Re: OpenGL and XQuartz
On 8/19/23 21:37, René J.V. Bertin via X11-users wrote: On Saturday August 19 2023 11:02:27 David Ledger wrote: I think that "dead on every platform" is a bit premature. I'd hope so, but if even a Debian clone like Devuan Chimaera now uses a Wayland-based login manager one starts wondering. The new alternative has to work well on all platforms before the old is dead on all platforms. The old will remain alive on platforms where the new doesn't work but the old does. Sounds like X is on its way out though. Air. Is Wayland available on Mac? What would be really useful would be I only know someone got it to build but I still haven't tried it. Thing is that the underlying libraries were clearly developed for Linux, using Linux-specific syscalls which AFAIK don't exist on *BSD nor on Mac. Of course Wayland is a very different beast that (to me) looks much more akin to the Mac's approach with window server (or whatever it's called again) rather than an X11 server + window manager. That probably also means that even if you could, say, build QtWayland and ultimately KWin/Wayland (which is the compositor used for the KDE desktop) you couldn't just run that because it would try to take over the entire desktop. At best it'd work like XQuartz in rooted mode. I've used that approach for a long time, switching between a traditional Unix/X11 workstation and a modern desktop environment, "on opposite sides of the screen" as I called it. I don't think many people would accept that nowadays... An X-server for iPad doesn't exist, but Wayland? Haven't people succeeded in installing Linux onto iPads? Or you could get yourself a ChromeTab; those do use Wayland as their compositor/renderer, plus you can "side-load" Linux onto them ;) Wayland would have to work under iOS to be worth having. I have been using X for those 40 years but it's been a while since I used X-clients other than xterm That begs the question why you need X at all? I only use xterms currently. xterm rather than Terminal on Mac; xterm rather than Xfce on Ubuntu, so I use the same term on both. Xfce is also X of course because that's whet my Ubuntu uses. to look? Everything I've found concentrates on it being a purely localhost thing It is, unless you run xwayland, which is an equivalent of XQuartz... Is xwayland X based? We used to run Firefox (or Netscape?) on Unix servers displaying on a PC X-server. Are those sorts of things available on current VMs? On Docker? Have you realised that the big browsers today have more or less become OSes in themselves, and use hardware acceleration, OpenGL or Vulkan or whatever other fast rendering & compositing protocol the host offers? And on their side, sites have developed into desktop-like designs making heavy use of those accelerated rendering options. I haven't tried to run either on a remote screen for a long time, and the times I tried simpler QtWebengine or WebKitGTk browsers remotely that wasn't exactly a success. I have noticed that they are getting bigger and bigger. I tend to visit sites that don't need fancy stuff so I don't really know what they can do these days. I shop for DIY stuff, household stuff, computer stuff and sometimes food, but mainly look for textual information. Running a browser on Docker would make it safer to visit 'dangerous' sites because only the throw away Docker VM would be corrupted. I used to use a browser run on a headless server to download things to it because it was so difficult to get the same thing from the PC to the server. Actually, Jeremy once pointed out that a proper Wayland implementation on Mac could be the solution for the issues that exist with the X server (i.e. we'd be using xwayland) ;) R. Thanks for the insights. , David ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. X11-users mailing list (X11-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/x11-users/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: OpenGL and XQuartz
On 8/19/23 08:56, Christopher Stacy via X11-users wrote: I think the Linux community has decided to abandon the X Window System entirely. It's dead on every platform. So, yes, you are doomed. Command-line stuff is just done directly with ssh (not involving xterm). Remote access to graphical applications is all done by screen copying (blitting) using clever algorithms and the essentially infinite bandwidth that's universally available. Like VNC only better. The days of transmitting drawing commands to a remote window server are over. That was a good solution four decades ago, when the long-haul backbone networks were operating at 56 Kb/s. Today, things are thousands of times faster. Better to just efficiently transmit the picture, especially if you can take advantage of lower-level GPU functionality. All hail Wayland. X11 is obsolete. Please update your programs. I think that "dead on every platform" is a bit premature. Although this is an Apple list my primary laptop is a Dell running Ubuntu 20, which reverted from Wayland to X. It's not the latest, but still supported, and not that old. I also have a 27" iMac, a mini and a small MacBook Air. Is Wayland available on Mac? What would be really useful would be the ability to run a Mac application on a Mac (of course) but with the display on an iPad. An X-server for iPad doesn't exist, but Wayland? I have been using X for those 40 years but it's been a while since I used X-clients other than xterm, but I've been using ssh entirely for some years. I suppose there must now be better replacements for 'Putty' on Windows. My clients always gave me Windows boxes with X-server applications to use. I obviously need some education on Wayland. Where would be a good place to look? Everything I've found concentrates on it being a purely localhost thing. We used to run Firefox (or Netscape?) on Unix servers displaying on a PC X-server. Are those sorts of things available on current VMs? On Docker? I would appreciate any brief answers or pointers, but as this is an 'X' list I don't expect a discussion. Thanks David - Computers since '69, Unix since '83, Macs since '84. (Yes, I'm retired :-) ) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. X11-users mailing list (X11-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/x11-users/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: xterm operation not permitted
On 2020-02-07 08:44, Ben Kilminster wrote: On 2020-02-05 16:10, Ben Kilminster via X11-users wrote: Hello, I'm on a Mac (Mac Catalina 10.15.2, XQuartz 2.7.11). The problem is using the xterm provided by XQuartz, I no longer have permission to look in my directories : Wed 16:59 [bjk] ls ~/Documents/ ls: : Operation not permitted I found a solution recommended online, which is : 1) System Preferences -> Security & Privacy -> Privacy -> "Full Disk Access" 2) Unlock then add "Applications/Utilities/XQuartz.app" 3) Restart everything. However, I still get the same error. The other "Terminal" program still works, so this is not fatal. But right now XQuartz is not usable for me. Suggestions ? It look like you are either not *who* you think you are or not *where* you think you are. In both of a fresh Terminal and a fresh xterm, do: $ pwd $ id $ echo $0 $ echo $SHELL $ echo ~ $ echo $HOME They should match between the Terminal and xterm environments. Whichever terminal (lower 't') you use it's the shell that does the work not the terminal. David Hello David, Unfortunately, both agree. There are plenty of other ideas though, and I will go through them all. I wonder if it's anything to do with Sandboxing. It's something I know virtually nothing about. David ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. X11-users mailing list (X11-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/x11-users/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: xterm operation not permitted
On 2020-02-05 16:10, Ben Kilminster via X11-users wrote: Hello, I'm on a Mac (Mac Catalina 10.15.2, XQuartz 2.7.11). The problem is using the xterm provided by XQuartz, I no longer have permission to look in my directories : Wed 16:59 [bjk] ls ~/Documents/ ls: : Operation not permitted I found a solution recommended online, which is : 1) System Preferences -> Security & Privacy -> Privacy -> "Full Disk Access" 2) Unlock then add "Applications/Utilities/XQuartz.app" 3) Restart everything. However, I still get the same error. The other "Terminal" program still works, so this is not fatal. But right now XQuartz is not usable for me. Suggestions ? It look like you are either not *who* you think you are or not *where* you think you are. In both of a fresh Terminal and a fresh xterm, do: $ pwd $ id $ echo $0 $ echo $SHELL $ echo ~ $ echo $HOME They should match between the Terminal and xterm environments. Whichever terminal (lower 't') you use it's the shell that does the work not the terminal. David ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. X11-users mailing list (X11-users@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/x11-users/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
