Re: [ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
My sentiments exactly! Stacy. At 02:50 PM 11/05/2003 -0900, you wrote: Gerald Smith wrote: Your list is doctrinal. But once one begins scratching the surface of these ideas, we leave the area of doctrine and enter into speculation. For example, 1. There is a God with a body, but was he a Savior on his own planet? I don't know. 2. Is Christ the savior of just this world, all the universe? What? I don't know. 3. Was Joseph Smith infallible? If not, which of his statements are not prophetic? I don't know. 4. What parts of the Bible have not been translated correctly? I don't know. 5. Pres Hinckley is prophet, but does he know everything? Or just what God has revealed to him, sufficient to provide eternal life to mankind? I don't know. 6. How much faith is required to be saved? And is that salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, or a lower kingdom that we are speaking about? I don't know. I am continually astounded at my ignorance. It is truly world class. Perhaps that is why my love of doctrine is so intensely interested in what we DO know for sure. However, I have noticed something interesting on these email discussion lists: For everything I don't know, there is someone who thinks he does. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
Your list is doctrinal. But once one begins scratching the surface of these ideas, we leave the area of doctrine and enter into speculation. For example, 1. There is a God with a body, but was he a Savior on his own planet? 2. Is Christ the savior of just this world, all the universe? What? 3. Was Joseph Smith infallible? If not, which of his statements are not prophetic? 4. What parts of the Bible have not been translated correctly? 5. Pres Hinckley is prophet, but does he know everything? Or just what God has revealed to him, sufficient to provide eternal life to mankind? 6. How much faith is required to be saved? And is that salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, or a lower kingdom that we are speaking about? K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever JWR's list of doctrines:1) There is a God. 2) Jesus Christ is his Son. 3) Joseph Smith is a true prophet. 4) The Book of Mormon is the Word of God. 5) The Bible is the Word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. 6) Jesus Christ is the Redeemer of the World. 7) Gordon B. Hinckley is a true prophet just as Joseph Smith or Moses were. 8) A man cannot be saved without faith in Christ, repentance and baptism. 9) There are three kingdoms of glory. 10) There is a universal resurrection. 11) The Law of Tithing is God's Law. 12) The Law of Chastity is God's Law. and so forth and so on. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
Gerald Smith wrote: Your list is doctrinal. But once one begins scratching the surface of these ideas, we leave the area of doctrine and enter into speculation. For example, 1. There is a God with a body, but was he a Savior on his own planet? I don't know. 2. Is Christ the savior of just this world, all the universe? What? I don't know. 3. Was Joseph Smith infallible? If not, which of his statements are not prophetic? I don't know. 4. What parts of the Bible have not been translated correctly? I don't know. 5. Pres Hinckley is prophet, but does he know everything? Or just what God has revealed to him, sufficient to provide eternal life to mankind? I don't know. 6. How much faith is required to be saved? And is that salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, or a lower kingdom that we are speaking about? I don't know. I am continually astounded at my ignorance. It is truly world class. Perhaps that is why my love of doctrine is so intensely interested in what we DO know for sure. However, I have noticed something interesting on these email discussion lists: For everything I don't know, there is someone who thinks he does. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
It is a wise person who can state when he doesn't know. There's nothing wrong with pondering and some speculating, as long as it doesn't become a personal doctrine that we insist on pushing onto others. I don't know the answers to any of those questions, either. I do have some personal ideas on some of them, but am open on all of them. And that is what allows us to grow. Can you imagine how little faith it would require if ALL the answers were provided by God? We couldn't stretch ourselves, test ourselves, or learn of our own accord. President Joseph F Smith lost a little daughter around 1860. He spent the next 40 years pondering what happened in the Spirit World. He was obsessed with the issue, writing on it frequently, speaking on it frequently, and always speculating. It wasn't until two weeks before his death that it was revealed to him in what we now call DC 138. He wouldn't have been the person he was without such challenges to cause him to stretch and ponder. So it is with the rest of us. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: Answered: I don't know. However, I have noticed something interesting on these email discussion lists: For everything I don't know, there is someone who thinks he does. John W. Redelfs // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
George Cobabe wrote: In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] John, it is equally cruel to teach that the only true doctrine is the one and the way you understand it. I disagree. It is not equally true IF my understanding of doctrine is correct. There are very few, I mean very few, beleifs that are truly doctine. I disagree again. There are MANY irrefutably true doctrines: 1) There is a God. 2) Jesus Christ is his Son. 3) Joseph Smith is a true prophet. 4) The Book of Mormon is the Word of God. 5) The Bible is the Word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. 6) Jesus Christ is the Redeemer of the World. 7) Gordon B. Hinckley is a true prophet just as Joseph Smith or Moses were. 8) A man cannot be saved without faith in Christ, repentance and baptism. 9) There are three kingdoms of glory. 10) There is a universal resurrection. 11) The Law of Tithing is God's Law. 12) The Law of Chastity is God's Law. and so forth and so on. Even many of the beliefs accepted by the majority of the members are not true. This is true, but it is also irrelevent. It is unwise to set up a standard built on the understanding of anything but the reveleation of the truth, and much of that is not to be shared as absolute doctrine by the individual who has received it. I know that you think I am unwise George. Fortunately, I only need to impress Heavenly Father with my wisdom. Simply stating the belief or quoting someone else that also believes that way does not establish the truth of the doctrine. Of course. This is so obvious that I'm surprised that you would think it needs saying. An understanding of true doctrine is ESSENTIAL to salvation. Without it, no one would ever have faith in Christ or repent of his sins. And salvation is impossible without faith and repentance. That is not just personal opinion. That is the Law of God. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine
What you say here is true, John. It is so easy to go further, as some do, and suggest that they are the ones that know thre real truth about so many other doctrines that you have not mentioned. And that is where the problem is often found. I do not think you are unwise, in fact I think that declaring the doctrine is one of my strengths as well as one of yours. It is just very easy to go too far. Some things are not clear and if you have two members disagreeing it does not mean that it is easy to determine which is right, if either of them is right, and which is wrong. So we need, in so many ways, to be careful. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:43 PM Subject: [ZION] The Cruelty of False Doctrine George Cobabe wrote: In my opinion, there are many Latter-day Saints who do not understand how unloving and even cruel it is to teach false doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] John, it is equally cruel to teach that the only true doctrine is the one and the way you understand it. I disagree. It is not equally true IF my understanding of doctrine is correct. There are very few, I mean very few, beleifs that are truly doctine. I disagree again. There are MANY irrefutably true doctrines: 1) There is a God. 2) Jesus Christ is his Son. 3) Joseph Smith is a true prophet. 4) The Book of Mormon is the Word of God. 5) The Bible is the Word of God insofar as it is translated correctly. 6) Jesus Christ is the Redeemer of the World. 7) Gordon B. Hinckley is a true prophet just as Joseph Smith or Moses were. 8) A man cannot be saved without faith in Christ, repentance and baptism. 9) There are three kingdoms of glory. 10) There is a universal resurrection. 11) The Law of Tithing is God's Law. 12) The Law of Chastity is God's Law. and so forth and so on. Even many of the beliefs accepted by the majority of the members are not true. This is true, but it is also irrelevent. It is unwise to set up a standard built on the understanding of anything but the reveleation of the truth, and much of that is not to be shared as absolute doctrine by the individual who has received it. I know that you think I am unwise George. Fortunately, I only need to impress Heavenly Father with my wisdom. Simply stating the belief or quoting someone else that also believes that way does not establish the truth of the doctrine. Of course. This is so obvious that I'm surprised that you would think it needs saying. An understanding of true doctrine is ESSENTIAL to salvation. Without it, no one would ever have faith in Christ or repent of his sins. And salvation is impossible without faith and repentance. That is not just personal opinion. That is the Law of God. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
