Attentive witnessing does not require thought - it is an attempt to capture mere presence, bare awareness, that sort of thing.
I'm still a bit sceptical that all these words aren't just trying to draw lines in the dust :) Thanks, --Chris [email protected] +1-301-270-6524 On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Bill! <[email protected]> wrote: > Chris, > > I think perceptions certainly could be seen as 'doing', if you as I do > consider 'thinking' as doing something. So to follow it there is no doing > there would be no perceptions. > > I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'attentive witnessing' but if it > involves thinking it would not be monisitc experience. For example if it > involves it involves a subject/relationship/object scenario > (dualism/pluralism) such as a witness/observing/something then it would not > be a monistic experience and would in my book involve thinking and > perceiving. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote: > > > > Arg, this just shows to me the futility of words. I was all fine but > then > > your clarification of precedes etc. leaves me all wanting to argue. > > > > Oh well. How about this for another question: > > > > Is perception something that is related to "doing"? If no doing is > > present, can perception be present? Does mere attentive witnessing > already > > cross your line of experience? > > > > Thanks, > > > > --Chris > > chris@... > > +1-301-270-6524 > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > I'm not locked-in to the "preceding" aspect. As I've said on this > thread > > > I am not so concerned with the 'how' all this happens. I just know it > > > happens. Monistic experience and pluralistic perceptions may indeed > take > > > place at the same time. In fact that does make some sense because > these > > > perceptions many times obscure monistic experience. > > > > > > I do believe monistic experience can occur without the arising of > > > perception (samadhi/shikantaza); and perceptions (delusions) can arise > that > > > completely obscure monistic experience ('normal' human condition); and > I do > > > believe that even when perceptions arise monistic experience (Buddha > > > Nature) is still present even though obscured. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm with you 100% except for "preceding." To me it seems to be > different > > > > categories - what you are calling experiencing is not a step in the > > > > process. I can't say what I think it is. > > > > > > > > Anyways, thanks for your patience. > > > > > > > > And Edgar, there's no self, never has, regardless of whatever level > of > > > zen > > > > training one has undertaken. It's all just computational substrate, > > > right? > > > > You can't cut bits out from the whole. > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > chris@ > > > > +1-301-270-6524 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's > > > functions > > > > > which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me > on > > > this > > > > > outside of this thread. > > > > > > > > > > The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and > fundamental > > > > > functions of the brain of a sentient being. In zen literature it > has > > > been > > > > > called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your > Mother > > > Was > > > > > Born'. I am saying experience precedes the processing of any > > > experience by > > > > > the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as > > > 'Small > > > > > Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'. When the intellect arises it creates the > > > delusion > > > > > of dualism/pluralism. This is the key. The delusion of a > separate, > > > unique > > > > > 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is > > > quickly > > > > > followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls > > > 'forms' > > > > > and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' - > phenomena). > > > > > > > > > > I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising > of > > > > > duality and perception, but just preceding it. Experience is > > > > > "not-beginning and not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the > > > moment' or > > > > > 'only now'. I do associate experience with what you call "the > wonder > > > of > > > > > presence" which I think I would just call 'awareness' which is > > > monisitic - > > > > > as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is dualistic. > > > > > > > > > > Perceiving only is the normal human condition. > > > > > > > > > > Experiencing only is Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as > > > 'awakening' > > > > > or 'enlightenment'. What you 'awaken' to is the realization that > > > > > perceptions are delusions and only experience is real. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > One more question on this: > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in > the > > > > > brains > > > > > > normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever > way > > > that > > > > > > the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the > work of > > > > > > transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation? > Something > > > of > > > > > > which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending? > > > Something to > > > > > > akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence? > This > > > very > > > > > > moment. That sort of thing. Right here, right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the > subjective > > > side > > > > > > of the brains functioning - something which is not from an > eternal > > > > > > perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the > > > body/mind > > > > > > functioning but a description of the way the human notices the > > > absolute > > > > > > along side the perception? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read > or > > > are > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or > are > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >
