff-list dt id=stuff-termStuff category/term/dt dd id=stuff1Stuff No.1/dd /dl I think now the closest solution is using the DL list. Thx for the info Patrick. Janos ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Patrick H. Lauke said: Janos Hardi wrote: ...a Hx element semantically connected with a list LABEL is expected to point to a form control, not a list. It may validate in terms of syntax, but in terms of logic it doesn't make sense... Unfortunately HTML validators do contain errors. Allowing the absense of an explicit form element is one of those - e.g. you can also use fieldsets and legends outside forms. I think the relationship between a header and the content that follows is implicit enough that everyone will 'get it', we use this mental model everyday with written material. And, of course, you can create addtional affordance through the visual design. If you really need to keep headings and lists together as a unit (for machine readability, perhaps?) then use a div. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] List Headers?
Hi, I suppose Chris referred to the machine readable code - In this case I'd use your = div - header * list etc. solution. Cheers, Janos 2005/11/6, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Patrick H. Lauke said: Janos Hardi wrote: ...a Hx element semantically connected with a list LABEL is expected to point to a form control, not a list. It may validate in terms of syntax, but in terms of logic it doesn't make sense... Unfortunately HTML validators do contain errors. Allowing the absense of an explicit form element is one of those - e.g. you can also use fieldsets and legends outside forms. I think the relationship between a header and the content that follows is implicit enough that everyone will 'get it', we use this mental model everyday with written material. And, of course, you can create addtional affordance through the visual design. If you really need to keep headings and lists together as a unit (for machine readability, perhaps?) then use a div. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
