Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
One alternative to a mesh network is of course peer to peer encryption. All browsers nowadays can persist data on their database. Nacl and openpgp have been ported on JavaScript. All we need then is an asynchronous delivery system that sends json to the browser. That is , exactly like email except that the updates are handled by the javascript application. We could create an api for any developer to create new JavaScript applications. Each such application would be hosted in a subdomain of the user`s preferred delivery provider and be given a unique delivery address. We could then have encrypted social network sites in a matter of weeks. On Jan 10, 2014 8:59 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't tried using it myself yet, but I believe one difference is wifi direct has a programmatic API, which is not as easily exposed for normal wifi. On Jan 10, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: From what I know, setting up and maintaining a persistent WiFi Direct connection is a painful user experience. Otherwise, it gives exactly the same results as enabling the hotspot on one phone and then using standard WiFi. (Unless i'm mistaken.) On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:05 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Plus, I tested my nexus 5 and 7 with Super Beam app. Super Beam shares files and folders using WiFi Direct. My nexus devices successfully shared files via WiFi Direct. WiFi Direct is confirmed to be working at least on nexus devices. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: In the short term that may be the only solution that's workable without root access on at least some of the phones. I think the full benefits of EdgeNet won't be realized until arbitrary phones can serve as routers or data mules without the user knowing or caring, though. Right. I still think WiFi Direct has a place in the solution, when it's available. According to Wikipedia, only one phone of a group has to support WiFi Direct for the entire group to use it. That works precisely like a hotspot afaik (did not actually try that, though). -Pieter ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
something like this? http://twister.net.co (I’m not promoting it, as I couldn’t even compile it on my Mac) On Jan 11, 2014, at 10:36, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: One alternative to a mesh network is of course peer to peer encryption. All browsers nowadays can persist data on their database. Nacl and openpgp have been ported on JavaScript. All we need then is an asynchronous delivery system that sends json to the browser. That is , exactly like email except that the updates are handled by the javascript application. We could create an api for any developer to create new JavaScript applications. Each such application would be hosted in a subdomain of the user`s preferred delivery provider and be given a unique delivery address. We could then have encrypted social network sites in a matter of weeks. On Jan 10, 2014 8:59 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't tried using it myself yet, but I believe one difference is wifi direct has a programmatic API, which is not as easily exposed for normal wifi. On Jan 10, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: From what I know, setting up and maintaining a persistent WiFi Direct connection is a painful user experience. Otherwise, it gives exactly the same results as enabling the hotspot on one phone and then using standard WiFi. (Unless i'm mistaken.) On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:05 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Plus, I tested my nexus 5 and 7 with Super Beam app. Super Beam shares files and folders using WiFi Direct. My nexus devices successfully shared files via WiFi Direct. WiFi Direct is confirmed to be working at least on nexus devices. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: In the short term that may be the only solution that's workable without root access on at least some of the phones. I think the full benefits of EdgeNet won't be realized until arbitrary phones can serve as routers or data mules without the user knowing or caring, though. Right. I still think WiFi Direct has a place in the solution, when it's available. According to Wikipedia, only one phone of a group has to support WiFi Direct for the entire group to use it. That works precisely like a hotspot afaik (did not actually try that, though). -Pieter ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
No need for decentralized authentication with bitcoin(?) We have pgp certificates. No need for decentralized database. All data are stored on the browser. No need to build an app ourselves. We provide an api so that others can make any site they want. The only requirement is that the same origin policy is respected, that the app only talks to the delivery provider. On Jan 11, 2014 1:08 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues bruno.rodrig...@litux.org wrote: something like this? http://twister.net.co (I’m not promoting it, as I couldn’t even compile it on my Mac) On Jan 11, 2014, at 10:36, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: One alternative to a mesh network is of course peer to peer encryption. All browsers nowadays can persist data on their database. Nacl and openpgp have been ported on JavaScript. All we need then is an asynchronous delivery system that sends json to the browser. That is , exactly like email except that the updates are handled by the javascript application. We could create an api for any developer to create new JavaScript applications. Each such application would be hosted in a subdomain of the user`s preferred delivery provider and be given a unique delivery address. We could then have encrypted social network sites in a matter of weeks. On Jan 10, 2014 8:59 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't tried using it myself yet, but I believe one difference is wifi direct has a programmatic API, which is not as easily exposed for normal wifi. On Jan 10, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: From what I know, setting up and maintaining a persistent WiFi Direct connection is a painful user experience. Otherwise, it gives exactly the same results as enabling the hotspot on one phone and then using standard WiFi. (Unless i'm mistaken.) On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:05 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Plus, I tested my nexus 5 and 7 with Super Beam app. Super Beam shares files and folders using WiFi Direct. My nexus devices successfully shared files via WiFi Direct. WiFi Direct is confirmed to be working at least on nexus devices. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: In the short term that may be the only solution that's workable without root access on at least some of the phones. I think the full benefits of EdgeNet won't be realized until arbitrary phones can serve as routers or data mules without the user knowing or caring, though. Right. I still think WiFi Direct has a place in the solution, when it's available. According to Wikipedia, only one phone of a group has to support WiFi Direct for the entire group to use it. That works precisely like a hotspot afaik (did not actually try that, though). -Pieter ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
I can't imagine how it works or looks. Can you give us a concrete example? On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: One alternative to a mesh network is of course peer to peer encryption. All browsers nowadays can persist data on their database. Nacl and openpgp have been ported on JavaScript. All we need then is an asynchronous delivery system that sends json to the browser. That is , exactly like email except that the updates are handled by the javascript application. We could create an api for any developer to create new JavaScript applications. Each such application would be hosted in a subdomain of the user`s preferred delivery provider and be given a unique delivery address. We could then have encrypted social network sites in a matter of weeks. On Jan 10, 2014 8:59 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't tried using it myself yet, but I believe one difference is wifi direct has a programmatic API, which is not as easily exposed for normal wifi. On Jan 10, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: From what I know, setting up and maintaining a persistent WiFi Direct connection is a painful user experience. Otherwise, it gives exactly the same results as enabling the hotspot on one phone and then using standard WiFi. (Unless i'm mistaken.) On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:05 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Plus, I tested my nexus 5 and 7 with Super Beam app. Super Beam shares files and folders using WiFi Direct. My nexus devices successfully shared files via WiFi Direct. WiFi Direct is confirmed to be working at least on nexus devices. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: In the short term that may be the only solution that's workable without root access on at least some of the phones. I think the full benefits of EdgeNet won't be realized until arbitrary phones can serve as routers or data mules without the user knowing or caring, though. Right. I still think WiFi Direct has a place in the solution, when it's available. According to Wikipedia, only one phone of a group has to support WiFi Direct for the entire group to use it. That works precisely like a hotspot afaik (did not actually try that, though). -Pieter ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Ok, let me try. Problems a) 2 users want to receive data from each other but they cannot stay online all the time. sol: We add a third party in the middle that stores the information so that it will send it to the appropriate user when it goes back online. (durable socket) examples: the email system b) We want to have secure communication. sol: We use encryption. c) We want that data to be used by programs so that they present the data in a beautiful way or to precess the data and give us the result. sol: we need to store data in a format that is used in many applications d) Secure communication in general is possible. In practice, we dont use it because it requires great effort. How can we provide security with zero effort? sol: The Web is the most easy way to send and receive information. Our solution must be used by applications on the Web(social networks etc) e) Can the browser use cryptography and store data permanently? sol: yes. Nacl, openpgp and indexdb d) How can we trust that an app will use encryption and that it wont send data to NSA or add companies? sol: since all applications are in javascript, their code can be inspected. e) Do we need to trust the server? We only need to trust that the javascript code it gives us is secure. We can check the sha1 of the code to check whether it is the one we are supposed to receive. Keep in mind that there exist apps that work offline, they need to be downloaded once.( and verified only once) A simple example: We have 2 servers/delivery providers A.com and B.org. Alice signs up on server A with her public key. Bob signs up on server B with his key. A developer creates an application (that has nice social networking features like uploading pictures and posting articles) Alice asks A to host that application. A gets the application, the javascript code from the developer. It creates a random subdomain r.A.com to host the code. Alice tells Bob of that app, gives him the address of her provider A.com, her public key, a key specific for this app that bob will use to decrypt the data he gets from her. Bob does the same. (first he asks the provider to host that app if it hasn't already) Alice logs into A.com and gives the public key of Bob and the address of his provider(B.com) to A.com so that A.com accepts data from Bob for this specific application. A creates a durable subscription for bob's data for this specific application. So does Bob. Bob decides to use the app to upload a photo and create a post. The data are encrypted on the browser, are sent on his provider which in turn sends them to Alice's provider. Alice after she returns home, logs in her new application. The application retrieves the new data, decrypts them, stores them in the browser database and notifies her that bob has uploaded a new picture. The app shows the picture to Alice in a nice enviroment. She could edit the picture or comment. Alice finds the picture funny and decides to comment. ETC. 2014/1/11 crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com I can't imagine how it works or looks. Can you give us a concrete example? On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: One alternative to a mesh network is of course peer to peer encryption. All browsers nowadays can persist data on their database. Nacl and openpgp have been ported on JavaScript. All we need then is an asynchronous delivery system that sends json to the browser. That is , exactly like email except that the updates are handled by the javascript application. We could create an api for any developer to create new JavaScript applications. Each such application would be hosted in a subdomain of the user`s preferred delivery provider and be given a unique delivery address. We could then have encrypted social network sites in a matter of weeks. On Jan 10, 2014 8:59 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't tried using it myself yet, but I believe one difference is wifi direct has a programmatic API, which is not as easily exposed for normal wifi. On Jan 10, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: From what I know, setting up and maintaining a persistent WiFi Direct connection is a painful user experience. Otherwise, it gives exactly the same results as enabling the hotspot on one phone and then using standard WiFi. (Unless i'm mistaken.) On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:05 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Plus, I tested my nexus 5 and 7 with Super Beam app. Super Beam shares files and folders using WiFi Direct. My nexus devices successfully shared files via WiFi Direct. WiFi Direct is confirmed to be working at least on nexus devices. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: In the short term that may be the only solution that's workable without root access on at least some of
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Is there any real life application that does what you describe? On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, let me try. Problems a) 2 users want to receive data from each other but they cannot stay online all the time. sol: We add a third party in the middle that stores the information so that it will send it to the appropriate user when it goes back online. (durable socket) examples: the email system b) We want to have secure communication. sol: We use encryption. c) We want that data to be used by programs so that they present the data in a beautiful way or to precess the data and give us the result. sol: we need to store data in a format that is used in many applications d) Secure communication in general is possible. In practice, we dont use it because it requires great effort. How can we provide security with zero effort? sol: The Web is the most easy way to send and receive information. Our solution must be used by applications on the Web(social networks etc) e) Can the browser use cryptography and store data permanently? sol: yes. Nacl, openpgp and indexdb d) How can we trust that an app will use encryption and that it wont send data to NSA or add companies? sol: since all applications are in javascript, their code can be inspected. e) Do we need to trust the server? We only need to trust that the javascript code it gives us is secure. We can check the sha1 of the code to check whether it is the one we are supposed to receive. Keep in mind that there exist apps that work offline, they need to be downloaded once.( and verified only once) A simple example: We have 2 servers/delivery providers A.com and B.org. Alice signs up on server A with her public key. Bob signs up on server B with his key. A developer creates an application (that has nice social networking features like uploading pictures and posting articles) Alice asks A to host that application. A gets the application, the javascript code from the developer. It creates a random subdomain r.A.com to host the code. Alice tells Bob of that app, gives him the address of her provider A.com, her public key, a key specific for this app that bob will use to decrypt the data he gets from her. Bob does the same. (first he asks the provider to host that app if it hasn't already) Alice logs into A.com and gives the public key of Bob and the address of his provider(B.com) to A.com so that A.com accepts data from Bob for this specific application. A creates a durable subscription for bob's data for this specific application. So does Bob. Bob decides to use the app to upload a photo and create a post. The data are encrypted on the browser, are sent on his provider which in turn sends them to Alice's provider. Alice after she returns home, logs in her new application. The application retrieves the new data, decrypts them, stores them in the browser database and notifies her that bob has uploaded a new picture. The app shows the picture to Alice in a nice enviroment. She could edit the picture or comment. Alice finds the picture funny and decides to comment. ETC. 2014/1/11 crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com I can't imagine how it works or looks. Can you give us a concrete example? On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: One alternative to a mesh network is of course peer to peer encryption. All browsers nowadays can persist data on their database. Nacl and openpgp have been ported on JavaScript. All we need then is an asynchronous delivery system that sends json to the browser. That is , exactly like email except that the updates are handled by the javascript application. We could create an api for any developer to create new JavaScript applications. Each such application would be hosted in a subdomain of the user`s preferred delivery provider and be given a unique delivery address. We could then have encrypted social network sites in a matter of weeks. On Jan 10, 2014 8:59 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't tried using it myself yet, but I believe one difference is wifi direct has a programmatic API, which is not as easily exposed for normal wifi. On Jan 10, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: From what I know, setting up and maintaining a persistent WiFi Direct connection is a painful user experience. Otherwise, it gives exactly the same results as enabling the hotspot on one phone and then using standard WiFi. (Unless i'm mistaken.) On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:05 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Plus, I tested my nexus 5 and 7 with Super Beam app. Super Beam shares files and folders using WiFi Direct. My nexus devices successfully shared files via WiFi Direct. WiFi Direct is confirmed to be working at least on nexus devices. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Pieter Hintjens
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
If there was, there would be no need to build it. Nobody has done it because a) indexedDB is quite new. b) It doesn't make business sense. You lose the revenue from the ads. c) They haven't thought of the idea of a durable socket. I got that idea from zeromq's guide(I think it has been removed now). The guide used it in case there was a failure and a client or server died. I transformed it to solve the problem of one person being offline. 2014/1/11 crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com Is there any real life application that does what you describe? On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, let me try. Problems a) 2 users want to receive data from each other but they cannot stay online all the time. sol: We add a third party in the middle that stores the information so that it will send it to the appropriate user when it goes back online. (durable socket) examples: the email system b) We want to have secure communication. sol: We use encryption. c) We want that data to be used by programs so that they present the data in a beautiful way or to precess the data and give us the result. sol: we need to store data in a format that is used in many applications d) Secure communication in general is possible. In practice, we dont use it because it requires great effort. How can we provide security with zero effort? sol: The Web is the most easy way to send and receive information. Our solution must be used by applications on the Web(social networks etc) e) Can the browser use cryptography and store data permanently? sol: yes. Nacl, openpgp and indexdb d) How can we trust that an app will use encryption and that it wont send data to NSA or add companies? sol: since all applications are in javascript, their code can be inspected. e) Do we need to trust the server? We only need to trust that the javascript code it gives us is secure. We can check the sha1 of the code to check whether it is the one we are supposed to receive. Keep in mind that there exist apps that work offline, they need to be downloaded once.( and verified only once) A simple example: We have 2 servers/delivery providers A.com and B.org. Alice signs up on server A with her public key. Bob signs up on server B with his key. A developer creates an application (that has nice social networking features like uploading pictures and posting articles) Alice asks A to host that application. A gets the application, the javascript code from the developer. It creates a random subdomain r.A.com to host the code. Alice tells Bob of that app, gives him the address of her provider A.com, her public key, a key specific for this app that bob will use to decrypt the data he gets from her. Bob does the same. (first he asks the provider to host that app if it hasn't already) Alice logs into A.com and gives the public key of Bob and the address of his provider(B.com) to A.com so that A.com accepts data from Bob for this specific application. A creates a durable subscription for bob's data for this specific application. So does Bob. Bob decides to use the app to upload a photo and create a post. The data are encrypted on the browser, are sent on his provider which in turn sends them to Alice's provider. Alice after she returns home, logs in her new application. The application retrieves the new data, decrypts them, stores them in the browser database and notifies her that bob has uploaded a new picture. The app shows the picture to Alice in a nice enviroment. She could edit the picture or comment. Alice finds the picture funny and decides to comment. ETC. 2014/1/11 crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com I can't imagine how it works or looks. Can you give us a concrete example? On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: One alternative to a mesh network is of course peer to peer encryption. All browsers nowadays can persist data on their database. Nacl and openpgp have been ported on JavaScript. All we need then is an asynchronous delivery system that sends json to the browser. That is , exactly like email except that the updates are handled by the javascript application. We could create an api for any developer to create new JavaScript applications. Each such application would be hosted in a subdomain of the user`s preferred delivery provider and be given a unique delivery address. We could then have encrypted social network sites in a matter of weeks. On Jan 10, 2014 8:59 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't tried using it myself yet, but I believe one difference is wifi direct has a programmatic API, which is not as easily exposed for normal wifi. On Jan 10, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: From what I know, setting up and maintaining a persistent WiFi Direct connection is a painful user experience. Otherwise, it gives
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
I'm confused. Is it an application hosted on the internet which communicates with peers on the same WiFi network? Or does it communicate with peers on the internet? Does it use ZeroMQ at all? On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 6:10 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: If there was, there would be no need to build it. Nobody has done it because a) indexedDB is quite new. b) It doesn't make business sense. You lose the revenue from the ads. c) They haven't thought of the idea of a durable socket. I got that idea from zeromq's guide(I think it has been removed now). The guide used it in case there was a failure and a client or server died. I transformed it to solve the problem of one person being offline. 2014/1/11 crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com Is there any real life application that does what you describe? On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, let me try. Problems a) 2 users want to receive data from each other but they cannot stay online all the time. sol: We add a third party in the middle that stores the information so that it will send it to the appropriate user when it goes back online. (durable socket) examples: the email system b) We want to have secure communication. sol: We use encryption. c) We want that data to be used by programs so that they present the data in a beautiful way or to precess the data and give us the result. sol: we need to store data in a format that is used in many applications d) Secure communication in general is possible. In practice, we dont use it because it requires great effort. How can we provide security with zero effort? sol: The Web is the most easy way to send and receive information. Our solution must be used by applications on the Web(social networks etc) e) Can the browser use cryptography and store data permanently? sol: yes. Nacl, openpgp and indexdb d) How can we trust that an app will use encryption and that it wont send data to NSA or add companies? sol: since all applications are in javascript, their code can be inspected. e) Do we need to trust the server? We only need to trust that the javascript code it gives us is secure. We can check the sha1 of the code to check whether it is the one we are supposed to receive. Keep in mind that there exist apps that work offline, they need to be downloaded once.( and verified only once) A simple example: We have 2 servers/delivery providers A.com and B.org. Alice signs up on server A with her public key. Bob signs up on server B with his key. A developer creates an application (that has nice social networking features like uploading pictures and posting articles) Alice asks A to host that application. A gets the application, the javascript code from the developer. It creates a random subdomain r.A.com to host the code. Alice tells Bob of that app, gives him the address of her provider A.com, her public key, a key specific for this app that bob will use to decrypt the data he gets from her. Bob does the same. (first he asks the provider to host that app if it hasn't already) Alice logs into A.com and gives the public key of Bob and the address of his provider(B.com) to A.com so that A.com accepts data from Bob for this specific application. A creates a durable subscription for bob's data for this specific application. So does Bob. Bob decides to use the app to upload a photo and create a post. The data are encrypted on the browser, are sent on his provider which in turn sends them to Alice's provider. Alice after she returns home, logs in her new application. The application retrieves the new data, decrypts them, stores them in the browser database and notifies her that bob has uploaded a new picture. The app shows the picture to Alice in a nice enviroment. She could edit the picture or comment. Alice finds the picture funny and decides to comment. ETC. 2014/1/11 crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com I can't imagine how it works or looks. Can you give us a concrete example? On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: One alternative to a mesh network is of course peer to peer encryption. All browsers nowadays can persist data on their database. Nacl and openpgp have been ported on JavaScript. All we need then is an asynchronous delivery system that sends json to the browser. That is , exactly like email except that the updates are handled by the javascript application. We could create an api for any developer to create new JavaScript applications. Each such application would be hosted in a subdomain of the user`s preferred delivery provider and be given a unique delivery address. We could then have encrypted social network sites in a matter of weeks. On Jan 10, 2014 8:59 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't tried using it myself yet, but I believe one difference is
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Peers/browser users on the internet. Mesh networks are replacable with this if we use them for protection from eavesdropping. But mesh networks have other uses too, if for example someone decides to shut down the internet entirely. It can't use zeromq because the application is on the browser. The infrastructure though could communicate with zeromq. Confusion might arise because you think of normal browser applications like php sites or any other. In those cases, you ask the server for something and it gives you the information, thus the logic of the application is on the server. In this case the logic of the application is on the browser(javascript). The server is agnostic. The server is just a durable socket that transmits data(json). 2014/1/11 crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com I'm confused. Is it an application hosted on the internet which communicates with peers on the same WiFi network? Or does it communicate with peers on the internet? Does it use ZeroMQ at all? On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 6:10 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: If there was, there would be no need to build it. Nobody has done it because a) indexedDB is quite new. b) It doesn't make business sense. You lose the revenue from the ads. c) They haven't thought of the idea of a durable socket. I got that idea from zeromq's guide(I think it has been removed now). The guide used it in case there was a failure and a client or server died. I transformed it to solve the problem of one person being offline. 2014/1/11 crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com Is there any real life application that does what you describe? On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, let me try. Problems a) 2 users want to receive data from each other but they cannot stay online all the time. sol: We add a third party in the middle that stores the information so that it will send it to the appropriate user when it goes back online. (durable socket) examples: the email system b) We want to have secure communication. sol: We use encryption. c) We want that data to be used by programs so that they present the data in a beautiful way or to precess the data and give us the result. sol: we need to store data in a format that is used in many applications d) Secure communication in general is possible. In practice, we dont use it because it requires great effort. How can we provide security with zero effort? sol: The Web is the most easy way to send and receive information. Our solution must be used by applications on the Web(social networks etc) e) Can the browser use cryptography and store data permanently? sol: yes. Nacl, openpgp and indexdb d) How can we trust that an app will use encryption and that it wont send data to NSA or add companies? sol: since all applications are in javascript, their code can be inspected. e) Do we need to trust the server? We only need to trust that the javascript code it gives us is secure. We can check the sha1 of the code to check whether it is the one we are supposed to receive. Keep in mind that there exist apps that work offline, they need to be downloaded once.( and verified only once) A simple example: We have 2 servers/delivery providers A.com and B.org. Alice signs up on server A with her public key. Bob signs up on server B with his key. A developer creates an application (that has nice social networking features like uploading pictures and posting articles) Alice asks A to host that application. A gets the application, the javascript code from the developer. It creates a random subdomain r.A.com to host the code. Alice tells Bob of that app, gives him the address of her provider A.com, her public key, a key specific for this app that bob will use to decrypt the data he gets from her. Bob does the same. (first he asks the provider to host that app if it hasn't already) Alice logs into A.com and gives the public key of Bob and the address of his provider(B.com) to A.com so that A.com accepts data from Bob for this specific application. A creates a durable subscription for bob's data for this specific application. So does Bob. Bob decides to use the app to upload a photo and create a post. The data are encrypted on the browser, are sent on his provider which in turn sends them to Alice's provider. Alice after she returns home, logs in her new application. The application retrieves the new data, decrypts them, stores them in the browser database and notifies her that bob has uploaded a new picture. The app shows the picture to Alice in a nice enviroment. She could edit the picture or comment. Alice finds the picture funny and decides to comment. ETC. 2014/1/11 crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com I can't imagine how it works or looks. Can you give us a concrete example? On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis xekou...@gmail.com
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
From what I know, setting up and maintaining a persistent WiFi Direct connection is a painful user experience. Otherwise, it gives exactly the same results as enabling the hotspot on one phone and then using standard WiFi. (Unless i'm mistaken.) On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:05 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Plus, I tested my nexus 5 and 7 with Super Beam app. Super Beam shares files and folders using WiFi Direct. My nexus devices successfully shared files via WiFi Direct. WiFi Direct is confirmed to be working at least on nexus devices. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: In the short term that may be the only solution that's workable without root access on at least some of the phones. I think the full benefits of EdgeNet won't be realized until arbitrary phones can serve as routers or data mules without the user knowing or caring, though. Right. I still think WiFi Direct has a place in the solution, when it's available. According to Wikipedia, only one phone of a group has to support WiFi Direct for the entire group to use it. That works precisely like a hotspot afaik (did not actually try that, though). -Pieter ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
I haven't tried using it myself yet, but I believe one difference is wifi direct has a programmatic API, which is not as easily exposed for normal wifi. On Jan 10, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: From what I know, setting up and maintaining a persistent WiFi Direct connection is a painful user experience. Otherwise, it gives exactly the same results as enabling the hotspot on one phone and then using standard WiFi. (Unless i'm mistaken.) On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 7:05 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Plus, I tested my nexus 5 and 7 with Super Beam app. Super Beam shares files and folders using WiFi Direct. My nexus devices successfully shared files via WiFi Direct. WiFi Direct is confirmed to be working at least on nexus devices. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: In the short term that may be the only solution that's workable without root access on at least some of the phones. I think the full benefits of EdgeNet won't be realized until arbitrary phones can serve as routers or data mules without the user knowing or caring, though. Right. I still think WiFi Direct has a place in the solution, when it's available. According to Wikipedia, only one phone of a group has to support WiFi Direct for the entire group to use it. That works precisely like a hotspot afaik (did not actually try that, though). -Pieter ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:24 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Nowadays, almost every city is covered with WiFi hotspots. And, almost every modern building and meetup is covered well by WiFi hotspots. Most houses have a hotspot or two. Why don't we take advantage of existing WiFi hotspots? It would make things so much easier while we devise a way to connect phones directly or wait for 802.11s. You can, of course. There are some aspects to take into account: * It works perfectly e.g. in the home or office where people naturally put devices on their access point. * Many public hotspots, especially in the US, block client-to-client traffic. * Public hotspots are trivial to tap, if you care about anonymity. * There really is no cost to using a smartphone as hotspot except a little delay and some battery life, while switched on. ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
On 01/09/2014 09:06 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote: * Many public hotspots, especially in the US, block client-to-client traffic. If you are talking about wireless isolation, then they only block multicasting. This means that you cannot discover other devices, but if you happen to know their IP than you can communcate with them. Some systems provide a fall-back solution that will do device discovery via a cloud server. Qualcomm's AllJoyn/AllSeen is an example of that. Not very EdgeNetish though. ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
On Jan 9, 2014, at 10:52, Bjorn Reese bre...@mail1.stofanet.dk wrote: On 01/09/2014 09:06 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote: * Many public hotspots, especially in the US, block client-to-client traffic. If you are talking about wireless isolation, then they only block multicasting. This means that you cannot discover other devices, but if you happen to know their IP than you can communcate with them. I think Pieter was quite clear with his sentence, and explains with much more detail on the book. I’ll add that in Europe it’s also typical to block client-to-client on the mobile network, including traffic initiated from the internet into the public IP of the mobile or data card. signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:19 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues bruno.rodrig...@litux.org wrote: On Jan 9, 2014, at 10:52, Bjorn Reese bre...@mail1.stofanet.dk wrote: If you are talking about wireless isolation, then they only block multicasting. This means that you cannot discover other devices, but if you happen to know their IP than you can communcate with them. I think Pieter was quite clear with his sentence, and explains with much more detail on the book. From testing, it varies. On some hotspots, UDP broadcast and/or multicast is blocked. On other hotspots, client to client access is blocked, even if you know the IP address. One test case is bulk connecting, i.e. issue zmq_connect () to every other IP address on the block. That fails on perhaps 20-50% of hotspots, even in offices. It's a bit of a mess. Since we're not in control of the hardware we cannot be very ambitious. Hence my preference for the smartphone hotspot. -Pieter ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Can manual assistance be effective in case of anonymous/pseudonomous broadcast used in async message apps? On Jan 9, 2014 3:05 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 1:32 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Until there comes the edgenet mailing list, we can talk about it here. Sure. By manual assistance, do you mean people turn on hotspots and connect to them manually on site? Ideally, from within applications, e.g. inviting someone into your document would switch on a hotspot and display a PIN. Other people could then Search for invitations (scan for matching SSIDs) and enter the PIN to join. Is there any better manual method than I described above? On Jan 9, 2014 8:28 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: (a) I think we need to start an edgenet mailing list, as this is both such an interesting discussion, and yet so different from what people are expecting here (b) wifidirect is a not quite mesh 1-to-1 link and in fact very close to what I was thinking of with edgenet in the beginning. There's not a lot of choice, if you don't have 802.11s mesh working in the firmware, which few devices have. (c) you don't need root access to enable AP mode on most phones afaik. Not Android, anyhow (the API isn't documented but you can dig it out.) (d) we tried, and failed (in a previous closed project) to create and discover cells automatically. Best approach seems to be manual assistance. -Pieter On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Arnaud Loonstra arn...@sphaero.org wrote: On 01/08/2014 03:46 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues wrote: I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com mailto:crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? You could follow a roaming setup. Setup an hotspot with any name and make sure it is setup for roaming. Usually the authentication is done using radius. Which would be very easy to implement as radius is very simple protocol. Even just MAC authentication would suffice but you could go on into EAP/TTLS or PEAP setups. To setup an hotspot on a phone you'll probably need root access. WifiDirect would be better but I don't any devices that support it. It will probably be stopped by vendors ;) Just like PTT. Rg, Arnaud -- w: http://www.sphaero.org t: http://twitter.com/sphaero g: http://github.com/sphaero i: freenode: sphaero_z25 ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
My idea was to make it like a game: by finding and peering with other devices you gain points. It is very close to deliberate peering with people you actually know. The two cases may overlap. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:13 PM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Can manual assistance be effective in case of anonymous/pseudonomous broadcast used in async message apps? On Jan 9, 2014 3:05 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 1:32 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Until there comes the edgenet mailing list, we can talk about it here. Sure. By manual assistance, do you mean people turn on hotspots and connect to them manually on site? Ideally, from within applications, e.g. inviting someone into your document would switch on a hotspot and display a PIN. Other people could then Search for invitations (scan for matching SSIDs) and enter the PIN to join. Is there any better manual method than I described above? On Jan 9, 2014 8:28 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: (a) I think we need to start an edgenet mailing list, as this is both such an interesting discussion, and yet so different from what people are expecting here (b) wifidirect is a not quite mesh 1-to-1 link and in fact very close to what I was thinking of with edgenet in the beginning. There's not a lot of choice, if you don't have 802.11s mesh working in the firmware, which few devices have. (c) you don't need root access to enable AP mode on most phones afaik. Not Android, anyhow (the API isn't documented but you can dig it out.) (d) we tried, and failed (in a previous closed project) to create and discover cells automatically. Best approach seems to be manual assistance. -Pieter On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Arnaud Loonstra arn...@sphaero.org wrote: On 01/08/2014 03:46 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues wrote: I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com mailto:crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? You could follow a roaming setup. Setup an hotspot with any name and make sure it is setup for roaming. Usually the authentication is done using radius. Which would be very easy to implement as radius is very simple protocol. Even just MAC authentication would suffice but you could go on into EAP/TTLS or PEAP setups. To setup an hotspot on a phone you'll probably need root access. WifiDirect would be better but I don't any devices that support it. It will probably be stopped by vendors ;) Just like PTT. Rg, Arnaud -- w: http://www.sphaero.org t: http://twitter.com/sphaero g: http://github.com/sphaero i: freenode: sphaero_z25 ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Bluetooth works well enough as a standard network interface bnep0 if the messages you're sending are small. (It really is pretty slow, though.) The hard part is programmatically configuring the stack to use it that way, and (preferably) programmatically pairing without user interaction. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 1:02 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: Bluetooth is not designed for general app-to-app messaging, rather as a wireless connector for low-rate devices. You can plausibly use it to set up WiFi connections, a hybrid solution. AllJoyn is made by Qualcomm, who have the expertise to make BlueTooth work. For most people it's not practical. The ideal would be 802.11s mesh (as used in the OLPC), which no-one seems to want to build into consumer mobile devices. My assumption is that useful apps running on WiFi can push the market towards better connectivity. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 1:31 AM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: Wifi isn't the only answer here. Bluetooth can provide similar functionality. I don't know the details but the Alljoyn people claim to be able to automatically set up Bluetooth links with phones in range. On Jan 8, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: (a) I think we need to start an edgenet mailing list, as this is both such an interesting discussion, and yet so different from what people are expecting here (b) wifidirect is a not quite mesh 1-to-1 link and in fact very close to what I was thinking of with edgenet in the beginning. There's not a lot of choice, if you don't have 802.11s mesh working in the firmware, which few devices have. (c) you don't need root access to enable AP mode on most phones afaik. Not Android, anyhow (the API isn't documented but you can dig it out.) (d) we tried, and failed (in a previous closed project) to create and discover cells automatically. Best approach seems to be manual assistance. -Pieter On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Arnaud Loonstra arn...@sphaero.org wrote: On 01/08/2014 03:46 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues wrote: I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com mailto:crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? You could follow a roaming setup. Setup an hotspot with any name and make sure it is setup for roaming. Usually the authentication is done using radius. Which would be very easy to implement as radius is very simple protocol. Even just MAC authentication would suffice but you could go on into EAP/TTLS or PEAP setups. To setup an hotspot on a phone you'll probably need root access. WifiDirect would be better but I don't any devices that support it. It will probably be stopped by vendors ;) Just like PTT. Rg, Arnaud -- w: http://www.sphaero.org t: http://twitter.com/sphaero g: http://github.com/sphaero i: freenode: sphaero_z25 ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
There really is no cost to using a smartphone as hotspot except a little delay and some battery life, while switched on. Battery life may be more of an issue than you realize. Wifi radios use far less power than 3G radios, but they still *do* use power, and the pattern of network activity can have a strong effect on battery life. The most important thing to realize is that people expect their smartphones not to use much power while they're idle. If you're doing network activity all the time in the background, that isn't the case, and people will become unhappy with your software and uninstall it. (Note the reactions to the first release of Google Now, which committed a similar sin with location services. GPS receivers use a lot of power too.) To some extent you can be smart enough to reduce network activity significantly while the phone is idle compared to active. Beacon less often, include a parameter in the beacon letting other phones know you'll only be listening for a short window after a beacon, etc. It's possible to give the radio a break. My concern is that once a phone is trying to host an access point, it gets a lot harder to be selective about when the wifi radio is active. It has to be on pretty much all the time. The exception might be ad-hoc mode-once one node creates an ad-hoc network (which is surprisingly tricky on Android), others can sustain the SSID without it. However, if the anchoring node was providing DHCP services, then obviously that won't work anymore once it goes offline. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:06 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:24 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Nowadays, almost every city is covered with WiFi hotspots. And, almost every modern building and meetup is covered well by WiFi hotspots. Most houses have a hotspot or two. Why don't we take advantage of existing WiFi hotspots? It would make things so much easier while we devise a way to connect phones directly or wait for 802.11s. You can, of course. There are some aspects to take into account: * It works perfectly e.g. in the home or office where people naturally put devices on their access point. * Many public hotspots, especially in the US, block client-to-client traffic. * Public hotspots are trivial to tap, if you care about anonymity. * There really is no cost to using a smartphone as hotspot except a little delay and some battery life, while switched on. ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Ad-hoc mode is too poorly supported to depend on. And it's slow. In any case a phone cannot act as a hotspot for any length of time. On some firmwares enabling AP mode will switch off 3G. This is still fine for us. My idea was to put this decision at the user level, initially. The application chooses to host or to join some activity. It's a natural pattern in a group of people. The host of a meeting is less likely to walk out the door, and more likely to have power. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: There really is no cost to using a smartphone as hotspot except a little delay and some battery life, while switched on. Battery life may be more of an issue than you realize. Wifi radios use far less power than 3G radios, but they still *do* use power, and the pattern of network activity can have a strong effect on battery life. The most important thing to realize is that people expect their smartphones not to use much power while they're idle. If you're doing network activity all the time in the background, that isn't the case, and people will become unhappy with your software and uninstall it. (Note the reactions to the first release of Google Now, which committed a similar sin with location services. GPS receivers use a lot of power too.) To some extent you can be smart enough to reduce network activity significantly while the phone is idle compared to active. Beacon less often, include a parameter in the beacon letting other phones know you'll only be listening for a short window after a beacon, etc. It's possible to give the radio a break. My concern is that once a phone is trying to host an access point, it gets a lot harder to be selective about when the wifi radio is active. It has to be on pretty much all the time. The exception might be ad-hoc mode-once one node creates an ad-hoc network (which is surprisingly tricky on Android), others can sustain the SSID without it. However, if the anchoring node was providing DHCP services, then obviously that won't work anymore once it goes offline. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:06 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:24 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Nowadays, almost every city is covered with WiFi hotspots. And, almost every modern building and meetup is covered well by WiFi hotspots. Most houses have a hotspot or two. Why don't we take advantage of existing WiFi hotspots? It would make things so much easier while we devise a way to connect phones directly or wait for 802.11s. You can, of course. There are some aspects to take into account: * It works perfectly e.g. in the home or office where people naturally put devices on their access point. * Many public hotspots, especially in the US, block client-to-client traffic. * Public hotspots are trivial to tap, if you care about anonymity. * There really is no cost to using a smartphone as hotspot except a little delay and some battery life, while switched on. ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Having no experience on the matter, why not use bluetooth as an interface that searches for peers and wifi for real network traffic. Wifi will be switched on only when there is need for data to be sent. That could also help the wifi automatically switch to the best access point. Bluetooth has a range of 50m. That is good enough for peer discovery and peer coordination. From the wikipedia, both of them are available on smartphones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_low_energy 2014/1/9 Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com Ad-hoc mode is too poorly supported to depend on. And it's slow. In any case a phone cannot act as a hotspot for any length of time. On some firmwares enabling AP mode will switch off 3G. This is still fine for us. My idea was to put this decision at the user level, initially. The application chooses to host or to join some activity. It's a natural pattern in a group of people. The host of a meeting is less likely to walk out the door, and more likely to have power. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: There really is no cost to using a smartphone as hotspot except a little delay and some battery life, while switched on. Battery life may be more of an issue than you realize. Wifi radios use far less power than 3G radios, but they still *do* use power, and the pattern of network activity can have a strong effect on battery life. The most important thing to realize is that people expect their smartphones not to use much power while they're idle. If you're doing network activity all the time in the background, that isn't the case, and people will become unhappy with your software and uninstall it. (Note the reactions to the first release of Google Now, which committed a similar sin with location services. GPS receivers use a lot of power too.) To some extent you can be smart enough to reduce network activity significantly while the phone is idle compared to active. Beacon less often, include a parameter in the beacon letting other phones know you'll only be listening for a short window after a beacon, etc. It's possible to give the radio a break. My concern is that once a phone is trying to host an access point, it gets a lot harder to be selective about when the wifi radio is active. It has to be on pretty much all the time. The exception might be ad-hoc mode-once one node creates an ad-hoc network (which is surprisingly tricky on Android), others can sustain the SSID without it. However, if the anchoring node was providing DHCP services, then obviously that won't work anymore once it goes offline. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:06 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:24 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Nowadays, almost every city is covered with WiFi hotspots. And, almost every modern building and meetup is covered well by WiFi hotspots. Most houses have a hotspot or two. Why don't we take advantage of existing WiFi hotspots? It would make things so much easier while we devise a way to connect phones directly or wait for 802.11s. You can, of course. There are some aspects to take into account: * It works perfectly e.g. in the home or office where people naturally put devices on their access point. * Many public hotspots, especially in the US, block client-to-client traffic. * Public hotspots are trivial to tap, if you care about anonymity. * There really is no cost to using a smartphone as hotspot except a little delay and some battery life, while switched on. ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev -- Sincerely yours, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
In the short term that may be the only solution that's workable without root access on at least some of the phones. I think the full benefits of EdgeNet won't be realized until arbitrary phones can serve as routers or data mules without the user knowing or caring, though. I still think WiFi Direct has a place in the solution, when it's available. According to Wikipedia, only one phone of a group has to support WiFi Direct for the entire group to use it. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 9:19 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: Ad-hoc mode is too poorly supported to depend on. And it's slow. In any case a phone cannot act as a hotspot for any length of time. On some firmwares enabling AP mode will switch off 3G. This is still fine for us. My idea was to put this decision at the user level, initially. The application chooses to host or to join some activity. It's a natural pattern in a group of people. The host of a meeting is less likely to walk out the door, and more likely to have power. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: There really is no cost to using a smartphone as hotspot except a little delay and some battery life, while switched on. Battery life may be more of an issue than you realize. Wifi radios use far less power than 3G radios, but they still *do* use power, and the pattern of network activity can have a strong effect on battery life. The most important thing to realize is that people expect their smartphones not to use much power while they're idle. If you're doing network activity all the time in the background, that isn't the case, and people will become unhappy with your software and uninstall it. (Note the reactions to the first release of Google Now, which committed a similar sin with location services. GPS receivers use a lot of power too.) To some extent you can be smart enough to reduce network activity significantly while the phone is idle compared to active. Beacon less often, include a parameter in the beacon letting other phones know you'll only be listening for a short window after a beacon, etc. It's possible to give the radio a break. My concern is that once a phone is trying to host an access point, it gets a lot harder to be selective about when the wifi radio is active. It has to be on pretty much all the time. The exception might be ad-hoc mode-once one node creates an ad-hoc network (which is surprisingly tricky on Android), others can sustain the SSID without it. However, if the anchoring node was providing DHCP services, then obviously that won't work anymore once it goes offline. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:06 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:24 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Nowadays, almost every city is covered with WiFi hotspots. And, almost every modern building and meetup is covered well by WiFi hotspots. Most houses have a hotspot or two. Why don't we take advantage of existing WiFi hotspots? It would make things so much easier while we devise a way to connect phones directly or wait for 802.11s. You can, of course. There are some aspects to take into account: * It works perfectly e.g. in the home or office where people naturally put devices on their access point. * Many public hotspots, especially in the US, block client-to-client traffic. * Public hotspots are trivial to tap, if you care about anonymity. * There really is no cost to using a smartphone as hotspot except a little delay and some battery life, while switched on. ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: In the short term that may be the only solution that's workable without root access on at least some of the phones. I think the full benefits of EdgeNet won't be realized until arbitrary phones can serve as routers or data mules without the user knowing or caring, though. Right. I still think WiFi Direct has a place in the solution, when it's available. According to Wikipedia, only one phone of a group has to support WiFi Direct for the entire group to use it. That works precisely like a hotspot afaik (did not actually try that, though). -Pieter ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/wifip2p.html tells android has WiFi Direct capability since 4.0. This is a good news. I'm not sure about iOS, but iPhones can connect to WiFi-Direct-capable android phones. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: In the short term that may be the only solution that's workable without root access on at least some of the phones. I think the full benefits of EdgeNet won't be realized until arbitrary phones can serve as routers or data mules without the user knowing or caring, though. Right. I still think WiFi Direct has a place in the solution, when it's available. According to Wikipedia, only one phone of a group has to support WiFi Direct for the entire group to use it. That works precisely like a hotspot afaik (did not actually try that, though). -Pieter ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Plus, I tested my nexus 5 and 7 with Super Beam app. Super Beam shares files and folders using WiFi Direct. My nexus devices successfully shared files via WiFi Direct. WiFi Direct is confirmed to be working at least on nexus devices. On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: In the short term that may be the only solution that's workable without root access on at least some of the phones. I think the full benefits of EdgeNet won't be realized until arbitrary phones can serve as routers or data mules without the user knowing or caring, though. Right. I still think WiFi Direct has a place in the solution, when it's available. According to Wikipedia, only one phone of a group has to support WiFi Direct for the entire group to use it. That works precisely like a hotspot afaik (did not actually try that, though). -Pieter ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
[zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
In phones that support it, perhaps WiFiDirect would be a good solution here. On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 7:03 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
On 01/08/2014 03:46 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues wrote: I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com mailto:crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? You could follow a roaming setup. Setup an hotspot with any name and make sure it is setup for roaming. Usually the authentication is done using radius. Which would be very easy to implement as radius is very simple protocol. Even just MAC authentication would suffice but you could go on into EAP/TTLS or PEAP setups. To setup an hotspot on a phone you'll probably need root access. WifiDirect would be better but I don't any devices that support it. It will probably be stopped by vendors ;) Just like PTT. Rg, Arnaud -- w: http://www.sphaero.org t: http://twitter.com/sphaero g: http://github.com/sphaero i: freenode: sphaero_z25 ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
(a) I think we need to start an edgenet mailing list, as this is both such an interesting discussion, and yet so different from what people are expecting here (b) wifidirect is a not quite mesh 1-to-1 link and in fact very close to what I was thinking of with edgenet in the beginning. There's not a lot of choice, if you don't have 802.11s mesh working in the firmware, which few devices have. (c) you don't need root access to enable AP mode on most phones afaik. Not Android, anyhow (the API isn't documented but you can dig it out.) (d) we tried, and failed (in a previous closed project) to create and discover cells automatically. Best approach seems to be manual assistance. -Pieter On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Arnaud Loonstra arn...@sphaero.org wrote: On 01/08/2014 03:46 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues wrote: I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com mailto:crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? You could follow a roaming setup. Setup an hotspot with any name and make sure it is setup for roaming. Usually the authentication is done using radius. Which would be very easy to implement as radius is very simple protocol. Even just MAC authentication would suffice but you could go on into EAP/TTLS or PEAP setups. To setup an hotspot on a phone you'll probably need root access. WifiDirect would be better but I don't any devices that support it. It will probably be stopped by vendors ;) Just like PTT. Rg, Arnaud -- w: http://www.sphaero.org t: http://twitter.com/sphaero g: http://github.com/sphaero i: freenode: sphaero_z25 ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
On 01/08/2014 03:46 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues wrote: I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com mailto:crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? You could follow a roaming setup. Setup an hotspot with any name and make sure it is setup for roaming. Usually the authentication is done using radius. Which would be very easy to implement as radius is very simple protocol. Even just MAC authentication would suffice but you could go on into EAP/TTLS or PEAP setups. To setup an hotspot on a phone you'll probably need root access. WifiDirect would be better but I don't any devices that support it. It will probably be stopped by vendors ;) Just like PTT. Rg, Arnaud ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Wifi isn't the only answer here. Bluetooth can provide similar functionality. I don't know the details but the Alljoyn people claim to be able to automatically set up Bluetooth links with phones in range. On Jan 8, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: (a) I think we need to start an edgenet mailing list, as this is both such an interesting discussion, and yet so different from what people are expecting here (b) wifidirect is a not quite mesh 1-to-1 link and in fact very close to what I was thinking of with edgenet in the beginning. There's not a lot of choice, if you don't have 802.11s mesh working in the firmware, which few devices have. (c) you don't need root access to enable AP mode on most phones afaik. Not Android, anyhow (the API isn't documented but you can dig it out.) (d) we tried, and failed (in a previous closed project) to create and discover cells automatically. Best approach seems to be manual assistance. -Pieter On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Arnaud Loonstra arn...@sphaero.org wrote: On 01/08/2014 03:46 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues wrote: I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com mailto:crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? You could follow a roaming setup. Setup an hotspot with any name and make sure it is setup for roaming. Usually the authentication is done using radius. Which would be very easy to implement as radius is very simple protocol. Even just MAC authentication would suffice but you could go on into EAP/TTLS or PEAP setups. To setup an hotspot on a phone you'll probably need root access. WifiDirect would be better but I don't any devices that support it. It will probably be stopped by vendors ;) Just like PTT. Rg, Arnaud -- w: http://www.sphaero.org t: http://twitter.com/sphaero g: http://github.com/sphaero i: freenode: sphaero_z25 ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Until there comes the edgenet mailing list, we can talk about it here. By manual assistance, do you mean people turn on hotspots and connect to them manually on site? Is there any better manual method than I described above? On Jan 9, 2014 8:28 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: (a) I think we need to start an edgenet mailing list, as this is both such an interesting discussion, and yet so different from what people are expecting here (b) wifidirect is a not quite mesh 1-to-1 link and in fact very close to what I was thinking of with edgenet in the beginning. There's not a lot of choice, if you don't have 802.11s mesh working in the firmware, which few devices have. (c) you don't need root access to enable AP mode on most phones afaik. Not Android, anyhow (the API isn't documented but you can dig it out.) (d) we tried, and failed (in a previous closed project) to create and discover cells automatically. Best approach seems to be manual assistance. -Pieter On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Arnaud Loonstra arn...@sphaero.org wrote: On 01/08/2014 03:46 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues wrote: I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com mailto:crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? You could follow a roaming setup. Setup an hotspot with any name and make sure it is setup for roaming. Usually the authentication is done using radius. Which would be very easy to implement as radius is very simple protocol. Even just MAC authentication would suffice but you could go on into EAP/TTLS or PEAP setups. To setup an hotspot on a phone you'll probably need root access. WifiDirect would be better but I don't any devices that support it. It will probably be stopped by vendors ;) Just like PTT. Rg, Arnaud -- w: http://www.sphaero.org t: http://twitter.com/sphaero g: http://github.com/sphaero i: freenode: sphaero_z25 ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Bluetooth is not designed for general app-to-app messaging, rather as a wireless connector for low-rate devices. You can plausibly use it to set up WiFi connections, a hybrid solution. AllJoyn is made by Qualcomm, who have the expertise to make BlueTooth work. For most people it's not practical. The ideal would be 802.11s mesh (as used in the OLPC), which no-one seems to want to build into consumer mobile devices. My assumption is that useful apps running on WiFi can push the market towards better connectivity. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 1:31 AM, Lindley French lindl...@gmail.com wrote: Wifi isn't the only answer here. Bluetooth can provide similar functionality. I don't know the details but the Alljoyn people claim to be able to automatically set up Bluetooth links with phones in range. On Jan 8, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: (a) I think we need to start an edgenet mailing list, as this is both such an interesting discussion, and yet so different from what people are expecting here (b) wifidirect is a not quite mesh 1-to-1 link and in fact very close to what I was thinking of with edgenet in the beginning. There's not a lot of choice, if you don't have 802.11s mesh working in the firmware, which few devices have. (c) you don't need root access to enable AP mode on most phones afaik. Not Android, anyhow (the API isn't documented but you can dig it out.) (d) we tried, and failed (in a previous closed project) to create and discover cells automatically. Best approach seems to be manual assistance. -Pieter On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Arnaud Loonstra arn...@sphaero.org wrote: On 01/08/2014 03:46 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues wrote: I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com mailto:crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? You could follow a roaming setup. Setup an hotspot with any name and make sure it is setup for roaming. Usually the authentication is done using radius. Which would be very easy to implement as radius is very simple protocol. Even just MAC authentication would suffice but you could go on into EAP/TTLS or PEAP setups. To setup an hotspot on a phone you'll probably need root access. WifiDirect would be better but I don't any devices that support it. It will probably be stopped by vendors ;) Just like PTT. Rg, Arnaud -- w: http://www.sphaero.org t: http://twitter.com/sphaero g: http://github.com/sphaero i: freenode: sphaero_z25 ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 1:32 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Until there comes the edgenet mailing list, we can talk about it here. Sure. By manual assistance, do you mean people turn on hotspots and connect to them manually on site? Ideally, from within applications, e.g. inviting someone into your document would switch on a hotspot and display a PIN. Other people could then Search for invitations (scan for matching SSIDs) and enter the PIN to join. Is there any better manual method than I described above? On Jan 9, 2014 8:28 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: (a) I think we need to start an edgenet mailing list, as this is both such an interesting discussion, and yet so different from what people are expecting here (b) wifidirect is a not quite mesh 1-to-1 link and in fact very close to what I was thinking of with edgenet in the beginning. There's not a lot of choice, if you don't have 802.11s mesh working in the firmware, which few devices have. (c) you don't need root access to enable AP mode on most phones afaik. Not Android, anyhow (the API isn't documented but you can dig it out.) (d) we tried, and failed (in a previous closed project) to create and discover cells automatically. Best approach seems to be manual assistance. -Pieter On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Arnaud Loonstra arn...@sphaero.org wrote: On 01/08/2014 03:46 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues wrote: I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com mailto:crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? You could follow a roaming setup. Setup an hotspot with any name and make sure it is setup for roaming. Usually the authentication is done using radius. Which would be very easy to implement as radius is very simple protocol. Even just MAC authentication would suffice but you could go on into EAP/TTLS or PEAP setups. To setup an hotspot on a phone you'll probably need root access. WifiDirect would be better but I don't any devices that support it. It will probably be stopped by vendors ;) Just like PTT. Rg, Arnaud -- w: http://www.sphaero.org t: http://twitter.com/sphaero g: http://github.com/sphaero i: freenode: sphaero_z25 ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
Re: [zeromq-dev] How do we activate and connect to WiFi hotspots in edgenets?
Nowadays, almost every city is covered with WiFi hotspots. And, almost every modern building and meetup is covered well by WiFi hotspots. Most houses have a hotspot or two. Why don't we take advantage of existing WiFi hotspots? It would make things so much easier while we devise a way to connect phones directly or wait for 802.11s. On Jan 9, 2014 3:05 PM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 1:32 AM, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: Until there comes the edgenet mailing list, we can talk about it here. Sure. By manual assistance, do you mean people turn on hotspots and connect to them manually on site? Ideally, from within applications, e.g. inviting someone into your document would switch on a hotspot and display a PIN. Other people could then Search for invitations (scan for matching SSIDs) and enter the PIN to join. Is there any better manual method than I described above? On Jan 9, 2014 8:28 AM, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote: (a) I think we need to start an edgenet mailing list, as this is both such an interesting discussion, and yet so different from what people are expecting here (b) wifidirect is a not quite mesh 1-to-1 link and in fact very close to what I was thinking of with edgenet in the beginning. There's not a lot of choice, if you don't have 802.11s mesh working in the firmware, which few devices have. (c) you don't need root access to enable AP mode on most phones afaik. Not Android, anyhow (the API isn't documented but you can dig it out.) (d) we tried, and failed (in a previous closed project) to create and discover cells automatically. Best approach seems to be manual assistance. -Pieter On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Arnaud Loonstra arn...@sphaero.org wrote: On 01/08/2014 03:46 PM, Bruno D. Rodrigues wrote: I don’t know too many details about FON, but we have an ISP in Portugal that provides FON over all their clients (if they accept) and as soon as I connect to one FON hotstpot, the device automatically connects to any other. No idea if it’s just because it’s the same name, or if there is any other value that is forced to be the same, but somehow it is possible. On Jan 8, 2014, at 12:03, crocket crockabisc...@gmail.com mailto:crockabisc...@gmail.com wrote: People may be able to devise an algorithm for automatically turning on hotspots in several smartphones among many. But, even with hotspots turned on, how do phones connect to each other if smartphones simply refuse to connect to randomly named hotspots? Should we forcefully rename hotspots to a predetermined name(e.g., edgenet) and agree to connect to hotspots named edgenet? You could follow a roaming setup. Setup an hotspot with any name and make sure it is setup for roaming. Usually the authentication is done using radius. Which would be very easy to implement as radius is very simple protocol. Even just MAC authentication would suffice but you could go on into EAP/TTLS or PEAP setups. To setup an hotspot on a phone you'll probably need root access. WifiDirect would be better but I don't any devices that support it. It will probably be stopped by vendors ;) Just like PTT. Rg, Arnaud -- w: http://www.sphaero.org t: http://twitter.com/sphaero g: http://github.com/sphaero i: freenode: sphaero_z25 ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev ___ zeromq-dev mailing list zeromq-dev@lists.zeromq.org http://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
