Re: [wsjt-devel] New subscriber :)
I agree with most of what you say but I am very opposed to changing timings , without some planning. To be widely accepted for more than EME Q65 should be enhanced with 7.5 and perhaps even 3.75 sec sequencing. In many cases speed beats sensitivity and Averaging helps increasing sensitivity to some extend by adding several short periods together. Most WSJT QSO's are done many dB above the minimum sensitivity. In high population density areas such as PA, DL, ON, G and others it is imperative that timings and who goes first are adhered to. Certainly for the 6m- 70cms bands, for uwave bands this is not a problem. I understand your reasoning, particularly on 6m and 2m Es where signals are only there for 1min but too much choice is a recipe for mayhem. These are weak signal modes which are completely wrecked by local stations transmitting in your RX periods. It is fine of course that we agree on 7.5sec for Es openings but we MUST agree beforehand. I have tended to use Q65 for IONO or weak tropo on 2m. It works very well for this with 30s periods. Of course if we do not adopt a fixed frequency per band like FT8 then it does not matter. Regards Conrad PA5Y From: Palle Preben-Hansen, OZ1RH via wsjt-devel Sent: 18 June 2023 12:15 To: WSJT software development Cc: Palle Preben-Hansen, OZ1RH Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] New subscriber :) The way the different contest exchanges are implemented in WSJT is confusing and has been discussed many times. Users has to select "EU VHF" if they are in a HF contest requiring either a serial number and/or the full 6-digit locator. Trying to use a particular contest exchange may resulting in a window at the other station "Do you want to change to xxx mode". As WSJT in this situation can display a window, WSJT might just as well just change to that mode and send the needed exchange. I suggest the labeling on the Settings page regarding contest "modes" is split into several saying: "I need an exchange with serial number" "I need an exchange with your 6-digit locator" "I need an exchange for NA fieldday" When a station calls CQ with some of these options set, WSJT in FT4/8, MSK144 or Q65 of the answering station should automatically transmit the requested exchange without flashing a confusing window about a particular contest mode. The logic should be that you request the exchange you need and you get it without intervention from the other station. This should keep all happy and one only transmits the exchanges needed by the other station. Btw FT4/8 is not well suited for VHF, as everyone is QRM'ing each other on the same frequency. FT8 does not even play well with aurora, but few knows what they at not decoding. Q65 is developed for VHF and up and MAP65 can find all Q65 signal within about 200 kHz enabling all stations to spread out and use more of the band (use it or loose it). Perhaps Q65 will work well on HF too? To be widely accepted for more than EME Q65 should be enhanced with 7.5 and perhaps even 3.75 sec sequencing. In many cases speed beats sensitivity and Averaging helps increasing sensitivity to some extend by adding several short periods together. Most WSJT QSO's are done many dB above the minimum sensitivity. Also Q65 should by default use a setting (sequence and A-E) suited for the band in use. In case someone wants to try other than the default settings they could be changed in Advanced settings. 73, Palle, OZ1RH. ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] New subscriber :)
Hej Palle, I identified two main issues in your mail, (1) naming of contest modes and how contests are supported and (2) a new way how protocol should support user needs. Contests naming and supporting protocols (1) Perhaps it is better to start what is supported in the current autosequence machine and needed messages/information elements. The first set of contests are NA VHF Contest, ARRL International Digital Contest, Q65 Pileup and WW Digi Contest. The contest exchange is Locator. The message is Type 1. Std Msg. At VHF the use of 73 is listed, but is defined as optional. The second is ARRL Field Day that requires two part field day exchange (actually three different elements) and there are two messages Type 0.3 and 0.4. The third is EU VHF Contest requires rpt, QSO number and six digit locator and there are two messages needed Type 2. and 5. to support it. The fourth is FT Roundup (ex. RTTY RU) contest exchange is rpt and ARRL section/DX and another message Type 3. How to identify a contest? That’s really difficult with the four first ones as the only possibility is the call direction field e.g. TEST, well WW Digi already uses WW. The ARRL Field Day used FD and thee contest exchange messages do separate it from other types. In the EU VHF CQ and the first directed message are the same as in the first group, it is proposed that the contest identifier should be NAC. After that the proper messages require use of the special activity selection. The FT Roundup identified in CQ by the RU must be answered with the special activity message. Of course any contest may select to use one of those four contest/field day exchanges. Now the difficult part is that many non-contesters don’t know meaning of TEST, WW, FD, NAC, RU or any other contest specific call direction. (2) Request for specific information. You list as such may not be working as the first two do refer to EU VHF Contest, the FT Roundup is missing as well as those using four digit locator, hi! On the other hand contest rules could just name the suitable protocol from the current options independently of the band. Your actual proposal is that operator could request specific information (one of the message types) and the program would generate that message. That would require a new message as there is not enough room in current messages to include that information. It would need five additional bits to cover existing contest types. I assume that in addition the ‘Interrogation’ message should contain at least two callsigns. Of course CQ message should also have that interrogation feature. NonStandard callsigns is another issue and may be totally outside of this discussion. The actual behavior of the state machines is a bit more complicated and should be discussed as the ‘interrogation’ information does not fit into all messages. That’s my two Öre’s. 73, Reino OH3mA From: Palle Preben-Hansen, OZ1RH via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: sunnuntai 18. kesäkuuta 2023 13.15 Cc: Palle Preben-Hansen, OZ1RH Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] New subscriber :) The way the different contest exchanges are implemented in WSJT is confusing and has been discussed many times. Users has to select "EU VHF" if they are in a HF contest requiring either a serial number and/or the full 6-digit locator. Trying to use a particular contest exchange may resulting in a window at the other station "Do you want to change to xxx mode". As WSJT in this situation can display a window, WSJT might just as well just change to that mode and send the needed exchange. I suggest the labeling on the Settings page regarding contest "modes" is split into several saying: "I need an exchange with serial number" "I need an exchange with your 6-digit locator" "I need an exchange for NA fieldday" When a station calls CQ with some of these options set, WSJT in FT4/8, MSK144 or Q65 of the answering station should automatically transmit the requested exchange without flashing a confusing window about a particular contest mode. The logic should be that you request the exchange you need and you get it without intervention from the other station. This should keep all happy and one only transmits the exchanges needed by the other station. ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] New subscriber :)
The way the different contest exchanges are implemented in WSJT is confusing and has been discussed many times. Users has to select "EU VHF" if they are in a HF contest requiring either a serial number and/or the full 6-digit locator. Trying to use a particular contest exchange may resulting in a window at the other station "Do you want to change to xxx mode". As WSJT in this situation can display a window, WSJT might just as well just change to that mode and send the needed exchange. I suggest the labeling on the Settings page regarding contest "modes" is split into several saying: "I need an exchange with serial number" "I need an exchange with your 6-digit locator" "I need an exchange for NA fieldday" When a station calls CQ with some of these options set, WSJT in FT4/8, MSK144 or Q65 of the answering station should automatically transmit the requested exchange without flashing a confusing window about a particular contest mode. The logic should be that you request the exchange you need and you get it without intervention from the other station. This should keep all happy and one only transmits the exchanges needed by the other station. Btw FT4/8 is not well suited for VHF, as everyone is QRM'ing each other on the same frequency. FT8 does not even play well with aurora, but few knows what they at not decoding. Q65 is developed for VHF and up and MAP65 can find all Q65 signal within about 200 kHz enabling all stations to spread out and use more of the band (use it or loose it). Perhaps Q65 will work well on HF too? To be widely accepted for more than EME Q65 should be enhanced with 7.5 and perhaps even 3.75 sec sequencing. In many cases speed beats sensitivity and Averaging helps increasing sensitivity to some extend by adding several short periods together. Most WSJT QSO's are done many dB above the minimum sensitivity. Also Q65 should by default use a setting (sequence and A-E) suited for the band in use. In case someone wants to try other than the default settings they could be changed in Advanced settings. 73, Palle, OZ1RH. ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] New subscriber :)
Hi, Joe, thanks for your answer! It is always great to get a respons from the authorities on a list when you make your voice heard for the first time! I started writing something like Jari wrote below, but got interrupted. :( But, his opinion is mine opinion as well. I use it myself on 6m, 2m and 70cm. The NAC is run every month so this means that I am using the EU VHF mode at least three times a month. Then there are a few other contests that use the same scheme. A minor comment is that the normal NAC:s doesn't use the serial number, but a some of the other contests do. So, my opinion and probably / hopefully many others as well is that a "fix" for the different mode so that they operate better together with each other should be of great help. From the other list it is clear that the fix shouldn't be called a fix for contest modes but rather a fix to get all the FT4/FT8 etc mode to operate better together. Because this is really what I am talking about. Basically the mode page should only be used to decide what "style" you will use for initiating a QSO. Then when you answer someone the WSJT-X must answer using de right messages based on what you receive. I did study the state diagram in the excellent QEX article on FT4 / FT8, which I BTW can't find any longer since the code was mode to Sourceforge. From what I see it will work for EU VHF mode. I haven't study it for the other special modes. As always I first need to make sure I have the right development tools here. I have actually not yet compiled WSJT-X locally. I am on Linux only here so it should not be a problem. (I did add a few minor fixes to CQRLOG in order to get the, guess what :), the EDI export work better.) 73 de /Thomas, SM0KBD Den 2023-06-14 kl. 17:11, skrev Jari A via wsjt-devel: Hi Joe, Hi others, When contest modes were taken in use, WSJT-X ( and clones ) got quite fast attention and adaptation for Nordic Activity Contests ( NAC ). I been contesting in 10m, 6m, 2m and 70cm contests on FT8 mode for years now. There is also traffic on 4m FT8, also 23cm and higher. Mode is EU VHF Contest from 10m band. Countries participating to NAC, are numerous: Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Faroe island, Estonia, then Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Germany, Italy, other European countries what is not mentioned. There are several contests in every month over the year. NAC in different bands happen every month. Been several years since I message to Joe about contesting and one follow up as it got so popular in Nordic countries. I seen EU VHF Contest excellent thing. CW and SSB operators may disagree... Regards, : Jari / oh2fqv On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 5:34 PM Joe Taylor via wsjt-devel wrote: Hi Thomas, Thanks for your message. This list is indeed the best place for suggestions of the sort you have made. Since the first days of WSJT-X we have had great difficulty getting any feedback about EU VHF Contest mode, or even reports of its widespread use. Exchanging 6-character locators with 77-bit messages requires a number of compromised changes to the usual message sequences in QSOs using the FT4, FT8, MSK144, and Q65 modes. If you have specific suggestions for code changes, and if you believe the usage of EU VHF Contest mode would be significant, we would be happy to listen. -- 73, Joe, K1JT On 6/14/2023 5:58 AM, Thomas Nilsson, SM0KBD via wsjt-devel wrote: > Hi, > > my name is Thomas, SM0KBD. I am a sort of a SW interested ham. > > I have no idea how you use this list, I mean if it is only for > merge-proposals and bug reports and all other administrative task for > WSJT-X or if it is also for discussing improvement proposals? > > Yesterday I wrote about a proposal for changing the auto-sequencer state > machine for FT4/FT8/... on the normal WSJT-X list. But then I realised > that maybe this is the place / list for such a thing? > > BTW: I am well aware of that if you propose something you are expected > to do a bit of the work! :) > > 73 de > > /Thomas, SM0KBD > ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel -- Thomas Nilsson, SM0KBD sm0...@thuben.com https://www.thuben.com/sm0kbd ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] New subscriber :)
Hi Joe, Hi others, When contest modes were taken in use, WSJT-X ( and clones ) got quite fast attention and adaptation for Nordic Activity Contests ( NAC ). I been contesting in 10m, 6m, 2m and 70cm contests on FT8 mode for years now. There is also traffic on 4m FT8, also 23cm and higher. Mode is EU VHF Contest from 10m band. Countries participating to NAC, are numerous: Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Faroe island, Estonia, then Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Germany, Italy, other European countries what is not mentioned. There are several contests in every month over the year. NAC in different bands happen every month. Been several years since I message to Joe about contesting and one follow up as it got so popular in Nordic countries. I seen EU VHF Contest excellent thing. CW and SSB operators may disagree... Regards, : Jari / oh2fqv On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 5:34 PM Joe Taylor via wsjt-devel < wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > Thanks for your message. This list is indeed the best place for > suggestions of the sort you have made. > > Since the first days of WSJT-X we have had great difficulty getting any > feedback about EU VHF Contest mode, or even reports of its widespread > use. Exchanging 6-character locators with 77-bit messages requires a > number of compromised changes to the usual message sequences in QSOs > using the FT4, FT8, MSK144, and Q65 modes. If you have specific > suggestions for code changes, and if you believe the usage of EU VHF > Contest mode would be significant, we would be happy to listen. > > -- 73, Joe, K1JT > > On 6/14/2023 5:58 AM, Thomas Nilsson, SM0KBD via wsjt-devel wrote: > > Hi, > > > > my name is Thomas, SM0KBD. I am a sort of a SW interested ham. > > > > I have no idea how you use this list, I mean if it is only for > > merge-proposals and bug reports and all other administrative task for > > WSJT-X or if it is also for discussing improvement proposals? > > > > Yesterday I wrote about a proposal for changing the auto-sequencer state > > machine for FT4/FT8/... on the normal WSJT-X list. But then I realised > > that maybe this is the place / list for such a thing? > > > > BTW: I am well aware of that if you propose something you are expected > > to do a bit of the work! :) > > > > 73 de > > > > /Thomas, SM0KBD > > > > > ___ > wsjt-devel mailing list > wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel > ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] New subscriber :)
Hi Thomas, Thanks for your message. This list is indeed the best place for suggestions of the sort you have made. Since the first days of WSJT-X we have had great difficulty getting any feedback about EU VHF Contest mode, or even reports of its widespread use. Exchanging 6-character locators with 77-bit messages requires a number of compromised changes to the usual message sequences in QSOs using the FT4, FT8, MSK144, and Q65 modes. If you have specific suggestions for code changes, and if you believe the usage of EU VHF Contest mode would be significant, we would be happy to listen. -- 73, Joe, K1JT On 6/14/2023 5:58 AM, Thomas Nilsson, SM0KBD via wsjt-devel wrote: Hi, my name is Thomas, SM0KBD. I am a sort of a SW interested ham. I have no idea how you use this list, I mean if it is only for merge-proposals and bug reports and all other administrative task for WSJT-X or if it is also for discussing improvement proposals? Yesterday I wrote about a proposal for changing the auto-sequencer state machine for FT4/FT8/... on the normal WSJT-X list. But then I realised that maybe this is the place / list for such a thing? BTW: I am well aware of that if you propose something you are expected to do a bit of the work! :) 73 de /Thomas, SM0KBD ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
[wsjt-devel] New subscriber :)
Hi, my name is Thomas, SM0KBD. I am a sort of a SW interested ham. I have no idea how you use this list, I mean if it is only for merge-proposals and bug reports and all other administrative task for WSJT-X or if it is also for discussing improvement proposals? Yesterday I wrote about a proposal for changing the auto-sequencer state machine for FT4/FT8/... on the normal WSJT-X list. But then I realised that maybe this is the place / list for such a thing? BTW: I am well aware of that if you propose something you are expected to do a bit of the work! :) 73 de /Thomas, SM0KBD -- Thomas Nilsson, SM0KBD sm0...@thuben.com https://www.thuben.com/sm0kbd ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
