Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-08 Thread Jon Spencer
Just to be clear, I was making fun of your statement.  You say that we are
the laughingstock of the world, and I just laugh at that (Ha ha! :-).  The
US is in a very difficult position of having sufficient power to destroy
most any enemy, but having no desire to simply crush an entire country (and
properly so).  Thus, little fleas can, for a time, seemingly become the
mouse that roared.  But GW is clearly a lot smarter than you or others who
are either eager to see him fail or who are simply our enemies think that he
is.  I just listened to the speeches concerning the passage of the UN
resolution against Iraq, which passed the UNSC unanimously.  people like you
say It took 8 weeks!  What a jerk GW is.  However, I see a clever strategy
that allowed others to make their public stands and be able to announce that
they held back the US, while the US got exactly what it wanted.  Even SYRIA
voted for it, for heaven's sake!

The US would not go into Iraq until Dec - Mar, so there is plenty of time.
The US has made it clear to Saddam that either he completely disarms or he
is toast - there is not confusion there; Bush did an excellent job of
letting him know that, and of getting world support for his program.  There
is plenty of time now for the inspections to either succeed or fail.

People in general, and Americans in particular, want thinks NOW - they lack
patience.  In this case, referencing your comments, he who laughs last,
laughs best!  And, whatever we can do to bring happiness to the rest of the
world is EXACTLY what we should do! :-)

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

 No, I am not laughing at LDS as you suppose.  I am laughing at American
 leadership.

 Stacy.

 At 09:35 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:

 Of course!  I understood you completely.  My statement still stands.
What a
 narrow view of the charter of our church to think that we only desire to
 bring happiness to the select few! :-)
 
 Jon
 
 Stacy Smith wrote:
 
   I didn't mean LDS; I meant us as a larger part of Americans.
  
   Stacy.
  
   At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:
  
   Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all,
 bringing
   happiness to the world is an important role.
   
   Jon
   
   Stacy Smith said with great mirth:
   
   We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
   including me.
   
   Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-08 Thread Jon Spencer
I expect that sometime in the future, sooner or later, the power of the US
will dwindle and someone else will rise to preeminence.  That will clearly
be a hard pill to swallow.

But it hasn't happened yet, so let's not worry too much about it.

Jon

Marc A. Schindler wrote in part:

There's an article in the latest Atlantic Monthly that is kind of related to
this.
I don't go as far as the author does in his theme, which is that a renascent
Europe
will eventually come to eclipse the US (I have a hard time seeing how that's
going
to happen), but it's an interesting article nonetheless, and it's online:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/11/kupchan.htm

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-08 Thread Jon Spencer
You sexist pig!  That should have been she he

Jon

Paul Osborne gloatingly wrote:
 he he

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-08 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

Indeed. The article says it may well take a century for the neo-Europe to 
rise.

It didn't take that long for the Third Reich.  --JWR

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[ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-08 Thread Gary Smith
I was listening to talk radio today, and they played some stuff from last
night's FrontLine (PBS). They had a newsman slip into Iraq and he was
interviewing people. They were describing the slaughters going on there.
One woman said that her village was forced to an execution. They had to
watch 15 women being beheaded by sword. Only a couple were prostitutes,
most were doctors and school teachers.  
I think that in the long run, the majority of Iraqis (especially the
women) will be as happy to have us come as did the Afghani women.  Today
we finished rebuilding a school for girls in one of the major Afghan
cities. It has been closed since the Taliban took over. Afghanistan has
one of the largest death rates for child bearing (7 in 100), because
women aren't allowed to see doctors. We are training dozens of midwives
to help inthe deliveries.
I'd say that we are saving many of these people, just as we saved Europe
from itself in WWII.  Thanks to us, Europe is primarily democratic and
the people live decent lives. This is now beginning to occur in Russia
and Eastern Europe. And perhaps we can export it to more of the world as
we fight terrorism (which I am convinced Saddam is involved with).
You'll note that Pres Bush has been working with the UN, and in fact the
UN Security Council voted unanimously today (including Syria). That
definitely shows that Pres Bush is speaking tough in order to get the
rest of the world to move a little, yet he's still compromising with
them.  
Iraq now has a month to disarm, or the UN can take action. I think that
is very fair.

In WWII, we had to fight on several fronts. We didn't just attack Japan
and leave Germany and Italy alone until we finished with Japan. We fought
them all at once. We still have things to do in Afghanistan, but that
doesn't mean we aren't ready to select additional targets in the war of
terrorism.
K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free.  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-08 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Whaddya mean we?  Actually the UN and European aid agencies from Sweden, Norway
and the Netherlands in particular are the ones who have been building the schools
and training doctors. And Medecins sans Frontieres is not a US agency so far as I
know.  You're helping, yes, but spread a bit of credit around where it belongs.

Gary Smith wrote:

 I was listening to talk radio today, and they played some stuff from last
 night's FrontLine (PBS). They had a newsman slip into Iraq and he was
 interviewing people. They were describing the slaughters going on there.
 One woman said that her village was forced to an execution. They had to
 watch 15 women being beheaded by sword. Only a couple were prostitutes,
 most were doctors and school teachers.
 I think that in the long run, the majority of Iraqis (especially the
 women) will be as happy to have us come as did the Afghani women.  Today
 we finished rebuilding a school for girls in one of the major Afghan
 cities. It has been closed since the Taliban took over. Afghanistan has
 one of the largest death rates for child bearing (7 in 100), because
 women aren't allowed to see doctors. We are training dozens of midwives
 to help inthe deliveries.
 I'd say that we are saving many of these people, just as we saved Europe
 from itself in WWII.  Thanks to us, Europe is primarily democratic and
 the people live decent lives. This is now beginning to occur in Russia
 and Eastern Europe. And perhaps we can export it to more of the world as
 we fight terrorism (which I am convinced Saddam is involved with).
 You'll note that Pres Bush has been working with the UN, and in fact the
 UN Security Council voted unanimously today (including Syria). That
 definitely shows that Pres Bush is speaking tough in order to get the
 rest of the world to move a little, yet he's still compromising with
 them.
 Iraq now has a month to disarm, or the UN can take action. I think that
 is very fair.

 In WWII, we had to fight on several fronts. We didn't just attack Japan
 and leave Germany and Italy alone until we finished with Japan. We fought
 them all at once. We still have things to do in Afghanistan, but that
 doesn't mean we aren't ready to select additional targets in the war of
 terrorism.
 K'aya K'ama,
 Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
 .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
 No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free.  -
 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 

 Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-08 Thread Stacy Smith
Then we will have to practically police the world.  I don't think that is 
appropriate.  Why weren't we sending money overseas to help the people in 
those countries make better lives instead of trying to make huge profits in 
this country as businessmen?

Stacy.

At 06:37 PM 11/08/2002 -0600, you wrote:

I was listening to talk radio today, and they played some stuff from last
night's FrontLine (PBS). They had a newsman slip into Iraq and he was
interviewing people. They were describing the slaughters going on there.
One woman said that her village was forced to an execution. They had to
watch 15 women being beheaded by sword. Only a couple were prostitutes,
most were doctors and school teachers.
I think that in the long run, the majority of Iraqis (especially the
women) will be as happy to have us come as did the Afghani women.  Today
we finished rebuilding a school for girls in one of the major Afghan
cities. It has been closed since the Taliban took over. Afghanistan has
one of the largest death rates for child bearing (7 in 100), because
women aren't allowed to see doctors. We are training dozens of midwives
to help inthe deliveries.
I'd say that we are saving many of these people, just as we saved Europe
from itself in WWII.  Thanks to us, Europe is primarily democratic and
the people live decent lives. This is now beginning to occur in Russia
and Eastern Europe. And perhaps we can export it to more of the world as
we fight terrorism (which I am convinced Saddam is involved with).
You'll note that Pres Bush has been working with the UN, and in fact the
UN Security Council voted unanimously today (including Syria). That
definitely shows that Pres Bush is speaking tough in order to get the
rest of the world to move a little, yet he's still compromising with
them.
Iraq now has a month to disarm, or the UN can take action. I think that
is very fair.

In WWII, we had to fight on several fronts. We didn't just attack Japan
and leave Germany and Italy alone until we finished with Japan. We fought
them all at once. We still have things to do in Afghanistan, but that
doesn't mean we aren't ready to select additional targets in the war of
terrorism.
K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free.  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Marc A. Schindler


Jon Spencer wrote:

 We didn't want to upset the UN, now, did we?

 Actually, we did have an agreement with Iraq to implement full inspections,
 and he did agree to get rid of all of the Iraqi WoMM, although I can't tell
 you why we believed him.  But certainly, we can't now.

 We are now more concerned because he has had quite some time to implement
 more weapons outside of our ability to inspect, and he has quite a bit of
 money to do so, given the trade he has with our European allies in the UN.


Ahem. The US bought 795 million barrels of crude oil last year from Iraq. Don't
blame Europe.
(as opposed to 1,611 mb from Saudi Arabia, the largest supplier of crude, and
1,356 mb from Canada, the 3rd largest supplier of crude; Iraq was #6)
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we don’t want
a world of engineers.” – Sir Winston Churchill (1950)

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Stacy Smith
We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans, 
including me.

Stacy.

At 01:13 AM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote:



Jon Spencer wrote:

 We didn't want to upset the UN, now, did we?

 Actually, we did have an agreement with Iraq to implement full inspections,
 and he did agree to get rid of all of the Iraqi WoMM, although I can't tell
 you why we believed him.  But certainly, we can't now.

 We are now more concerned because he has had quite some time to implement
 more weapons outside of our ability to inspect, and he has quite a bit of
 money to do so, given the trade he has with our European allies in 
the UN.


Ahem. The US bought 795 million barrels of crude oil last year from Iraq. 
Don't
blame Europe.
(as opposed to 1,611 mb from Saudi Arabia, the largest supplier of crude, and
1,356 mb from Canada, the 3rd largest supplier of crude; Iraq was #6)
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; 
character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we 
don’t want
a world of engineers.” ­ Sir Winston Churchill (1950)

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s 
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Jon Spencer
NOW we're in the spirit of things!  :-)

Noj

Stacy Smith wrote:

 Maybe not so rhetorical as really sarcastic.
 
 Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Jon Spencer
Ahem, it is embarrassing when you dissimulate.  We bought oil through the
oil for food program, wherein the money is carefully tracked.  And you are
not so stupid as to not know that I am talking about the other type of
transactions that these countries agreed not to do.  Or am I incorrect in
that assumption?

Jon

Marc A. Schindler disemulated:


Ahem. The US bought 795 million barrels of crude oil last year from Iraq.
Don't
blame Europe.
(as opposed to 1,611 mb from Saudi Arabia, the largest supplier of crude,
and
1,356 mb from Canada, the 3rd largest supplier of crude; Iraq was #6)

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Jon Spencer
Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all, bringing
happiness to the world is an important role.

Jon

Stacy Smith said with great mirth:

We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
including me.

Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Stacy Smith
I didn't mean LDS; I meant us as a larger part of Americans.

Stacy.

At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:


Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all, bringing
happiness to the world is an important role.

Jon

Stacy Smith said with great mirth:

We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
including me.

Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Stacy Smith
P.S.:  I meant that remark rather scornfully.

Stacy.

At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:


Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all, bringing
happiness to the world is an important role.

Jon

Stacy Smith said with great mirth:

We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
including me.

Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Jon Spencer
Of course!  I understood you completely.  My statement still stands.  What a
narrow view of the charter of our church to think that we only desire to
bring happiness to the select few! :-)

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

 I didn't mean LDS; I meant us as a larger part of Americans.

 Stacy.

 At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:

 Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all,
bringing
 happiness to the world is an important role.
 
 Jon
 
 Stacy Smith said with great mirth:
 
 We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
 including me.
 
 Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Jon Spencer
And as we are taught by the Lord, I am turning that scorn into a blessing to
the world!

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

 P.S.:  I meant that remark rather scornfully.

 Stacy.

 At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:

 Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all,
bringing
 happiness to the world is an important role.
 
 Jon
 
 Stacy Smith said with great mirth:
 
 We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
 including me.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread John W. Redelfs
After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:

We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans, 
including me.

It is hard to imagine who our dignity could be any further ravaged than it 
already is, thanks to Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
You know what would make a good story?  Something
about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's
real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I wouldn't say laughingstock, but when you're an elephant in a world of mice, the
mice get nervous, even when the elephant is kindly disposed towards them.

There's an article in the latest Atlantic Monthly that is kind of related to this.
I don't go as far as the author does in his theme, which is that a renascent Europe
will eventually come to eclipse the US (I have a hard time seeing how that's going
to happen), but it's an interesting article nonetheless, and it's online:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/11/kupchan.htm

Incidentally, on the same site are a series of articles, including a very
insightful one by James Fallows, on what would happen *after* an Iraqi war. It's
the cover article, in fact, showing Uncle Sam straining under the weight of a
smouldering 51st state.  There's also a hilarious comparison of movie
presidents (Alan Alda in Canadian Bacon is rated the worst).

Stacy Smith wrote:

 We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
 including me.

 Stacy.

 At 01:13 AM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote:


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we don’t want a
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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Dan R Allen



Stacy:
The thing that gets me is this:  If we're all of a sudden so concerned
about Saddam's nuclear and biological weapons abilities, why weren't we as
concerned in 1992?

Dan:
Clinton

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-07 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I don't think so. This is something George III inherited from his Daddy, I'm
afraid. After all, the Clinton presidency pursued the USS Cole case with as much
vigour as any Republican president would have. But Clinton didn't need to turn it
into a domestic election issue.

Dan R Allen wrote:

 Stacy:
 The thing that gets me is this:  If we're all of a sudden so concerned
 about Saddam's nuclear and biological weapons abilities, why weren't we as
 concerned in 1992?

 Dan:
 Clinton

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of malleable truth

2002-11-06 Thread Stacy Smith
The thing that gets me is this:  If we're all of a sudden so concerned 
about Saddam's nuclear and biological weapons abilities, why weren't we as 
concerned in 1992?

Stacy.

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