[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Mike, I disagree that Reality can only be found/known in human nature. First of all that would mean that only humans can find/know reality which I believe is false. Also I believe it is Human Nature that is the source of delusion, and I don't consider delusion is reality. I believe it is through Buddha Nature that we can find/experience (not 'know') reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I agree with this. Also, Reality can only be found/known in human nature.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar, I probably am much more proficient in math than you think, but I don't understand the relevance of your example below. For example I understand you can determine the shape of a space from inside that space, but I fail to see how that could prove there is something outside of that space. Can you? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, I understand what you are saying but you are wrong. For example it is possible to determine the shape of a space from inside that space by measuring what the angles of triangles add up to. You don't have to be outside of your experience to understand there is something else outside it. I don't know whether you know enough math for this to make sense to you. Maybe Joe or Mike can explain it... Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. That is the only reality that either of us have available to us. All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizations; in other words delusions. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights.. i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see  we hear we touch we smell we taste...  one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...  one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?... i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect...  then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others  and then there is a consensus merle  Merle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle àMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive.
RE: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Bill!,br/br/I'm probably using human nature in a different way than you. My meaning is more specifically 'body-mind': that reality can only be known sensorially.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar,br/br/Won't be my job. In high school I never got passed 'sums'. Still have a maths phobia.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, Yet again Edgar misinterprets and misrepresents what I have consistently said. His count is only 1 off this time, but it's an important 1... I do NOT believe only I exist, and you and Edgar and everyone else are delusions. I believe I and you and Edgar and everyone else are delusions. I hope you appreciate the difference... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Merle, You don't get the depths of Bill's delusions. Bill truly believes only HE exists and you and I are delusions, figments of HIS imagination. This solipsistic delusion is the height of arrogance and megalomania.. Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:58 PM, Merle Lester wrote: i must agree with edgar here.. i was only thinking this ...this very morning... we all perceive things differently... the reality is out there as reality surely bill... we need a consensus so we can function as a society ... merle Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights.. i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see  we hear we touch we smell we taste...  one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...  one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?... i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect...  then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others  and then there is a consensus merle  Merle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle àMerle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to zen it's fair game as far as I'm concerned. What this article is talking about is what Buddhism calls 'suffering'. Western medicine tries to alleviate it by prescribing medications. Most religions try to alleviate it by prescribing faith in God. Art, music, work, activities of all sorts, etc.. help alleviate it by having you concentrate on something else. Zen IMO tries to alleviate it by helping you experience these are delusive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâài thought this was a good article as to what bill talks about..illusions... hence zen appropriate..correct me if i am incorrect...bill... merle Worried Sick Expectations can make you ill. Fear can make you fragile. Understanding the
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Chris, I do agree with you but take no offense. I don't think Edgar is purposely misquoting what I say. I think he really believes that's what I say. To borrow some lyrics from THE BOXER, an old Simon and Garfunkle song, I think sometimes Edgar hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I could quote some old story about the red bearded one, but I'll wager he partially agrees with me when it's his day again. Anyway, aside from my whining about your writing, do you actually believe Bill is a solopsist? I have never read him say that reality isn't, merely that it's chaos, with no internal order outside of Just This. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 15, 2013 9:28 AM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Chris, Yes, almost as bad as you speaking for him! :-) Edgar On Jul 15, 2013, at 11:43 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Bill's never said this, and I personally find falsely attributing things to people to be about par socially with calling them names. He says no one exists, there is no Bill and no Chris, just experiencing. All supppsedly separate beings are incorrect perceptions, there is no separation possible. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 15, 2013 6:16 AM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Merle, You don't get the depths of Bill's delusions. Bill truly believes only HE exists and you and I are delusions, figments of HIS imagination. This solipsistic delusion is the height of arrogance and megalomania.. Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:58 PM, Merle Lester wrote: i must agree with edgar here.. i was only thinking this ...this very morning... we all perceive things differently... the reality is out there as reality surely bill... we need a consensus so we can function as a society ... merle Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: à so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the scheme of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for instance traffic lights..à i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the only real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see à we hear we touch we smell we taste...à à one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...à à one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?...à i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understanding the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence an intellect... à then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communicate that reality to others à and then there is a consensus merle à Merle, IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sensory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). That's it. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâà bill..thank you for your clarification...so what is NOT an illusion bill?...and what is real in your world?...merle Ãâà Merle, Sure...as long as you tie it back to
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Mike, Yes! That's what I just call 'sentient beings'. Sentient beings have 'body-mind', but I'd have to qualify the word 'mind' in that phrase to mean 'Big Mind' or Buddha Nature. The 'little mind' is the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I'm probably using human nature in a different way than you. My meaning is more specifically 'body-mind': that reality can only be known sensorially.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
bill...you have a problem with human nature?... merle Mike, I disagree that Reality can only be found/known in human nature. First of all that would mean that only humans can find/know reality which I believe is false. Also I believe it is Human Nature that is the source of delusion, and I don't consider delusion is reality. I believe it is through Buddha Nature that we can find/experience (not 'know') reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I agree with this. Also, Reality can only be found/known in human nature.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
i thought we were all buddhas...merle Mike, Yes! That's what I just call 'sentient beings'. Sentient beings have 'body-mind', but I'd have to qualify the word 'mind' in that phrase to mean 'Big Mind' or Buddha Nature. The 'little mind' is the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I'm probably using human nature in a different way than you. My meaning is more specifically 'body-mind': that reality can only be known sensorially.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, No, I don't have a problem with Human Nature. I don't have a problem with delusions because I see them as delusive - most of the time. My zen practice is to fully integrate Buddha Nature and Human Nature (delusions)so Human Nature does not obscure or block-out awareness of Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...you have a problem with human nature?... merle  Mike, I disagree that Reality can only be found/known in human nature. First of all that would mean that only humans can find/know reality which I believe is false. Also I believe it is Human Nature that is the source of delusion, and I don't consider delusion is reality. I believe it is through Buddha Nature that we can find/experience (not 'know') reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!,br/br/I agree with this. Also, Reality can only be found/known in human nature.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Samadhi
You will fall into a state of complete unknowing, perplexity, and questioning. Those who have done much study will even come to forget what they had previously learned. But this is not a final or lasting state. When you have reached this point you must still proceed further to the state where although you have ears, you do not know how to hear; although you have eyes, you do not know how to see; and although you have a tongue, you do not know how to speak. To reach the place where mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers may entail several years of hard practice. Therefore, it is necessary to cast aside all other concerns and train yourself to focus the entirety of your attention on the tasteless hwadu* alone. ~ Kusan Sunim (1909-1983) *'hwadu is roughly the Korean Zen equivelent of the Japanese Zen 'koan'. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Bill, Yes, you are correct that my example does NOT establish anything external to the space. However it is 100% self-evident that your view that I am a figment of your imagination is 100% wrong. Why? Because here I am sitting here on the other side of the world whether you or anyone else is alive or dead doing things you have no idea whether I'm doing or not. So if anything it's YOU that is figment of MY imagination. So because we can both say this about the other it is clear that there is an external reality common to both our experience, and it is clear that external reality has a logical structure that accommodates both our experiences... This is incontrovertible reality and thus it is Zen... Edgar On Jul 16, 2013, at 3:15 AM, Bill! wrote: --J0Wn7g-Kgwnbh53pQHyl91Q8Xzhg-mgC2a929rM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edgar, I probably am much more proficient in math than you think, but I don't unde= rstand the relevance of your example below. For example I understand you can determine the shape of a space from inside= that space, but I fail to see how that could prove there is something outs= ide of that space. Can you? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, =20 I understand what you are saying but you are wrong. For example it is pos= sible to determine the shape of a space from inside that space by measuring= what the angles of triangles add up to. You don't have to be outside of yo= ur experience to understand there is something else outside it. I don't kno= w whether you know enough math for this to make sense to you. Maybe Joe or = Mike can explain it... =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Edgar, =20 I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. Tha= t is the only reality that either of us have available to us. =20 All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizatio= ns; in other words delusions. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't realit= y because it's different between observers... =20 There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it= differently... =20 But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a= teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Merle, =20 If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You= experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That wh= ich you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. =20 We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called percei= ving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but = it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many beli= eve that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experienc= e. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. =20 And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect= )in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes= them useful. =20 Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our ex= perience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can under= stand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a= delusion (or illusion). =20 I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I = cannot comment on that. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrot= e: =20 =20 =C2 so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the sche= me of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for in= stance traffic lights..=C2=20 =20 i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the on= ly real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see =C2 we hear we tou= ch we smell we taste...=C2=20 =C2 one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...=C2=20 =C2 one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see,= hear, touch, smell and taste... what other experiences are there apart from the sensory?...=C2=20 i'd say they are the starting point not the all end to understand= ing the world... we need our minds to make sense of the world surely?...and hence = an intellect... =C2 then it becomes real real real... and one is able to communic= ate that reality to others =C2 and then there is a consensus =20 merle =20 =C2=20 Merle, =20 IMO only experience is real, and by that 'experience' I mean sens= ory experience (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste). =20 That's it. That's all. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
So you know enough of his history to know he is not just writing stuff he has read? You may find his language inaccurate or unreflective of what his intent is, but I, again a sensitive soul, find your use of the comic book zen trope to be a sign of attributing ill will. Whatever, the question you ask is if your report of Bill's statement that I am not real offends me. My answer is to 'Chris' is not real. Of course that is not offensive! I have no real self, never have, couldn't possibly have one. Nor could Bill nor any of the waves typing into computers be cut off from one another. We are all in this together. Joe, Mike, dervish, Merle, you, the other ED, we are just transitory waves that can be sketched for a moment but are all temporary configurations of life, flowing thru, flowing onward, just flowing so interestingly. If you are asking some rarified question about are we 'real' as opposed to 'unreal', or some such proposition I can't quite put together, then I am afraid you are out of my depth. Conveniently labeled for your enjoyment, --Chris 301-270-6524
Re: [Zen] Re: Experience
Attentive witnessing does not require thought - it is an attempt to capture
mere presence, bare awareness, that sort of thing.
I'm still a bit sceptical that all these words aren't just trying to draw
lines in the dust :)
Thanks,
--Chris
ch...@austin-lane.net
+1-301-270-6524
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:
Chris,
I think perceptions certainly could be seen as 'doing', if you as I do
consider 'thinking' as doing something. So to follow it there is no doing
there would be no perceptions.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'attentive witnessing' but if it
involves thinking it would not be monisitc experience. For example if it
involves it involves a subject/relationship/object scenario
(dualism/pluralism) such as a witness/observing/something then it would not
be a monistic experience and would in my book involve thinking and
perceiving.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote:
Arg, this just shows to me the futility of words. I was all fine but
then
your clarification of precedes etc. leaves me all wanting to argue.
Oh well. How about this for another question:
Is perception something that is related to doing? If no doing is
present, can perception be present? Does mere attentive witnessing
already
cross your line of experience?
Thanks,
--Chris
chris@...
+1-301-270-6524
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote:
Chris,
I'm not locked-in to the preceding aspect. As I've said on this
thread
I am not so concerned with the 'how' all this happens. I just know it
happens. Monistic experience and pluralistic perceptions may indeed
take
place at the same time. In fact that does make some sense because
these
perceptions many times obscure monistic experience.
I do believe monistic experience can occur without the arising of
perception (samadhi/shikantaza); and perceptions (delusions) can arise
that
completely obscure monistic experience ('normal' human condition); and
I do
believe that even when perceptions arise monistic experience (Buddha
Nature) is still present even though obscured.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote:
I'm with you 100% except for preceding. To me it seems to be
different
categories - what you are calling experiencing is not a step in the
process. I can't say what I think it is.
Anyways, thanks for your patience.
And Edgar, there's no self, never has, regardless of whatever level
of
zen
training one has undertaken. It's all just computational substrate,
right?
You can't cut bits out from the whole.
--Chris
Thanks,
--Chris
chris@
+1-301-270-6524
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
Chris,
Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's
functions
which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me
on
this
outside of this thread.
The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and
fundamental
functions of the brain of a sentient being. In zen literature it
has
been
called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your
Mother
Was
Born'. I am saying experience precedes the processing of any
experience by
the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as
'Small
Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'. When the intellect arises it creates the
delusion
of dualism/pluralism. This is the key. The delusion of a
separate,
unique
'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is
quickly
followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls
'forms'
and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' -
phenomena).
I don't see experience as slightly at an angle to... the arising
of
duality and perception, but just preceding it. Experience is
not-beginning and not-ending, sometimes referred to as 'in the
moment' or
'only now'. I do associate experience with what you call the
wonder
of
presence which I think I would just call 'awareness' which is
monisitic -
as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as
'awakening'
or 'enlightenment'. What you 'awaken' to is the realization that
perceptions are delusions and only experience is real.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@
wrote:
Bill,
One more question on this:
Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in
the
brains
normal functioning
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Edgar, Thanks for the confirmation about my reasoning considering the space. You are absolutely correct in your first sentence saying it is 100% self-evident that my statement that your existence as something separate and completely apart from Merle or Mike or Chris or me. But the key word in that statement is SELF. It is SELF-evident. It is evident to YOUR SELF (your delusion of self and your delusion of Merle's self and my self) that we are all separate. It is SELF-evident, yes. It is not however evident, and in fact when you realize Buddha Nature you experience that this is not indeed the case. So, in your next statement: Why? Because here I am sitting here on the other side of the world whether you or anyone else is alive or dead doing things you have no idea whether I'm doing or not the only think you can really say from experience is Why? Because I am sitting here. Everything else in that statement is at best speculation and in reality is delusive. Yes, you can say that I am only a 'figment of your imagination'. I would leave out the prejudicial word only and change 'figment of imagination' to 'perception' or even 'delusion' - but yes, I agree. 'We' (our mutual but individual delusion of a separate self) do perceive many thing the same way. That's our Human Nature at work. It doesn't point to any logical structure 'out there', but point to a commonality of logic which is big part of Human Nature, and the common human predilection to project that logic into our experiences to create perceptions. Reality is indeed incontrovertible because it is entirely experiential and not something subject to logic or emotions or other whims of Human Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, you are correct that my example does NOT establish anything external to the space. However it is 100% self-evident that your view that I am a figment of your imagination is 100% wrong. Why? Because here I am sitting here on the other side of the world whether you or anyone else is alive or dead doing things you have no idea whether I'm doing or not. So if anything it's YOU that is figment of MY imagination. So because we can both say this about the other it is clear that there is an external reality common to both our experience, and it is clear that external reality has a logical structure that accommodates both our experiences... This is incontrovertible reality and thus it is Zen... Edgar On Jul 16, 2013, at 3:15 AM, Bill! wrote: --J0Wn7g-Kgwnbh53pQHyl91Q8Xzhg-mgC2a929rM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edgar, I probably am much more proficient in math than you think, but I don't unde= rstand the relevance of your example below. For example I understand you can determine the shape of a space from inside= that space, but I fail to see how that could prove there is something outs= ide of that space. Can you? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 I understand what you are saying but you are wrong. For example it is pos= sible to determine the shape of a space from inside that space by measuring= what the angles of triangles add up to. You don't have to be outside of yo= ur experience to understand there is something else outside it. I don't kno= w whether you know enough math for this to make sense to you. Maybe Joe or = Mike can explain it... =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Edgar, =20 I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. Tha= t is the only reality that either of us have available to us. =20 All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizatio= ns; in other words delusions. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't realit= y because it's different between observers... =20 There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it= differently... =20 But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a= teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Merle, =20 If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You= experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That wh= ich you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. =20 We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called percei= ving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but = it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many beli= eve that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, Yes, dreams and predictions are delusions especially when they are perceived to have come true. And for the 437th time...only experience (sensual) is real IMO. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..so what about dreams and predictions ? dreams and predictions can come true ... i had a dream..martin luther king jr  do they fall in your notion of illusions and delusions?  is anything real for you?  merle Bill, Yes, you are correct that my example does NOT establish anything external to the space. However it is 100% self-evident that your view that I am a figment of your imagination is 100% wrong. Why? Because here I am sitting here on the other side of the world whether you or anyone else is alive or dead doing things you have no idea whether I'm doing or not. So if anything it's YOU that is figment of MY imagination. So because we can both say this about the other it is clear that there is an external reality common to both our experience, and it is clear that external reality has a logical structure that accommodates both our experiences... This is incontrovertible reality and thus it is Zen... Edgar On Jul 16, 2013, at 3:15 AM, Bill! wrote: --J0Wn7g-Kgwnbh53pQHyl91Q8Xzhg-mgC2a929rM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Edgar, I probably am much more proficient in math than you think, but I don't unde= rstand the relevance of your example below. For example I understand you can determine the shape of a space from inside= that space, but I fail to see how that could prove there is something outs= ide of that space. Can you? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 I understand what you are saying but you are wrong. For example it is pos= sible to determine the shape of a space from inside that space by measuring= what the angles of triangles add up to. You don't have to be outside of yo= ur experience to understand there is something else outside it. I don't kno= w whether you know enough math for this to make sense to you. Maybe Joe or = Mike can explain it... =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:09 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Edgar, =20 I experience what I experience. You experience what you experience. Tha= t is the only reality that either of us have available to us. =20 All the rest that you claim to exist is speculation, intellectualizatio= ns; in other words delusions. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, =20 Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't realit= y because it's different between observers... =20 There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it= differently... =20 But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a= teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? =20 Edgar =20 =20 =20 On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: =20 Merle, =20 If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You= experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That wh= ich you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. =20 We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called percei= ving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but = it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many beli= eve that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experienc= e. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. =20 And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect= )in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes= them useful. =20 Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our ex= perience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can under= stand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a= delusion (or illusion). =20 I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I = cannot comment on that. =20 ...Bill! =20 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrot= e: =20 =20 =C2 so if one was colour blind...how would that fit into the sche= me of things? ..it would not be the correct interpretation of the world..for in= stance traffic lights..=C2=20 =20 i do not believe one can totally trust our senses as being the on= ly real experience...what ever you mean by real...we see =C2 we hear we tou= ch we smell we taste...=C2=20 =C2 one interpret this with our mind... otherwise this world would make no sense what so ever...=C2=20 =C2 one must in order to survive make meaning out of what we see,= hear, touch,
[Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, Do you think your perception of 'self' as something distinct and different from everything else is real? If you do, then you are justified in thinking my statement is crazy. If you don't, then I am just agreeing with you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  really..how quaint..bill has decided we are all imaginary then?... merle  Chris, I think Bill is feeding us all (including himself) a line he doesn't actually believe (and certainly doesn't experience) because he's somehow gotten it into his head that it's proper Zen speak when all Zen masters back to Buddha and the Vedic philosophers before them have all affirmed the existence of an external world of forms that behaves causally but is empty of self-substance. . Likely reading too many comic books on the subject... He just admitted again he doesn't believe you or I or anyone else on this group is real. That makes him a solipsist because we are all figments of HIS imagination. How does that make YOU feel? Are you real or are you not? Edgar On Jul 16, 2013, at 10:40 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:  So, Edgar, do you really believe Bill is a solopsist? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 16, 2013 12:41 AM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, I do agree with you but take no offense. I don't think Edgar is purposely misquoting what I say.  I think he really believes that's what I say. To borrow some lyrics from THE BOXER, an old Simon and Garfunkle song, I think sometimes Edgar hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: I could quote some old story about the red bearded one, but I'll wager he partially agrees with me when it's his day again. Anyway, aside from my whining about your writing, do you actually believe Bill is a solopsist?  I have never read him say that reality isn't,  merely that it's chaos, with no internal order outside of Just This. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524  On Jul 15, 2013 9:28 AM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Chris, Yes, almost as bad as you speaking for him! :-) Edgar On Jul 15, 2013, at 11:43 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Bill's never said this, and I personally find falsely attributing things to people to be about par socially with calling them names. He says no one exists, there is no Bill and no Chris, just experiencing. All supppsedly separate beings are incorrect perceptions,  there is no separation possible. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524  On Jul 15, 2013 6:16 AM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Merle, You don't get the depths of Bill's delusions. Bill truly believes only HE exists and you and I are delusions, figments of HIS imagination. This solipsistic delusion is the height of arrogance and megalomania.. Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:58 PM, Merle Lester wrote:  i must agree with edgar here.. i was only thinking this ...this very morning... we all  perceive things differently... the reality is out there as reality surely bill...  we need a consensus so we can function as a society ... merle Bill, Yes, you experience what you experience whatever. But it isn't reality because it's different between observers... There is an actual external reality that each observer experiences it differently... But why O why am I wasting my time trying to teach you the obvious, a teaching that every Zen master from Buddha onward agrees with me on? Edgar On Jul 14, 2013, at 8:14 PM, Bill! wrote: Merle, If you are color-blind or totally blind it makes no difference. You experience what you experience. That which you experience is real. That which you perceive (think about, intellectualize) is not. We do interpret our experiences with our mind. That's called perceiving. And just as you say we interpret them to make sense out of them, but it's WE, our human intellect, that 'makes the sense'. It's not as many believe that our intellect 'discovers' the sense which is inherent in experience. We create it and we superimpose it, force-fit it, onto our experience. And yes, you're correct again that we perceive (apply our intellect)in order to survive. That doesn't make our perceptions real, it only makes them useful. Our intellect does not make things real. Our intellect takes our experience of reality and forces it into a little logical box so we can understand it. Our intellect distorts reality. That's called perception and is a delusion (or illusion). I'm not sure what you mean by 'and then there is a consensus' so I cannot comment on that. ...Bill! --- In
[Zen] Zentigration
The marionette operator is not the puppet itself, but what good is a guy hidden in the rafters above the stage with nothing attached to his strings? The shorter the strings between the puppet and the operator, the better that the puppet reflects the operator's intent. The strings have been shortened so much, that they are no longer there. The marionette act has become a ventriloquism show; the operator is no longer hidden, and manipulates the puppet by direct contact, no strings attached! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Worried Sick..illusions
Merle, The following snippets are from your response to Bill!, but I'm going to employ license to reply to them myself :) You: why are you so adverse to the intellect...?... it is a tool us humans need to survive Me: To survive means to live to any point in the future. What is there right NOW? You: we all know that things can get distorted through thoughts. Me: Things and thoughts are already distortions. It is actually just one thing-thought-thing-thought cycle. Once things, already thoughts; once thoughts, already things, and vice-double-reverse-infinity-times-a-zillion-versa. You:we experience and then we think actually this process is simultaneous... Me: Of course it seems simultaneous, because when we THINK about when experience happens, we really are thinking about when our thought of experience happens. Experience just happens. It is happeningnessousociteitanity. Like right now. Words fail; I can't meditate for you! Hopefully helpful, and helpfully hopeful, The PeeBSter. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] heavenly heaven
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