Re: [zfs-discuss] zfs and raid 51
2009/2/18 Ragnar Sundblad ra...@csc.kth.se: For our file- and mail servers we have been using mirrored raid-5 chassises, with disksuite and ufs. This has served us well, and the By some reason that I haven't gotten yet, zfs doesn't allow you to put raids upon each other, like mirrors/stripes/parity raids on mirrors/stripes/parity raids, in a single pool. Is there any reason why you don't want to use striped mirrors (i.e. stripes of mirrored vdevs, a.k.a raid 10) with online spares? This should provide high level of availability while greatly reducing downtime needed for resilvering in the event of disk failure. And if you're REALLY paranoid you could go with 3-way or more mirror for each vdevs. Regards, Fajar ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Backing up ZFS snapshots
David Magda dmagda at ee.ryerson.ca writes: The format of the [zfs send] stream is evolving. No backwards compatibility is guaranteed. You may not be able to receive your streams on future versions of ZFS. http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819-2240/zfs-1m If you want to do back ups of your file system use a documented utility (tar, cpio, pax, zip, etc.). Well understood. But does anyone know the long-term intentions of the ZFS developers in this area? The one big disadvantage of the recommended approaches shows up when you start taking advantage of ZFS to clone filesystems without replicating storage. Using zfs send will avoid representing the data twice to the backup system (and allow easy reconstruction of the clones), but I don't think the same goes for the other techniques. It would be nice to know that they're thinking about a way to address these issues. -- Dave Abrahams Boostpro Computing http://boostpro.com ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Backing up ZFS snapshots
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, David Abrahams wrote: If you want to do back ups of your file system use a documented utility (tar, cpio, pax, zip, etc.). Well understood. But does anyone know the long-term intentions of the ZFS developers in this area? The one big disadvantage of the It would be nice to know that they're thinking about a way to address these issues. You are requesting that the ZFS developers be able to predict the future. How can they do that? Imposting a requirement for backwards compatibly will make it more difficult for ZFS to adapt to changing requirements as it evolves. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Backing up ZFS snapshots
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us wrote: On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, David Abrahams wrote: If you want to do back ups of your file system use a documented utility (tar, cpio, pax, zip, etc.). Well understood. But does anyone know the long-term intentions of the ZFS developers in this area? The one big disadvantage of the It would be nice to know that they're thinking about a way to address these issues. You are requesting that the ZFS developers be able to predict the future. How can they do that? Imposting a requirement for backwards compatibly will make it more difficult for ZFS to adapt to changing requirements as it evolves. Bob No, he's not asking them to predict the future. Don't be a dick. He's asking if they can share some of their intentions based on their current internal roadmap. If you're telling me Sun doesn't have a 1yr/2yr/3yr roadmap for ZFS I'd say we're all in some serious trouble. We make it up as we go along does NOT invoke the least bit of confidence, and I HIGHLY doubt that's how they're operating. --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Backing up ZFS snapshots
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Tim wrote: No, he's not asking them to predict the future. Don't be a dick. He's asking if they can share some of their intentions based on their current internal roadmap. If you're telling me Sun doesn't have a 1yr/2yr/3yr roadmap for ZFS I'd say we're all in some serious trouble. We make it up as we go along does NOT invoke the least bit of confidence, and I HIGHLY doubt that's how they're operating. ZFS is principally already developed. It is now undergoing feature improvement, performance, and stability updates. Perhaps entries in the OpenSolaris bug tracking system may reveal what is requested to be worked on. In the current economy, I think that We make it up as we go along is indeed the best plan. That is what most of us are doing now. Multi-year roadmaps are continually being erased and restarted due to changes (reductions) in staff, funding, and customer base. Yes, most of us are in some serious trouble and if you are not, then you are somehow blessed. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Backing up ZFS snapshots
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us wrote: ZFS is principally already developed. It is now undergoing feature improvement, performance, and stability updates. Perhaps entries in the OpenSolaris bug tracking system may reveal what is requested to be worked on. In the current economy, I think that We make it up as we go along is indeed the best plan. That is what most of us are doing now. Multi-year roadmaps are continually being erased and restarted due to changes (reductions) in staff, funding, and customer base. Yes, most of us are in some serious trouble and if you are not, then you are somehow blessed. Bob Well given that I *KNOW* Sun isn't making shit up as they go along, and I have *SEEN* some of their plans under NDA, I'll just outright call bullshit. I was trying to be nice about it. If you're making stuff up as you go along that's likely why you're struggling. Modifying plans is one thing. Not having any is another thing entirely. --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Backing up ZFS snapshots
David Abrahams wrote: David Magda dmagda at ee.ryerson.ca writes: The format of the [zfs send] stream is evolving. No backwards compatibility is guaranteed. You may not be able to receive your streams on future versions of ZFS. http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819-2240/zfs-1m If you want to do back ups of your file system use a documented utility (tar, cpio, pax, zip, etc.). Well understood. But does anyone know the long-term intentions of the ZFS developers in this area? The one big disadvantage of the recommended approaches shows up when you start taking advantage of ZFS to clone filesystems without replicating storage. Using zfs send will avoid representing the data twice to the backup system (and allow easy reconstruction of the clones), but I don't think the same goes for the other techniques. I wouldn't have any serious concerns about backing up snapshots provided the stream version was on the tape label and I had a backup of the Solaris release (or a virtual machine) that produced them. -- Ian. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] RFE for two-level ZFS
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:36:22PM -0800, Brandon High wrote: On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 6:18 AM, Gary Mills mi...@cc.umanitoba.ca wrote: Should I file an RFE for this addition to ZFS? The concept would be to run ZFS on a file server, exporting storage to an application server where ZFS also runs on top of that storage. All storage management would take place on the file server, where the physical disks reside. The application server would still perform end-to-end error checking but would notify the file server when it detected an error. You could accomplish most of this by creating a iSCSI volume on the storage server, then using ZFS with no redundancy on the application server. That's what I'd like to do, and what we do now. The RFE is to take advantage of the end-to-end checksums in ZFS in spite of having no redundancy on the application server. Having all of the disk management in one place is a great benefit. You'll have two layers for checksums, one on the storage server's zpool and a second on the application server's filesystem. The application server won't be able to notify the storage server that it's detected a bad checksum, other than through retries, but can write a user-space monitor that watches for ZFS checksum errors and sends notification to the storage server. The RFE is to enable the two instances of ZFS to exchange information about checksum failures. To poke a hole in your idea: What if the app server does find an error? What's the storage server to do at that point? Provided that the storage server's zpool already has redundancy, the data written to disk should already be exactly what was received from the client. If you want to have the ability to recover from erorrs on the app server, you should use a redundant zpool - Either a mirror or a raidz. Yes, if the two instances of ZFS disagree, we have a problem that needs to be resolved: they need to cooperate in this endevour. If you're concerned about data corruption in transit, then it sounds like something akin to T10 DIF (which others mentioned) would fit the bill. You could also tunnel the traffic over a transit layer such as TLS or SSH that provides a measure of validation. Latency should be fun to deal with however. I'm mainly concerned that ZFS on the application server will detect a checksum error and then be unable to preserve the data. Iscsi already has TCP checksums. I assume that FC-AL does as well. Using more reliable checksums has no benefit if ZFS will still detect end-to-end checksum errors. -- -Gary Mills--Unix Support--U of M Academic Computing and Networking- ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Backing up ZFS snapshots
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Tim wrote: Well given that I *KNOW* Sun isn't making shit up as they go along, and I have *SEEN* some of their plans under NDA, I'll just outright call bullshit. I was trying to be nice about it. If you're making stuff up as you go along that's likely why you're struggling. Modifying plans is one thing. Not having any is another thing entirely. If plans are important to you, then I suggested that you write to your local congressman and express your concern. Otherwise plans are stymied by a severely faltering economy, a failing banking system, and unpredictable government response. At this point we should be happy that Sun has reiterated its support for OpenSolaris and ZFS during these difficult times. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Backing up ZFS snapshots
da == David Abrahams d...@boostpro.com writes: ic == Ian Collins i...@ianshome.com writes: da disadvantage of the recommended approaches shows up when you da start taking advantage of ZFS to clone filesystems without da replicating storage. Using zfs send will avoid representing da the data twice Two or three people wanted S3 support, but IMVHO maybe S3 is too expensive and is better applied to getting another decade out of aging, reliable operating systems, and ZFS architecture should work towards replacing S3 not toward pandering to it. Many new ZFS users are convinced to try ZFS because they want to back up non-ZFS filesystems onto zpool's because it's better than tape, so that's not a crazy idea. It's plausible to want one backup server with a big slow pool, deliberately running a Solaris release newer than anything else in your lab. Then have tens of Solaris's of various tooth-length 'zfs send'ing from many pools toward one pool on the backup server. The obvious way to move a filesystem rather than a pool from older Solaris to newer, is 'zfs send | zfs recv'. The obvious problem: this doesn't always work. The less obvious problem: how do you restore? It's one thing to say, ``I want it to always work to zfs send from an older system to a newer,'' which we are NOT saying yet. To make restore work, we need to promise more: ``the format of the 'zfs send' stream depends only on the version number of the ZFS filesystem being sent, not on the zpool version and not on the build of the sending OS.'' That's a more aggressive compatibility guarantee than anyone's suggested so far, never mind what we have. At least it's more regression-testable than the weaker compatibility promises: you can 'zfs send' a hundred stored test streams from various old builds toward the system under test, then 'zfs send' them back to simulate a restore, and modulo some possible headers you could strip off, they should be bit-for-bit identical when they come out as when they go in. zpool becomes a non-fragile way of storing fragile 'zfs send' streams. And to make this comparable in trustworthyness to pre-ZFS backup systems, we need a THIRD thing---a way to TEST the restore without disrupting the old-Solaris system in production, a restore-test we are convinced will expose the problems we know 'zfs recv' sometimes has including lazy-panic problems---and I think the send|recv architecture has painted us into a corner in terms of getting that since gobs of kernel code are involved in receiving streams so that there's no way to fully test a recv other than to make some room for it, recv it, then 'zfs destroy'. so... yeah. I guess the lack of 'zfs send' stream compatibility does make into shit my answer ``just use another zpool for backup. Tape's going out of fashion anyway.'' And when you add compatibility problems to the scenario, storing backups in zpool stream rather than 'zfs send' format no longer resolves the problem I raised before with the lack of recv-test. I guess the only thing we really have for backup is rsync --in-place --no-whole-file. ic I wouldn't have any serious concerns about backing up ic snapshots provided the stream version was on the tape label ic and I had a backup of the Solaris release (or a virtual ic machine) that produced them. I would have serious concerns doing that because of the numerous other problems I always talk about that you haven't mentioned. But, I don't wish for 'zfs send' to become a backup generator. I like it as is. Here are more important problems: * are zfs send and zfs recv fast enough now, post-b105? * endian-independence (fixed b105?) * toxic streams that panic the receiving system (AFAIK unfixed) though, if I had to add one more wish to that list, the next one would probably be more stream format compatibility across Solaris releases. Understand the limitations of your VM approach. Here is the way you get access to your data through it: * attach a huge amount of storage to the VM and create a zpool on it inside the VM * pass the streams through the VM and onto the pool, hoping none are corrupt or toxic since they're now stored and you no longer have the chance to re-send them. but nevermind that problem for now. * export the pool, shut down the VM [this is the only spot where backward-compatibility is guaranteed, and where it seems trustworthy so far] * import the pool on a newer Solaris * upgrade the pool and the filesystems in it so, you have to assign disks to the VM, zpool export, zpool import. If what you're trying to restore is tiny, you can make a file vdev. And if it's Everything, then you can destroy the production pool, recreate it inside the vm, u.s.w. No problem. But what if you're trying to restore something that uses 12 disks worth of space on your 48-disk production pool? You have free space for it on the production pool, but (1) you do not have 12 unassigned disks
Re: [zfs-discuss] [basic] zfs operations on zpool
Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us writes: I created a receptacle with zpool zpool create zbk raidz1 c5t0d0 c5t1d0 c5t2d0 (With compression turned on) As seen my zfs zfs list zbk NAME USED AVAIL REFER MOUNTPOINT zbk106G 50.5G 106G /zbk As seen by zpool zpool list zbk NAME SIZE USED AVAILCAP HEALTH ALTROOT zbk238G 158G 79.6G66% ONLINE - BobF wrote: Other than when dealing with the top zfs pools, and zfs filesystems, the answer to this is yes. If this was not the case, then the system would not be very useful. It sure wouldn't. That was first take but like I said I wasn't that confident about being right. Its looking like I botched the job already. My intent was to create one top level zfs files system in the pool. But after your helpful and explanatory reply I see I carelessly mixed things up so that I used `zfs create' where I should have used mkdir zfs list -r zbk NAME USED AVAIL REFER MOUNTPOINT zbk 106G 50.5G 106G /zbk zbk/mob1 101K 50.5G 28.0K /zbk/mob1 zbk/mob1/acronis 49.3K 50.5G 25.3K /zbk/mob1/acronis zbk/mob1/acronis/022009 24.0K 50.5G 24.0K /zbk/mob1/acronis/022009 zbk/mob1/ghost 24.0K 50.5G 24.0K /zbk/mob1/ghost ls -lR /zbk|grep '^/' /zbk: /zbk/chub: /zbk/chub/ghost: /zbk/chub/ghost/021909: /zbk/harvey: /zbk/harvey/ghost: /zbk/harvey/ghost/022009: /zbk/mob1: /zbk/mob1/acronis: /zbk/mob1/acronis/022009: /zbk/mob1/ghost: zfs rename zbk/hosts/mob1022009-full.tib zbk/hosts/mob1/022009-full.tib Probably the wrong move now that its clear how I screwed this up. I'm thinking something like this might clean things up? cd /rbk Starting with: ls -F . chub/ harvey/ mob1/ mob1MyBackup.tib zfs destroy -r mob1 mkdir -p mob1/acronis/022009/ mob1/ghost mv mob1MyBackup.tib mob1/acronis/022009/mob1_01.tib Is this about right... since there are no actual files under the zfs file system `mob1/', I can just get rid of it as shown above. And create the hierarchy I intended with standard tools mkdir and mv? I think I'll wait for a reply before I do any of that... ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Backing up ZFS snapshots
Miles Nordin wrote: ic I wouldn't have any serious concerns about backing up ic snapshots provided the stream version was on the tape label ic and I had a backup of the Solaris release (or a virtual ic machine) that produced them. I would have serious concerns doing that because of the numerous other problems I always talk about that you haven't mentioned. But, I don't wish for 'zfs send' to become a backup generator. I like it as is. Here are more important problems: * are zfs send and zfs recv fast enough now, post-b105? * endian-independence (fixed b105?) * toxic streams that panic the receiving system (AFAIK unfixed) We should see a resolution for this soon, I have have a support case open and I no have a reproducible test case. I haven't been able to panic any recent SXCE builds with the streams that panic Solaris 10. though, if I had to add one more wish to that list, the next one would probably be more stream format compatibility across Solaris releases. Luckily for us, they haven't broken it yet on a production release. They would give them selves a massive headache if they did. One point that has been overlooked is replication, I'm sure I'm not alone in sending older stream formats to newer staging servers. Understand the limitations of your VM approach. Here is the way you get access to your data through it: * attach a huge amount of storage to the VM and create a zpool on it inside the VM I currently use iSCSI. * pass the streams through the VM and onto the pool, hoping none are corrupt or toxic since they're now stored and you no longer have the chance to re-send them. but nevermind that problem for now. I receive the stream as well as archive it. * export the pool, shut down the VM [this is the only spot where backward-compatibility is guaranteed, and where it seems trustworthy so far] * import the pool on a newer Solaris * upgrade the pool and the filesystems in it Not necessary. so, you have to assign disks to the VM, zpool export, zpool import. If what you're trying to restore is tiny, you can make a file vdev. And if it's Everything, then you can destroy the production pool, recreate it inside the vm, u.s.w. No problem. But what if you're trying to restore something that uses 12 disks worth of space on your 48-disk production pool? You have free space for it on the production pool, but (1) you do not have 12 unassigned disks sitting around nor anywhere to mount all 12 at once, and (2) you do not have twice enough free space for it on the production pool so that you could use iSCSI or a file vdev on NFS, yo uonly have one times enough space for it. I don't do this for handy backups. We only do this to archive a filesystem. -- Ian. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [basic] zfs operations on zpool
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, Harry Putnam wrote: Probably the wrong move now that its clear how I screwed this up. I'm thinking something like this might clean things up? cd /rbk Starting with: ls -F . chub/ harvey/ mob1/ mob1MyBackup.tib zfs destroy -r mob1 mkdir -p mob1/acronis/022009/ mob1/ghost mv mob1MyBackup.tib mob1/acronis/022009/mob1_01.tib Is this about right... since there are no actual files under the zfs file system `mob1/', I can just get rid of it as shown above. And create the hierarchy I intended with standard tools mkdir and mv? You might want to think a bit more before you get started. While there is an implicit usable filesystem at the pool root ('/rbk'), there is considerable value with creating subordinate filesystems using 'zfs create' because then you will be able to manage them much better using different settings such as block sizes, mount points, quotas, and other goodies that ZFS provides. If the directories are for users, then being able to set a quota is quite useful since some users need a firewall to protect to ensure that they don't use all of the disk space. Note that you can set the mountpoint for any ZFS filesystem via the mountpoint property (see zfs manual page) and this will cause that filesystem to appear via the path you specify. Don't feel that the name of the pool needs to drive your directory heirarchy. In fact, it is wise if the pool name is not part of any of the paths used. By using the mountpoint property you can create any number of mounted directories directly off of root ('/'), or under any other directory. For example, you can easily set the mount path to /mydir. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Backing up ZFS snapshots
on Sat Feb 21 2009, Miles Nordin carton-AT-Ivy.NET wrote: da == David Abrahams d...@boostpro.com writes: ic == Ian Collins i...@ianshome.com writes: da disadvantage of the recommended approaches shows up when you da start taking advantage of ZFS to clone filesystems without da replicating storage. Using zfs send will avoid representing da the data twice Two or three people wanted S3 support, Amazon S3 support directly in ZFS? I'd like that, but I'm not sure what it looks like. There are already tools that will send / receive ZFS to Amazon S3. Is there something you can only do well if you own the filesystem code? but IMVHO maybe S3 is too expensive and is better applied to getting another decade out of aging, reliable operating systems, and ZFS architecture should work towards replacing S3 not toward pandering to it. Replacing S3? Many new ZFS users are convinced to try ZFS because they want to back up non-ZFS filesystems onto zpool's because it's better than tape, so that's not a crazy idea. Not crazy, unless you need to get the backups off-site. It's plausible to want one backup server with a big slow pool, deliberately running a Solaris release newer than anything else in your lab. Then have tens of Solaris's of various tooth-length 'zfs send'ing from many pools toward one pool on the backup server. The obvious way to move a filesystem rather than a pool from older Solaris to newer, is 'zfs send | zfs recv'. The obvious problem: this doesn't always work. Because they might break the send/recv format across versions. The less obvious problem: how do you restore? It's one thing to say, ``I want it to always work to zfs send from an older system to a newer,'' which we are NOT saying yet. To make restore work, we need to promise more: ``the format of the 'zfs send' stream depends only on the version number of the ZFS filesystem being sent, not on the zpool version and not on the build of the sending OS.'' That's a more aggressive compatibility guarantee than anyone's suggested so far, never mind what we have. Sure. But maybe send/recv aren't the right tools for this problem. I'm just looking for *a way* to avoid storing lots of backup copies of cloned filesystems; I'm not asking that it be called send/recv. -- Dave Abrahams BoostPro Computing http://www.boostpro.com ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
[zfs-discuss] Confused about zfs recv -d, apparently
First, it fails because the destination directory doesn't exist. Then it fails because it DOES exist. I really expected one of those to work. So, what am I confused about now? (Running 2008.11) # zpool import -R /backups/bup-ruin bup-ruin # zfs send -R z...@bup-20090222-054457utc | zfs receive -dv bup-ruin/fsfs/zp1 cannot receive: specified fs (bup-ruin/fsfs/zp1) does not exist # zfs create bup-ruin/fsfs/zp1 # zfs send -R z...@bup-20090222-054457utc | zfs receive -dv bup-ruin/fsfs/zp1 cannot receive new filesystem stream: destination 'bup-ruin/fsfs/zp1' exists must specify -F to overwrite it -- David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [basic] zfs operations on zpool
Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us writes: You might want to think a bit more before you get started. While there is an implicit usable filesystem at the pool root ('/rbk'), there is considerable value with creating subordinate filesystems using 'zfs create' because then you will be able to manage them much better using different settings such as block sizes, mount points, quotas, and other goodies that ZFS provides. If the directories are for users, then being able to set a quota is quite useful since some users need a firewall to protect to ensure that they don't use all of the disk space. Ahh I see. The users are not real users... just my home lan connecting to backup other machines onto the zfs pool. But I see your point. And considering the whole thing is experimental at this point; (I'm running zfs from a opensol install inside a vmware on windows xp, hoping to find out some of the gotchas and good practices before putting a real zfs server into operation on the home lan. I think I will scrub this setup leaving zbk/ as the main pool then create xfs filesystems like: zbk/HOST1 zbk/HOST2 zbk/HOST3 (etc) zbk/misc And set the HOST[123]/ and pub/ as the cifs shares, instead of the top level. That would give quite a bit more granularity.. maybe I'll learn a little more this way too. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss