Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: EVERY ward or branch has a little old man or lady who speaks in tongues every fast and testimony meeting! Usually they spew forth sermons about fire and brimstone. Of course, everyone understands what they are saying even before they speak, since we all expect it Much of scripture is devoted to descriptions of this fire and brimstone. I wonder why so few pay attention? Maybe the Lord made a mistake to include such negative, pessimistic stuff in the scriptures, do you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === A liberal in the Church is merely one who does not have a testimony. --President Harold B. Lee === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: Do we wait until Islam engulfs the nations and becomes a giant threat,before we encourage it to stand down and live peacefully among the nations of the world? John: Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become a giant threat that engulfs the nations? That seems rather unlikely to me regardless of we do or don't do. Dan: IIRC, there is a cleric in England that has declared his intention of making that country Islamic using whatever means necessary. Whether or not he succeeds is one thing, but part of my recollection is that he also spoke out justifying the 9/11 attacks. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam
At 23:18 11/8/2002 -0800, Stacey wrote: Where do the Mexicans align themselves? Certainly not at a border crossing! Till the ever-watchful / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
At 09:31 11/9/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: I was in one of the classrooms at Parirenwatwa Hospital (formerly Sir Sanford Fleming Hospital) in Harare, Zimbabwe, about 7 or 8 years ago, and saw a display of what happened when a janitor picked up a small vial of caesium powder and put it in his pocket (it was a lesson on the need for proper storage security -- this kind of incident would be unthinkable in an OECD country's hospital. One would hope, anyway). He only had it for a day before he gave it to a doctor, sparing of details How comforting. My office is sandwiched between a plant growth room and Cesium storage. Till the glow-worm / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] War against all of Islam
At 17:42 11/9/2002 -0600, St Paul not Minnesota wrote: Tell me the name of just one Muslim that does not despise the Jews and wish that their nation was dissolved? Munther Unes. A very fine gentleman if ever I have met one. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Flying Lessons (was Taliban in Pakistan)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc Schindler: Very good! Another week in Moose Jaw for our boy genius :-) Larry Jackson: I think he'll enjoy his fortnight with the Moose Javians. Marc: My cousin's husband ... is tired of rotary wing and wants to switch to fixed wing. Larry: I work for a place that modifies military aircraft. We call the helicopter folks our ceiling fan division. Marc: We put the base there because there's nothing to hit that's higher than a grain elevator) Larry: Except for that water tower five miles out on final approach. (Is Spruce Grove near Cold Lake?) Define close. Their ward is in one of our sister stakes, the Edmonton Bonnie Doon stake, but I would estimate it's a good 3 or 4 hour drive to the NE to Cherry Grove, the closest major city at the SW corner of the base (which, including the Primrose Lake Air Weapons Range, extends well into Saskatchewan -- probably about the size of Connecticut). Here's a map, which doesn't have a scaleso you can figure out how close Cold Lake is by seeing where the Cherry Grove ward is: http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/north_america/canada/AB_edmonton.gif As you can see, we're on the other side of Edmonton from Cherry Grove, so add an hour to get through greater Edmonton to the trip. Parkland Ward, which is our sister ward, is the one of which Mark Gregson is the bishop. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Removing Christianity from US history
These stories may or may not be true. How do you know? Many people think Washington cut down a cherry tree when he was a lad, too, but this story has been traced to a moral tale by a Protestant preacher, iirc, in the 19th century. Stacy Smith wrote: I want to see more of this kind of stuff. Where can I find more? Stacy. At 06:15 AM 11/11/2002 +, you wrote: http://www.abbottloop.org/alconweb/pol_news/mythafa.htm During the French and Indian War, the 23-year-old Washington was fighting with the British against the French who were allied with the Indians. On July 9, 1755, in the Battle of the Monongahela, the British regiments were ambushed by the French and Indians. Of the 86 British and Virginia officers, only Washington was not shot off his horse. After retreating to Maryland, Washington wrote his mother. After the battle was over I took off my jacket and I had four bullet holes through my jacket, but not a single bullet had touched me. I had several horses shot out from under me, but I was not hurt in any way. God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the battle. In 1770, Washington traveled back to the region and an old Indian chief, having heard Washington was back, traveled to meet him. The chief told Washington, You don't know me, but 15 years ago you and I were in these same woods. I commanded the Indians you were fighting that day. We saw you riding through the woods and knew you were a leader. If we could kill you we knew your troops would scatter, so I instructed my braves to fire at you. I personally fired at you 17 times. When I saw that none of our bullets had any effect on you, I told my braves to stop shooting. I have traveled all this way to meet the man God would not let die in battle. This spiritual account, and many others like it, used to be in our history textbooks. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Removing Christianity from US history
I realize that now after discussing this with Muhammad. Stacy. At 03:46 PM 11/11/2002 -0700, you wrote: These stories may or may not be true. How do you know? Many people think Washington cut down a cherry tree when he was a lad, too, but this story has been traced to a moral tale by a Protestant preacher, iirc, in the 19th century. Stacy Smith wrote: I want to see more of this kind of stuff. Where can I find more? Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Just War
In the Catholic Church the concept of a moral war was first set out by Augustine some 1600 years ago. His definition was somewhat harsher than our's, and also that of the modern RC Church. Steven Montgomery wrote: An interesting commentary by a Catholic scholar on just war. Note especially the emphasis he puts on non-combatant immunity considering our recent discussions, pro and con, regarding this issue: http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=11136 -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] . . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests of the world.--John Taylor / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Madsen claims
Here's the other reference-- Joseph Smith made many prophetic statements that last to our day. Some of them seemed preposterous at the time. Lillie Freeze recalls one such. He said the time would come when none but the women of the Latter-day Saints would be willing to bear children.fn In large measure this is already happening today-before our eyes. YWJ 2 (November 1890): 81. One can refuse to bear (beget) children . And one can refuse to bear (love and nurture) begotten children. Both refusals are epidemic in our time. (Truman G. Madsen, Joseph Smith the Prophet [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1989], 39.) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Madsen claims
the huntingtons were converts from new hampshire, and arrived in the kirtland period. dimick's sister zina is one of the famous zinas my daughter is named after. Jim Cobabe wrote: Stephen Beecroft wrote: --- 1. Lillian Freeze (Lilian Freise? something like that) recorded that Joseph Smith said that the day would come that only Latter-day Saint women would want to have children. --- Can't locate such a refernce. Will continue searching. --- 2. William Dimick (Demick? Dimik?) was told by Joseph that he would never taste of death. --- This reference appears to be to William Huntington, and his father, Dimick Huntington. The Huntingtons were associates with Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. After he was instrumental in delivering Joseph from the mobs in Nauvoo, Joseph promised William that he would never taste of death. Madsen refers to this in a footnote-- William Huntington went west with the exodus and settled eventually in Springville, Utah. One night, forty-three years after the Nauvoo incident, just after going to bed he was conversing with his wife in the darkness. He said something and she replied. She said something and he did not reply. After two or three repetitions she lighted a lamp. Without a sigh or a shudder he had died. The family believed this was the fulfillment of Joseph's promise, which is universalized in the Doctrine and Covenants: And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not taste of death, for it shall be sweet unto them; and they that die not in me, wo unto them, for their death is bitter (DC 42:46-47). See diary of Oliver B. Huntington, vol. 2, p. 271, entry of March 19, 1887. (Truman G. Madsen, Joseph Smith the Prophet [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1989], .) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] War against all of Islam
I know an entire family that would fit that description. Their 8-year-old daughter is in my daughter's class at school. We became friends when both girls were in kindergarten together. Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: At 17:42 11/9/2002 -0600, St Paul not Minnesota wrote: Tell me the name of just one Muslim that does not despise the Jews and wish that their nation was dissolved? Munther Unes. A very fine gentleman if ever I have met one. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this coming weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th. He is going to fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family automobile to Prince Rupert and putting it on the ferry. I thought I would fly down there and help her drive back. So... I'm going to be in Provo from about 4:00 PM Saturday, until I hit the road for Canada on Wednesday morning, Nov. 20th. I've got to be to the ferry in Prince Rupert by Sunday the 24th at 4:30 PM. By my calculations it is going to be a 1287 miles trip from Provo to Prince Rupert by shortest route. But the route passes pretty close to Cardston and Edmonton. I wonder if I should breeze through and say hi to Tom and the two Emontonions on my way. It would only add about 300 miles to my trip, and I'm going to get to Prince Rupert about a day early anyway. It sure would be fun to meet Tom, Marc and Mark face to face. Anyone in the Provo-SLC area that would like to go to McDonald's with me or something? Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
Steven Montgomery wrote: At 04:11 PM 11/11/2002, Marc wrote: Here in Utah in part I think it's related to the fact that the Democratic Party has in the last 20 years waned to the point where it really is almost not a factor in our political life right now. And I think there is a feeling that that is not healthy at all -- that as a state we suffer in different ways. But certainly any time you don't have the dialogue and the give-and-take that the democratic process provides, you're going to be poorer for it in the long run. Political parties come and go. Shortly after the U.S. was founded there were the Whigs and the Federalists. So now we have Republicans and Democrats--so what? The main point Elder Jensen was making imo is the dialogue. If the Democratic party goes by the wayside there will always be another party willing to step in and take its place. And that's fair enough. It was the lack of creative tension you have when there's more than one party, and also the fact that the Church needs to spread its bets, so to speak, that I think are their main concerns. I don't think this is about Democrats and Repubs. per se. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
After much pondering, Stephen Beecroft favored us with: If you decide to take the coastal route, stop by and visit. I'll even show you around Microsoft's campus, though I can't get in any buildings... I wish I could, Stephen. But there isn't any coastal route from the Seattle area to Prince Rupert. It means driving hundreds of miles inland to go north in BC only to drive hundreds of miles back to the coast. You mean you can't get in any of the building because they laid you off? Shame on them. Now that you are no longer working for Microsoft, do you still have the tenacious loyalty to them that you used to feel? How is the job hunt going? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- One party domination is in direct defiance of the Brethren. Defiance? Institutions are not capable of defiance, only individuals. Which individuals do you believe are in defiance of the Brethren? Well, for starters the Republican congressman who publicly criticized Pres. Jensen for his remarks. Also, you've missed a quite legitimate parsing of my sentence. When one says x is in defiance of y, that implies that belief in x is in defiance of y. I think that's pretty standard English. The leaders of the Republican party in Utah? Any Utah Republicans? Any LDS Republicans? Please clarify your accusation, so I can tell whether I and my family are included in it. Tribune: What is the attitude of church leaders toward the lingering sentiment among some Mormons -- apparently stemming back to comments made by former LDS President Ezra Taft Benson -- that it is difficult to be a good LDS member and a Democrat? I recall that statement as being liberal Democrat, though of course I could be mistaken. But even if I am correct, this is after all the Tribune we're talking about, so it's rather naive to expect truth or balance. And I trust you read Pres. Jensen's answer to the question? I think the reason Pres. Jensen was assigned to talk to the Trib and not the D.N. was precisely because of the Trib's reputation; it was sending Daniel into the lion's den, and is all the more useful, politically, for that reason. That is, no one can accuse him of taking only soft ball lob shots. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
Maybe. But that will be then. This is now, and we're to listen to the counsel we're given now. Jim Cobabe wrote: One party rule will eventually fulfil the prophetic vision of early Church leaders. There will be only one party that follows the Lord. Everyone else will follow the adversary. Ultimately this is the only partisan association that matters. While this may not be the pattern for this day, the time is near at hand. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
John, I'm living at my folk's place in central Utah these days. Not doing much of anything--I've just been hanging around half-heartedly looking for gainful employment. I can come and find you just about any time. It would be great fun to get together--how about a temple session at Provo, or Timpanogos? --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
Marc A. Schindler wrote: Let us know what you decide, and I'm sure I speak for the 3 of us when I say we'll do what we can to accommodate you. I'm probably the closest to the highway you'll be on (the Yellowhead) but Mark's not too far off, and Cardston's about a 45 minute side trip each way (from the main highway south from Lethbridge to Montana). The trip from Provo to Cardston takes 12 hours if you only stop for gas and perhaps one or two very fast pottie breaks at road side rest areas. If you tempt fate and have a very fast car you can do it in 11 hours. If you are a young person in love and out of touch with reality you might even shave a half hour off that. If you are the type that stops to eat it will take you 13 or 14 hours. If you stop to smell the roses well plan for two days. There are a wide variety of routes with varying advantages and disadvantages. Basically, the best thing to do is take the I-15 from Provo to at least Wolf Creek Mt. Just north of Wolf Creek you can cut off for the shortest route to Canada (not necessarily the quickest). If you are interested in the quickest you carry on through Great Falls to the border. There are a couple of places to cut off when Cardston is your goal to save a few minutes, but the Coutts/Sweetgrass border crossing on I-15 is the only 24 hour port of entry in the vicinity and going there reduces the complication of possibly sleeping in a car in the Montana wilderness waiting for the border to open in the distant morning. After crossing the border at Coutts/Sweetgrass you get to Cardston either by taking highway #501 west after going north from the border about 12 miles. Or you can go about 20 miles north and cut off west to Raymond, then south to Cardston. But that's longer and the road isn't any better imho. If you stretched your day out on Wednesday to reach Cardston you would find beds and breakfast at the Matkin home. The next day it would be a 6 hour drive to Edmonton. I'm no expert on how long it takes to get from Edmonton to Prince Rupert. But it would probably take a monster day (we used to drive from here to Vancouver in a single day, when we didn't know any better and I suppose it would be a comparable journey). If it stretched out for two days you would get to Prince Rupert by Sat. night. Which builds a little slack into your itinerary in case you have a flat tire, get hit by food poisoning from eating tainted deep fried chicken gizzards at the Flying J in Rocker, Montana (just west of beautiful downtown Butte) get lost, encounter normal winter driving conditions, or stop to smell the roses. Tom John W. Redelfs wrote: It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this coming weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th. He is going to fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family automobile to Prince Rupert and putting it on the ferry. I thought I would fly down there and help her drive back. So... I'm going to be in Provo from about 4:00 PM Saturday, until I hit the road for Canada on Wednesday morning, Nov. 20th. I've got to be to the ferry in Prince Rupert by Sunday the 24th at 4:30 PM. By my calculations it is going to be a 1287 miles trip from Provo to Prince Rupert by shortest route. But the route passes pretty close to Cardston and Edmonton. I wonder if I should breeze through and say hi to Tom and the two Emontonions on my way. It would only add about 300 miles to my trip, and I'm going to get to Prince Rupert about a day early anyway. It sure would be fun to meet Tom, Marc and Mark face to face. Anyone in the Provo-SLC area that would like to go to McDonald's with me or something? Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /
[ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)
Knowing no one is perfect, I try to judge a person for all that they try to do, even if their choices end up occasionally being wrong. Truman chose not to continue the Korean War into China, because he realized a few things: First, they outnumbered us by hundreds of millions. Second, we had just finished one world war, and most Americans and our allies weren't ready for another. Third, we were there under UN authorization, and they had not authorized entering China. Fourth, as much as I like MacArthur, he disobeyed prime military orders about speaking out against the Commander in Chief, and the president's orders to stop, in the press. MacArthur pushed, and Truman didn't blink. Truman fired him because he was forced to do so. Had Truman left him in, he would have lost tons of political capital and integrity. We can attack individuals for the choices they made through hindsight, or we can realize that such decisions are complicated. Chaos theory states that a butterfly flapping its wings today in China can cause storms in America in two weeks. Do we condemn Truman for limiting the Korean war, yet then you condemn George W Bush for seeking to extend the war on terrorism to Iraq? Just where is the consistency? Do we condemn Reagan for ending the Cold War? Because there is no longer the two major powers balancing each other, it opened a vacuum for the terrorists to step into. Personally, I think I prefer having the soviets balancing our freedom, because at least we knew where they were and what to expect of them. They didn't blow themselves up in order to gain heaven. Or do we praise Reagan for his efforts in the short term, knowing that no one can know the long term effects, good or ill; nor can we know what effects would occur if we did nothing. If you were in an airplane and somehow had a valid prediction that your plane would hit another plane and go down in flames, what would you do? Would you turn the plane around? Yet, what if that is what causes the plane to crash? Do you do nothing, and hope that you don't end up in the wrong place at the wrong time? You see the conundrum? All we can see is the short term. Truman couldn't anticipate 50 years ago that we would go through such a long Cold War, or a period of freedom for those nations. Wilford Woodruff divided the nations after WWI, including making a new nation called Yugoslavia. How was he to know that he was combining ethnic groups that had been trying to kill each other for centuries, and that his carving of nations would be affecting us almost a century later? It is easy to condemn in hindsight. It is very hard to predict the long term outcomes of any choice. Now, with Jimmy Carter (I'm watching his Bio on PBS right now), we can condemn him on many things, because he was wishy washy. He didn't make a real choice, and dragged things down. In running for Governor, he played the racists and the black side of the issues. In his run for presidency, he said he was liberal, centrist, and conservative, all at once. Ford condemned his wishy washiness, and it continued through the entire presidency. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR:Truman fired MacArthur. It is unlikely that he did anything else right. All MacArthur wanted was permission to win the Korean War. He should have quit before Truman fired him. But Truman was a first class villain. My feelings about Truman are 180 degrees out of phase with those I feel for Washington, Reagan, etc. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] War against Islam
Islam is gaining power in much of the Western world. Already in the Norway, they make up 10% of the population, which is a huge part of the voting bloc. With such a power bloc like that, politicians are now being soft on Islamic fundamentalists, and are even condemning US efforts against terrorism.f Islamic groups are encouraging more to move into the nation, so they can become an even greater power there. Other nations in Europe are feeling the same effects of migration and conversion to Islam. Just look at who some of the more popular terrorists have been: converted Americans and Europeans. They are exporting their religion, which is not the terrible thing. The terrible thing is that they are also exporting their jihad. Muslim schools in England and Europe are now found to be teaching anti-Western sentiments. Islamic calendars with Sept 11 marked with burning airplanes were found in some of these schools after the 9/11 tragedy. Their Jihad is on the same level as the Christian Crusades. Those who went on the Crusades were promised everlasting life. They were told to use whatever means to obtain the holy city. And they did. They were ruthless, killing men, women and children. They even toppled Constantinople, an Orthodox Christian city! So it is with the Jihad today. It is a holy war. In holy war, or a Crusade, people will do whatever is necessary to obtain victory and heaven. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe John: Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become a giant threat that engulfs the nations? That seems rather unlikely to me regardless of we do or don't do. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
Don't worry, John, they all look the same anyway ;-) But it is a nice, green campus -- kind of like a university. Stephen was a good host when I visited there. Sadly illness has prevented return trips, although my minister has been down since to speak at the Microsoft world government leaders conference, and normally I'm part of his retinue. I like Seattle (except for the traffic). I'm one of the few people who, during the all too brief time I lived there, actually enjoyed the climate. Stephen Beecroft wrote: If you decide to take the coastal route, stop by and visit. I'll even show you around Microsoft's campus, though I can't get in any buildings... Stephen John W. Redelfs wrote: It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this coming weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th. He is going to fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family automobile to Prince Rupert and putting it on the ferry. I thought I would fly down there and help her drive back. So... I'm going to be in Provo from about 4:00 PM Saturday, until I hit the road for Canada on Wednesday morning, Nov. 20th. I've got to be to the ferry in Prince Rupert by Sunday the 24th at 4:30 PM. By my calculations it is going to be a 1287 miles trip from Provo to Prince Rupert by shortest route. But the route passes pretty close to Cardston and Edmonton. I wonder if I should breeze through and say hi to Tom and the two Emontonions on my way. It would only add about 300 miles to my trip, and I'm going to get to Prince Rupert about a day early anyway. It sure would be fun to meet Tom, Marc and Mark face to face. Anyone in the Provo-SLC area that would like to go to McDonald's with me or something? Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] scriptures are not secular?
The saints tend to magnify the doctrines and truths that the living prophet does. Pres Hinckley speaks little about fire and brimstone (except for abusive husbands and fathers), and speaks much on hope and joy. He is giving us the direction we should generally go, while not forgetting what his predecessors have taught. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Much of scripture is devoted to descriptions of this fire and brimstone. I wonder why so few pay attention? Maybe the Lord made a mistake to include such negative, pessimistic stuff in the scriptures, do you think? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
Edmonton to Prince Rupert depends a lot on the weather. Good weather -- probably 10 hours. Bad weather...well, who knows. The freeway from Edmonton (the Yellowhead) peters out around Hinton, as I recall, but it's still good highway through Jasper National Park and in B.C. BC speed limits are only 90 kph, though. Tom Matkin wrote: Marc A. Schindler wrote: Let us know what you decide, and I'm sure I speak for the 3 of us when I say we'll do what we can to accommodate you. I'm probably the closest to the highway you'll be on (the Yellowhead) but Mark's not too far off, and Cardston's about a 45 minute side trip each way (from the main highway south from Lethbridge to Montana). The trip from Provo to Cardston takes 12 hours if you only stop for gas and perhaps one or two very fast pottie breaks at road side rest areas. If you tempt fate and have a very fast car you can do it in 11 hours. If you are a young person in love and out of touch with reality you might even shave a half hour off that. If you are the type that stops to eat it will take you 13 or 14 hours. If you stop to smell the roses well plan for two days. There are a wide variety of routes with varying advantages and disadvantages. Basically, the best thing to do is take the I-15 from Provo to at least Wolf Creek Mt. Just north of Wolf Creek you can cut off for the shortest route to Canada (not necessarily the quickest). If you are interested in the quickest you carry on through Great Falls to the border. There are a couple of places to cut off when Cardston is your goal to save a few minutes, but the Coutts/Sweetgrass border crossing on I-15 is the only 24 hour port of entry in the vicinity and going there reduces the complication of possibly sleeping in a car in the Montana wilderness waiting for the border to open in the distant morning. After crossing the border at Coutts/Sweetgrass you get to Cardston either by taking highway #501 west after going north from the border about 12 miles. Or you can go about 20 miles north and cut off west to Raymond, then south to Cardston. But that's longer and the road isn't any better imho. If you stretched your day out on Wednesday to reach Cardston you would find beds and breakfast at the Matkin home. The next day it would be a 6 hour drive to Edmonton. I'm no expert on how long it takes to get from Edmonton to Prince Rupert. But it would probably take a monster day (we used to drive from here to Vancouver in a single day, when we didn't know any better and I suppose it would be a comparable journey). If it stretched out for two days you would get to Prince Rupert by Sat. night. Which builds a little slack into your itinerary in case you have a flat tire, get hit by food poisoning from eating tainted deep fried chicken gizzards at the Flying J in Rocker, Montana (just west of beautiful downtown Butte) get lost, encounter normal winter driving conditions, or stop to smell the roses. Tom John W. Redelfs wrote: It looks like I'm going to make a whirlwind visit to SLC-Provo this coming weekend. My son-in-law, Jeff, has taken a job with the University of Alaska in Juneau and has to report for work on the 19th. He is going to fly up and leave my daughter with the job of driving the family automobile to Prince Rupert and putting it on the ferry. I thought I would fly down there and help her drive back. So... I'm going to be in Provo from about 4:00 PM Saturday, until I hit the road for Canada on Wednesday morning, Nov. 20th. I've got to be to the ferry in Prince Rupert by Sunday the 24th at 4:30 PM. By my calculations it is going to be a 1287 miles trip from Provo to Prince Rupert by shortest route. But the route passes pretty close to Cardston and Edmonton. I wonder if I should breeze through and say hi to Tom and the two Emontonions on my way. It would only add about 300 miles to my trip, and I'm going to get to Prince Rupert about a day early anyway. It sure would be fun to meet Tom, Marc and Mark face to face. Anyone in the Provo-SLC area that would like to go to McDonald's with me or something? Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of
Re: [ZION] War against Islam
I agree that the Islamists are gaining power. Stacy. At 09:25 PM 11/11/2002 -0600, you wrote: Islam is gaining power in much of the Western world. Already in the Norway, they make up 10% of the population, which is a huge part of the voting bloc. With such a power bloc like that, politicians are now being soft on Islamic fundamentalists, and are even condemning US efforts against terrorism.f Islamic groups are encouraging more to move into the nation, so they can become an even greater power there. Other nations in Europe are feeling the same effects of migration and conversion to Islam. Just look at who some of the more popular terrorists have been: converted Americans and Europeans. They are exporting their religion, which is not the terrible thing. The terrible thing is that they are also exporting their jihad. Muslim schools in England and Europe are now found to be teaching anti-Western sentiments. Islamic calendars with Sept 11 marked with burning airplanes were found in some of these schools after the 9/11 tragedy. Their Jihad is on the same level as the Christian Crusades. Those who went on the Crusades were promised everlasting life. They were told to use whatever means to obtain the holy city. And they did. They were ruthless, killing men, women and children. They even toppled Constantinople, an Orthodox Christian city! So it is with the Jihad today. It is a holy war. In holy war, or a Crusade, people will do whatever is necessary to obtain victory and heaven. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe John: Do you really think there is any danger that Islam could become a giant threat that engulfs the nations? That seems rather unlikely to me regardless of we do or don't do. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] One Party Rule?
I understand that the Church does not endorse any political policy, except in cases where a moral issue is involved. There is a strong effort to avoid the suggestion that the platform of a particular political party represents or has the unilateral backing of the Church. This has been the policy of the Church as long as I have been aware. I do not recall any general Church statments from the First Presidency that have mentioned any particular concern or direction with regard to partisan politics. It has long been my impression that we should deliberate on important political matters independent of any partisan considerations. To fulfill this directive Church members are encouraged to be personally involved in local politics. That has been the extent of the counsel. Elder Jensen, a Church General Authority and Utah Democrat, in a statement to the media, reemphasized this point. He also shared a personal concern of some of the brethren about the possible unwanted ill effects stemming from lack of political diversity in the Utah political scene. He expressed the thought that it was unfortunate for Church members to have unjustified negative impressions of the Democratic party, since some good people choose to affiliate therein.h He did not, however, suggest in any way for members to support Democratic partisan policy, split themselves evenly between parties, join the Democrats, or vote for Democrat candidates, since that would have contradicted other points of his statement, and the long-standing general counsel. Elder Jensen did not elaborate about which brethren he was referring to, nor did he develop this thought much further, and I don't recall any other statements from the Church augmenting his brief reference. What I got from his statement was that it's just fine for Church members to be Democrats, if they so choose. And it's also fine if they choose something else. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
