Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

2018-04-02 Thread Wolfgang 
Title: Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode


Mike, 

a perfect idea! Just got a 'support call' - he can not TX, he wants to call CQ(???). 

The guy activated 'Hound', because he wanted to be ready, if any DXPedition 
shows up!  

The Fox & Hound boxes should be disabled on the std. frequency table entries.  
We have to expect all the time the 'GDU' (Greatest Dumb User) ;-) 

73 de Wolfgang 
OE1MWW 

Saturday, March 31, 2018, 3:59:16 PM, you wrote: 





I think all we need to do is discourage use by the casual user. 

I proposed this idea earlier but never heard any feedback. 

#1 Add a Dxpedition flag to the frequency list (defaults to off). 
#2 If the Dxpedition flag is false then the Fox/Hound boxes are disabled (or even hidden).  If you aren't running a Dxpedition or don't know how to enable it you really don't need to see these boxes. 

One has to set up a Dxpedition frequency anyways so the flag would be in-your-face when you add their frequency. 

The only questions you may hear are for those that don't look at the help file and want to know why the Fox/Hound is disabled or missing.  A much better situation then having them doing what they shouldn't do. 

I don't see where this is too onerous but would probably go a long way to prevent mistaken ops. 

de Mike W9MDB 






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Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

2018-03-31 Thread Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
I think all we need to do is discourage use by the casual user.
I proposed this idea earlier but never heard any feedback.
#1 Add a Dxpedition flag to the frequency list (defaults to off).#2 If the 
Dxpedition flag is false then the Fox/Hound boxes are disabled (or even 
hidden).  If you aren't running a Dxpedition or don't know how to enable it you 
really don't need to see these boxes.

One has to set up a Dxpedition frequency anyways so the flag would be 
in-your-face when you add their frequency.
The only questions you may hear are for those that don't look at the help file 
and want to know why the Fox/Hound is disabled or missing.  A much better 
situation then having them doing what they shouldn't do.
I don't see where this is too onerous but would probably go a long way to 
prevent mistaken ops.
de Mike W9MDB
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

2018-03-31 Thread David Fisher 
It has been said that the current dust-up over the use of the DXP mode is the 
result, in part, of use of the program before its official release.  How is 
making the release of the feature official going to change anything?  If making 
the release official is a matter of tidying up a few last minute bugs, making 
some last minute decisions about recommended frequencies, then we can expect 
the same troubles when the official release is made.  DXP leaders may make poor 
choices for FT8 DXP mode and cause QRM.



It seems to me that the FT8 DXPedition mode QRM problem is equivalent to a 
DXPedition opening QSOs in sideband mode on a regional net frequency.  There’s 
no way you will stop the eager DXers from tromping on the net frequency, so the 
solution has to start with the DXPedition leaders.



The program is being misused.  Short of retracting the feature, how do we 
police its use?  What is the plan?



Dave  / NX6D








From: Neil Zampella <ne...@techie.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 1:45:47 PM
To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

The problem is Serge, that they picked frequencies that are normally in
use by other modes, thus causing more problems then Fox & Hounds solves,
as they did not consider the consequences of those actions.

Neil, KN3ILZ


On 3/29/2018 3:45 PM, F6BHK wrote:
> And about the expedition using DXp without the authorization of the
> development team (and who did not read the readme file either):
>
> I find, for one, that they are doing a very good job. They found how
> to publicize their expedition (freq and time),
>
> and, with the number of bugs in the app, they manage to give a
> significant number of ham reports.
>
> look to me people you should ask how they did it! Just in case you are
> walking down an improvement process.
>
> Cheers
>
> Serge
>
>
>
> On 29/03/2018 21:15, Joe Taylor wrote:
>> Everyone paying attention should already know what's contained in
>> this message -- but it's clear that some do not.
>>
>> The current General Availability (GA) release of WSJT-X is v1.8.0.
>> That program version does not include FT8 DXpedition Mode.
>>
>> We have made beta-level "release candidates" available for the
>> explicit purpose of testing FT8 DXpedition Mode.  The release
>> candidates have included cautionary warnings to the effect that in
>> its present form, DXpedition Mode should be used only for controlled
>> testing.
>>
>> A few operators or groups have ignored our warnings and tried to use
>> FT8 DXpedition Mode in true pileup situations.  The consequences are
>> predictably bad -- especially when the offending operator(s) have
>> chosen their frequencies badly and other operators are using a mix of
>> program versions including v1.8.0, v1.9.0-rc2, v1.9.0-rc3, some
>> version of JTDX.
>>
>> FT8 DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for “production” use. Until
>> WSJT-X v1.9.0 is fully released -- not a beta-level "release
>> candidate", but a full General Availability release -- DXpedition
>> Mode should be used only in controlled test situations.
>>
>> The next public test of FT8 DXpedition Mode conducted by the WSJT
>> Development Group will be conducted on April 7, a little over a week
>> from now.  You are cordially invited to join us for this test.  See
>> the announcement posted here yesterday (Subject: WSJT-X v1.9.0-rc3:
>> Testing of FT8 DXpedition Mode) for details.
>>
>> -- 73, Joe, K1JT
>>
>> --
>>
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

2018-03-30 Thread Bill Somerville 

On 30/03/2018 12:34, Bill Somerville wrote:
The only one that is even closely related is a fox of a defect that 
stopped the "Tune" button working for Hounds when the "DX Call" entry 
is blank, the work-around is obvious.


I have no idea how that sentence came about, I meant to type:

The only one that is even closely related is a defect that stopped the 
"Tune" button working for Hounds when the "DX Call" entry is blank, the 
work-around is obvious.


73
Bill
G4WJS.


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

2018-03-30 Thread Bill Somerville 

On 30/03/2018 08:04, Saku wrote:

Hi !

Do we get 1.9.0-rc4 for the next test, or should latest r to be 
compiled from source and used (if possible)?


Question is because lot of rc3 bugs are known and perhaps we should 
step forward to see the effect of fixes and find new (lately 
added!!??) bugs.


--
Saku
OH1KH


Hi Saku,

there are no changes in the WSJT-X development branch since the v1.9.0 
RC3 beta release that impact the upcoming public test of DXpedition 
mode. The only one that is even closely related is a fox of a defect 
that stopped the "Tune" button working for Hounds when the "DX Call" 
entry is blank, the work-around is obvious.


73
Bill
G4WJS.


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

2018-03-30 Thread Saku 

Hi !

Do we get 1.9.0-rc4 for the next test, or should latest r to be 
compiled from source and used (if possible)?


Question is because lot of rc3 bugs are known and perhaps we should step 
forward to see the effect of fixes and find new (lately added!!??) bugs.


--
Saku
OH1KH

Joe Taylor kirjoitti 29.03.2018 klo 22:15:


The next public test of FT8 DXpedition Mode conducted by the WSJT 
Development Group will be conducted on April 7, a little over a week 
from now.  You are cordially invited to join us for this test.  See 
the announcement posted here yesterday (Subject: WSJT-X v1.9.0-rc3: 
Testing of FT8 DXpedition Mode) for details.


-- 73, Joe, K1JT



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Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

2018-03-29 Thread Tom Ramberg via wsjt-devel 
Due to unforeseen circumstances I cannot take part in the tests April 7. To the 
development team: Sometimes you get an offer you cannot refuse. I think this is 
one of those times and I hope you will give Grant’s offer serious 
consideration. 

Tom OH6VDA / JW6VDA

> 30. mar. 2018 kl. 00:20 skrev Grant Willis :
> 
> Joe,
> 
> I am new to this list (having only realised it was open for me to subscribe 
> to this week). I was also one of those pesky DXPedition stations who wanted 
> to (and originally had intended to) use Expedition mode pre-GA when I reach 
> Vanuatu on the 16th of April. 
> 
> I've now, out of respect of your now very clearly stated wishes this morning, 
> made the decision that there will be no use of expedition mode from YJ0AG 
> unless there is a GA release (which isn’t expected before the close of the 
> expedition).. (see http://vk5gr-iota.net).
> 
> Having said that, if the testing team were willing to allow me to join in the 
> testing effort, I would be more than willing to run it as part of an extended 
> test from Vanuatu (only if you agreed). I would only, however, offer to do 
> this if it could be structured in such a way as to be beneficial to the team 
> here. 
> 
> I see this as a real world opportunity to evaluate just how it will react 
> over a wide variety of bands, propagation types and times of day. This 
> suggestion is made with the knowledge that the user community will not behave 
> and will use the wrong version of software, not set the right mode, not set 
> their CAT controls etc etc. I feel that those inputs are in fact valid 
> considerations for any Beta test. The earlier versions of the software are 
> out there now and in a real world situation you will not be able to avoid 
> those operator errors. Consider it destructive testing. Surely it would be 
> worthwhile to consider all the bad things it does as well as the good in 
> finalising the design?
> 
> Of course, I would take all measures necessary to collect whatever logging 
> and evidence your team requires in support of the testing. Ideally, (internet 
> connectivity permitting) my intention would be to send you those logs whilst 
> I am still on Vanuatu.
> 
> Please give my request to participate in the project some consideration. I am 
> not a coder, but my observation and testing skills hopefully could make a 
> worthwhile contribution if the team was willing to include me.
> 
> Regards,
> Grant VK5GR / E6AG / YJ0AG - IOTA DXPeditioner
> 
> P.S. I realise I am unknown to this team. I offer the following  to perhaps 
> set the tone for my request more properly: 
> 
> * I have worked professionally in the cellular telecoms engineering arena for 
> over 25 years and more recently systems architecture areas. I have in that 
> time been involved in complex software development processes (albeit not down 
> at coding level) in particularly around high level requirements and test plan 
> design and execution.
> 
> * I have been active in digital modes within the hobby for over 30 years 
> having operated AX.25 networks, RTTY and PSK extensively as well as JT65, 
> FT8, JT9 and others.
> 
> * I have backgrounds in IARU (I was the VK liaison for a number of years) and 
> HF/VHF/UHF Band Planning through my previous engagements on the technical 
> advisory board of the WIA. Though this work perhaps I could also offer some 
> commentary and feedback on frequency selection. You will note from my blog I 
> have elected to use alternate frequencies that differ from your proposals. I 
> am happy to discuss my choices and justifications down the track.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Taylor [mailto:j...@princeton.edu] 
> Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 5:46 AM
> To: WSJT software development
> Subject: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode
> 
> Everyone paying attention should already know what's contained in this 
> message -- but it's clear that some do not.
> 
> The current General Availability (GA) release of WSJT-X is v1.8.0.  That 
> program version does not include FT8 DXpedition Mode.
> 
> We have made beta-level "release candidates" available for the explicit 
> purpose of testing FT8 DXpedition Mode.  The release candidates have included 
> cautionary warnings to the effect that in its present form, DXpedition Mode 
> should be used only for controlled testing.
> 
> A few operators or groups have ignored our warnings and tried to use FT8 
> DXpedition Mode in true pileup situations.  The consequences are predictably 
> bad -- especially when the offending operator(s) have chosen their 
> frequencies badly and other operators are using a mix of program versions 
> including v1.8.0, v1.9.0-rc2, v1.9.0-rc3, some version of JTDX.
> 
> FT8 DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for “production” use. Until WSJT-X
> v1.9.0 is fully released -- not a beta-level "release candidate", but a full 
> General Availability release -- DXpedition Mode should be used only in

Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

2018-03-29 Thread Grant Willis 
Joe,

I am new to this list (having only realised it was open for me to subscribe to 
this week). I was also one of those pesky DXPedition stations who wanted to 
(and originally had intended to) use Expedition mode pre-GA when I reach 
Vanuatu on the 16th of April. 

I've now, out of respect of your now very clearly stated wishes this morning, 
made the decision that there will be no use of expedition mode from YJ0AG 
unless there is a GA release (which isn’t expected before the close of the 
expedition).. (see http://vk5gr-iota.net).

Having said that, if the testing team were willing to allow me to join in the 
testing effort, I would be more than willing to run it as part of an extended 
test from Vanuatu (only if you agreed). I would only, however, offer to do this 
if it could be structured in such a way as to be beneficial to the team here. 

I see this as a real world opportunity to evaluate just how it will react over 
a wide variety of bands, propagation types and times of day. This suggestion is 
made with the knowledge that the user community will not behave and will use 
the wrong version of software, not set the right mode, not set their CAT 
controls etc etc. I feel that those inputs are in fact valid considerations for 
any Beta test. The earlier versions of the software are out there now and in a 
real world situation you will not be able to avoid those operator errors. 
Consider it destructive testing. Surely it would be worthwhile to consider all 
the bad things it does as well as the good in finalising the design?

Of course, I would take all measures necessary to collect whatever logging and 
evidence your team requires in support of the testing. Ideally, (internet 
connectivity permitting) my intention would be to send you those logs whilst I 
am still on Vanuatu.

Please give my request to participate in the project some consideration. I am 
not a coder, but my observation and testing skills hopefully could make a 
worthwhile contribution if the team was willing to include me.

Regards,
Grant VK5GR / E6AG / YJ0AG - IOTA DXPeditioner

P.S. I realise I am unknown to this team. I offer the following  to perhaps set 
the tone for my request more properly: 

* I have worked professionally in the cellular telecoms engineering arena for 
over 25 years and more recently systems architecture areas. I have in that time 
been involved in complex software development processes (albeit not down at 
coding level) in particularly around high level requirements and test plan 
design and execution.

* I have been active in digital modes within the hobby for over 30 years having 
operated AX.25 networks, RTTY and PSK extensively as well as JT65, FT8, JT9 and 
others.

* I have backgrounds in IARU (I was the VK liaison for a number of years) and 
HF/VHF/UHF Band Planning through my previous engagements on the technical 
advisory board of the WIA. Though this work perhaps I could also offer some 
commentary and feedback on frequency selection. You will note from my blog I 
have elected to use alternate frequencies that differ from your proposals. I am 
happy to discuss my choices and justifications down the track.




-Original Message-
From: Joe Taylor [mailto:j...@princeton.edu] 
Sent: Friday, 30 March 2018 5:46 AM
To: WSJT software development
Subject: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

Everyone paying attention should already know what's contained in this message 
-- but it's clear that some do not.

The current General Availability (GA) release of WSJT-X is v1.8.0.  That 
program version does not include FT8 DXpedition Mode.

We have made beta-level "release candidates" available for the explicit purpose 
of testing FT8 DXpedition Mode.  The release candidates have included 
cautionary warnings to the effect that in its present form, DXpedition Mode 
should be used only for controlled testing.

A few operators or groups have ignored our warnings and tried to use FT8 
DXpedition Mode in true pileup situations.  The consequences are predictably 
bad -- especially when the offending operator(s) have chosen their frequencies 
badly and other operators are using a mix of program versions including v1.8.0, 
v1.9.0-rc2, v1.9.0-rc3, some version of JTDX.

FT8 DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for “production” use. Until WSJT-X
v1.9.0 is fully released -- not a beta-level "release candidate", but a full 
General Availability release -- DXpedition Mode should be used only in 
controlled test situations.

The next public test of FT8 DXpedition Mode conducted by the WSJT Development 
Group will be conducted on April 7, a little over a week from now.  You are 
cordially invited to join us for this test.  See the announcement posted here 
yesterday (Subject: WSJT-X v1.9.0-rc3: Testing of FT8 DXpedition Mode) for 
details.

-- 73, Joe, K1JT

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

2018-03-29 Thread Neil Zampella 
The problem is Serge, that they picked frequencies that are normally in 
use by other modes, thus causing more problems then Fox & Hounds solves, 
as they did not consider the consequences of those actions.


Neil, KN3ILZ


On 3/29/2018 3:45 PM, F6BHK wrote:
And about the expedition using DXp without the authorization of the 
development team (and who did not read the readme file either):


I find, for one, that they are doing a very good job. They found how 
to publicize their expedition (freq and time),


and, with the number of bugs in the app, they manage to give a 
significant number of ham reports.


look to me people you should ask how they did it! Just in case you are 
walking down an improvement process.


Cheers

Serge



On 29/03/2018 21:15, Joe Taylor wrote:
Everyone paying attention should already know what's contained in 
this message -- but it's clear that some do not.


The current General Availability (GA) release of WSJT-X is v1.8.0.  
That program version does not include FT8 DXpedition Mode.


We have made beta-level "release candidates" available for the 
explicit purpose of testing FT8 DXpedition Mode.  The release 
candidates have included cautionary warnings to the effect that in 
its present form, DXpedition Mode should be used only for controlled 
testing.


A few operators or groups have ignored our warnings and tried to use 
FT8 DXpedition Mode in true pileup situations.  The consequences are 
predictably bad -- especially when the offending operator(s) have 
chosen their frequencies badly and other operators are using a mix of 
program versions including v1.8.0, v1.9.0-rc2, v1.9.0-rc3, some 
version of JTDX.


FT8 DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for “production” use. Until 
WSJT-X v1.9.0 is fully released -- not a beta-level "release 
candidate", but a full General Availability release -- DXpedition 
Mode should be used only in controlled test situations.


The next public test of FT8 DXpedition Mode conducted by the WSJT 
Development Group will be conducted on April 7, a little over a week 
from now.  You are cordially invited to join us for this test.  See 
the announcement posted here yesterday (Subject: WSJT-X v1.9.0-rc3: 
Testing of FT8 DXpedition Mode) for details.


    -- 73, Joe, K1JT

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

2018-03-29 Thread F6BHK 
We are all experimenters. Give us a tool that is new and we will use it 
and shake it until it exhauts.


You know we would use the DXp  side of WSJT-X as soon as you released 
it. Because it's new, because it's shining, because it's what we 
expected, because we don't know what to expect but we are curious.


Comme on: you release the monster... now you know that we will not 
listen to reason: it is your responsibility to limit the effect of the 
beast, for your developers' team has got the means to do it.


Now, I shall be on the aire on April 7th to shake the ether.

See ya

Serge



On 29/03/2018 21:15, Joe Taylor wrote:
Everyone paying attention should already know what's contained in this 
message -- but it's clear that some do not.


The current General Availability (GA) release of WSJT-X is v1.8.0.  
That program version does not include FT8 DXpedition Mode.


We have made beta-level "release candidates" available for the 
explicit purpose of testing FT8 DXpedition Mode.  The release 
candidates have included cautionary warnings to the effect that in its 
present form, DXpedition Mode should be used only for controlled testing.


A few operators or groups have ignored our warnings and tried to use 
FT8 DXpedition Mode in true pileup situations.  The consequences are 
predictably bad -- especially when the offending operator(s) have 
chosen their frequencies badly and other operators are using a mix of 
program versions including v1.8.0, v1.9.0-rc2, v1.9.0-rc3, some 
version of JTDX.


FT8 DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for “production” use. Until 
WSJT-X v1.9.0 is fully released -- not a beta-level "release 
candidate", but a full General Availability release -- DXpedition Mode 
should be used only in controlled test situations.


The next public test of FT8 DXpedition Mode conducted by the WSJT 
Development Group will be conducted on April 7, a little over a week 
from now.  You are cordially invited to join us for this test.  See 
the announcement posted here yesterday (Subject: WSJT-X v1.9.0-rc3: 
Testing of FT8 DXpedition Mode) for details.


-- 73, Joe, K1JT

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73, de Serge
F6BHK, ex-VR2LL, G5BHT, FM5GC
PUY SAINT MARTIN, 26 DROME, FRANCE
JN24LP


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Premature use of FT8 DXpedition Mode

2018-03-29 Thread F6BHK 
And about the expedition using DXp without the authorization of the 
development team (and who did not read the readme file either):


I find, for one, that they are doing a very good job. They found how to 
publicize their expedition (freq and time),


and, with the number of bugs in the app, they manage to give a 
significant number of ham reports.


look to me people you should ask how they did it! Just in case you are 
walking down an improvement process.


Cheers

Serge



On 29/03/2018 21:15, Joe Taylor wrote:
Everyone paying attention should already know what's contained in this 
message -- but it's clear that some do not.


The current General Availability (GA) release of WSJT-X is v1.8.0.  
That program version does not include FT8 DXpedition Mode.


We have made beta-level "release candidates" available for the 
explicit purpose of testing FT8 DXpedition Mode.  The release 
candidates have included cautionary warnings to the effect that in its 
present form, DXpedition Mode should be used only for controlled testing.


A few operators or groups have ignored our warnings and tried to use 
FT8 DXpedition Mode in true pileup situations.  The consequences are 
predictably bad -- especially when the offending operator(s) have 
chosen their frequencies badly and other operators are using a mix of 
program versions including v1.8.0, v1.9.0-rc2, v1.9.0-rc3, some 
version of JTDX.


FT8 DXpedition Mode is not yet ready for “production” use. Until 
WSJT-X v1.9.0 is fully released -- not a beta-level "release 
candidate", but a full General Availability release -- DXpedition Mode 
should be used only in controlled test situations.


The next public test of FT8 DXpedition Mode conducted by the WSJT 
Development Group will be conducted on April 7, a little over a week 
from now.  You are cordially invited to join us for this test.  See 
the announcement posted here yesterday (Subject: WSJT-X v1.9.0-rc3: 
Testing of FT8 DXpedition Mode) for details.


-- 73, Joe, K1JT

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--

73, de Serge
F6BHK, ex-VR2LL, G5BHT, FM5GC
PUY SAINT MARTIN, 26 DROME, FRANCE
JN24LP


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