Re: Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)
Hi there, 2009/12/5 Pasi Lallinaho o...@knome.fi J. Anthony Limon wrote: Hi team, I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in the area of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend everyone's way. 1) gnome-app-install Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways? I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce desktop. Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be HORRIDLY unstable. On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect was that my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top. :) I agree you on this. I don't really know gnome-app-install since I always use apt-get or Synaptic myself. Maybe we should just seed Synaptic as the default application/repository manager in Lucid? Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and synaptic will make enough room on the CD for it. As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new app a try. Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for Lucid in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to replace synaptic in this release. 2) gnome-system-monitor I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do not, but is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the area of super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the application. On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm not sure if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's desktops but I am of the opinion that GSM has to go. For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI and many people fear command line. Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap usage, and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when you want to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool to can check in the system monitor without having to go in command line. While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs, gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users. 3) Totem Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant issue but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release being LTS. Agree. There is loads of *decent* video player alternatives. I've never liked Totem. It sounds it is from the stone-age. I'd really like to see something else already in Lucid. I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to it, but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as integrated in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to find missing codecs for the user?). Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer or vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable keyboard shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and testing Parole from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie. before alpha 1, and until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali and see what's missing from the Xubuntu point of view). 4) GDM This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they want to try making one using xfce libs. This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am missing a couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right? ;) My personal experience is that PA is only bringing in problems, but if we can get those sorted out, I can live with it. I hear PA can do wonderful things once it works. We probably want to ship Exaile as our default media player for Lucid also, but I want to finger at the really bad quality of media players in general in Karmic. Most of them do not work for me at all (read: they crash constantly or leak into memory). I was also disappointed by some last-minute performance regressions in Exaile. And the disappearance of some gstreamer codecs in the 64 bit version didn't help (yeah, now Canonical sells them for real money... there is no explanation over why they aren't packaged and free of charge anymore). Exaile 0.3.1 uses GIO, and has a few mem usage optimisations. It also contains some of the missing
Re: Xubuntu team direction
I agree with Pasi that Xubuntu may benefit from a multiple leaders board. A single leader system too often, in my opinion, gave the impression that it was Cody against the others when Cody was disagreeing on something with the rest of the team, because it's hard to know if its the project lead or the developer who disagrees. Having a more equal system would probably help avoiding such bizarre situations. This being said, I'm willing to take absolutely no responsibilities of any sort. :) I have enough work with my school, so all the free time I put into FOSS will go to Shimmer projects (which yet match quite a few projects used in Xubuntu, so I may not be competely useless :p). This should not restrict me from babbling all over IRC and the mailing list, though. I'd personally love to see Cody, Pasi, Jim and Lionel (and Vincent?) as that leaders council. You guys are the guys who get the work done, and you all have a long experience with Xubuntu. I'd also like to say that new contributors or people who want to contribute should not bother too much about the leadership thing. Everyone is welcome in Xubuntu, and if you have feedback about what you feel held or slowed you down from contributing, or about how to make you feel more welcome in our little community, feel free to tell it. -- xubuntu-devel mailing list xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
Re: Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)
Steve Dodier wrote: Hi there, 2009/12/5 Pasi Lallinaho o...@knome.fi mailto:o...@knome.fi J. Anthony Limon wrote: Hi team, I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in the area of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend everyone's way. 1) gnome-app-install Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways? I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce desktop. Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be HORRIDLY unstable. On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect was that my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top. :) I agree you on this. I don't really know gnome-app-install since I always use apt-get or Synaptic myself. Maybe we should just seed Synaptic as the default application/repository manager in Lucid? Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and synaptic will make enough room on the CD for it. As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new app a try. Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for Lucid in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to replace synaptic in this release. 2) gnome-system-monitor I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do not, but is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the area of super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the application. On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm not sure if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's desktops but I am of the opinion that GSM has to go. For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI and many people fear command line. Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap usage, and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when you want to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool to can check in the system monitor without having to go in command line. While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs, gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users. 3) Totem Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant issue but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release being LTS. Agree. There is loads of *decent* video player alternatives. I've never liked Totem. It sounds it is from the stone-age. I'd really like to see something else already in Lucid. I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to it, but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as integrated in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to find missing codecs for the user?). Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer or vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable keyboard shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and testing Parole from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie. before alpha 1, and until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali and see what's missing from the Xubuntu point of view). 4) GDM This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they want to try making one using xfce libs. This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am missing a couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right? ;) My personal experience is that PA is only bringing in problems, but if we can get those sorted out, I can live with it. I hear PA can do wonderful things once it works. We probably want to ship Exaile as our default media player for Lucid also, but I want to finger at the really bad quality of media players in general in Karmic. Most of them do not work for me
Re: Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)
Also, nobody has any intentions of adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right? ;) I've always considered that a feature :) 2009/12/5 J. Anthony Limon j...@flippo.net Hi team, I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in the area of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend everyone's way. 1) gnome-app-install Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways? I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce desktop. Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be HORRIDLY unstable. On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect was that my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top. :) 2) gnome-system-monitor I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do not, but is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the area of super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the application. On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm not sure if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's desktops but I am of the opinion that GSM has to go. 3) Totem Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant issue but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release being LTS. 4) GDM This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they want to try making one using xfce libs. This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am missing a couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right? ;) - J -- xubuntu-devel mailing list xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel -- xubuntu-devel mailing list xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
Re: Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 09:05:45 +0100 Steve Dodier sidnio...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there, 2009/12/5 Pasi Lallinaho o...@knome.fi J. Anthony Limon wrote: Hi team, I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in the area of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend everyone's way. 1) gnome-app-install Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways? I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce desktop. Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be HORRIDLY unstable. On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect was that my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top. :) I agree you on this. I don't really know gnome-app-install since I always use apt-get or Synaptic myself. Maybe we should just seed Synaptic as the default application/repository manager in Lucid? Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and synaptic will make enough room on the CD for it. As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new app a try. Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for Lucid in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to replace synaptic in this release. 2) gnome-system-monitor I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do not, but is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the area of super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the application. On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm not sure if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's desktops but I am of the opinion that GSM has to go. For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI and many people fear command line. Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap usage, and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when you want to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool to can check in the system monitor without having to go in command line. While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs, gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users. 3) Totem Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant issue but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release being LTS. Agree. There is loads of *decent* video player alternatives. I've never liked Totem. It sounds it is from the stone-age. I'd really like to see something else already in Lucid. I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to it, but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as integrated in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to find missing codecs for the user?). Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer or vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable keyboard shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and testing Parole from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie. before alpha 1, and until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali and see what's missing from the Xubuntu point of view). 4) GDM This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they want to try making one using xfce libs. This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am missing a couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right? ;) My personal experience is that PA is only bringing in problems, but if we can get those sorted out, I can live with it. I hear PA can do wonderful things once it works. We probably want to ship Exaile as our default media player for Lucid also, but I want to finger at the really bad quality of media players in general in Karmic. Most of them do not work for me at all (read: they crash constantly or leak into memory). I was also disappointed by some last-minute performance regressions in Exaile. And the disappearance of some gstreamer codecs in the 64 bit version didn't help (yeah, now Canonical sells them for real
Re: Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)
Charlie Kravetz wrote: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 09:05:45 +0100 Steve Dodier sidnio...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there, 2009/12/5 Pasi Lallinaho o...@knome.fi J. Anthony Limon wrote: Hi team, I just thought I would open the door for some brainstorming in the area of Lucid and beyond! I have some thoughts I'd like to extend everyone's way. 1) gnome-app-install Do we really need it? Who really uses it? How stable is it anyways? I feel gnome-app-install does more harm than good in the XFce desktop. Firstly it does a poor job of representing the total software in the repositories. Secondly, we almost *always* send people to Synaptic or apt-get to install software. Thirdly, I've found it to be HORRIDLY unstable. On my system I've ---purge autoremove'd it. A nice side effect was that my XFce menu looks a lot nicer without that wide entry at the top. :) I agree you on this. I don't really know gnome-app-install since I always use apt-get or Synaptic myself. Maybe we should just seed Synaptic as the default application/repository manager in Lucid? Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and synaptic will make enough room on the CD for it. As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new app a try. Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for Lucid in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to replace synaptic in this release. 2) gnome-system-monitor I know this app has some serious features that alternatives do not, but is consistently a source of problems and bugs, primarily in the area of super high CPU usage and memory leaks, ironic given the nature of the application. On my system I use a mixture of xfce4-taskmanager and htop, I'm not sure if this would be satisfactory on the majority of people's desktops but I am of the opinion that GSM has to go. For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI and many people fear command line. Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap usage, and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when you want to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool to can check in the system monitor without having to go in command line. While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs, gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users. 3) Totem Is the plan to stick with Totem for Lucid? It's kind of stagnant issue but it's also a difficult one to address with the next release being LTS. Agree. There is loads of *decent* video player alternatives. I've never liked Totem. It sounds it is from the stone-age. I'd really like to see something else already in Lucid. I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to it, but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as integrated in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to find missing codecs for the user?). Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer or vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable keyboard shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and testing Parole from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie. before alpha 1, and until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali and see what's missing from the Xubuntu point of view). 4) GDM This seems to be an issue entirely out of anyone's hands unless they want to try making one using xfce libs. This is about all I can think of right now, but I do know I am missing a couple things which I will bring up at another time. I feel this is a good start to a brainstorming. Also, nobody has any intentions of adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right? ;) My personal experience is that PA is only bringing in problems, but if we can get those sorted out, I can live with it. I hear PA can do wonderful things once it works. We probably want to ship Exaile as our default media player for Lucid also, but I want to finger at the really bad quality of media players in general in Karmic. Most of them do not work for me at all (read: they crash constantly or leak into memory). I was also disappointed by some last-minute performance regressions in Exaile. And the disappearance of some gstreamer codecs in the 64 bit version didn't
Re: Xubuntu team direction
Steve Dodier wrote: I agree with Pasi that Xubuntu may benefit from a multiple leaders board. A single leader system too often, in my opinion, gave the impression that it was Cody against the others when Cody was disagreeing on something with the rest of the team, because it's hard to know if its the project lead or the developer who disagrees. Having a more equal system would probably help avoiding such bizarre situations. This being said, I'm willing to take absolutely no responsibilities of any sort. :) I have enough work with my school, so all the free time I put into FOSS will go to Shimmer projects (which yet match quite a few projects used in Xubuntu, so I may not be competely useless :p). This should not restrict me from babbling all over IRC and the mailing list, though. As I'm the Shimmer Project leader, some of my time will go there as well. Again, we work on such things that help Xubuntu go forward as well, but somebody (Lionel :P) probably has to do more work to get the stuff into Xubuntu. I'd personally love to see Cody, Pasi, Jim and Lionel (and Vincent?) as that leaders council. You guys are the guys who get the work done, and you all have a long experience with Xubuntu. Well, referring to the current leaders table [1], I'm suggesting this board could consists 6 people rather than the 4 (5) you suggested, adding Charlie to the list. I'd really love to see his experience on the council and even see him taking a bit bigger role and shouting out a bit louder :) What comes to Joszef, I really haven't seen him active since I joined as the Marketing Lead, so I really can't recommend him to join as the seventh member. I'd also like to say that new contributors or people who want to contribute should not bother too much about the leadership thing. Everyone is welcome in Xubuntu, and if you have feedback about what you feel held or slowed you down from contributing, or about how to make you feel more welcome in our little community, feel free to tell it. Exactly. Wherever our council meetings will happen, anybody is free to join and tell their opinions as well. The whole progress should be as transparent as possible. [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Leaders -- Pasi Lallinaho Xubuntu Marketing Lead Web-designer, graphic artist IRC: knome @ freenode -- xubuntu-devel mailing list xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
Re: Xubuntu team direction
See, I knew I was going to forget someone in that list. -- xubuntu-devel mailing list xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
Re: Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)
Hi there, (I stripped some parts to reduce the size of the mail ;) On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 03:41:03PM +0200, Pasi Lallinaho wrote: Charlie Kravetz wrote: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 09:05:45 +0100 Steve Dodier sidnio...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and synaptic will make enough room on the CD for it. As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new app a try. Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for Lucid in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to replace synaptic in this release. There is enough room on the livecd anyway. I think that we *have to* switch to software-center for lucid, because gnome-app-install has already been demoted from main to universe in karmic (which means that Canonical folks don't want to support it anymore, and since they were the only ones touching it…). 2) gnome-system-monitor [snip] For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI and many people fear command line. Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap usage, and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when you want to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool to can check in the system monitor without having to go in command line. While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs, gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users. We have already xfce4-cpugraph-plugin, xfce4-systemload-plugin, xfce4-netload-plugin and xfce4-taskmanager. The fact that gnome devs decided to make a single program (gnome-system-monitor) for that doesn't imply that we should blindly do the same. (Anyway, I've no strong opinion on this, I think htop is the best one. :P) 3) Totem [snip] I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to it, but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as integrated in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to find missing codecs for the user?). Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer or vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable keyboard shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and testing Parole from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie. before alpha 1, and until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali and see what's missing from the Xubuntu point of view). The issue with mplayer, vlc, or any ffmpeg related player, is that they can't be shipped on a live cd (decision of the TB). About the missing codecs, I think any gstreamer-based player will be handled by gnome-codec-install without problem (this is the case for totem currently, so it might work fine for parole as well). [snip] I do NOT want to look for a firefox replacement and the issues it will bring into an LTS release. That belongs in the regular release, perhaps lucid +1. Lucid as an LTS needs to be as solid as we can make it. It is not the release to test what we can in, but rather, the release to fix what we can in. I have to agree with Charlie here. Changing the default browser to something not Firefox in an LTS release would really make our users mad, even if it was working. And at this time, I'm not sure if midori is even working fairly enough. Indeed, there are lots of possible changes: 1/ xfce 4.6 - 4.8 2/ brasero - xfburn 3/ totem - parole 4/ gnome-system-monitor - xfce4-taskmanager, xfce4-*-plugin 5/ gnome-app-install - software-center 6/ gnome-screensaver - xscreensaver 7/ firefox - midori As lucid is a LTS, I think we should focus on the most safe ones: 5/ and 6/. Keeping gnome-screensaver is dangerous (who knows what stupid ideas will gnome developers have for lucid? -- currently in karmic, there's no screen locking without gnome-session); I consider gnome-app-install as unmaintained upstream, so we shouldn't keep it either. Cheers, Lionel -- Lionel Le Folgoc - https://launchpad.net/~mrpouit E61E 116D 4BA1 3936 0A33 F61D 65D9 A66E 10E2 969A signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- xubuntu-devel mailing list xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
Re: Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)
Lionel Le Folgoc wrote: Hi there, (I stripped some parts to reduce the size of the mail ;) On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 03:41:03PM +0200, Pasi Lallinaho wrote: Charlie Kravetz wrote: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 09:05:45 +0100 Steve Dodier sidnio...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and synaptic will make enough room on the CD for it. As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new app a try. Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for Lucid in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to replace synaptic in this release. There is enough room on the livecd anyway. I think that we *have to* switch to software-center for lucid, because gnome-app-install has already been demoted from main to universe in karmic (which means that Canonical folks don't want to support it anymore, and since they were the only ones touching it…). 2) gnome-system-monitor [snip] For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI and many people fear command line. Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap usage, and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when you want to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool to can check in the system monitor without having to go in command line. While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs, gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users. We have already xfce4-cpugraph-plugin, xfce4-systemload-plugin, xfce4-netload-plugin and xfce4-taskmanager. The fact that gnome devs decided to make a single program (gnome-system-monitor) for that doesn't imply that we should blindly do the same. (Anyway, I've no strong opinion on this, I think htop is the best one. :P) 3) Totem [snip] I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to it, but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as integrated in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to find missing codecs for the user?). Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer or vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable keyboard shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and testing Parole from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie. before alpha 1, and until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali and see what's missing from the Xubuntu point of view). The issue with mplayer, vlc, or any ffmpeg related player, is that they can't be shipped on a live cd (decision of the TB). About the missing codecs, I think any gstreamer-based player will be handled by gnome-codec-install without problem (this is the case for totem currently, so it might work fine for parole as well). [snip] I do NOT want to look for a firefox replacement and the issues it will bring into an LTS release. That belongs in the regular release, perhaps lucid +1. Lucid as an LTS needs to be as solid as we can make it. It is not the release to test what we can in, but rather, the release to fix what we can in. I have to agree with Charlie here. Changing the default browser to something not Firefox in an LTS release would really make our users mad, even if it was working. And at this time, I'm not sure if midori is even working fairly enough. Indeed, there are lots of possible changes: 1/ xfce 4.6 - 4.8 2/ brasero - xfburn 3/ totem - parole 4/ gnome-system-monitor - xfce4-taskmanager, xfce4-*-plugin 5/ gnome-app-install - software-center 6/ gnome-screensaver - xscreensaver 7/ firefox - midori As lucid is a LTS, I think we should focus on the most safe ones: 5/ and 6/. Keeping gnome-screensaver is dangerous (who knows what stupid ideas will gnome developers have for lucid? -- currently in karmic, there's no screen locking without gnome-session); I consider gnome-app-install as unmaintained upstream, so we shouldn't keep it either. Cheers, Lionel Software Center seems OKAY, as long as it's easily removed (hehe) - but it seems to suffer from the same issues as gnome-app-install in that it only shows a small percentage of what is in the repositories. I also think it's a shame that gnome-app-install made it into Xubuntu 9.10 as it ships with a fairly major bug (no icons displayed for the categories). - J -- xubuntu-devel mailing list xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Re: Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)
2009/12/5 J. Anthony Limon j...@flippo.net Lionel Le Folgoc wrote: Hi there, (I stripped some parts to reduce the size of the mail ;) On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 03:41:03PM +0200, Pasi Lallinaho wrote: Charlie Kravetz wrote: On Sat, 5 Dec 2009 09:05:45 +0100 Steve Dodier sidnio...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] Both Synaptic and gnome-app-install are being replaced by the Software Centre (not sure if it's the exact name). This new app brings a few dependencies but it's likely that removing gnome-app-install and synaptic will make enough room on the CD for it. As long as it doesn't pull mono and gnome* I'm all for giving the new app a try. Maybe we could ask the desktop team what they think will be ready for Lucid in the software centre, and whether they think they'll be able to replace synaptic in this release. There is enough room on the livecd anyway. I think that we *have to* switch to software-center for lucid, because gnome-app-install has already been demoted from main to universe in karmic (which means that Canonical folks don't want to support it anymore, and since they were the only ones touching it…). 2) gnome-system-monitor [snip] For now, I don't think the Xfce components can deliver the same amount of features and, regretfully, quality. I also like htop, but we can't consider it as the main application for system monitoring, as it's CLI and many people fear command line. Gnome system monitor monitors system load, network load, ram and swap usage, and HDD usage. It may be doing too much for one's needs, but when you want to know if some app is using all of your bandwidth, it's cool to can check in the system monitor without having to go in command line. While xftaskmanager may be more appropriate for your needs, gnome-system-monitor is in my opinion better for end users. We have already xfce4-cpugraph-plugin, xfce4-systemload-plugin, xfce4-netload-plugin and xfce4-taskmanager. The fact that gnome devs decided to make a single program (gnome-system-monitor) for that doesn't imply that we should blindly do the same. (Anyway, I've no strong opinion on this, I think htop is the best one. :P) 3) Totem [snip] I can name only one player that also uses a decent backend and that is written with a proper GTK+ GUI. It's Parole, and I'm looking forward to it, but considering that it's rather new, we can't expect it to be as integrated in the desktop yet (for instance, does it already manage to find missing codecs for the user?). Whats the point of a player with tons of features like audacity, mplayer or vlc if it crashes miserably when you launch a file or if the GUI is difficult to use because of some particular skin, or very debatable keyboard shortcut choices? I'm all for keeping Totem for the LTS, and testing Parole from the very beginning of Lucid+1's release cycle (ie. before alpha 1, and until beta 1 at least, so we can report bugs to Ali and see what's missing from the Xubuntu point of view). The issue with mplayer, vlc, or any ffmpeg related player, is that they can't be shipped on a live cd (decision of the TB). About the missing codecs, I think any gstreamer-based player will be handled by gnome-codec-install without problem (this is the case for totem currently, so it might work fine for parole as well). [snip] I do NOT want to look for a firefox replacement and the issues it will bring into an LTS release. That belongs in the regular release, perhaps lucid +1. Lucid as an LTS needs to be as solid as we can make it. It is not the release to test what we can in, but rather, the release to fix what we can in. I have to agree with Charlie here. Changing the default browser to something not Firefox in an LTS release would really make our users mad, even if it was working. And at this time, I'm not sure if midori is even working fairly enough. Indeed, there are lots of possible changes: 1/ xfce 4.6 - 4.8 2/ brasero - xfburn 3/ totem - parole 4/ gnome-system-monitor - xfce4-taskmanager, xfce4-*-plugin 5/ gnome-app-install - software-center 6/ gnome-screensaver - xscreensaver 7/ firefox - midori As lucid is a LTS, I think we should focus on the most safe ones: 5/ and 6/. Keeping gnome-screensaver is dangerous (who knows what stupid ideas will gnome developers have for lucid? -- currently in karmic, there's no screen locking without gnome-session); I consider gnome-app-install as unmaintained upstream, so we shouldn't keep it either. Agree with you, Lionel. And this leaves lot of room for working on upstream. :) Cheers, Lionel Software Center seems OKAY, as long as it's easily removed (hehe) - but it seems to suffer from the same issues as gnome-app-install in that it only shows a small percentage of what is in the repositories. I also think it's a shame that
Re: Idea for Lucid (and beyond..)
Andrew Stormont wrote: Also, nobody has any intentions of adopting Pulse Audio into the Xubuntu system, right? ;) I've always considered that a feature :) Yeah, I have as well.. I've yet to see a situation where Pulse has helped.. I fully support keeping Pulse out of Xubuntu. - J -- xubuntu-devel mailing list xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
Re: Xubuntu team direction
Hi all, On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 7:51 AM, Pasi Lallinaho o...@knome.fi wrote: Steve Dodier wrote: I agree with Pasi that Xubuntu may benefit from a multiple leaders board. A single leader system too often, in my opinion, gave the impression that it was Cody against the others when Cody was disagreeing on something with the rest of the team, because it's hard to know if its the project lead or the developer who disagrees. Having a more equal system would probably help avoiding such bizarre situations. This being said, I'm willing to take absolutely no responsibilities of any sort. :) I have enough work with my school, so all the free time I put into FOSS will go to Shimmer projects (which yet match quite a few projects used in Xubuntu, so I may not be competely useless :p). This should not restrict me from babbling all over IRC and the mailing list, though. As I'm the Shimmer Project leader, some of my time will go there as well. Again, we work on such things that help Xubuntu go forward as well, but somebody (Lionel :P) probably has to do more work to get the stuff into Xubuntu. Yeah, this is a big concern for me. Cody has access and knowledge that few people have. Lionel already does a lot (a lot!) of work himself. What can we do to find other people who can assist in this area? I'd personally love to see Cody, Pasi, Jim and Lionel (and Vincent?) as that leaders council. You guys are the guys who get the work done, and you all have a long experience with Xubuntu. Well, referring to the current leaders table [1], I'm suggesting this board could consists 6 people rather than the 4 (5) you suggested, adding Charlie to the list. I'd really love to see his experience on the council and even see him taking a bit bigger role and shouting out a bit louder :) What comes to Joszef, I really haven't seen him active since I joined as the Marketing Lead, so I really can't recommend him to join as the seventh member. I'd also like to say that new contributors or people who want to contribute should not bother too much about the leadership thing. Everyone is welcome in Xubuntu, and if you have feedback about what you feel held or slowed you down from contributing, or about how to make you feel more welcome in our little community, feel free to tell it. I like this attitude. :) Exactly. Wherever our council meetings will happen, anybody is free to join and tell their opinions as well. The whole progress should be as transparent as possible. [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Leaders It seems like most people are open to a council-type approach in terms of governance (if that's the right word). It also seems like we would still need someone who can manage the seeds alongside Lionel, and perhaps do some development, too. I'm not sure what all is involved in what Cody has done, to be honest, but we will need to find a person or (perhaps more likely) a couple people who can contribute in a technical manner similar to how has been able to contribute. I wouldn't expect anyone to perform those kind of duties right away, but . . . eventually . . . they could grow into those kind of responsibilities. I know what I'm proposing above isn't terribly formal, but I'm on visiting the neighbouring city of Milwaukee this weekend, and wanted to provide some input on this matter for now. :) Jim -- xubuntu-devel mailing list xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
