RE: [WSG] default place-holders for forms

[Web Usability]

Sorry I am late on this topic.

But I agree with Steven. In practice, the screen reader users I have worked
with find form place holders an irritant.

Roger

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 4 October 2004 4:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] default place-holders for forms



Hi Andreas,
not sure about the article, but we  do recommend to our clients that they
not use default place holding cahracters.
 from what i have read on the various accessibility lists, it appears that
it is pretty safe to say that the checkpoint is no longer relevant.
but i may be wrong..

some relevant list discussions

Paul Bohman from webaim was saying its no longer needed back in 02'
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/mail_message.php?id=2113

Updating specs and tools Re: place-holding characters in edit/text boxes:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2003JulSep/0399.html



with regards

Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
National Information & Library Service (NILS)
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

National Information Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.


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[WSG] Semantic status of images in headers

[Hugh Todd]

A client of mine is teaching himself CSS. I took a look at some of his 
code today (at his request) and saw that while he had set up a 
hierarchy of headers (h1, h2, h3) in the HTML, he had done no more than 
put an image inside each of them, with an "alt" tag. One of them was a 
white rectangle inside the h1 tag, with an alt="Welcome".

My advice to him was that having the h1 tags around images doesn't turn 
them or their alt tags into proper headers. A text reader will still 
read the image as an image, and a web crawler won't find the h1 text 
it's looking for.

Then I had a tiny doubt. I thought it conceivable that an "alt" tag for 
an image inside an h tag could inherit status from its position. But it 
doesn't does it? Can anyone confirm what I told him?

Example:


-Hugh Todd
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RE: [WSG] Semantic status of images in headers

[Peter Goddard]

Title: RE: [WSG] Semantic status of images in headers





Hugh


I think you are right. There is some debate about the use of image replacement techniques and how effective they are from a standards perspective. The best technique I have seen was devised by Todd Fahrner and is detailed at Jeffrey Zeldman's A List Apart.

Try the following links:


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dynatext/
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/
http://www.alistapart.com/authors/toddfahrner/
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/_javascript_replacement/


and Douglas Bowman has his well respected opinion on the matter here:-


http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/replace_text/


HTH


Peter
 



-Original Message-
From: Hugh Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 04 October 2004 08:55
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Semantic status of images in headers


A client of mine is teaching himself CSS. I took a look at some of his 
code today (at his request) and saw that while he had set up a 
hierarchy of headers (h1, h2, h3) in the HTML, he had done no more than 
put an image inside each of them, with an "alt" tag. One of them was a 
white rectangle inside the h1 tag, with an alt="Welcome".


My advice to him was that having the h1 tags around images doesn't turn 
them or their alt tags into proper headers. A text reader will still 
read the image as an image, and a web crawler won't find the h1 text 
it's looking for.


Then I had a tiny doubt. I thought it conceivable that an "alt" tag for 
an image inside an h tag could inherit status from its position. But it 
doesn't does it? Can anyone confirm what I told him?


Example:



height="40px" />


-Hugh Todd


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[WSG] my share of photos form WE04

[Amit Karmakar]

Enjoy! These are Day 2 photos atm will add the rest soon.

http://www.karmakars.com/weblog/archives/2004/10/04/we04gallery

-- 
Regards,
Amit Karmakar
http://karmakars.com
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[WSG] IE 6 Hover Bug?

[JonathanC]

Return Receipt


Your document:
[WSG] IE 6 Hover Bug?


was received by:
Jonathan Cooper/ARTGAL-NSW/AU


at:
04/10/2004 09:03:06 PM

Re: [WSG] my share of photos form WE04

[Chris Stratford]

Thanks A lot!
I wasnt there, so - http://www.karmakars.com/WE04_gallery/window.php?8 - 
Please explain ???

Amit Karmakar wrote:
Enjoy! These are Day 2 photos atm will add the rest soon.
http://www.karmakars.com/weblog/archives/2004/10/04/we04gallery
 


--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com

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Re: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning

[JonathanC]

"Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 04/10/2004 10:54:20 
AM:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > OK, Consider this very simple HTML document:
> ...
> > How could leaving out the doctype make such a definite difference to 
such 
> > a simple page?
> 
> The crucial part of my answer was: "If you know for sure that the markup 

> *is going to be invalid*"
> 
> The example you provide is of valid markup. I tried corrupting the code, 

> but interestingly, on Firefox and Opera, even when the markup is 
> blatantly broken, the doctype keeps the browser in standards mode (or 
> almost-standards mode, as the case may be). Interesting...seems the 
> wrong behaviour to me, but still interesting...

Thanks for the clarification. However, I still don't understand WHY a page 
requires a doctype declaration (in my case HTML 4.0 transitional) just to 
make a font-size style cascade from body through to td.

To recap: here are two pages, identical except for the presence or absence 
of a doctype declaration:
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/doctype.html
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/no_doctype.html

Regards,

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au



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RE: [WSG] my share of photos form WE04

[Jason Foss]

LOL... That photo *would* take some explaining if you weren't there! Joe's a
funny bloke.

Cheers
Jason

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Stratford
Sent: Monday, 4 October 2004 9:05 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] my share of photos form WE04

Thanks A lot!

I wasnt there, so - http://www.karmakars.com/WE04_gallery/window.php?8 -
Please explain ???

Amit Karmakar wrote:

>Enjoy! These are Day 2 photos atm will add the rest soon.
>
>http://www.karmakars.com/weblog/archives/2004/10/04/we04gallery
>
>  
>


--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com


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Re: [WSG] my share of photos form WE04

[Rick Faaberg]

> I wasnt there, so - http://www.karmakars.com/WE04_gallery/window.php?8 -
> Please explain ???

Yeah, we need some explanation, don't we?

Pleasant looking people, but who are they and why are they in the pix and
what are they saying and doing in those pix?

Maybe video with audio would be better?

Rick Faaberg

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Re: [WSG] my share of photos form WE04

[Amit Karmakar]

LOL we had a lot of fun :) Joe was at his best as always ;-)

I am updating the images and would have some more to add to the lot
and the image folder path problem should be resolved soon.



On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 04:25:01 -0700, Rick Faaberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I wasnt there, so - http://www.karmakars.com/WE04_gallery/window.php?8 -
> > Please explain ???
> 
> Yeah, we need some explanation, don't we?
> 
> Pleasant looking people, but who are they and why are they in the pix and
> what are they saying and doing in those pix?
> 
> Maybe video with audio would be better?
> 
> Rick Faaberg
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> 
> 



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http://karmakars.com
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Re: [WSG] floating image

[Nancy Johnson]

Yes, this is exactly what I am interested in.  Thank you for responding and I will try it out.  
 
I also want to thank all of you who have responded to my inquiry, and have set the emails aside.
 
I haven't had time to try them out, but intend to soon.
 
Nancy JohnsonLea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:58:51 -0700, Robin Button wrote:> How can one have an image on the left with a caption below the image, and> text on the right. I don't want to text to float around the image and I> don't want to use a table.so you want:xxx lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum xxx lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum xxx lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum caption lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum ?Consider:

caption
lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum lorem epsum css:#captionedImageBlock div {background: url('animage.jpg') no-repeat;padding-top: Npx;float: left;width: Mpx;}#captionedImageBlock p {margin-left: Mpx;}where N is the height of the image and M is the width of the image (plus a little)You'd also want a little bit of spacing around the image, too.(Thank you for asking, I had a need for this on a page and the answer sprang straight into my head when I saw your question :))warmly,Lea-- Lea de GrootElysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/Brisbane, Australia**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledgeTo be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004See
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RE: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning

[Peter Goddard]

Title: RE: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning





Dear Johnathan


I would recommend you read this short article.


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/doctype/


IMHO the setting of a DOCTYPE is an essential step in the migration to standards based web development. You have a valid point that if you want to simply set a font-family or size attribute for pages, and that is all you want to do, then the doctype you employ is largely irrelevant. But it should be mentioned that it would be unusual in a site's design/re-design, that this is all you want to accomplish with css. To be certain that browsers display the presentational instructions consistently, a doctype is essential to ensure browsers are in 'Standards' mode and not 'quirks' mode. 

Not all browsers implement the css specification fully. We are still stuck with workarounds where browsers get their interpretation of the rules 'wrong'. Even the major browsers interpret the basic box model differently.

Hopefully Mr Zeldman in his article will help make this clear. 


He always makes perfect sense to me.


Peter Goddard
Web Developer/IT
PSI Global Ltd
 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 04 October 2004 12:17
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Patrick H. Lauke
Subject: Re: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning


"Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 04/10/2004 10:54:20 
AM:


> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > OK, Consider this very simple HTML document:
> ...
> > How could leaving out the doctype make such a definite difference to 
such 
> > a simple page?
> 
> The crucial part of my answer was: "If you know for sure that the markup 


> *is going to be invalid*"
> 
> The example you provide is of valid markup. I tried corrupting the code, 


> but interestingly, on Firefox and Opera, even when the markup is 
> blatantly broken, the doctype keeps the browser in standards mode (or 
> almost-standards mode, as the case may be). Interesting...seems the 
> wrong behaviour to me, but still interesting...


Thanks for the clarification. However, I still don't understand WHY a page 
requires a doctype declaration (in my case HTML 4.0 transitional) just to 
make a font-size style cascade from body through to td.


To recap: here are two pages, identical except for the presence or absence 
of a doctype declaration:
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/doctype.html
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/dev/doctype_test/no_doctype.html


Regards,


Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au




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RE: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning

[Martin J. Lambert]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification. However, I still don't understand WHY a
> page requires a doctype declaration (in my case HTML 4.0
> transitional) just to make a font-size style cascade from body
> through to td. 


I believe it's simply that quirks mode follows older browser behavior,
where td's did not inherit styles from body, or anything else outside
of their table.  In standards mode, they do (correctly) inherit the
styles.

Look at your pages in Win/IE 5 or anything older to see it, regardless
of doctype.  This was also why, in the bad old days, every single
table cell needed its own  tag - there was no way to set the
style outside the table and have it be inherited.

--
Martin Lambert
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[WSG] Tables, is it Standard?

[Olajide Olaolorun]

Hi, I would like to know if Tables is standard. You see, I have been
into web standards for some time now nut I still use Tables and would
like to know if it is standards

Thanks

-- 
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RE: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning

[JonathanC]

Peter Goddard wrote on 04/10/2004 11:10:07 PM:

> I would recommend you read this short article. 
> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/doctype/ 
> IMHO the setting of a DOCTYPE is an essential step in the migration 
> to standards based web development. You have a valid point that if 
> you want to simply set a font-family or size attribute for pages, 
> and that is all you want to do, then the doctype you employ is 
> largely irrelevant. But it should be mentioned that it would be 
> unusual in a site's design/re-design, that this is all you want to 
> accomplish with css. To be certain that browsers display the 
> presentational instructions consistently, a doctype is essential to 
> ensure browsers are in 'Standards' mode and not 'quirks' mode. 
> Not all browsers implement the css specification fully. We are still
> stuck with workarounds where browsers get their interpretation of 
> the rules 'wrong'. Even the major browsers interpret the basic box 
> model differently.
> Hopefully Mr Zeldman in his article will help make this clear. 
> He always makes perfect sense to me. 

Thanks, Peter. The article was indeed helpful. I sort of knew what 
doctypes were for but I didn't realise that something as basic as having 
text in a table cell inherit a style from the body required a valid 
doctype. Now I do. :-)

The trouble is, the (CMS-driven) website I look after has some pages (or 
page templates) with an incomplete doctype:
  
... and most with NO doctype at all!
(I didn't build this site, by the way; when it was created, I'd never even 
HEARD of CSS!)

I briefly added the HTML 4.01 Transitional doctype to the main template 
the other day, but it made the pages almost unreadable (tiny, tiny text), 
so I had to take it out again. Oh well, looks like I'll have to clone the 
template, add the doctype and go through the stylesheets bit by bit, 
checking on the front-end as I go. 

I'm sure you'll hear from me again. :-/

Regards,

Jonathan Cooper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au

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Re: [WSG] WSG Melbourne: Meet Doug Bowman and Dave Shea - Venue Confirmed

[Marc Greenstock]

Damn I was just in Melbourne, had a beer or to at 3 Degrees and 
everything. Just to note anyone who likes chocolate, it's right across 
the courtyard :) Hope to catch it next time :)

David McDonald wrote:
The venue has now been confirmed for the WSG Melbourne meetup, with
special guests Doug Bowman and Dave Shea.
The venue is 3 Degrees, located in the new QV complex on the corner
of Lonsdale & Russell Sts, in the city. 

The meetup will be on the ground floor bar, which is accessible from
the QV courtyard. A map of how to get there can be found at
http://www.3degrees.com.au/2.html.
Start time will be 6:30pm and there will be some finger food provided.
As with all meetings here in Melbourne, this is open to WSG members
and non-members alike.
If anyone is having trouble finding the venue, feel free to call
Andrew 0409 355 296 or David 0403 332 140.
For those in Melbourne that couldn't get to WE04, this is a great
opportunity to get face to face contact with two extraordinary
people. WSG Co-Chair Peter Firminger will also be flying down.
Keep posted to this page for more information:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event19.cfm
Regards,
David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org
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RE: [WSG] doctypes, quirks/standards mode and positioning

[JonathanC]

"Martin J. Lambert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 04/10/2004 11:28:07 PM:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Thanks for the clarification. However, I still don't understand WHY a
> > page requires a doctype declaration (in my case HTML 4.0
> > transitional) just to make a font-size style cascade from body
> > through to td. 
> 
> 
> I believe it's simply that quirks mode follows older browser behavior,
> where td's did not inherit styles from body, or anything else outside
> of their table.  In standards mode, they do (correctly) inherit the
> styles.
> 
> Look at your pages in Win/IE 5 or anything older to see it, regardless
> of doctype.  This was also why, in the bad old days, every single
> table cell needed its own  tag - there was no way to set the
> style outside the table and have it be inherited.

Ah ha! That's exactly what I was wanting to know.
Thank you very much.

Regards,

Jonathan Coper
Manager of Information / Website
Art Gallery of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au



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 Unless specifically indicated, this email does not constitute formal 
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Re: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?

[Manuel González Noriega]

Olajide Olaolorun wrote:
Hi, I would like to know if Tables is standard. You see, I have been
into web standards for some time now nut I still use Tables and would
like to know if it is standards
Thanks
I think it's key to distinguish between Standards and Best Practices.
Web Standards have W3C specs to back them and are mainly: (X)HTML, 
XHTML, CSS, ECMAscript and WAI Guidelines.

Best practices include: separation of content and presentation, semantic 
markup and tableless layout.

So, s are perfectly fit in standard valited code, but you must 
observe the best practice of using them only for marking up tabular data 
and not for layout purposes.

My 0.02 cents of Euro.
--
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comunicación en la web.
 http://simplelogica.net # (+34) 985 22 12 65
escribe en Logicola http://simplelogica.net/logicola/
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Re: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?

[Kay Smoljak]

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 09:55:42 -0400, Olajide Olaolorun
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, I would like to know if Tables is standard. You see, I have been
> into web standards for some time now nut I still use Tables and would
> like to know if it is standards

Tables are valid HTML, but in the spirit of web standards, they are
discouraged for layout. Essentially, if you're marking up the kind of
data that you'd find in a spreadsheet, use a table. If you're talking
about laying out a page structure, you should look at using CSS
positioning instead, there's a lot of advantages.

The best tutorial I've found on how CSS positioning works is
http://www.brainjar.com/css/positioning/ - I had it saved on my PDA
and read it every morning on the train ride into work for weeks, until
it really sank in.

Cheers,
K.

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http://kay.smoljak.com/
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Re: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?

[Vlad Alexander \(XStandard\)]

Hi Olajide,

Tables are standard but like any markup, it needs to be used correctly.
Tables can be used for layout (this practice is discouraged) or for storing
tabular data. If you are using tables for layout, make sure to only use the
following tags: , , . If you are using data tables, you need
to use at least , ,  and  and then associate the cells
('s) with headers ('s). One way to do this is by using the following
attributes  and . At the following link, you
can listen to how a table may be processed by assistive technologies if it
is correctly and incorrectly marked up. Go to section "Incorrect Use Of
Tables"

http://xstandard.com/wysiwyg/

Regards,
-Vlad
XStandard Development Team
http://xstandard.com



- Original Message - 
From: "Olajide Olaolorun" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Web Standards Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 9:55 AM
Subject: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?


> Hi, I would like to know if Tables is standard. You see, I have been
> into web standards for some time now nut I still use Tables and would
> like to know if it is standards
>
> Thanks
>
> -- 
> Personal:
> www.olajideolaolorun.com
> www.empirex.net
>
> Business:
> www.tripleolabs.com
> www.tripleostudios.com
> www.tripleo.biz
>
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RE: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?

[Peter Goddard]

Title: RE: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?





There is no hard and fast rule as the whether tables are 'standards'. It is possible to build site layout using tables and still comply with the 'rules'. The question is whether or not tables should be used at all other than for displaying tabular data.

My particular slant on this is that tables make mark-up meaningless when they are used to layout a page! There is virtually nothing you can't achieve with css-positioning for page layout. If this method is employed it is possible to serve content that is formatted for any viewing media (print/browser/wap/tv/toaster/alarm clock or any other web enabled device yes I know, you can't view web pages on a toaster...yet!) Why would you have to serve a separate page to each device.

IMHO keep tables for data that needs to be presented in a 'tabular' form.


There is nothing wrong with using tables in a standards based environment, pages will validate. But try to navigate a page built with multiple nests of tables in a browser for the visually impaired and you will see what I mean. So how can you satisfy accessibility rules if you use tables. Legislation will tighten on this, I want to be sure I'm ready for it.  

The other main consideration is with regard to ease of maintenance. If a web page contains specific semantically sensible s such as:-

Header/banner/tagline etc go here
Links go here
Main page content goes here
Extra information goes here
Your footer details


In this situation anyone maintaining your code can find their way round the page. Redesigning becomes a cinch across a site with many pages. How would you unravel a site with 10,000 pages if it were built with content nested in endless table tags? Standards based development allows you to separate the content from the design. 

As a side note ... this is a standard technique which echoes software development methods used in building more complex web applications where content, presentation, logic and database are all separated from each other (this is called 'n-tier') where each element can be replaced by another without the other elements being effected. An example of this could be that the database back end of an e-commerce site could be based on MySQL but a change in the corporate plan requires a migration to Microsoft SQL Server. The design shouldn't be affected here, only the database connection. If all the mark-up was in one 'spaghetti page' how long would it take to unravel the code and then reassemble? 

For a perfect illustration of why css-positioning wins over table based layout see the CSS ZENGARDEN (http://www.csszengarden.com/) where the same page of mark-up has been altered beyond all recognition just by changing the css and adding a few custom images. 

CSS already offers more than a few rectangular boxes on the page and designers like Doug Bowman, Dave Shea et al are showing the rest of us just what can be achieved.

I believe there is no doubt that table based design will become a thing of the past and I hope that much of what I have said here both makes some sense and also encourages you to explore this exciting area more fully.


Peter Goddard
Web Developer/IT
PSI Global Ltd
 


-Original Message-
From: Olajide Olaolorun [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 04 October 2004 14:56
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?


Hi, I would like to know if Tables is standard. You see, I have been
into web standards for some time now nut I still use Tables and would
like to know if it is standards


Thanks


-- 
Personal:
www.olajideolaolorun.com
www.empirex.net


Business:
www.tripleolabs.com
www.tripleostudios.com
www.tripleo.biz


Projects:
www.uniformserver.com
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Re: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?

[russ - maxdesign]

> If you are using data tables, you need
> to use at least , ,  and  and then associate the cells
> ('s) with headers ('s).

Agree. Would be good to also include summary and caption in that list  :)
Russ

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Re: [WSG] Semantic status of images in headers

[Clayton Lengel-Zigich]

Another thing you might want to consider telling him, and this isn't
exactly a web standards issues, is that google may consider this
tactic (wrapping a blank white rectangle in h1 tag) to be deceptive
and SPAM.

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 17:55:16 +1000, Hugh Todd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A client of mine is teaching himself CSS. I took a look at some of his
> code today (at his request) and saw that while he had set up a
> hierarchy of headers (h1, h2, h3) in the HTML, he had done no more than
> put an image inside each of them, with an "alt" tag. One of them was a
> white rectangle inside the h1 tag, with an alt="Welcome".


-- 
Clayton Lengel-Zigich
http://www.lengelzigich.com
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[WSG] Why wont this validate

[Kim Kruse]

Hi,
I'm doing server side validating on a form and I get some errors I'm not 
able to decrypt.

So if someone have the time to take a look here 
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.mouseriders.dk/kontakt.php%3Fsubmitted%3D1%26afsnavn%3D%26afsemail%3D%26afstelefon%3D%26afskommentar%3D
and please tell me what the errors means. I don t understand why a 
hidden field should be wrapped in  tags for instance?

Please be patient... I'm learning :o)
Kim

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RE: [WSG] Why wont this validate

[Patrick Lauke]

You need to move  inside a block level 
element (in your case, move it into the fieldset which immediately follows it). Also, 
as it's an empty element, you need to make it self-closing


Patrick

> -Original Message-
> From: Kim Kruse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 04 October 2004 16:54
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Why wont this validate
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm doing server side validating on a form and I get some 
> errors I'm not 
> able to decrypt.
> 
> So if someone have the time to take a look here 
> http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.mouse
riders.dk/kontakt.php%3Fsubmitted%3D1%26afsnavn%3D%26afsemail%3D%> 
26afstelefon%3D%26afskommentar%3D
> and please tell me what the errors means. I don t understand why a 
> hidden field should be wrapped in  tags for instance?
> 
> Please be patient... I'm learning :o)
> 
> Kim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **
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>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Why wont this validate

[Olajide Olaolorun]

Try and close it meaning



Put the / before the ending and try it 


On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:54:15 +0200, Kim Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm doing server side validating on a form and I get some errors I'm not
> able to decrypt.
> 
> So if someone have the time to take a look here
> http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.mouseriders.dk/kontakt.php%3Fsubmitted%3D1%26afsnavn%3D%26afsemail%3D%26afstelefon%3D%26afskommentar%3D
> and please tell me what the errors means. I don t understand why a
> hidden field should be wrapped in  tags for instance?
> 
> Please be patient... I'm learning :o)
> 
> Kim
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 



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www.empirex.net

Business:
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www.tripleostudios.com
www.tripleo.biz

Projects:
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Re: [WSG] Why wont this validate

[Clayton Lengel-Zigich]

You need to close your input tags...



You're missing the " /> " part at the end.


On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:54:15 +0200, Kim Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm doing server side validating on a form and I get some errors I'm not
> able to decrypt.
> 
> So if someone have the time to take a look here
> http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.mouseriders.dk/kontakt.php%3Fsubmitted%3D1%26afsnavn%3D%26afsemail%3D%26afstelefon%3D%26afskommentar%3D
> and please tell me what the errors means. I don t understand why a
> hidden field should be wrapped in  tags for instance?
> 
> Please be patient... I'm learning :o)
> 
> Kim
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 



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Re: [WSG] Why wont this validate

[cameron muir]

Hello,
One thing I noticed is that your hidden input field isn't closed (like 
for img and br): 

cameron.
Kim Kruse wrote:
Hi,
I'm doing server side validating on a form and I get some errors I'm 
not able to decrypt.

So if someone have the time to take a look here 
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.mouseriders.dk/kontakt.php%3Fsubmitted%3D1%26afsnavn%3D%26afsemail%3D%26afstelefon%3D%26afskommentar%3D 

and please tell me what the errors means. I don t understand why a 
hidden field should be wrapped in  tags for instance?

Please be patient... I'm learning :o)
Kim

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.
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RE: [WSG] Why wont this validate

[Trusz, Andrew]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kim Kruse
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 11:54 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Why wont this validate

Hi,

I'm doing server side validating on a form and I get some errors I'm not 
able to decrypt.

So if someone have the time to take a look here 
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.mouseriders.dk/kont
akt.php%3Fsubmitted%3D1%26afsnavn%3D%26afsemail%3D%26afstelefon%3D%26afskomm
entar%3D
and please tell me what the errors means. I don t understand why a 
hidden field should be wrapped in  tags for instance?

Please be patient... I'm learning :o)

Kim


This almost certainly isn't the actual error. This is just the point at
which the validator was unable to manage any longer. It would help to have
the code and the css. 

drew
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Re: [WSG] Why wont this validate

[gareth rushgrove]

Having a look I think its because you are validating against xhtml
strict but haven't closed the hidden input field. You have 
rather than , in xhtml all tags have to be closed,
including stand alone ones line input or hr.

Hope that helps

Gareth

On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 16:54, Kim Kruse wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm doing server side validating on a form and I get some errors I'm not 
> able to decrypt.
> 
> So if someone have the time to take a look here 
> http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.mouseriders.dk/kontakt.php%3Fsubmitted%3D1%26afsnavn%3D%26afsemail%3D%26afstelefon%3D%26afskommentar%3D
> and please tell me what the errors means. I don t understand why a 
> hidden field should be wrapped in  tags for instance?
> 
> Please be patient... I'm learning :o)
> 
> Kim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 

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Recall: [WSG] Why wont this validate

[Trusz, Andrew]

Trusz, Andrew would like to recall the message, "[WSG] Why wont this
validate".
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Re: [WSG] Why wont this validate

[Kim Kruse]

Wow that was fast... and I've been struggling with this for the last 2 
hours. I have things to learn :o)

There where as Patrick and others wrote 2 problems. The missing  closing 
tag and the hidden fields should be wrapped in an block element. In this 
case  tags as moving the hidden field into the field set made the 
 tag stretch across the field set. Problem solved and a lesson 
learned.

Thank you all.
Kim
Patrick Lauke wrote:
You need to move  inside a block level 
element (in your case, move it into the fieldset which immediately follows it). Also, as it's an empty element, you need 
to make it self-closing

Patrick
 

-Original Message-
From: Kim Kruse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 04 October 2004 16:54
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Why wont this validate
Hi,
I'm doing server side validating on a form and I get some 
errors I'm not 
able to decrypt.

So if someone have the time to take a look here 
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.mouse
   

riders.dk/kontakt.php%3Fsubmitted%3D1%26afsnavn%3D%26afsemail%3D%> 26afstelefon%3D%26afskommentar%3D
 

and please tell me what the errors means. I don t understand why a 
hidden field should be wrapped in  tags for instance?

Please be patient... I'm learning :o)
Kim

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[WSG] IE topnav problems

[Ted Drake]

I am stumped on this issue.

Our top nav has a simple tab setup.  It looks proper in firefox, there should be a 
thin white line separating the top nav from the subnav.
In IE, there appears to be 2px of bottom padding or margin on the top nav and it is 
hiding the white line. I've tried all sorts of arrangements for this and cannot find a 
solution.

Here's an appropriate example:
http://tcdpc:8100/csa/help.do

Here's the appropriate css:
http://tcdpc:8100/csa/css/nav.css

I've got a hack I can add to fillup some of the space but I'd rather get it to work 
properly. I've got a launch date of tuesday so any help out there is much appreciated.

Thanks
Ted

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RE: [WSG] IE topnav problems

[Peter Firminger]

Um, local machines won't work out here!

P

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Drake
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:37 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] IE topnav problems
>
> I am stumped on this issue.
>
> Our top nav has a simple tab setup.  It looks proper in
> firefox, there should be a thin white line separating the top
> nav from the subnav.
> In IE, there appears to be 2px of bottom padding or margin on
> the top nav and it is hiding the white line. I've tried all
> sorts of arrangements for this and cannot find a solution.
>
> Here's an appropriate example:
> http://tcdpc:8100/csa/help.do
>
> Here's the appropriate css:
> http://tcdpc:8100/csa/css/nav.css
>
> I've got a hack I can add to fillup some of the space but I'd
> rather get it to work properly. I've got a launch date of
> tuesday so any help out there is much appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> Ted
>
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>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> **
>


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RE: [WSG] IE topnav problems

[Ted Drake]

brainfart time
Here are the right addresses
http://v4.csatravelprotection.com/csa/help.do
and css
http://v4.csatravelprotection.com/csa/css/nav.css

Thanks for pointing that out.
Ted



-Original Message-
From: Peter Firminger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 9:57 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] IE topnav problems


Um, local machines won't work out here!

P

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Drake
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:37 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] IE topnav problems
>
> I am stumped on this issue.
>
> Our top nav has a simple tab setup.  It looks proper in
> firefox, there should be a thin white line separating the top
> nav from the subnav.
> In IE, there appears to be 2px of bottom padding or margin on
> the top nav and it is hiding the white line. I've tried all
> sorts of arrangements for this and cannot find a solution.
>
> Here's an appropriate example:
> http://tcdpc:8100/csa/help.do
>
> Here's the appropriate css:
> http://tcdpc:8100/csa/css/nav.css
>
> I've got a hack I can add to fillup some of the space but I'd
> rather get it to work properly. I've got a launch date of
> tuesday so any help out there is much appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> Ted
>
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>


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[WSG] OL or UL? It´s rigth?

[Genau Junior]

 
Hello,
 
 
My friend is asking me if i can use tags 

 



 
 
can i validate that?
its semantic correct?
 
 
Thanks;
 
Marky Pop.

Re: [WSG] OL or UL? It´s rigth?

[Manuel González Noriega]

Genau Junior wrote:
Hello,
My friend is asking me if i can use tags 




 

No. Make it


 
  Long live lists!
 

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[WSG] RE: [WSG] OL or UL? It´s rigth?

[Ted Drake]

You 
could do this
 

SDFAS
SDFWE
    
    
alsdfjasdf
    
alsdfjasdf
    
alsdfjasdf
    
alsdfjasdf
    
alsdfjasdf
   


SDFAS

SDFAS
 
Which 
would look something like this
 
SDFAS
SDFWE
    1. alsdfjasdf
    2. 
alsdfjasdf   
    3. 
alsdfjasdf 
    
4. alsdfjasdf
    5. 
alsdfjasdf
SDFAS
SDFAS
 
Ted
 
 
 
 -Original Message-From: 
Genau Junior [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 
12:20 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] OL or 
UL? It´s rigth?

   
  Hello,
   
   
  My friend is asking me if i can use tags 
  
   
  
  
  
   
   
  can i validate that?
  its semantic correct?
   
   
  Thanks;
   
  Marky Pop.

Re: [WSG] OL or UL? It´s rigth?

[Andrew Sione Taumoefolau]

Hi Marky,

> My friend is asking me if i can use tags 
>  
> 
> 
> 

No, you can't. Unordered lists can only have list items as child
elements.

Cheers,

Andrew Taumoefolau

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[WSG] be-nice-to-IE/MAC @media rule

[Terrence Wood]

Recently I posted a shorter be-nice-to-IE/MAC @media hack to another list.
There was an issue with the modified rule (and original rule using the 
tantek hack) where the rules following the @media declaration were 
delivered to NN4.

I have since developed this one line alternative which ensures only v5+ 
browser get rules inside an @media declaration:

/* rules for basic browsers */
@media screen,projection
{
/*\{*//*}*/
/* rules for advanced browsers */
}
My motivation for working on this hack is so I can deliver styles to 
basic and advanced browsers with one stylesheet via a . I wanted 
to use  as it is easier to get at with javascript IMHO, than 

[WSG] javascript validation question

[Ted Drake]

I'm having trouble getting a page to validate as xhtml 1.0 transitional. 
http://v4.csavg40.com/csa/preparequote.do
It doesn't like this series of javascript stuff 

It's for a calendar that pops up on an input field. 
Are there any javascript experts that can tell me how this doesn't live up to 
standards?
Thank you
Ted
 
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Re: [WSG] javascript validation question

[Terrence Wood]

It's an XHTML issue...here the validation report from BBEdit:
Value of attribute “onkeydown” for element “” is invalid; Value 
needs entity encoding 
(“if(event.keyCode==9&&self.gfPop)gfPop.fHideCal();”).

On 5/10/04 10:12 AM, Ted Drake wrote:
I'm having trouble getting a page to validate as xhtml 1.0 transitional. http://v4.csavg40.com/csa/preparequote.do
It doesn't like this series of javascript stuff 

It's for a calendar that pops up on an input field. 
Are there any javascript experts that can tell me how this doesn't live up to standards?
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Re: [WSG] javascript validation question

[Aaron Tate]

Ted Drake wrote:
I'm having trouble getting a page to validate as xhtml 1.0 transitional. http://v4.csavg40.com/csa/preparequote.do
It doesn't like this series of javascript stuff 

It's for a calendar that pops up on an input field. 
Are there any javascript experts that can tell me how this doesn't live up to standards?
 

Its the && replace them with &&
Thank you
Ted
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RE: [WSG] javascript validation question

[Ted Drake]

Thanks
I also found that I needed to have a space between the properties, 9 && self instead 
of 9&&self or better yet 9 && self.
Thank you for the quick help
Ted


-Original Message-
From: Terrence Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 2:29 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] javascript validation question


It's an XHTML issue...here the validation report from BBEdit:

Value of attribute “onkeydown” for element “” is invalid; Value 
needs entity encoding 
(“if(event.keyCode==9&&self.gfPop)gfPop.fHideCal();”).


On 5/10/04 10:12 AM, Ted Drake wrote:

> I'm having trouble getting a page to validate as xhtml 1.0 transitional. 
> http://v4.csavg40.com/csa/preparequote.do
> It doesn't like this series of javascript stuff 
>  onkeydown="if(event.keyCode==9&&self.gfPop)gfPop.fHideCal();" 
> onfocus="if(self.gfPop)gfPop.fPopCalendar(document.PurchaseForm.departdate);return 
> false;" id="departdate" />
> It's for a calendar that pops up on an input field. 
> Are there any javascript experts that can tell me how this doesn't live up to 
> standards?

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[WSG] PDF to HTML conversions

[CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh]

Hi,

The WE04 was great but unfortunately none of the speakers discussed the
issue of making PDF files accessible. I am currently facing this
problem.

Does anyone have ideas about the tools in market to convert PDF into
HTML or any other ways to make the PDF files accessible. 

Any thoughts would be welcome.

Thanks

Bhuvnesh Chaudhry


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Re: [WSG] PDF to HTML conversions

[russ - maxdesign]

> The WE04 was great but unfortunately none of the speakers discussed the
> issue of making PDF files accessible. I am currently facing this
> problem.


You may be after tagged pdf's:
http://www.planetpdf.com/enterprise/article.asp?ContentID=6067
http://www.webaim.org/techniques/acrobat/
(links straight from Google)

You may have noticed that the subject of pdf's was quite explosive at WE04.
Some believe that PDF's should be avoided where-ever possible, while others
believe that if you make pdf's as accessible as possible then you have done
you bit.

Bruce Maguire (HEROC) believes that currently developers should try to
provide pdf content in some other form - such as html.

HTH
Russ


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Re: [WSG] OL or UL? It´s rigth?

[Nick Gleitzman]

On Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004, at 05:33 Australia/Sydney, Manuel González 
Noriega wrote:

Genau Junior wrote:
Hello,
My friend is asking me if i can use tags



No. Make it


 
  Long live lists!
 

Close, but no cigar. Make that

  I love nested lists!

  But close that li tag!

  

N ;-)
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RE: [WSG] PDF to HTML conversions

[CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh]

Thanks Russ, for the quick reply.

The link you sent is quite informative but as Bruce Maguire also
believes, do you know of any GOOD PDF to HTML converters ?

Regards

Bhuvnesh

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of russ - maxdesign
Sent: Tuesday, 5 October 2004 08:50 
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] PDF to HTML conversions


> The WE04 was great but unfortunately none of the speakers discussed 
> the issue of making PDF files accessible. I am currently facing this 
> problem.


You may be after tagged pdf's:
http://www.planetpdf.com/enterprise/article.asp?ContentID=6067
http://www.webaim.org/techniques/acrobat/
(links straight from Google)

You may have noticed that the subject of pdf's was quite explosive at
WE04. Some believe that PDF's should be avoided where-ever possible,
while others believe that if you make pdf's as accessible as possible
then you have done you bit.

Bruce Maguire (HEROC) believes that currently developers should try to
provide pdf content in some other form - such as html.

HTH
Russ


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Re: [WSG] PDF to HTML conversions

[Andrew Ivin]

Hi Bhuvnesh,

I don't know if this may suit your needs, but google's search results
for PDF's also provides a html version of the PDF.


On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:37:15 +1000, CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> The WE04 was great but unfortunately none of the speakers discussed the
> issue of making PDF files accessible. I am currently facing this
> problem.
> 
> Does anyone have ideas about the tools in market to convert PDF into
> HTML or any other ways to make the PDF files accessible.
> 
> Any thoughts would be welcome.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bhuvnesh Chaudhry
> 
> *
> This e-mail message (along with any attachments) is intended only for the named 
> addressee and could contain information that is confidential or privileged.  If you 
> are not the intended recipient you are notified that any dissemination, copying or 
> use of any of the information is prohibited.  Please notify us immediately by return 
> e-mail if you are not the intended recipient and delete all copies of the original 
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Re: [WSG] PDF to HTML conversions

[Amit Karmakar]

Bhuvnesh,

Try this also,

http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/support/Training/Online/webdesign/accessibility.html#plugins


On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:38:44 +1000, Andrew Ivin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Bhuvnesh,
> 
> I don't know if this may suit your needs, but google's search results
> for PDF's also provides a html version of the PDF.
> 
> On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:37:15 +1000, CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh
> 
> 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > The WE04 was great but unfortunately none of the speakers discussed the
> > issue of making PDF files accessible. I am currently facing this
> > problem.
> >
> > Does anyone have ideas about the tools in market to convert PDF into
> > HTML or any other ways to make the PDF files accessible.
> >
> > Any thoughts would be welcome.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Bhuvnesh Chaudhry
> >
> > *
> > This e-mail message (along with any attachments) is intended only for the named 
> > addressee and could contain information that is confidential or privileged.  If 
> > you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any dissemination, 
> > copying or use of any of the information is prohibited.  Please notify us 
> > immediately by return e-mail if you are not the intended recipient and delete all 
> > copies of the original message and attachments.
> >
> > This footnote also confirms that this message has been checked for computer 
> > viruses.
> >
> > *
> >
> > **
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> >
> >  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> >  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> > **
> >
> >
> 
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Re: [WSG] OL or UL? It´s rigth?

[Parker Torrence]

Yes you can
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html
section 10.2
see DEPRECATED EXAMPLE:

~parker


On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 05:46:20 +1000, Andrew Sione Taumoefolau
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Marky,
> 
> > My friend is asking me if i can use tags
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> No, you can't. Unordered lists can only have list items as child
> elements.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew Taumoefolau
> 
> 
> 
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Re:_[WSG]_OL_or_UL? _It´s_rigth?

[Paul Novitski]

At 05:19 PM 10/4/2004, Parker Torrence wrote:
Yes you can
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html
section 10.2
see DEPRECATED EXAMPLE:
which is:

  ... Level one, number one...
 
 ... Level two, number one...
 ... Level two, number two...

... Level three, number one...

 ... Level two, number three...
 
  ... Level one, number two...


It's my understanding that the LI tags remain open until closed either 
explicitly with  or implicitly by the next  or the final  or 
.

Because this example is HTML, not XHTML, and the LI tags are not explicitly 
closed, I believe that the OLs in that example are embedded in fact in the 
LIs and not the UL/OL elements.

The same is true of the old-fashioned table markup.  If you saw this:

   
  Here is a
 paragraph
  Here's another cell
 
...would you say the paragraph was embedded in the TD, the TR, or the 
TABLE?  It's in the TD, of course.

Paul 

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[WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links

[Richard Czeiger]

Hi guys,
 
I'm putting together a semantically correct UL of links for my 
footer.
I'd like to have them separated by 'pipes' as this is a common 
and easily recognised technique.
But the pipes themselves are irrelevant (semantically). So 
here's what I've come up with...
 
ALSO! My one thing is that if the text inside the links is 
made up of two or more words, then they get pushed to separate lines. Is there a 
way to avoid this without specifying a width or without putting a 'no 
broken spaces' between the words?
Can you suggest anything better?
 
 

#footer 
{
 text-align: center; 
}
#footer ul li {
 display: 
inline; width: 1px; 
 margin: auto 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: 
1px solid #00; 
 line-height: 120%; 
}
#footer ul 
li:first-child { border-left: none; }
/* Not rendered by a few agents, so 
we'll use the 'footerBorderKill' _javascript_ function switches off the first 
child's left border */

 
      link    
link with 
multiple words    link    link with NoBrokenSpaces    
link    
    xhtml    css    
cc  

 
//// 
Kills the Left Border on the Footer Navigation
function footerBorderKill() 
{
 myBody=document.getElementById('footer');
 myBodyElements=myBody.getElementsByTagName("ul"); 
// Gets all the UL elements that are children of 'footer'
 for( var i = 
0; i < myBodyElements.length; i++ ) 
{
  myList=myBodyElements.item(i); // Loops through all the ULs in 
the footer
  myListElements=myList.getElementsByTagName("li"); // 
Gets all the LI elements that are children of the 
ULs
  myLI=myListElements.item(0); // Gets the first item of the 
list of LI elements
  myLI.style.borderLeft = 'none'; // And sets 
its border to nothing
 }
}
window.>//]]>
 

Re: [WSG] OL or UL? It´s rigth?

[Nick Gleitzman]

On Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004, at 10:19 Australia/Sydney, Parker Torrence 
wrote:

Yes you can
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html
section 10.2
see DEPRECATED EXAMPLE:
~parker
OK, maybe so... but deprecated means it's not a good idea to use it 
(just because it 'works' doesn't mean you should).

Whether you're using HTML4 or XHTML, it's simply a good idea to close 
all tags. This is what's known as 'well-formed markup' - and is 
definitely best practice.

N
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[WSG] Re: Re:_[WSG]_OL_or_UL? _It´s_rigth?

[Genau Junior]

Thank you everybody.

Paul, Torrence, Nick and others .

I understood the semantic order.


- Original Message -
From: "Paul Novitski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 9:54 PM
Subject: Re:_[WSG]_OL_or_UL? _It´s_rigth?


> At 05:19 PM 10/4/2004, Parker Torrence wrote:
> >Yes you can
> >http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html
> >section 10.2
> >see DEPRECATED EXAMPLE:
>
> which is:
> >
> >   ... Level one, number one...
> >  
> >  ... Level two, number one...
> >  ... Level two, number two...
> > 
> > ... Level three, number one...
> > 
> >  ... Level two, number three...
> >  
> >   ... Level one, number two...
> >
>
>
> It's my understanding that the LI tags remain open until closed either
> explicitly with  or implicitly by the next  or the final  or
> .
>
> Because this example is HTML, not XHTML, and the LI tags are not
explicitly
> closed, I believe that the OLs in that example are embedded in fact in the
> LIs and not the UL/OL elements.
>
> The same is true of the old-fashioned table markup.  If you saw this:
>
>  
> 
>Here is a
>   paragraph
>Here's another cell
>   
>
> ...would you say the paragraph was embedded in the TD, the TR, or the
> TABLE?  It's in the TD, of course.
>
> Paul
>
>
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>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>


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[WSG] Left and right: inline content...

[Joshua Street]

Hi all.  I'm trying to do something which I know is easy with tables, but of course, 
that's not my first preference.  Basically, it's a footer line with an ABN number (for 
non-Australians, a business registration number) on the left, and an unordered list on 
the right with validation links, an accessibility policy link, etc.

I want it to look like this:

 _
|ABN 72797798055  |XHTML|CSS|Accessibility|Top|
|_|

Markup currently goes:

ABN 72797798055
 
   http://validator.w3c.org/check/referer";>XHTML
   http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer";>CSS
   Accessibility
   Top
 


And the CSS:

#footer {clear:both;text-align:left;}

#standardsline {float:right;display:inline;}
#standardsline li {display:inline;list-style-type:none;}

I've stripped irrelevant (presentation aside from layout) CSS from that, and the 
display:inline in #standards line is probably unnecessary -- That's just me trying to 
get it to work.

Currently, it's displaying like this:

 _
|ABN 72797798055  |
|_|XHTML|CSS|Accessibility|Top|

which sucks.  Well, not completely, but it's not how I want it to look.

Any suggestions?

Joshua Street
base10solutions
<>

Re: [WSG] Left and right: inline content...

[Hugh Todd]

Joshua,
Try putting the ABN in a p tag, giving it a width (in ems) and floating  
it left. You will also need to give your ul a width.

It's easier to see what's going on if you give your elements background  
colours (temporarily).

-Hugh Todd
Hi all.  I'm trying to do something which I know is easy with tables,  
but of course, that's not my first preference.  Basically, it's a  
footer line with an ABN number (for non-Australians, a business  
registration number) on the left, and an unordered list on the right  
with validation links, an accessibility policy link, etc.

I want it to look like this:
  
___ 
__
|ABN 72797798055   
|XHTML|CSS|Accessibility|Top|
|__ 
___|

Markup currently goes:
ABN 72797798055
 
   http://validator.w3c.org/check/referer";>XHTML
   http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer";>CSS
   Accessibility
   Top
 


And the CSS:
#footer {clear:both;text-align:left;}
#standardsline {float:right;display:inline;}
#standardsline li {display:inline;list-style-type:none;}
I've stripped irrelevant (presentation aside from layout) CSS from  
that, and the display:inline in #standards line is probably  
unnecessary -- That's just me trying to get it to work.

Currently, it's displaying like this:
  
___ 
__
|ABN 72797798055
   |
|_|XHTML|CSS|Accessibility| 
Top|

which sucks.  Well, not completely, but it's not how I want it to look.
Any suggestions?
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Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links

[Kevin Futter]

Title: Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links



For the line wrapping issue, you could try:

whitespace: nowrap;

On whatever element is giving you trouble.

Cheers,
Kevin Futter

On 5/10/04 11:28 AM, "Richard Czeiger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi guys,
 
I'm putting together a semantically correct UL of links for my footer.
I'd like to have them separated by 'pipes' as this is a common and easily recognised technique.
But the pipes themselves are irrelevant (semantically). So here's what I've come up with...
 
ALSO! My one thing is that if the text inside the links is made up of two or more words, then they get pushed to separate lines. Is there a way to avoid this without specifying a width or without putting a 'no broken spaces' between the words?
Can you suggest anything better?
 
 


#footer {

 text-align: center; 

}

#footer ul li {

 display: inline; width: 1px; 

 margin: auto 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: 1px solid #00; 

 line-height: 120%; 

}

#footer ul li:first-child { border-left: none; }

/* Not rendered by a few agents, so we'll use the 'footerBorderKill' _javascript_ function switches off the first child's left border */


 

  
link
link with multiple words
link
link with NoBrokenSpaces
link
  
  
http://validator.w3.org/check/referer" rel="external" title="Check XHTML">xhtml
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer" rel="external" title="Check CSS">css
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/" rel="external" title="View license">cc
  

 
//
// Kills the Left Border on the Footer Navigation

function footerBorderKill() {

 myBody=document.getElementById('footer');

 myBodyElements=myBody.getElementsByTagName("ul"); // Gets all the UL elements that are children of 'footer'

 for( var i = 0; i < myBodyElements.length; i++ ) {

  myList=myBodyElements.item(i); // Loops through all the ULs in the footer

  myListElements=myList.getElementsByTagName("li"); // Gets all the LI elements that are children of the ULs

  myLI=myListElements.item(0); // Gets the first item of the list of LI elements

  myLI.style.borderLeft = 'none'; // And sets its border to nothing

 }

}

window.>
//]]>
 

Re: [WSG] Left and right: inline content...

[Joseph Lindsay]

Hi Joshua,

try wrapping the abn in .

#footer {clear: both;}
#footer p {float:left;}
#footer ul {float: right;}
#footer li {display:inline;}

Joe



On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:49:01 +1000, Joshua Street
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all.  I'm trying to do something which I know is easy with tables, but of course, 
> that's not my first preference.  Basically, it's a footer line with an ABN number 
> (for non-Australians, a business registration number) on the left, and an unordered 
> list on the right with validation links, an accessibility policy link, etc.
> 
> I want it to look like this:
> 
>  _
> |ABN 72797798055  |XHTML|CSS|Accessibility|Top|
> |_|
> 
> Markup currently goes:
> 
> ABN 72797798055
>  
>http://validator.w3c.org/check/referer";>XHTML
>http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer";>CSS
>Accessibility
>Top
>  
> 
> 
> And the CSS:
> 
> #footer {clear:both;text-align:left;}
> 
> #standardsline {float:right;display:inline;}
> #standardsline li {display:inline;list-style-type:none;}
> 
> I've stripped irrelevant (presentation aside from layout) CSS from that, and the 
> display:inline in #standards line is probably unnecessary -- That's just me trying 
> to get it to work.
> 
> Currently, it's displaying like this:
> 
>  _
> |ABN 72797798055  |
> |_|XHTML|CSS|Accessibility|Top|
> 
> which sucks.  Well, not completely, but it's not how I want it to look.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Joshua Street
> base10solutions
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links

[Richard Czeiger]

Title: Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links



Sure but this only works on, like, two browsers!
Is there a funckier CSS hack kind of way?
 
:o)
Richard

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kevin Futter 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 12:02 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 
  'pipes' for footer links
  For the line wrapping issue, you could 
  try:whitespace: nowrap;On whatever element is giving you 
  trouble.Cheers,Kevin FutterOn 5/10/04 11:28 AM, "Richard 
  Czeiger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote:
  Hi guys, I'm putting together a 
semantically correct UL of links for my footer.I'd like to have them 
separated by 'pipes' as this is a common and easily recognised 
technique.But the pipes themselves are irrelevant (semantically). So 
here's what I've come up with... ALSO! My one thing is that if 
the text inside the links is made up of two or more words, then they get 
pushed to separate lines. Is there a way to avoid this without specifying a 
width or without putting a 'no broken spaces' between the words?Can you 
suggest anything better?  
#footer {
 text-align: center; 

}
#footer ul li {
 display: inline; width: 1px; 

 margin: auto 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: 1px solid 
#00; 
 line-height: 120%; 
}
#footer ul li:first-child { 
border-left: none; }
/* Not rendered by a few agents, so we'll use the 
'footerBorderKill' _javascript_ function switches off the first child's left 
border */
   linklink with multiple 
wordslinklink with NoBrokenSpaceslinkhttp://validator.w3.org/check/referer" 
rel="external" title="Check 
XHTML">xhtmlhttp://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer" 
rel="external" title="Check 
CSS">csshttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/" 
rel="external" title="View 
license">cc   //// Kills the Left Border on the 
Footer Navigation
function footerBorderKill() 
{
 myBody=document.getElementById('footer');
 myBodyElements=myBody.getElementsByTagName("ul"); 
// Gets all the UL elements that are children of 'footer'
 for( var 
i = 0; i < myBodyElements.length; i++ ) 
{
  myList=myBodyElements.item(i); // Loops through all the ULs 
in the 
footer
  myListElements=myList.getElementsByTagName("li"); // 
Gets all the LI elements that are children of the 
ULs
  myLI=myListElements.item(0); // Gets the first item of 
the list of LI elements
  myLI.style.borderLeft = 'none'; // 
And sets its border to nothing
 }
}
window.>//]]> 

Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links

[Ben Hamilton]

The method your using looks similar to the one described on A List Apart 
www.a*list**apart*.com/articles/taming*list*s/ ?? or  it could have come 
from http://glazkov.com/blog/articles/CssPipedList.aspx

I have an example at http://hamilton.id.au/temp/pipedlist.html using 
multiple words per item.

Ben Hamilton.
Richard Czeiger wrote:
Sure but this only works on, like, two browsers!
Is there a funckier CSS hack kind of way?
 
:o)

Richard
- Original Message -
*From:* Kevin Futter 
*To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 05, 2004 12:02 PM
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links
For the line wrapping issue, you could try:
whitespace: nowrap;
On whatever element is giving you trouble.
Cheers,
Kevin Futter
On 5/10/04 11:28 AM, "Richard Czeiger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
Hi guys,
 
I'm putting together a semantically correct UL of links for my
footer.
I'd like to have them separated by 'pipes' as this is a common
and easily recognised technique.
But the pipes themselves are irrelevant (semantically). So
here's what I've come up with...
 
ALSO! My one thing is that if the text inside the links is
made up of two or more words, then they get pushed to separate
lines. Is there a way to avoid this without specifying a width
or without putting a 'no broken spaces' between the words?
Can you suggest anything better?
 
 


#footer {

 text-align: center;

}

#footer ul li {

 display: inline; width: 1px;

 margin: auto 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: 1px solid

#00;

 line-height: 120%;

}

#footer ul li:first-child { border-left: none; }

/* Not rendered by a few agents, so we'll use the

'footerBorderKill' javascript function switches off the first

child's left border */


 

  

accesskey="1">link
link
with multiple words

accesskey="3">link

accesskey="4">link with NoBrokenSpaces

accesskey="5">link
  
  
http://validator.w3.org/check/referer";
rel="external" title="Check XHTML">xhtml

href="http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer";
rel="external" title="Check CSS">css

href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/";
rel="external" title="View license">cc
  

 
//
// Kills the Left Border on the Footer Navigation

function footerBorderKill() {

 myBody=document.getElementById('footer');

 myBodyElements=myBody.getElementsByTagName("ul"); // Gets all

the UL elements that are children of 'footer'

 for( var i = 0; i < myBodyElements.length; i++ ) {

  myList=myBodyElements.item(i); // Loops through all the ULs

in the footer

  myListElements=myList.getElementsByTagName("li"); // Gets

all the LI elements that are children of the ULs

  myLI=myListElements.item(0); // Gets the first item of the

list of LI elements

  myLI.style.borderLeft = 'none'; // And sets its border to

nothing

 }

}

window.onload = footerBorderKill;

//]]>
 



--
Ben Hamilton
0410 460 333
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links

[Neerav]

Richard
See how I display the pipes on the horizontal menu at www.bhatt.id.au 
using css borders.

the list itself has a border-left, and all list items have a border-right
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Richard Czeiger wrote:
Sure but this only works on, like, two browsers!
Is there a funckier CSS hack kind of way?
 
:o)

Richard
- Original Message -
*From:* Kevin Futter 
*To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 05, 2004 12:02 PM
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links
For the line wrapping issue, you could try:
whitespace: nowrap;
On whatever element is giving you trouble.
Cheers,
Kevin Futter
On 5/10/04 11:28 AM, "Richard Czeiger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
Hi guys,
 
I'm putting together a semantically correct UL of links for my
footer.
I'd like to have them separated by 'pipes' as this is a common
and easily recognised technique.
But the pipes themselves are irrelevant (semantically). So
here's what I've come up with...
 
ALSO! My one thing is that if the text inside the links is made
up of two or more words, then they get pushed to separate lines.
Is there a way to avoid this without specifying a width or
without putting a 'no broken spaces' between the words?
Can you suggest anything better?
 
 


#footer {

 text-align: center;

}

#footer ul li {

 display: inline; width: 1px;

 margin: auto 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: 1px solid

#00;

 line-height: 120%;

}

#footer ul li:first-child { border-left: none; }

/* Not rendered by a few agents, so we'll use the

'footerBorderKill' javascript function switches off the first

child's left border */


 

  

accesskey="1">link
link
with multiple words

accesskey="3">link

accesskey="4">link with NoBrokenSpaces

accesskey="5">link
  
  
http://validator.w3.org/check/referer";
rel="external" title="Check XHTML">xhtml

href="http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer";
rel="external" title="Check CSS">css

href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/";
rel="external" title="View license">cc
  

 
//
// Kills the Left Border on the Footer Navigation

function footerBorderKill() {

 myBody=document.getElementById('footer');

 myBodyElements=myBody.getElementsByTagName("ul"); // Gets all

the UL elements that are children of 'footer'

 for( var i = 0; i < myBodyElements.length; i++ ) {

  myList=myBodyElements.item(i); // Loops through all the ULs in

the footer

  myListElements=myList.getElementsByTagName("li"); // Gets all

the LI elements that are children of the ULs

  myLI=myListElements.item(0); // Gets the first item of the

list of LI elements

  myLI.style.borderLeft = 'none'; // And sets its border to nothing

 }

}

window.onload = footerBorderKill;

//]]>
 


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Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links

[Richard Czeiger]

Thanks for the feedback guys but the problem persists !  :o)

While Neerav's solution puts pipes before the first and after the last - I
am trying to get rid of these so that it looks like this:

link | link | link | link

and NOT

| link | link | link | link |

see?

Ben's solution requires a separate class attached to the first list item.
Again - this is kind of clunky when you're trying to work with the best
possible form of an inherited cascade.
That's why I used the JavaScript to kill the first LI in each UL in the
"footer" - at least until the pseudo class firstChild is implemented by
browsers.

Also the Taming Lists article looses it's styling for IE 5 and above (same
with the Practical CSS Layout Tips article).

Anyone else?

Richard  :o)


- Original Message -
From: "Neerav" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links


Richard

See how I display the pipes on the horizontal menu at www.bhatt.id.au
using css borders.

the list itself has a border-left, and all list items have a border-right

Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27

http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav

Richard Czeiger wrote:
>
> Sure but this only works on, like, two browsers!
> Is there a funckier CSS hack kind of way?
>
> :o)
>
> Richard
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Kevin Futter 
> *To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 05, 2004 12:02 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links
>
> For the line wrapping issue, you could try:
>
> whitespace: nowrap;
>
> On whatever element is giving you trouble.
>
> Cheers,
> Kevin Futter
>
> On 5/10/04 11:28 AM, "Richard Czeiger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> I'm putting together a semantically correct UL of links for my
> footer.
> I'd like to have them separated by 'pipes' as this is a common
> and easily recognised technique.
> But the pipes themselves are irrelevant (semantically). So
> here's what I've come up with...
>
> ALSO! My one thing is that if the text inside the links is made
> up of two or more words, then they get pushed to separate lines.
> Is there a way to avoid this without specifying a width or
> without putting a 'no broken spaces' between the words?
> Can you suggest anything better?
>
>
> 
> #footer {
>  text-align: center;
> }
> #footer ul li {
>  display: inline; width: 1px;
>  margin: auto 5px; padding-left: 10px; border-left: 1px solid
> #00;
>  line-height: 120%;
> }
> #footer ul li:first-child { border-left: none; }
> /* Not rendered by a few agents, so we'll use the
> 'footerBorderKill' javascript function switches off the first
> child's left border */
> 
>
> 
>   
>  accesskey="1">link
> link
> with multiple words
>  accesskey="3">link
>  accesskey="4">link with NoBrokenSpaces
>  accesskey="5">link
>   
>   
> http://validator.w3.org/check/referer";
> rel="external" title="Check XHTML">xhtml
>  href="http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer";
> rel="external" title="Check CSS">css
>  href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/";
> rel="external" title="View license">cc
>   
> 
>
> // // Kills the Left Border on the Footer Navigation
> function footerBorderKill() {
>  myBody=document.getElementById('footer');
>  myBodyElements=myBody.getElementsByTagName("ul"); // Gets all
> the UL elements that are children of 'footer'
>  for( var i = 0; i < myBodyElements.length; i++ ) {
>   myList=myBodyElements.item(i); // Loops through all the ULs in
> the footer
>   myListElements=myList.getElementsByTagName("li"); // Gets all
> the LI elements that are children of the ULs
>   myLI=myListElements.item(0); // Gets the first item of the
> list of LI elements
>   myLI.style.borderLeft = 'none'; // And sets its border to
nothing
>  }
> }
> window.onload = footerBorderKill;
> file://]]>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] be-nice-to-IE/MAC @media rule

[Natalie Buxton]

Hi Terrence

This does indeed look like it could be useful, could you show an
example in context? Eg with rules above and below for people like me
who need it a little clearer?

Thanks so much.

Natalie

--
Freelance Website Designer/Developer
www.pixelkitty.net
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[WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists

[Todd Baker]

Hi Guys,

I have just joined the list after attending WE04. 

My name is Todd Baker and I work as a XSLT/XHTML/CSS developer in Sydney.

I am doing a big CSS based rebuild for one of our clients and am
having some troubles with our "fluid" layout.

I want to use horizontal lists for our primary navigation but the
designs requires that the nav items are fluid, i.e. the gap between
them grows and contracts with the browser width.

I have based the nav on this -->
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal16.htm but after
playing with % width's and margin's Im still not there.

Has anyone solved the same problem else where and has some tips to help me?

Thanks in advance.
**
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links

[Nick Gleitzman]

I have to say I'd use an extra class on the first li over that big 
chunk o' Javascript any day. Apart from the extra code, what if I have 
Javascript disabled?

My 2c...
N
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
On Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004, at 13:55 Australia/Sydney, Richard Czeiger 
wrote:

Thanks for the feedback guys but the problem persists !  :o)
While Neerav's solution puts pipes before the first and after the last 
- I
am trying to get rid of these so that it looks like this:

link | link | link | link
and NOT
| link | link | link | link |
see?
Ben's solution requires a separate class attached to the first list 
item.
Again - this is kind of clunky when you're trying to work with the best
possible form of an inherited cascade.
That's why I used the JavaScript to kill the first LI in each UL in the
"footer" - at least until the pseudo class firstChild is implemented by
browsers.

Also the Taming Lists article looses it's styling for IE 5 and above 
(same
with the Practical CSS Layout Tips article).

Anyone else?
Richard  :o)
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for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists

[Neerav]

just a quick thought that may be completely wrong, but have you tried % 
based padding for  ?

Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Todd Baker wrote:
Hi Guys,
I have just joined the list after attending WE04. 

My name is Todd Baker and I work as a XSLT/XHTML/CSS developer in Sydney.
I am doing a big CSS based rebuild for one of our clients and am
having some troubles with our "fluid" layout.
I want to use horizontal lists for our primary navigation but the
designs requires that the nav items are fluid, i.e. the gap between
them grows and contracts with the browser width.
I have based the nav on this -->
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal16.htm but after
playing with % width's and margin's Im still not there.
Has anyone solved the same problem else where and has some tips to help me?
Thanks in advance.
**
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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RE: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links

[Bert]

Hi Richard

> Ben's solution requires a separate class attached to the 
> first list item. Again - this is kind of clunky when you're 
> trying to work with the best possible form of an inherited 
> cascade. That's why I used the JavaScript to kill the first 
> LI in each UL in the "footer" - at least until the pseudo 
> class firstChild is implemented by browsers.

To me, adding something like: class="FirstItem" to a couple of elements is
much less clunky than adding a dozen or so lines of JavaScript that may or
may not work, depending on browser settings.  I'd only use JavaScript as a
very last resort

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
www.bwdzine.com
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links

[Richard Czeiger]

Good point - I guess I might settle for Neerav's option and have the pipes
at the beginning and the end

phooey! wish i could've gotten a solution to that one  :o(
that's for eveyone's input though...

Richard


- Original Message -
From: "Nick Gleitzman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantically creating 'pipes' for footer links


I have to say I'd use an extra class on the first li over that big
chunk o' Javascript any day. Apart from the extra code, what if I have
Javascript disabled?

My 2c...

N
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
On Tuesday, Oct 5, 2004, at 13:55 Australia/Sydney, Richard Czeiger
wrote:

> Thanks for the feedback guys but the problem persists !  :o)
>
> While Neerav's solution puts pipes before the first and after the last
> - I
> am trying to get rid of these so that it looks like this:
>
> link | link | link | link
>
> and NOT
>
> | link | link | link | link |
>
> see?
>
> Ben's solution requires a separate class attached to the first list
> item.
> Again - this is kind of clunky when you're trying to work with the best
> possible form of an inherited cascade.
> That's why I used the JavaScript to kill the first LI in each UL in the
> "footer" - at least until the pseudo class firstChild is implemented by
> browsers.
>
> Also the Taming Lists article looses it's styling for IE 5 and above
> (same
> with the Practical CSS Layout Tips article).
>
> Anyone else?
>
> Richard  :o)

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Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists

[Richard Czeiger]

Nup - collapses in IE  :o(

Richard

- Original Message -
From: "Neerav" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists


just a quick thought that may be completely wrong, but have you tried %
based padding for  ?

Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27

http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav

Todd Baker wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I have just joined the list after attending WE04.
>
> My name is Todd Baker and I work as a XSLT/XHTML/CSS developer in Sydney.
>
> I am doing a big CSS based rebuild for one of our clients and am
> having some troubles with our "fluid" layout.
>
> I want to use horizontal lists for our primary navigation but the
> designs requires that the nav items are fluid, i.e. the gap between
> them grows and contracts with the browser width.
>
> I have based the nav on this -->
> http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal16.htm but after
> playing with % width's and margin's Im still not there.
>
> Has anyone solved the same problem else where and has some tips to help
me?
>
> Thanks in advance.
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists

[Todd Baker]

On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 14:20:24 +1000, Neerav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> just a quick thought that may be completely wrong, but have you tried %
> based padding for  ?
> 

Thanks Neerav,

Same thing.. I have to use VERY small % (like 1%) or it spreads out
HUGE and then it hardly expands at all as the browser grows.

Ive gotta find some solution or ill have to revert back to table cells :(
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[WSG] Semantics vs Light Code

[Luke Moulton]

Recent discussions about building a footer with numerous linked items
styled as an unordered list has got me thinking about correct semantics
verses light code/css.

In using strictly correct semantics to mark-up content I think sometimes
we run the risk of developing over complicated and bloated code.
Building an inline, styled un-ordered list with appropriate css can add
a bit of bulk to your css.

So on one hand there's smaller file sizes, uncomplicated CSS (with fewer
hacks) but imperfect semantics, and on the other there's perfect
semantics bloated CSS with a few hacks thrown in for good measure.

Where does one draw the line?

Luke Moulton

Go4 Multimedia
Web Design & Graphic Design
www.go4.com.au

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RE: [WSG] Semantics vs Light Code

[Herrod, Lisa]

... between each link.

Just make sure it's with css and not a pipe :)

-Original Message-
From: Luke Moulton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:51 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Semantics vs Light Code


Recent discussions about building a footer with numerous linked items
styled as an unordered list has got me thinking about correct semantics
verses light code/css.

In using strictly correct semantics to mark-up content I think sometimes
we run the risk of developing over complicated and bloated code.
Building an inline, styled un-ordered list with appropriate css can add
a bit of bulk to your css.

So on one hand there's smaller file sizes, uncomplicated CSS (with fewer
hacks) but imperfect semantics, and on the other there's perfect
semantics bloated CSS with a few hacks thrown in for good measure.

Where does one draw the line?

Luke Moulton

Go4 Multimedia
Web Design & Graphic Design
www.go4.com.au

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Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists

[Hugh Todd]

Todd,
If you turn the 'a's into block elements and float them left, adding no 
padding or border, you can give them widths of 20% and have them span 
the page.

#nav ul li a
 {
 padding: .2em 0;
 display: block;
 float: left;
 width: 20%;
 }
Of course, this means you lose your dividers. If you add them, you will 
have to reduce your "width" amount to something less than 20%. And, 
because min-width doesn't work in IE, your navigation bar will wrap 
when window size is reduced too far.

-Hugh Todd
Ive gotta find some solution or ill have to revert back to table cells 
:(
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Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists

[Jake Badger]

I did something like that for a project. From memory I ended up using something
like this (it had three items):

ul {
padding:0;
margin:0;
}
li {
display: inline;
list-style:none;
padding:0;
margin:0;
}
a {
width:33%;
float:left;
display:block;
text-align:center;
}


Jake

Quoting Richard Czeiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Nup - collapses in IE  :o(
>
> Richard
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Neerav" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists
>
>
> just a quick thought that may be completely wrong, but have you tried %
> based padding for  ?
>
> Neerav Bhatt
> http://www.bhatt.id.au
> Web Development & IT consultancy
> Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27
>
> http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
> http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
>
> Todd Baker wrote:
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > I have just joined the list after attending WE04.
> >
> > My name is Todd Baker and I work as a XSLT/XHTML/CSS developer in Sydney.
> >
> > I am doing a big CSS based rebuild for one of our clients and am
> > having some troubles with our "fluid" layout.
> >
> > I want to use horizontal lists for our primary navigation but the
> > designs requires that the nav items are fluid, i.e. the gap between
> > them grows and contracts with the browser width.
> >
> > I have based the nav on this -->
> > http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal16.htm but after
> > playing with % width's and margin's Im still not there.
> >
> > Has anyone solved the same problem else where and has some tips to help
> me?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> > **
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> >
> >  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> >  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists

[Jake Badger]

I've found adding dividers in the form of borders are more trouble than they are
worth in liquid horizontal lists. One solution is to put the dividers in as 1px
wide background images rather than left or right borders.

Jake

Quoting Hugh Todd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Todd,
>
> If you turn the 'a's into block elements and float them left, adding no
> padding or border, you can give them widths of 20% and have them span
> the page.
>
> #nav ul li a
>   {
>   padding: .2em 0;
>   display: block;
>   float: left;
>   width: 20%;
>   }
>
> Of course, this means you lose your dividers. If you add them, you will
> have to reduce your "width" amount to something less than 20%. And,
> because min-width doesn't work in IE, your navigation bar will wrap
> when window size is reduced too far.
>
> -Hugh Todd
>
> > Ive gotta find some solution or ill have to revert back to table cells
> > :(
>
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>
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Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists

[Todd Baker]

Interesting approach...

I was trying to use padding/margins as I wanted to ensure that XXX
menu itme wasnt as wide as XX if ya know what I mean.

Your solution does work but ive lost the variable widths. Ill have a
play with it.

Yeah the IE min-width thing is a b***ch. Im using the Project 7 script
solution at the moment... Seems to work ok.

Thanks Hugh

On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:06:59 +1000, Hugh Todd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Todd,
> 
> If you turn the 'a's into block elements and float them left, adding no
> padding or border, you can give them widths of 20% and have them span
> the page.
> 
> #nav ul li a
>   {
>   padding: .2em 0;
>   display: block;
>   float: left;
>   width: 20%;
>   }
> 
> Of course, this means you lose your dividers. If you add them, you will
> have to reduce your "width" amount to something less than 20%. And,
> because min-width doesn't work in IE, your navigation bar will wrap
> when window size is reduced too far.
> 
> -Hugh Todd
> 
> 
> 
> > Ive gotta find some solution or ill have to revert back to table cells
> > :(
> 
> **
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> 
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> 
>
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[WSG] Eric Myer interviewed for Apple Pro website

[Hugh Todd]

FYI
http://www.apple.com/pro/words/meyer/
-Hugh Todd
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Re: [WSG] be-nice-to-IE/MAC @media rule

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Oct 5, 2004, at 13:03, Natalie Buxton wrote:
This does indeed look like it could be useful, could you show an
example in context? Eg with rules above and below for people like me
who need it a little clearer?

It should be noted that this technique doesn't really enables @media 
for IE Mac; the rules will apply to all media if used.

Philippe
--/--\--
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blog : 
code | design | webprojects 
IE5  Mac bugs and oddities 
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Re: [WSG] PDF to HTML conversions

[Chris Bentley]

Does anyone have ideas about the tools in market to convert PDF into
HTML
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdftohtml/
cheers, Chris
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RE: [WSG] PDF to HTML conversions

[Kershaw, Lilania]

OminPage is an OCR program. Haven't used it yet, but supposed to convert PDFs to any 
document type - word, excel, htm, etc, and retain formatting. pretty cheap too, under 
1K

Lilania Kershaw 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Chris Bentley
Sent: Tuesday, 5 October 2004 3:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] PDF to HTML conversions


> Does anyone have ideas about the tools in market to convert PDF into
> HTML

http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdftohtml/

cheers, Chris

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Re: [WSG] IE 6 Hover Bug?

[Big John]

Daniel Bowling wrote:

> I am very confused about a rendering issue in IE 6.02 for an unreleased
> beta of my site.
> http://beta.danbowling.com/IFRindex.php

> For some reason when I mouse over several of my links on the left
> sidebar other divs reposition themselves. For example, hovering over the
> "more" link in About the Author moves the archives down, but they
> reposition themselves if I mouse over any of them. Can anyone see what
> is causing this?

Daniel, IE is known to have many float bugs, and one variety
is characterized by a vertical margin or padding being duplicated
further down the page. This type of dupe bug is always "togglable"
by hovering of links located in certain elements, but only when 
a background or certain other properties are changed on hover.

You happen to have such a bug, and the BG change on your lower 
hovered links causes the top margin on div#archives (apparently 
being duped onto the top of the cleared br) to vanish from the br.
Then, hovering of the links above the br restores the phantom
margin to the br.

You can fix this several ways, by removing that top margin, by
removing that cleared br (which seems not to be needed anyway),
or by changing the hover effect. The best is to lose the top margin
on div#archives and substituting a margin or padding on some other
element.

HTH
Big John



=
-- 
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[WSG] Table-style admin layouts

[Ryan Sabir]

Hi all,

Is there a best-practice way to build an item display with multiple
columns, but without using tables?

What I want to do is build something like this:

Name Price Quantity EditDelete
Apple $5.0025   [edit]  [delete]
Pear  $4.00 3   [edit]  [delete]
Banana   $12.00 5   [edit]  [delete]

But without cluttering the HTML with table layout data...

Or is this a case where its better to bite the bullet and just do it
in a table...?

I'm new here to please be gentle if this is a dumb question :)

thanks, bye!

---
Ryan Sabir
Newgency Pty Ltd
2a Broughton St
Paddington 2021
Sydney, Australia
Ph (02) 9331 2133
Fax (02) 9331 5199
Mobile: 0411 512 454
http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig 

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Re: [WSG] Fluid Horizontal Lists

[Jake Badger]

If that's what you want then can't you just move the padding to the a rather
than the li, it won't actiually make the nav bar go all the way across (you can
make it look like it does though), but it will make it get change width when the
windows does.

Jake

Quoting Todd Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Interesting approach...
>
> I was trying to use padding/margins as I wanted to ensure that XXX
> menu itme wasnt as wide as XX if ya know what I mean.
>
> Your solution does work but ive lost the variable widths. Ill have a
> play with it.
>
> Yeah the IE min-width thing is a b***ch. Im using the Project 7 script
> solution at the moment... Seems to work ok.
>
> Thanks Hugh
>
> On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:06:59 +1000, Hugh Todd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Todd,
> >
> > If you turn the 'a's into block elements and float them left, adding no
> > padding or border, you can give them widths of 20% and have them span
> > the page.
> >
> > #nav ul li a
> >   {
> >   padding: .2em 0;
> >   display: block;
> >   float: left;
> >   width: 20%;
> >   }
> >
> > Of course, this means you lose your dividers. If you add them, you will
> > have to reduce your "width" amount to something less than 20%. And,
> > because min-width doesn't work in IE, your navigation bar will wrap
> > when window size is reduced too far.
> >
> > -Hugh Todd
> >
> >
> >
> > > Ive gotta find some solution or ill have to revert back to table cells
> > > :(
> >
> > **
> > The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >
> >  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> >  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> > **
> >
> >
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>



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Re: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

[Neerav]

Theres no such thing as a dumb question!
Heres a tip, semantic code means using tags for the purpose they are 
meant to be used for eg:  to  for headings,  
for unordered lists and in your case for tabular data:







Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Ryan Sabir wrote:
Hi all,
Is there a best-practice way to build an item display with multiple
columns, but without using tables?
What I want to do is build something like this:
Name Price Quantity EditDelete
Apple $5.0025   [edit]  [delete]
Pear  $4.00 3   [edit]  [delete]
Banana   $12.00 5   [edit]  [delete]
But without cluttering the HTML with table layout data...
Or is this a case where its better to bite the bullet and just do it
in a table...?
I'm new here to please be gentle if this is a dumb question :)
thanks, bye!
---
Ryan Sabir
Newgency Pty Ltd
2a Broughton St
Paddington 2021
Sydney, Australia
Ph (02) 9331 2133
Fax (02) 9331 5199
Mobile: 0411 512 454
http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig 

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Re: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

[Jake Badger]

It's tabular data, so you should use a table. It displays reliably, it's
semantically correct and if implemented correctly it's usable for screen
readers. It's best to use all of the semantic table elements (th, tbody, thead,
summary, caption) if you can.

Jake

Quoting Ryan Sabir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hi all,
>
> Is there a best-practice way to build an item display with multiple
> columns, but without using tables?
>
> What I want to do is build something like this:
>
> Name Price Quantity EditDelete
> Apple $5.0025   [edit]  [delete]
> Pear  $4.00 3   [edit]  [delete]
> Banana   $12.00 5   [edit]  [delete]
>
> But without cluttering the HTML with table layout data...
>
> Or is this a case where its better to bite the bullet and just do it
> in a table...?
>
> I'm new here to please be gentle if this is a dumb question :)
>
> thanks, bye!
>
> ---
> Ryan Sabir
> Newgency Pty Ltd
> 2a Broughton St
> Paddington 2021
> Sydney, Australia
> Ph (02) 9331 2133
> Fax (02) 9331 5199
> Mobile: 0411 512 454
> http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig
>
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>



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RE: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

[Herrod, Lisa]

Hi Ryan,

This isn't a dumb question, and is one that people often get confused about
when moving towards web standards.

While the correct way of presenting data like this in tables, it's more
important to do it correctly. That means using the right (symantically
correct) tags.

Anyway, in a nut shell, make sure this type of information is presented in a
table and use the   element for all cells that should be read as
headings. If you don't like the bold centred look you can re-style it with
css. Following that, learn how to use the 'summary', 'header' and 'id'
attributes - They're essential to providing equal access to all users to the
data in your tables.

In this situation (tablular data)  is actually more appropriate than h1
- h6 as it provides a better reference/relevance to the data contained in
the table.

There are other elements such as caption, thead, tbody. But at least, make
sure you've mastered the above.

There have been some good presentations by Mark Stanton on this topic
recently, one at web essentials and the other at the last WSG meeting (see
you should have been there!).

hope that helps,

lisa



-Original Message-
From: Ryan Sabir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 4:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts


Hi all,

Is there a best-practice way to build an item display with multiple
columns, but without using tables?

What I want to do is build something like this:

Name Price Quantity EditDelete
Apple $5.0025   [edit]  [delete]
Pear  $4.00 3   [edit]  [delete]
Banana   $12.00 5   [edit]  [delete]

But without cluttering the HTML with table layout data...

Or is this a case where its better to bite the bullet and just do it
in a table...?

I'm new here to please be gentle if this is a dumb question :)

thanks, bye!

---
Ryan Sabir
Newgency Pty Ltd
2a Broughton St
Paddington 2021
Sydney, Australia
Ph (02) 9331 2133
Fax (02) 9331 5199
Mobile: 0411 512 454
http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig 

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RE: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

[Focas, Grant]

Ryan, this is tabular data, just what tables are built for. Go for it!

Grant 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ryan Sabir
Sent: Tuesday, 5 October 2004 4:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts


Hi all,

Is there a best-practice way to build an item display with multiple
columns, but without using tables?

What I want to do is build something like this:

Name Price Quantity EditDelete
Apple $5.0025   [edit]  [delete]
Pear  $4.00 3   [edit]  [delete]
Banana   $12.00 5   [edit]  [delete]

But without cluttering the HTML with table layout data...

Or is this a case where its better to bite the bullet and just do it
in a table...?

I'm new here to please be gentle if this is a dumb question :)

thanks, bye!

---
Ryan Sabir
Newgency Pty Ltd
2a Broughton St
Paddington 2021
Sydney, Australia
Ph (02) 9331 2133
Fax (02) 9331 5199
Mobile: 0411 512 454
http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig 

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privileged information or confidential information or both. If you
are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender.
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Re: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

[Rick Faaberg]

On 10/4/04 11:22 PM "Ryan Sabir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> Name Price Quantity EditDelete
> Apple $5.0025   [edit]  [delete]
> Pear  $4.00 3   [edit]  [delete]
> Banana   $12.00 5   [edit]  [delete]
> 
> But without cluttering the HTML with table layout data...
> 
> Or is this a case where its better to bite the bullet and just do it
> in a table...?

I vote for "it's tabular data - use a table".

Rick Faaberg

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RE: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

[Peter Ottery]

>> Is 
there a best-practice way to build an item 
>> display 
with multiple columns, but without using tables?
 
>> Name Price 
Quantity Edit    Delete>> 
Apple $5.00    
25   [edit]  
[delete]>> Pear  
$4.00 
3   [edit]  
[delete]>> Banana   $12.00 
5   [edit]  
[delete]1 vote for "thats table data - use a 
table"and your bananas are very expensive.:) pete 

[WSG] XHTML external links

[Richard Czeiger]

Hi guys - having a little problem with the whole external links in XHTML
strict.
Code's below - doesn't seem to be working - can you help out?

http://www.google.com.au/"; rel="external">new window



function externalLinks()

  if (!document.getElementsByTagName) return;
var anchors = document.getElementsByTagName("a");
for (var i=0; i

Re: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

[Paul Novitski]

At 11:22 PM 10/4/2004, Ryan Sabir wrote:
Is there a best-practice way to build an item display with multiple
columns, but without using tables?
What I want to do is build something like this:
Name Price Quantity EditDelete
Apple $5.0025   [edit]  [delete]
Pear  $4.00 3   [edit]  [delete]
Banana   $12.00 5   [edit]  [delete]
But without cluttering the HTML with table layout data...

Yes, use a table, but no, don't clutter your html with layout 
attributes.  Move all the rules for how things should look to a separate 
CSS file, leaving your html clean & sleek.

The most clutter you'll need to deal with are class names in your TD tags 
to deal with the variety of data formats you're presenting:


Apple
$5.00
25



This way you can make decisions about how each cell is formatted & aligned 
separately from your decisions about which data appear there.

Cheers,
Paul 

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Re: [WSG] Table-style admin layouts

[Tony Crockford]

At 07:48 on Tuesday, 05 Oct 2004, Peter Ottery wrote:
Is there a best-practice way to build an item
display with multiple columns, but without using tables?

Name Price Quantity EditDelete
Apple $5.0025   [edit]  [delete]
Pear  $4.00 3   [edit]  [delete]
Banana   $12.00 5   [edit]  [delete]

1 vote for "thats table data - use a table"

A small concern here...
The subject line and the presence of edit and delete columns suggest that  
this is in fact an interactive form, not a display of tabular data.

shouldn't we be pointing to all the good stuff on form styling and layout?
(eg http://www.aplus.co.yu/dots/109/)
or are we saying that forms with tabular data (and edit/delete buttons)  
can be in tables?

;o)


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