Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Brett, I completely agree. Something did occur to me as I read your post. I think its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their journey by doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group. Exploring within as they are guided. Supposedly then, one has gained enough inner clarity so those other things are unnecessary. For myself, I began a zen learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing more clearly as time passes, that this is no longer a spiritual path for me. I embrace zazen, much of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the ethical conduct teachings. But even there, I am far more guided by the yoga limbs , than by many of the theological teachings of buddhism. I feel that there can be great value in a spiritual path, or even quest. But, I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An interchange between Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for a long time. Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their butts, and practice what they preach? Is there not a certain self-righteousness in believing that the chants of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of self-focus? While serenely watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive care whose father beat him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury. While someone is cooking their organic tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent put her feet in boiling water because the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show you the newspaper paragraph detailing how a baby died after being placed in a microwave. I have to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a foundation. But, my library of books and teacher- interviews and the rest is over. Its about plugging in--for me. As you said, its finding one's own truth. Be well. Kristy --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 9:41 PM I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them selves. I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that. I believe that is why there is so much division in religions and belief systems. I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more unity in this world. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
K Wrote: Should zennists, (or any spiritual practitioner), get off their butts, and practise what they preach? Is there not a certain self-righteousness in believing that the chants of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of self-focus?. I haven't seen many real zennist practitioners preaching so far. Though they may be sharing the fruits of their own practise or direct experience with it. There is no preaching in zen as far as I know. Perhaps you were not lucky enough to find the real practitioners. Or perhaps you rely a bit too much in Internet resources and postings from which you get this incorrect ideas about zen practitioners. The same word practitioner means that that person doesn't follows preachings but that person is putting into real direct experience whatever is talking about. However, I would agree with you that often in Internet there is more a lot of more talking zen that actually the experience of the practise talking through that talk. A tutti frutti for all tastes and from which there is also a sort of learning behind. Nothing is completely black and nothing is completely white. Mayka --- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 8:28 Brett, I completely agree. Something did occur to me as I read your post. I think its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their journey by doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group. Exploring within as they are guided. Supposedly then, one has gained enough inner clarity so those other things are unnecessary. For myself, I began a zen learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing more clearly as time passes, that this is no longer a spiritual path for me. I embrace zazen, much of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the ethical conduct teachings. But even there, I am far more guided by the yoga limbs , than by many of the theological teachings of buddhism. I feel that there can be great value in a spiritual path, or even quest. But, I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An interchange between Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for a long time. Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their butts, and practice what they preach? Is there not a certain self-righteousness in believing that the chants of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of self-focus? While serenely watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive care whose father beat him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury. While someone is cooking their organic tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent put her feet in boiling water because the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show you the newspaper paragraph detailing how a baby died after being placed in a microwave. I have to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a foundation. But, my library of books and teacher- interviews and the rest is over. Its about plugging in--for me. As you said, its finding one's own truth. Be well. Kristy --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 9:41 PM I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them selves. I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that. I believe that is why there is so much division in religions and belief systems. I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more unity in this world. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
[Zen] Re: Meditation Problem
Bill, o zen = 'direct experience of reality' o To realize direct experience of reality, one practices shikantaza o With this practice, and without heeding any other of the Buddha's teachings, one can eventually realize one's True Nature (or Buddha Nature) o Zen (or Zen Buddhism) = zen + Buddhism o In the US or in East Asia, over the past century there has never existed a 'zen' center. Please correct any of the above statements, if deemed necessary. Thanks, --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: ED, What we now call zen (direct experience of reality) exsisted before Buddha and therefore before Buddhism. There are also examples of zen in cultures far removed from India. I see Zen Buddhism as a Buddhist expression of zen. I practice a Bill! expression of zen. What's in your wallet? ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
What is truth asked jesting Pilate and he did not wait for an answer. --Sir Francis Bacon John chapter 18, verse 38 of the Gospel of John, is often referred to as jesting Pilate or Truth? What is truth?, of Latin: Quid est veritas?. In it, Pontius Pilate questions Jesus' claim that he is witness to the truth (John 18:37). He then proclaims to the masses (lit., the Jews referring to the Jewish authorities) that he does not consider Jesus guilty of any crime. (Wiki) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@... wrote: For me, I believe the truth is inside us all.
Re: [Zen] Mindfulness meditation training changes brain structure in 8 weeks
Hi Anil, There will be many people in our school be interested in getting a copy of your book. When do you plan to publish it? We also have publishing house in Taiwan, if you are interested to publish it in Chinese. Additionally, we have many professors in similar field, who could help, if you need. We have meditation clubs in 52 universities and college in Taiwan. Thank you. JMJM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/24/2011 7:05 AM, Anil Sahal wrote: I first became interested in meditation and brain whilst attending the 'Neuroscience' conference in San Fransisco as few years ago in which the Dalai Lama was the key note speaker and offered us, with a big grin, the use of several of his monks for research purposes! One of the things I note about the field now, is that there seems to be very few studies in which direct comparisons can be made between schools of meditation. So I got one of my students to try and piece together different snippets of information from lots of different science papers which he did very well (he was a good Neuroscience student). The conclusions of this exercise seem to be that different types of meditation produce different patterns of brain area activations and deactivations. But we don't know what this really means because we don't really know what these areas really do in the big scheme of things. Other studies showed that long term meditators (and that means people who've been doing it regularly and frequently of many, many years) seem to retain the amount of grey matter they have in their brains and may even increase it. Grey matter loss seems to be associated with dementia etc, so inference it cold be beneficial but we don't know that for sure. Tumours are an increase in tissue in a certain area after all (albeit from weird cells!) and that most definitely is not beneficial. When I get time I'll have a look at this research critically, because you have to remember that neurones in the brain do not regenerate (as far as we know) so this is saying something pretty spectacular!
Re: [Zen] Mindfulness meditation training changes brain structure in 8 weeks
It's only going to be an article for a popular science magazine like New Scientist or Scientific American-nothing very dazzling I can assure you. I'm still collecting data and I'll get to writing something when the academic year is over and I have so time to think about it. In the meantime, we should all keep trying to meditate just in case! There will be many people in our school be interested in getting a copy of your book. -- Dr Anil Sahal Department of Biomedical Sciences Alfred Denny Building University of Sheffield Western Bank Sheffield S10 2TN United Kingdom Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Makya, It is precisely my direct experience that brings me to this. I studied from very insightful and wise teachers. But there's an old saying.. Those who can--do. Those who can't--teach. Yes-- there is a lot of self-righteousness in zen and other communities. There is some here. Looking in the mirror can guide us all. My direct experience tells me that it has very little to do with pointing to the moon, and solving riddles. Its about getting one's hands dirty in the earth. When it comes to no-self, I can assure you that someone's self beat and hurt those children. It happens every single day. If you'd like to help, I can refer to a place who desperately needs some. Take care.. k --- On Mon, 1/24/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 7:00 AM K Wrote: Should zennists, (or any spiritual practitioner), get off their butts, and practise what they preach? Is there not a certain self-righteousness in believing that the chants of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of self-focus?. I haven't seen many real zennist practitioners preaching so far. Though they may be sharing the fruits of their own practise or direct experience with it. There is no preaching in zen as far as I know. Perhaps you were not lucky enough to find the real practitioners. Or perhaps you rely a bit too much in Internet resources and postings from which you get this incorrect ideas about zen practitioners. The same word practitioner means that that person doesn't follows preachings but that person is putting into real direct experience whatever is talking about. However, I would agree with you that often in Internet there is more a lot of more talking zen that actually the experience of the practise talking through that talk. A tutti frutti for all tastes and from which there is also a sort of learning behind. Nothing is completely black and nothing is completely white. Mayka --- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 8:28 Brett, I completely agree. Something did occur to me as I read your post. I think its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their journey by doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group. Exploring within as they are guided. Supposedly then, one has gained enough inner clarity so those other things are unnecessary. For myself, I began a zen learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing more clearly as time passes, that this is no longer a spiritual path for me. I embrace zazen, much of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the ethical conduct teachings. But even there, I am far more guided by the yoga limbs , than by many of the theological teachings of buddhism. I feel that there can be great value in a spiritual path, or even quest. But, I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An interchange between Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for a long time. Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their butts, and practice what they preach? Is there not a certain self-righteousness in believing that the chants of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of self-focus? While serenely watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive care whose father beat him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury. While someone is cooking their organic tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent put her feet in boiling water because the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show you the newspaper paragraph detailing how a baby died after being placed in a microwave. I have to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a foundation. But, my library of books and teacher- interviews and the rest is over. Its about plugging in--for me. As you said, its finding one's own truth. Be well. Kristy --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 9:41 PM I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others
Re: [Zen] Mindfulness meditation training changes brain structure in 8 weeks
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anil Sahal A.Sahal@... wrote: I first became interested in meditation and brain whilst attending the 'Neuroscience' conference in San Fransisco as few years ago in which the Dalai Lama was the key note speaker and offered us, with a big grin, the use of several of his monks for research purposes! One of the things I note about the field now, is that there seems to be very few studies in which direct comparisons can be made between schools of meditation. So I got one of my students to try and piece together different snippets of information from lots of different science papers which he did very well (he was a good Neuroscience student). The conclusions of this exercise seem to be that different types of meditation produce different patterns of brain area activations and deactivations. But we don't know what this really means because we don't really know what these areas really do in the big scheme of things. Other studies showed that long term meditators (and that means people who've been doing it regularly and frequently of many, many years) seem to retain the amount of grey matter they have in their brains and may even increase it. Grey matter loss seems to be associated with dementia etc, so inference it cold be beneficial but we don't know that for sure. Tumours are an increase in tissue in a certain area after all (albeit from weird cells!) and that most definitely is not beneficial. When I get time I'll have a look at this research critically, because you have to remember that neurones in the brain do not regenerate (as far as we know) so this is saying something pretty spectacular! Hi Anil. Thank you. One more good reason to meditate! Say, in your opinion, is the relationship between brain area activations and states of consciousness causal or correlative? And what about qualia? Do you subscribe to the cognitive paradigm endorsed by the likes of Dennet and Pinker? Steve Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Got me thinking on that one Ed. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On Mon, 1/24/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 6:28 AM What is truth asked jesting Pilate and he did not wait for an answer. --Sir Francis Bacon John chapter 18, verse 38 of the Gospel of John, is often referred to as jesting Pilate or Truth? What is truth?, of Latin: Quid est veritas?. In it, Pontius Pilate questions Jesus' claim that he is witness to the truth (John 18:37). He then proclaims to the masses (lit., the Jews referring to the Jewish authorities) that he does not consider Jesus guilty of any crime. (Wiki) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@... wrote: For me, I believe the truth is inside us all.
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Kristy, Thank you for your insight. I feel books and people are a part of my learning experience here in life, but I also believe that true enlightenment comes from with in. As far as getting off our butts and doing something to help other in need goes, I also believe that the insight that comes from us seeking the truth, will lead us to the right course of action, or in some cases, non-action. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On Mon, 1/24/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 12:28 AM Brett, I completely agree. Something did occur to me as I read your post. I think its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their journey by doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group. Exploring within as they are guided. Supposedly then, one has gained enough inner clarity so those other things are unnecessary. For myself, I began a zen learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing more clearly as time passes, that this is no longer a spiritual path for me. I embrace zazen, much of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the ethical conduct teachings. But even there, I am far more guided by the yoga limbs , than by many of the theological teachings of buddhism. I feel that there can be great value in a spiritual path, or even quest. But, I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An interchange between Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for a long time. Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their butts, and practice what they preach? Is there not a certain self-righteousness in believing that the chants of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of self-focus? While serenely watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive care whose father beat him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury. While someone is cooking their organic tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent put her feet in boiling water because the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show you the newspaper paragraph detailing how a baby died after being placed in a microwave. I have to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a foundation. But, my library of books and teacher- interviews and the rest is over. Its about plugging in--for me. As you said, its finding one's own truth. Be well. Kristy --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 9:41 PM I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them selves. I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that. I believe that is why there is so much division in religions and belief systems. I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more unity in this world. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Thanks K. Paste the children link if you wish to do so. Caring for the wellbeing of all life is very rewarding. Very glad of hearing at your enthusiasm and humanitarian intentions. I used to be in togetherness with one of my sisters and a friend amongst the supporters and sponsors of the hungry children from Vietnam. Mayka --- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 17:14 Makya, It is precisely my direct experience that brings me to this. I studied from very insightful and wise teachers. But there's an old saying.. Those who can--do. Those who can't--teach. Yes-- there is a lot of self-righteousness in zen and other communities. There is some here. Looking in the mirror can guide us all. My direct experience tells me that it has very little to do with pointing to the moon, and solving riddles. Its about getting one's hands dirty in the earth. When it comes to no-self, I can assure you that someone's self beat and hurt those children. It happens every single day. If you'd like to help, I can refer to a place who desperately needs some. Take care.. k --- On Mon, 1/24/11, Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com wrote: From: Maria Lopez flordel...@btinternet.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 7:00 AM K Wrote: Should zennists, (or any spiritual practitioner), get off their butts, and practise what they preach? Is there not a certain self-righteousness in believing that the chants of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of self-focus?. I haven't seen many real zennist practitioners preaching so far. Though they may be sharing the fruits of their own practise or direct experience with it. There is no preaching in zen as far as I know. Perhaps you were not lucky enough to find the real practitioners. Or perhaps you rely a bit too much in Internet resources and postings from which you get this incorrect ideas about zen practitioners. The same word practitioner means that that person doesn't follows preachings but that person is putting into real direct experience whatever is talking about. However, I would agree with you that often in Internet there is more a lot of more talking zen that actually the experience of the practise talking through that talk. A tutti frutti for all tastes and from which there is also a sort of learning behind. Nothing is completely black and nothing is completely white. Mayka --- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 8:28 Brett, I completely agree. Something did occur to me as I read your post. I think its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring the division. My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their journey by doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group. Exploring within as they are guided. Supposedly then, one has gained enough inner clarity so those other things are unnecessary. For myself, I began a zen learning-curve , and practice around 1990. I'm realizing more clearly as time passes, that this is no longer a spiritual path for me. I embrace zazen, much of the zen psychology and philosophy, as well as the ethical conduct teachings. But even there, I am far more guided by the yoga limbs , than by many of the theological teachings of buddhism. I feel that there can be great value in a spiritual path, or even quest. But, I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. An interchange between Bill and Ed put into words something I've been feeling for a long time. Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their butts, and practice what they preach? Is there not a certain self-righteousness in believing that the chants of unity and oneness, and purity of heart while sitting zazen, the ultimate expression of self-focus? While serenely watching their breath, I can show you a 4-year old in intensive care whose father beat him so severly that he has a traumatic brain injury. While someone is cooking their organic tofu-stir-fry at a peace rally, I can show you a 10-month-old whose drunken parent put her feet in boiling water because the baby cried--probably because she had not a bottle or food in 12 hours. While some are reading sutras at a 90-day intensive retreat, I can show you the newspaper paragraph detailing how a baby died after being placed in a microwave. I have to believe that what I've learned and experienced so far, gave me a foundation. But, my library of
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@... wrote: Hi Steve, I think how I would answer that, is both. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 Hi Brett. Good answer, imo. Steve Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Mindfulness meditation training changes brain structure in 8 weeks
Hi Anil. Thank you. One more good reason to meditate! Say, in your opinion, is the relationship between brain area activations and states of consciousness causal or correlative? There's insufficient data for a meaningful answer. We have NO idea what consciousness is-we can't even agree on a definition really. Francis Crick (of DNA fame) spent his last few years investigating consciousness and came up with some interesting ideas on physical correlates of it, but nothing of deep understanding. And what about qualia? Nothing. Do you subscribe to the cognitive paradigm endorsed by the likes of Dennet and Pinker? Psychologists? How dare you associate a real scientist with Psychologists! ;-) Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Before I started practicing meditation, I had hard time dealing with problems in my life. The problem, what ever they were, would run through my mind over and over again, and I would talk about it over and over again. People would tell me to not let it get to me so much, and just let it go, but to tell you the truth, I didn't now how to do that. I would try to fix the problems, and most of the time, my emotions would get the best of me. It felt like I was trying to break down a brick wall with my head, I was not getting any where, and I was hurting myself in the process. I was living in the past, and dreading the future. This went on for many years, till the point that I felt I was having an emotional breakdown. I turned to councilors, churches, books and to God. And to some degree these helped, and I learned things from these sources, but the way I responded to problem, was my problem, and that I was looking to everyone, and everything else to find a solution to my torment. The meditation for me has been a life saver. Almost instantly I found balance in my life. Not to say I am at some place of bliss in my life, but the change in me is amazing. People who know me say I am like a different person. I am sorry for going on like that, I guess I needed to share that with new cyber space group members:) Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On Mon, 1/24/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 12:19 PM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@... wrote: Hi Steve, I think how I would answer that, is both. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 Hi Brett. Good answer, imo. Steve Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Mindfulness meditation training changes brain structure in 8 weeks
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, A Sahal A.Sahal@... wrote: Hi Anil. Thank you. One more good reason to meditate! Say, in your opinion, is the relationship between brain area activations and states of consciousness causal or correlative? There's insufficient data for a meaningful answer. We have NO idea what consciousness is-we can't even agree on a definition really. Francis Crick (of DNA fame) spent his last few years investigating consciousness and came up with some interesting ideas on physical correlates of it, but nothing of deep understanding. And what about qualia? Nothing. Do you subscribe to the cognitive paradigm endorsed by the likes of Dennet and Pinker? Psychologists? How dare you associate a real scientist with Psychologists! ;-) Thank you for your frank and concise replies. Did Crick's work involve the 'microtubules' speculations of Roger Penrose? Ironic isn't it that we can't even define that which is so apparent! Have you read the work of John Searle? Steve It is like an eye that sees, but cannot see itself! It is like a sword that cuts, but cannot cut itself! -The Zenrin All Buddhas and all sentient beings are no different from the One Mind. In this One Mind there is neither arising nor ceasing, no name or form, no long or short, no large or small, and neither existence nor non-existence. It transcends all limitations of name, word and relativity, and it is as boundless as the Great Void. -Huang Po Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Hi Tao Mountain Sage, Chan itself does not have a practice. Chan by itself is just another name for the truth of the universe, where people been seeking through many different paths, some religious, some scientific and some philosophical. My teacher has only illustrated the Nature of Chan to his students, which is the nature of of the universe, or academically call characteristics of the universe. These characteristics are in all beings, big and small as well as in their relationships. The practice, to be in sync with these characteristics, is however Chan Buddhist, because our Order is Chan Buddhist. Sorry to disappoint you. On the other hand, whatever it is called is not important. How effective can the practice integrate our body, mind and spirit into one is more important. Besides, even among various schools of Chan Buddhist, there are many different teachings. Buddha call this period of ours, the Dark Ages of Buddhism for exactly that reason. I would say, this is really the dark ages of all religions. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/24/2011 12:58 PM, Deborah Mingins wrote: To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is this true practice in Chan ie not Chan Buddhism .taomtnsa...@yahoo.com mailto:.taomtnsa...@yahoo.com *From:* Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them selves. I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that. I believe that is why there is so much division in religions and belief systems. I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more unity in this world. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On *Sun, 1/23/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 7:57 PM Hello Anthony, My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. Are these titles meaningful? Absolutely not. Awakening got to arise from inside of us and not from words I posted. All we have to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking. My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to. In China, we call that Chan. Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or structure. In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism. Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to state so. We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org/ On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you something better than Chan/ Anthony --- On *Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM Good Day To All, My Teacher would say, the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of Chan is not. Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible and the invisible, the energy and its form,
Re: [Zen] Mindfulness meditation training changes brain structure in 8 weeks
Thank you for your quick response, Anil. Please do send us whatever is convenient for you for our archive, when you are ready. Thanks, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/24/2011 8:12 AM, Anil Sahal wrote: It's only going to be an article for a popular science magazine like New Scientist or Scientific American-nothing very dazzling I can assure you. I'm still collecting data and I'll get to writing something when the academic year is over and I have so time to think about it. In the meantime, we should all keep trying to meditate just in case! There will be many people in our school be interested in getting a copy of your book. -- Dr Anil Sahal Department of Biomedical Sciences Alfred Denny Building University of Sheffield Western Bank Sheffield S10 2TN United Kingdom
Re: [Zen] Re: Meditation Problem
Bill/ED, There is no denying that the present forms of zen (Soto, Rinzai etc) developed from mahayana Buddhism. The 'jhana' practice before Buddhism can be traced to early Hinduism. In China, Laozi was approximately contemporary of Sakyamuni. So earlier than Hinduism (Brahmaism), we can only guess what people did. At present, after you received an estate from your father, you can do whatever you like with the money, contrary to the old man's wishes. As regards 'cultures far removed from India', what have you read? Do you believe them? Anthony --- On Mon, 24/1/11, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Subject: [Zen] Re: Meditation Problem To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 8:28 AM ED, What we now call zen (direct experience of reality) exsisted before Buddha and therefore before Buddhism. There are also examples of zen in cultures far removed from India. I see Zen Buddhism as a Buddhist expression of zen. I practice a Bill! expression of zen. What's in your wallet? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: ZAZEN MEDITATION GUIDE - Chapter 17. The Differences between Buddhism and Zen There is a question that is often raised by people who are interested in Zen Buddhism for the first time, What is difference between Buddhism and Zen?I have the main points for you here: After the Buddha passed away, not too long, a couple of centuries perhaps – his teachings were interpreted in many different ways. These depended on each individual's understanding of his disciples. Buddhism formed into two great systems: Theravada or as it's often called Hinayana: the Small Vehicle, that is, the small car only can carry one person to nirvana, it's ideal type of person is an Arahat (a perfect saint) and; Mahayana or the Great Vehicle, that is, the bigger car that can carry many people at the same time to enlightenment, the ideal person of it is a Bodhisattva, a person who is on the way to the Supreme Enlightenment of the Buddha. Then, about the first century A.D. came Nagarjuna, one of the greatest Buddhist masters of all times. His position is just after the Buddha himself. He founded the Madhyamaka (Middle Path) School with the Doctrine of Sunyata (Emptiness). Almost all Buddhist schools' teachings based on this Doctrine, including Zen teachings. What is the Sunyata? Nagarjuna states it in his Mulamadhyamakakarika (The Middle Treatise): Everything arises from its causes and conditions, And I declare that they are Emptiness. This is merely a pseudo-name And also named the meaning of the Middle Path. 1 And he describes the Sunyata as follows: No arising and no ceasing No permanence and no severance No identity and no difference No coming and no going. 2 snip Above excerpt from: http://www.zenguide.com/zenmedia/books/content.cfm?t=zazen_meditation_gu\ idechapter=17 http://www.zenguide.com/zenmedia/books/content.cfm?t=zazen_meditation_g\ uidechapter=17 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, A Sahal A.Sahal@ wrote: Once a man lay dying in his bed. A Zen priest came to visit him, and asked him if there was anything he could do for him. The dying man, irritated, said, I came into this world alone and now I am going out of it alone, what could you possibly do for me? The Zen priest replied, If you really think that you come and go, then that is your delusion. But why not let me show you the path on which there is no coming and there is no going? At this, the dying man suddenly had insight and, smiling, died in peace. That wasn't a smile, it was a grimace as the ulcer in his stomach finally punched its way through a major blood vessel and caused death by exsanguination! It could just as likely be said that the Zen priest gave the dying man a different delusion, one in which he thought there was purpose in his life and death, when in fact there is none.
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
JMJM, You say: Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. Please present proof. Anthony --- On Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM Hello Anthony, My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. Are these titles meaningful? Absolutely not. Awakening got to arise from inside of us and not from words I posted. All we have to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking. My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to. In China, we call that Chan. Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or structure. In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism. Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to state so. We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you something better than Chan/ Anthony --- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM Good Day To All, My Teacher would say, the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of Chan is not. Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as integrating. Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching. All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also the nature of man and of all beings big and small. Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often remind us, True practice begins after awakening. We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate. This is what I was taught and have witnessed. Thank you for your time. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
Re: [Zen] Re: Meditation Problem
ED, My imput: To realize direct experience of reality, one practice shikantaza with clear mind (not with day dreaming), or do a koan and get 30 beatings. Anthony --- On Mon, 24/1/11, ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com wrote: From: ED seacrofter...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Meditation Problem To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 10:14 PM Bill, o zen = 'direct experience of reality' o To realize direct experience of reality, one practices shikantaza o With this practice, and without heeding any other of the Buddha's teachings, one can eventually realize one's True Nature (or Buddha Nature) o Zen (or Zen Buddhism) = zen + Buddhism o In the US or in East Asia, over the past century there has never existed a 'zen' center. Please correct any of the above statements, if deemed necessary. Thanks, --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: ED, What we now call zen (direct experience of reality) exsisted before Buddha and therefore before Buddhism. There are also examples of zen in cultures far removed from India. I see Zen Buddhism as a Buddhist expression of zen. I practice a Bill! expression of zen. What's in your wallet? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@... wrote: Before I started practicing meditation, I had hard time dealing with problems in my life. The problem, what ever they were, would run through my mind over and over again, and I would talk about it over and over again. People would tell me to not let it get to me so much, and just let it go, but to tell you the truth, I didn't now how to do that. I would try to fix the problems, and most of the time, my emotions would get the best of me. It felt like I was trying to break down a brick wall with my head, I was not getting any where, and I was hurting myself in the process. I was living in the past, and dreading the future. This went on for many years, till the point that I felt I was having an emotional breakdown. I turned to councilors, churches, books and to God. And to some degree these helped, and I learned things from these sources, but the way I responded to problem, was my problem, and that I was looking to everyone, and everything else to find a solution to my torment. The meditation for me has been a life saver. Almost instantly I found balance in my life. Not to say I am at some place of bliss in my life, but the change in me is amazing. People who know me say I am like a different person. I am sorry for going on like that, I guess I needed to share that with new cyber space group members:) Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 Wei Wu Wei commented that its ironic that we spend so much time and energy defending, protecting and worrying about our ego when there isn't one. And its ironic that we spend so much time and energy obsessing about the past and the future when only now exists. A tormented man stands in the snow outside the gates of the Shao-Lin temple holding aloft his severed arm and cries out in anguish, Master! My mind is never at peace! Please pacify my mind! Bodhidharma appears at the gate and says, How very strange! Please bring it over here so that I may look at it. I try to grasp it, cries the seeker, but I cannot find it in order to hold it! There! shouts Bodhidharma, I have pacified your mind! In that little space between inhalation and exhalation is The Center, which is always right here, right now. Do not listen with your ears, but with your mind. Do not listen with your mind, but with your breath. The function of the ear ends with sounds. The function of the mind ends with symbols and ideas. But in the breath is an emptiness ready to receive all things. The Way abides in the emptiness. The emptiness is the fasting of the mind. -Chuang Tzu Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Thank you Steve, I liked that story very much, and see a lot of truth in it. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On Mon, 1/24/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 3:03 PM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@... wrote: Before I started practicing meditation, I had hard time dealing with problems in my life. The problem, what ever they were, would run through my mind over and over again, and I would talk about it over and over again. People would tell me to not let it get to me so much, and just let it go, but to tell you the truth, I didn't now how to do that. I would try to fix the problems, and most of the time, my emotions would get the best of me. It felt like I was trying to break down a brick wall with my head, I was not getting any where, and I was hurting myself in the process. I was living in the past, and dreading the future. This went on for many years, till the point that I felt I was having an emotional breakdown. I turned to councilors, churches, books and to God. And to some degree these helped, and I learned things from these sources, but the way I responded to problem, was my problem, and that I was looking to everyone, and everything else to find a solution to my torment. The meditation for me has been a life saver. Almost instantly I found balance in my life. Not to say I am at some place of bliss in my life, but the change in me is amazing. People who know me say I am like a different person. I am sorry for going on like that, I guess I needed to share that with new cyber space group members:) Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 Wei Wu Wei commented that its ironic that we spend so much time and energy defending, protecting and worrying about our ego when there isn't one. And its ironic that we spend so much time and energy obsessing about the past and the future when only now exists. A tormented man stands in the snow outside the gates of the Shao-Lin temple holding aloft his severed arm and cries out in anguish, Master! My mind is never at peace! Please pacify my mind! Bodhidharma appears at the gate and says, How very strange! Please bring it over here so that I may look at it. I try to grasp it, cries the seeker, but I cannot find it in order to hold it! There! shouts Bodhidharma, I have pacified your mind! In that little space between inhalation and exhalation is The Center, which is always right here, right now. Do not listen with your ears, but with your mind. Do not listen with your mind, but with your breath. The function of the ear ends with sounds. The function of the mind ends with symbols and ideas. But in the breath is an emptiness ready to receive all things. The Way abides in the emptiness. The emptiness is the fasting of the mind. -Chuang Tzu Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
JMJM, You say: My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. The lineages are impressive. But what do you have in common with Sakyamuni and Bodhidharma or Linji? Did either of them say Chan is equal to the whole universe? Anthony --- On Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM Hello Anthony, My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. Are these titles meaningful? Absolutely not. Awakening got to arise from inside of us and not from words I posted. All we have to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking. My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to. In China, we call that Chan. Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or structure. In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism. Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to state so. We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you something better than Chan/ Anthony --- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM Good Day To All, My Teacher would say, the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of Chan is not. Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as integrating. Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching. All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also the nature of man and of all beings big and small. Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often remind us, True practice begins after awakening. We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate. This is what I was taught and have witnessed. Thank you for your time. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Anthony, Please translate the book I emailed to you from Chinese into English and post to this question of yours for the benefit of the group. Then you can either accept this version or reject it. The choice is yours. I do like to recommend to you, please be detached from all forms, especially words. 『文字相』。Diamond Sutra said it very clearly, Be detached from the Form of Dharma. As I said in my other posts, even in the school of Chan Buddhism, there are differences in teaching and more so in practice. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am just sharing my personal witness. Nothing is absolute. Words has no value until you can connect to it. Nothing I have posted has any value until you begin practice it. Just ignore me. Okay? JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/24/2011 2:47 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, You say: Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. Please present proof. Anthony --- On *Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM Hello Anthony, My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. Are these titles meaningful? Absolutely not. Awakening got to arise from inside of us and not from words I posted. All we have to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking. My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to. In China, we call that Chan. Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or structure. In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism. Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to state so. We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you something better than Chan/ Anthony --- On *Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM Good Day To All, My Teacher would say, the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of Chan is not. Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as integrating. Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching. All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also the nature of man and of all beings big and small. Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often remind us, True practice begins after awakening. We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate. This is what I was taught and have witnessed. Thank you for your time. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life -
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Dear Anthony, The truth is not in words. Buddha said that. Chan is taught without words. Buddha said that. Chan is an experience. Diamond Sutra stated very clearly, All describable dharma is not it. Chan is the universe is the closest that my witness is. Additonally, witness Chan is based on having universal Chi, without it, there is no witness. This is also my witness. What is yours? How does your apple taste like? Anthony, Pleeeaaase, Shut up, Sit down, Stop thinking, Start breathing. LOL :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/24/2011 3:28 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, You say: My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. The lineages are impressive. But what do you have in common with Sakyamuni and Bodhidharma or Linji? Did either of them say Chan is equal to the whole universe? Anthony --- On *Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM Hello Anthony, My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. Are these titles meaningful? Absolutely not. Awakening got to arise from inside of us and not from words I posted. All we have to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking. My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to. In China, we call that Chan. Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or structure. In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism. Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to state so. We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org http://www.heartchan.org/ On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you something better than Chan/ Anthony --- On *Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM Good Day To All, My Teacher would say, the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of Chan is not. Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as integrating. Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching. All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also the nature of man and of all beings big and small. Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often remind us, True practice begins after awakening. We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate. This is what I was taught and have witnessed. Thank you for your time. JMJM -- Be
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
JMJM, As long as you don't shut up, I will continue to talk. Your words are full of discrepencies. But who cares? Mao Zedong says that without discrepancies there is no life. Thank you for giving us a lot of fun. Lets both enjoy it. Anthony --- On Tue, 25/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 7:44 AM Dear Anthony, The truth is not in words. Buddha said that. Chan is taught without words. Buddha said that. Chan is an experience. Diamond Sutra stated very clearly, All describable dharma is not it. Chan is the universe is the closest that my witness is. Additonally, witness Chan is based on having universal Chi, without it, there is no witness. This is also my witness. What is yours? How does your apple taste like? Anthony, Pleeeaaase, Shut up, Sit down, Stop thinking, Start breathing. LOL :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/24/2011 3:28 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, You say: My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. The lineages are impressive. But what do you have in common with Sakyamuni and Bodhidharma or Linji? Did either of them say Chan is equal to the whole universe? Anthony --- On Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM Hello Anthony, My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. Are these titles meaningful? Absolutely not. Awakening got to arise from inside of us and not from words I posted. All we have to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking. My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to. In China, we call that Chan. Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or structure. In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism. Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to state so. We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you something better than Chan/ Anthony --- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM Good Day To All, My Teacher would say, the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of Chan is not. Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as integrating. Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching. All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also the nature of man and of all beings big and small. Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often remind us, True practice begins after awakening. We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate. This is what I was taught and have witnessed. Thank you for your time. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
JMJM, You say, Just ignore me. No, I can't ignore you. Anthony --- On Tue, 25/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 7:37 AM Anthony, Please translate the book I emailed to you from Chinese into English and post to this question of yours for the benefit of the group. Then you can either accept this version or reject it. The choice is yours. I do like to recommend to you, please be detached from all forms, especially words. 『文字相』。Diamond Sutra said it very clearly, Be detached from the Form of Dharma. As I said in my other posts, even in the school of Chan Buddhism, there are differences in teaching and more so in practice. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am just sharing my personal witness. Nothing is absolute. Words has no value until you can connect to it. Nothing I have posted has any value until you begin practice it. Just ignore me. Okay? JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/24/2011 2:47 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, You say: Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. Please present proof. Anthony --- On Mon, 24/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 11:57 AM Hello Anthony, My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. Are these titles meaningful? Absolutely not. Awakening got to arise from inside of us and not from words I posted. All we have to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking. My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to. In China, we call that Chan. Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or structure. In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism. Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to state so. We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Is your teacher higher
[Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?(to Kristy/Brett/list)
--- On Mon, 24/1/11, Kristy McClain healthypl...@yahoo.com wrote: K: I think its the attachment to a book or teacher or lineage or whatever, that can bring the division. MEL: Yes, that is quiet so. However, I'm quite open about it, but I'm actually attached to the work ZEN MIND BEGINNER'S MIND by Shunryu Suzuki-sensei. It has become something of a 'zen bible' for me, so to speak. Many would regard this as heresy, but I have such attachment as the basis of my Zen beliefs. Before this, I was very much attached to Deshimaru-sensei's works such as A QUESTION TO A ZEN MASTER. His humour made me laugh, but I didn't really feel as if I really got anywhere in everyday life. Everyday life is still something I struggle with despite the meditative practices. Nevertheless, I keep pursuing this path of mine K: My experience and observations tell me that most do begin their journey by doing some reading, meeting with a teacher or group. MEL: Being right in the middle of rat-race surrounded by corporate-minded and religiously materialistic and dualistic people meant that I had no real chance of being part of a group or accessing a teacher from the very beginning. I can count only one experience where an actual believing Buddhist actually brought light within me concerning practise. I wouldn't describe the experience as Nirvana as such, but the young boy concerned certainly brought light to the darkness within me As for being part of a group, that could never be. From my experience, nobody but the Soto Zen priest in one temple I went to for a while talked about the teachings. I got the impression that everybody was afraid to be seen as egotistical in any manner or sense by volunteering information...which is why I rely a lot on reading materials such as the book above K: Exploring within as they are guided. Supposedly then, one has gained enough inner clarity so those other things are unnecessary. MEL: Yep, that's me as well K: For myself, I began a zen learning-curve , and practice around 1990. MEL: Hey, that's about the same time I started as well, and I was in my late 20s then. My original aim was simply to understand the teachings behind A BOOK OF 5 RINGS by Miyamoto Musashi so I could improve my karate practise, but to do that required experience and much soul-searching through not only zazen but Zen living. Some people may say that I may have gone too far to be a good and dedicated karate student because I ended up studyintg the HAGAKURE, history of the Samurai families, Bushido, and the rise and fall of Imperial Japan...amongst other things, which I believe to this day are better understood with a background in Zen K: But even there, I am far more guided by the yoga limbs , than by many of the theological teachings of buddhism. MEL: I've become quite hesitant and even suspicious of the theological side of Buddhism for quite some time, but I decided to turn around and test the waters once more. Perhaps such things as sutra chanting and reading, bead counting, the teachings of love for one's fellow beings, and much more may have place in my life, right along and beside that much more rigid and uncompromising ronin-like attitude I've had for years K: I feel that there can be great value in a spiritual path, or even quest. But, I also wonder if there is a very real egotistic selfishness to it as well. MEL: Others might, but I won't deny such. I confess to the above K: Should zennists, (or any spiritual practioner), get off their butts, and practice what they preach? MEL: I've been sort of preaching(verbal) myself but I've put a complete stop to it. Some would say that preaching itself through word and practise is one of the vows of the bodhisattva but the line between that ego and the pure spirit can become blurred in my case --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com wrote: B: I believe the truth is inside us all. MEL: Yes, and somehow Man refuses to listen to it B: I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them selves. MEL: I agree. I use such things as books and other reading material outside of zazen practise, but then be guided afterwards by that gut instinct within Buddha be praised in peace Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
[Zen] Re: Is Chan Buddhist?(to Kristy/Brett/list)
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mel gunnar19632000@... wrote: Everyday life is still something I struggle with despite the meditative practices. Nevertheless, I keep pursuing this path of mine Hi Mel. What do you struggle with, if I may ask? Steve Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Huang Po(to Steve/list)
--- On Tue, 25/1/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: All Buddhas and all sentient beings are no different from the One Mind. In this One Mind there is neither arising nor ceasing, no name or form, no long or short, no large or small, and neither existence nor non-existence. It transcends all limitations of name, word and relativity, and it is as boundless as the Great Void. -Huang Po MEL: I like the above. My thoughts on the above is the following - All, being no different from Buddha and yet Buddha is in each and every living and non-living being, entity, object, matter, and so on..with no name/label, physical form, relative or related to another and yet not so(just as all with the stars and other heavenly bodies above us). There is just no sufficient way to describe it. One just experiences it Thank you Steve. I am learning so much from yourself, Anthony, Bill, Kristy, Chris, Mayka, and so many others in here and other forums Buddha be praised Mel
[Zen] Is Zen, Buddhist?(to Anthony/list)
Hello Anthony First of all, I'd like to thank you for all your postings. I'm learning quite a lot from you. However, a question please...do you think it matters whether Zen as a belief, is Buddhist or not? What's your opinion please in peace Mel --- On Tue, 25/1/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: There is no denying that the present forms of zen (Soto, Rinzai etc) developed from mahayana Buddhism. The 'jhana' practice before Buddhism can be traced to early Hinduism. In China, Laozi was approximately contemporary of Sakyamuni. So earlier than Hinduism (Brahmaism), we can only guess what people did. As regards 'cultures far removed from India', what have you read? Do you believe them? Anthony Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Impurity in practise(to Steve/list)
Hello Steve I'm struggling with keeping my practise pure. I take part in zazen practise and read/study ZEN MIND BEGINNERS MIND, and yet I make myself impure by - having so much desire for junk food and other material things - not working hard enough on my OCD problem - wordlessly insisting on approval and acceptance from others - by contaminating the 'uncarved block' with more of other such impurities I can see where Suzuki-sensei is coming from, and I therefore see that I have a lot to work on. One of the benefits of working on the above is an overall improvement in my life, especially the health factor. Yes, I have a lot to work on Thank you for teaching me Buddha be praised Mel --- On Tue, 25/1/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Is Chan Buddhist?(to Kristy/Brett/list) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 12:27 PM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mel gunnar19632000@... wrote: Everyday life is still something I struggle with despite the meditative practices. Nevertheless, I keep pursuing this path of mine Hi Mel. What do you struggle with, if I may ask? Steve
Re: [Zen] Impurity in practise(to Steve/list)
Mel, Sorry to butt in. I am surprised you also have OCD. Looking at myself, I cannot help recognizing my own OCD. As regards struggling with impurities, why make ourselves unhappy with them? Tantra has a way of 'turning the impure into the pure'. For instance, they use a sex ritual to conquer lust. What a wonderful practice. Anthony --- On Tue, 25/1/11, Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au wrote: From: Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au Subject: [Zen] Impurity in practise(to Steve/list) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 9:47 AM Hello Steve I'm struggling with keeping my practise pure. I take part in zazen practise and read/study ZEN MIND BEGINNERS MIND, and yet I make myself impure by - having so much desire for junk food and other material things - not working hard enough on my OCD problem - wordlessly insisting on approval and acceptance from others - by contaminating the 'uncarved block' with more of other such impurities I can see where Suzuki-sensei is coming from, and I therefore see that I have a lot to work on. One of the benefits of working on the above is an overall improvement in my life, especially the health factor. Yes, I have a lot to work on Thank you for teaching me Buddha be praised Mel --- On Tue, 25/1/11, SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com wrote: From: SteveW eugnostos2...@yahoo.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Is Chan Buddhist?(to Kristy/Brett/list) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Received: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 12:27 PM --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mel gunnar19632000@... wrote: Everyday life is still something I struggle with despite the meditative practices. Nevertheless, I keep pursuing this path of mine Hi Mel. What do you struggle with, if I may ask? Steve
Re: [Zen] Is Zen, Buddhist?(to Anthony/list)
Mel, I don't really care whether zen is Buddhist or not. However, one should appreciate Buddhism as the origin of the present day zen. Jusus or Mohamed did not initiate it, didn't they? Anthony --- On Tue, 25/1/11, Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au wrote: From: Mel gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au Subject: [Zen] Is Zen, Buddhist?(to Anthony/list) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 25 January, 2011, 9:34 AM Hello Anthony First of all, I'd like to thank you for all your postings. I'm learning quite a lot from you. However, a question please...do you think it matters whether Zen as a belief, is Buddhist or not? What's your opinion please in peace Mel --- On Tue, 25/1/11, Anthony Wu wu...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: There is no denying that the present forms of zen (Soto, Rinzai etc) developed from mahayana Buddhism. The 'jhana' practice before Buddhism can be traced to early Hinduism. In China, Laozi was approximately contemporary of Sakyamuni. So earlier than Hinduism (Brahmaism), we can only guess what people did. As regards 'cultures far removed from India', what have you read? Do you believe them? Anthony
[Zen] Re: Meditation Problem
Anthony, According to Dr. James Austin in his book 'Zen-Brain Reflections', the Jhana states are encountered immediately prior to the states of kensho-satori. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: Bill/ED, There is no denying that the present forms of zen (Soto, Rinzai etc) developed from mahayana Buddhism. The 'jhana' practice before Buddhism can be traced to early Hinduism.
[Zen] Re: Impurity in practise(to Steve/list)
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Mel gunnar19632000@... wrote: Hello Steve  I'm struggling with keeping my practise pure. I take part in zazen practise and read/study ZEN MIND BEGINNERS MIND, and yet I make myself impure by  - having so much desire for junk food and other material things - not working hard enough on my OCD problem - wordlessly insisting on approval and acceptance from others - by contaminating the 'uncarved block' with more of other such impurities  I can see where Suzuki-sensei is coming from, and I therefore see that I have a lot to work on. One of the benefits of working on the above is an overall improvement in my life, especially the health factor. Yes, I have a lot to work on  Thank you for teaching me  Buddha be praised Mel Hi Mel. Everybody is teaching everybody. Mel, in my opinion, one shouldn't try to force anything. Part of the ego-delusion is the feeling that you, as a separate, independant agent is doing everything and that everything depends upon what you, as a separate, independant agent, do or do not do. Consider this well-known Zen saying: Sitting quietly, doing nothing, Spring comes and the grass grows by itself. Now this does not mean that you shouldn't practice. Just don't think that you, as a separate, independant agent are the one who is doing it. As I have mentioned before, I practice the combined Pureland and Zen. Zen is called by the Japanese 'Jiriki', or 'self-power'. Pureland is called 'Tariki', or 'other power'. But ultimately there is only One Power. We form a feed-back loop with this 'Other Than Ego Power'. This Other Than Ego Power is The One Mind of Enlightenment, and we and It are Not-Two. The Japanese say that this is the interpenetration of Ki and Ho, Finite and Infinite. From our point of view as foolish sentient beings we are lost in a muddle of afflictions. From the point of view of the Infinite, everything is already perfect and the Primal Vow has already been fulfilled. From our fragmented point of view, we cannot intellectually understand this, but we can come to trust in it. Once you have this trust, what the Japanese call Shinjin, then you can be more at ease in your practice, knowing that you, as an ego, are not doing it. It is doing it, and it knows what it is doing. And ultimately, everything has already been accomplished. I bow to the Infinite Light! Namo Amitabha Buddhaya! Namu Amida Butsu! Namo Amito Fo! Steve Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Meditation Problem
ED, As usual with your posts no corrections (inserting my opinions) are neccessary, but I will add a few unnecessary comments: --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: Bill, o zen = 'direct experience of reality' o To realize direct experience of reality, one practices shikantaza Shikantaza is direct experience of reality - or shikanta-anything. o With this practice, and without heeding any other of the Buddha's teachings, one can eventually realize one's True Nature (or Buddha Nature) If 'without heeding' means 'not attaching to' then yes, I agree with the above statement. If 'without heeding' means 'rejecting' or 'going against' then no, I do not agree with the above statement. o Zen (or Zen Buddhism) = zen + Buddhism o In the US or in East Asia, over the past century there has never existed a 'zen' center. I don't know of any. There are of course some very good Zen Buddhist and Chan Buddhist centers that can help you begin zen practice within the more obvious Zen Buddhist and Chan Buddhist practices. Please correct any of the above statements, if deemed necessary. Thanks, --ED ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: ED, What we now call zen (direct experience of reality) exsisted before Buddha and therefore before Buddhism. There are also examples of zen in cultures far removed from India. I see Zen Buddhism as a Buddhist expression of zen. I practice a Bill! expression of zen. What's in your wallet? ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Brett, Stop thinking and sit (zazen)...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@... wrote: Got me thinking on that one Ed. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On Mon, 1/24/11, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: From: ED seacrofter001@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 6:28 AM What is truth asked jesting Pilate and he did not wait for an answer. --Sir Francis Bacon John chapter 18, verse 38 of the Gospel of John, is often referred to as jesting Pilate or Truth? What is truth?, of Latin: Quid est veritas?. In it, Pontius Pilate questions Jesus' claim that he is witness to the truth (John 18:37). He then proclaims to the masses (lit., the Jews referring to the Jewish authorities) that he does not consider Jesus guilty of any crime. (Wiki) --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@ wrote: For me, I believe the truth is inside us all. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Mindfulness meditation training changes brain structure in 8 weeks
Uh-oh! I think I feel a post from Ed (not ED) coming on...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, A Sahal A.Sahal@... wrote: Hi Anil. Thank you. One more good reason to meditate! Say, in your opinion, is the relationship between brain area activations and states of consciousness causal or correlative? There's insufficient data for a meaningful answer. We have NO idea what consciousness is-we can't even agree on a definition really. Francis Crick (of DNA fame) spent his last few years investigating consciousness and came up with some interesting ideas on physical correlates of it, but nothing of deep understanding. And what about qualia? Nothing. Do you subscribe to the cognitive paradigm endorsed by the likes of Dennet and Pinker? Psychologists? How dare you associate a real scientist with Psychologists! ;-) Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
JMJM- can you tell us how Chan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism are different.thanksDeborah taomtnsa...@yahoo.com From: Deborah Mingins taomtnsa...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, January 24, 2011 3:58:42 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is this true practice in Chan ie not Chan Buddhism .taomtnsa...@yahoo.com From: Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them selves. I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that. I believe that is why there is so much division in religions and belief systems. I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more unity in this world. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 7:57 PM Hello Anthony, My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. Are these titles meaningful? Absolutely not. Awakening got to arise from inside of us and not from words I posted. All we have to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking. My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to. In China, we call that Chan. Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or structure. In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism. Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to state so. We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org/ On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you something better than Chan/ Anthony --- On Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 9:03 AM Good Day To All, My Teacher would say, the Order of Chan is Buddhist, but the witness of Chan is not. Chan is just a nickname for the entire universe, including the visible and the invisible, the energy and its form, the perpetual and the transient, the big and the small, as well as all of its nature. It is always in a state of dynamic balance, always evolving, as well as integrating. Shakyamuni, Confucious, Lao Tze and many other sages all witnessed the truth of the universe, or Chan, and began their teaching. All schools of teaching are about the same truth, because all are part of universe and contains the same nature of the universe. This is also the nature of man and of all beings big and small. Awaken to the universal truth is just the beginning. My Teacher often remind us, True practice begins after awakening. We practice to be totally, completely, wholesomely, physically, mentally and spiritually one with the entire universe, without exception, preference or selection. Such that we could live in sync with our original abilities to harmonize, to balance, to evolve and to integrate. This is what I was taught and have witnessed. Thank you for your time. JMJM -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org/
[Zen] Re: Meditation Problem
Anthony, As you probably know by now I 'shoot from the hip', which means I claim things without having a lot of backup or proof for them. By 'cultures far removed from India' I mean northern Europe and all the New World (North and South America). I have read mystical teachings from cultures such as these that have features that seem to me to parallel shikantaza or zen practice. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: Bill/ED,  There is no denying that the present forms of zen (Soto, Rinzai etc) developed from mahayana Buddhism. The 'jhana' practice before Buddhism can be traced to early Hinduism. In China, Laozi was approximately contemporary of Sakyamuni. So earlier than Hinduism (Brahmaism), we can only guess what people did. At present, after you received an estate from your father, you can do whatever you like with the money, contrary to the old man's wishes.  As regards 'cultures far removed from India', what have you read? Do you believe them?  Anthony --- On Mon, 24/1/11, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: From: Bill! BillSmart@... Subject: [Zen] Re: Meditation Problem To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 8:28 AM  ED, What we now call zen (direct experience of reality) exsisted before Buddha and therefore before Buddhism. There are also examples of zen in cultures far removed from India. I see Zen Buddhism as a Buddhist expression of zen. I practice a Bill! expression of zen. What's in your wallet? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ED seacrofter001@ wrote: ZAZEN MEDITATION GUIDE - Chapter 17. The Differences between Buddhism and Zen There is a question that is often raised by people who are interested in Zen Buddhism for the first time, What is difference between Buddhism and Zen?I have the main points for you here: After the Buddha passed away, not too long, a couple of centuries perhaps â his teachings were interpreted in many different ways. These depended on each individual's understanding of his disciples. Buddhism formed into two great systems: Theravada or as it's often called Hinayana: the Small Vehicle, that is, the small car only can carry one person to nirvana, it's ideal type of person is an Arahat (a perfect saint) and; Mahayana or the Great Vehicle, that is, the bigger car that can carry many people at the same time to enlightenment, the ideal person of it is a Bodhisattva, a person who is on the way to the Supreme Enlightenment of the Buddha. Then, about the first century A.D. came Nagarjuna, one of the greatest Buddhist masters of all times. His position is just after the Buddha himself. He founded the Madhyamaka (Middle Path) School with the Doctrine of Sunyata (Emptiness). Almost all Buddhist schools' teachings based on this Doctrine, including Zen teachings. What is the Sunyata? Nagarjuna states it in his Mulamadhyamakakarika (The Middle Treatise): Everything arises from its causes and conditions, And I declare that they are Emptiness. This is merely a pseudo-name And also named the meaning of the Middle Path. 1 And he describes the Sunyata as follows: No arising and no ceasing No permanence and no severance No identity and no difference No coming and no going. 2 snip Above excerpt from: http://www.zenguide.com/zenmedia/books/content.cfm?t=zazen_meditation_gu\ \ idechapter=17 http://www.zenguide.com/zenmedia/books/content.cfm?t=zazen_meditation_g\ \ uidechapter=17 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, A Sahal A.Sahal@ wrote: Once a man lay dying in his bed. A Zen priest came to visit him, and asked him if there was anything he could do for him. The dying man, irritated, said, I came into this world alone and now I am going out of it alone, what could you possibly do for me? The Zen priest replied, If you really think that you come and go, then that is your delusion. But why not let me show you the path on which there is no coming and there is no going? At this, the dying man suddenly had insight and, smiling, died in peace. That wasn't a smile, it was a grimace as the ulcer in his stomach finally punched its way through a major blood vessel and caused death by exsanguination! It could just as likely be said that the Zen priest gave the dying man a different delusion, one in which he thought there was purpose in his life and death, when in fact there is none. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via
[Zen] Re: Meditation Problem
Anthony, When getting a beating if you practiced shikanta-ouch! you could experience Buddha Nature. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wuasg@... wrote: ED, Â My imput: Â To realize direct experience of reality, one practice shikantaza with clear mind (not with day dreaming), or do a koan and get 30 beatings. Â Anthony --- On Mon, 24/1/11, ED seacrofter001@... wrote: From: ED seacrofter001@... Subject: [Zen] Re: Meditation Problem To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 24 January, 2011, 10:14 PM Â Bill, o zen = 'direct experience of reality' o To realize direct experience of reality, one practices shikantaza o With this practice, and without heeding any other of the Buddha's teachings, one can eventually realize one's True Nature (or Buddha Nature) o Zen (or Zen Buddhism) = zen + Buddhism o In the US or in East Asia, over the past century there has never existed a 'zen' center. Please correct any of the above statements, if deemed necessary. Thanks, --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: ED, What we now call zen (direct experience of reality) exsisted before Buddha and therefore before Buddhism. There are also examples of zen in cultures far removed from India. I see Zen Buddhism as a Buddhist expression of zen. I practice a Bill! expression of zen. What's in your wallet? ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Hi Deborah, Thank you for the question. I don't know Zen Buddhism enough to compare in detail. In words, I seem to sense that Chan and Zen are rather similar. The difference I noticed could be in the practice, such as some of the following: Chan sit with eyes fully closed. Zen with half open. Chan does not do walking. There is walking Zen. Chan sit 45 to 60 minutes. Zen seems to be around 30 minutes. Chan sit with tongue curled. There is no such mention in Zen. Chan sit flat on floor. Zen uses cushions. Chan demand a minimum of half lotus. Not sure about Zen. Chan sit to focus on 10 chakras and 3 chi channels. Not sure about Zen. Chan emphasizes enlightenment in this life time. Not sure about Zen. On the other hand, the Chan that I practice, may not be the Chan other Chinese lineage practice. Yet I would emphasize, that everyone of us, who is practicing, is a blessed one, no matter which path we are on. Yet, the path that we are on are driven by our own karma. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/24/2011 7:59 PM, Deborah Mingins wrote: JMJM- can you tell us how Chan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism are different.thanksDeborah taomtnsa...@yahoo.com mailto:taomtnsa...@yahoo.com *From:* Deborah Mingins taomtnsa...@yahoo.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Mon, January 24, 2011 3:58:42 PM *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is this true practice in Chan ie not Chan Buddhism .taomtnsa...@yahoo.com mailto:.taomtnsa...@yahoo.com *From:* Brett Corbin brettalancor...@yahoo.com *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them selves. I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that. I believe that is why there is so much division in religions and belief systems. I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more unity in this world. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On *Sun, 1/23/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 7:57 PM Hello Anthony, My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. Are these titles meaningful? Absolutely not. Awakening got to arise from inside of us and not from words I posted. All we have to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking. My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to. In China, we call that Chan. Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or structure. In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism. Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to state so. We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org/ On 1/23/2011 3:41 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Is your teacher higher than Sakyamuni? At least one 'person' claims so. Mr Li Hongzhi, leader of Falun Gong, is now in the USA. He may knock on your door any moment, and teach you something better than Chan/ Anthony --- On *Sun, 23/1/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /chan.j...@gmail.com http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com/* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 chan.j...@gmail.com http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.j...@gmail.com Subject: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: zenliv...@yahoogroups.com http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=zenliv...@yahoogroups.com, Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com http://us.mc1217.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, chan-socal-engl...@googlegroups.com
Re: [Zen] Mindfulness meditation training changes brain structure in 8 weeks
Bill, what 'consciousness'? --ED Related phrases: stream of consciousness http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:stream+of+consciousnessdef\ l=ensa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CAQQowMoAAself consciousness http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:self+consciousnessdefl=en\ sa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CAUQowMoAQfalse consciousness http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:false+consciousnessdefl=en\ sa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CAYQowMoAgclass consciousness http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:class+consciousnessdefl=en\ sa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CAcQowMoAwloss of consciousness http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:loss+of+consciousnessdefl=\ ensa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CAgQowMoBAaccess consciousness http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:access+consciousnessdefl=e\ nsa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CAkQowMoBQblack consciousness movement http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:black+consciousness+movemen\ tdefl=ensa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CAoQowMoBgglobal consciousness project http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:global+consciousness+projec\ tdefl=ensa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CAsQowMoBwblack consciousness http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:black+consciousnessdefl=en\ sa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CAwQowMoCAcollective consciousness society http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define:collective+consciousness+so\ cietydefl=ensa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CA0QowMoCQ Definitions of consciousness on the Web: * an alert cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation; he lost consciousness * awareness: having knowledge of; he had no awareness of his mistakes; his sudden consciousness of the problem he faced; their intelligence and general knowingness was impressive wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn http://www.google.com/url?q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%\ 3Fs%3Dconsciousnesssa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CBIQpAMoAAusg=A\ FQjCNFJ_9zlQMSoE-byhgbHMeq4CQCwJw * Consciousness is subjective experience or awareness or wakefulness or the executive control system of the mind.Farthing, 1992 It is an umbrella term that may refer to a variety of mental phenomena. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness\ sa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CBMQpAMoAQusg=AFQjCNHGJlNHb6RYnfbzh\ Y1qk8bRQwTx7A * Consciousness is the fourth full-length album by post-grunge band Smile Empty Soul. The album was released on August 25, 2009. Don't Ever Leave was chosen as the first single off the album. It was also revealed that the band will be shooting a video for the song. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_(album) http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_\ (album)sa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CBQQpAMoAgusg=AFQjCNG9h0JnW\ ujKlBzLtsMV7PFZxZH5NQ * VijñÄna (Sanskrit; Devanagari: विà¤à¥à¤à¤¾à¤¨) or viññÄa (PÄli; Devanagari: विà¤à¥à¤à¤¾à¤£) is translated as consciousness or life force or simply mind.See, for instance, Rhys Davids Stede (1921-25), p. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_(Buddhism) http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_\ (Buddhism)sa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CBUQpAMoAwusg=AFQjCNHm6_\ GMZai7PnvTjF9SsrjjzciVAw * Strong AI is artificial intelligence that matches or exceeds human intelligence the intelligence of a machine that can successfully perform any intellectual task that a human being can. or see where he defines strong AI as machine intelligence with the full range of human intelligence. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_(artificial) http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_\ (artificial)sa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CBYQpAMoBAusg=AFQjCNG8\ qkrYdw0XXFnv9dhPgi87TNCnaw * The state of being conscious or aware; awareness en.wiktionary.org/wiki/consciousness http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/consciousness\ sa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CBcQpAMoBQusg=AFQjCNGoTRaQ3W_7aUvr\ DXb46AgO8CJrpQ * conscious - intentionally conceived; a conscious effort to speak more slowly; a conscious policy * conscious - knowing and perceiving; having awareness of surroundings and sensations and thoughts; remained conscious during the operation; conscious of his faults; became conscious that he was being followed wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn http://www.google.com/url?q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%\ 3Fs%3Dconscioussa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CBgQpAMoBgusg=AFQjC\ NE8iEi-e5saVxtKcuhsYmIn0io4Vg * consciously - with awareness; she consciously played with the idea of inviting them wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn http://www.google.com/url?q=http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%\ 3Fs%3Dconsciouslysa=Xei=bnQ-TY3YIZL4swOpvKHsBAved=0CBkQpAMoBwusg=AFQ\ jCNFiMnyjqwbwQIsNg80yeh23SZdlIg
Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist?
Deborah and JMJM, I'll insert my comments about what I was taught in my Japanese Zen Buddhist training: --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ chan.jmjm@... wrote: Hi Deborah, Thank you for the question. I don't know Zen Buddhism enough to compare in detail. In words, I seem to sense that Chan and Zen are rather similar. The difference I noticed could be in the practice, such as some of the following: Chan sit with eyes fully closed. Zen with half open. Chan does not do walking. There is walking Zen. Chan sit 45 to 60 minutes. Zen seems to be around 30 minutes. Chan sit with tongue curled. There is no such mention in Zen. I was taught to arch my tongue slightly so that it touches the roof of my mouth, and create a slight vacuum in my mouth to keep it there. Chan sit flat on floor. Zen uses cushions. Chan demand a minimum of half lotus. Not sure about Zen. I was taught any position is okay as long as it thrusts your hips forward and keeps your back straight to free up your abdomen to promote belly-breathing, and is reasonable comfortable. Japanese do have a kneeling position that they teach sometimes using a little stool to kind of half-sit on. Chan sit to focus on 10 chakras and 3 chi channels. Not sure about Zen. I was taught to focus my awareness on my 'hara', a spot on your belly about 3-finger widths below your navel. Chan emphasizes enlightenment in this life time. Not sure about Zen. I wouldn't say Zen 'emphasizes' enlightenment in this lifetime, but it certainly acknowledges that as a possibility. On the other hand, the Chan that I practice, may not be the Chan other Chinese lineage practice. Yet I would emphasize, that everyone of us, who is practicing, is a blessed one, no matter which path we are on. Yet, the path that we are on are driven by our own karma. I was taught something pretty similar, but I now recognize the concept of karma to be illusory. But that's just me - not Zen Buddhism proper. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 1/24/2011 7:59 PM, Deborah Mingins wrote: JMJM- can you tell us how Chan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism are different.thanksDeborah taomtnsage1@... mailto:taomtnsage1@... *From:* Deborah Mingins taomtnsage1@... *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Mon, January 24, 2011 3:58:42 PM *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To JMJM- You say that true practice begins after awakening. What is this true practice in Chan ie not Chan Buddhism .taomtnsage1@... mailto:.taomtnsage1@... *From:* Brett Corbin brettalancorbin@... *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sun, January 23, 2011 11:41:00 PM *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? I like some of the statements in this post. For me, I believe the truth is inside us all. I feel the reason so many miss the truth is due to the following of others interpretation of the truth rather then finding the truth within them selves. I hear a lot of people saying, my teacher said this, and my teacher said that, or a book said this or that, or Buddha said this or Jesus said that. I believe that is why there is so much division in religions and belief systems. I feel if people listened to the truth that is already in them, and not so much to teaching of so called, enlighten ones, there would be why more unity in this world. Brett http://www.pbase.com/brett1963 --- On *Sun, 1/23/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ /chan.jmjm@.../* wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺å¦ç²¾æ chan.jmjm@... Subject: Re: [Zen] Is Chan Buddhist? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 7:57 PM Hello Anthony, My Teacher, enlightened Chan Master WuJue MiaoTian is the 85th Patriarch since Shakyamuni, 58th since BodhiDharma and 48th of LinJie. I am the Head Teacher of the 86th generations. Are these titles meaningful? Absolutely not. Awakening got to arise from inside of us and not from words I posted. All we have to do is to shut up, sit down and stop thinking. My Teacher is enlightened to the same universal truth, which Shakyamuni is enlightened to, which he also teaches all of us to be enlightened to. In China, we call that Chan. Chan has been in China far longer than Shakymuni. It was so without organization or structure. In other words, all of us can be enlightened to the same universal truth of Chan, with or without a journey through Buddhism. Bill's Zen is a very clear path to the same truth, as he has continuously to state so. We all can, as long as we sit down, shut up and stop thinking. :-) Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/ http://www.heartchan.org/ On
