Re: RE: [ZION] Voting and parties
For the last couple of years I've been toying with the idea of becoming a Democrat, although as a conservative and Constitutionalist I don't imagine I would be a very good Democrat. I think I understand a little bit what you are saying and we talked about it when I visited you. I'm torn between the parties. I like a lot of things the Democrats push and I like a lot of things that the Republicans push and the reverse is also true. But, as Gary said, the Democrats are in favor of things that I simply cannot tolerate. And the Republicans in the end make me barf up. The other parties don't have a chance and I don't want to vote for a looser. I'm stuck. What do I do? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
At some point in the past, Stephen wrote: To make sure the Democrats in an area don't band together and elect a Republican candidate who can't possibly win the general election, and vice versa. - This happens, I'm sure. I mentioned before that this is the way things are done in Georgia. Whenever someone loses a primary, they inevitably use this as an excuse for losing. It doesn't make much sense, though, when both parties are holding primaries. I have mainly voted in Republican primaries. Off hand, I don't recall ever voting in a Democratic primary, but I wouldn't deny it. Before I became of voting age, I understand that practically everything in Georgia was determined at the Democratic primary because the Republican party didn't have much of a chance at anything. That is no longer the case, though Democrats still maintain a firm grip on a lot of offices. BTW, I have sent in my absentee ballot. I have no idea whether it will actually be counted or not. There were many offices in which I voted for neither the Democrat or Republican candidate. I am a firm believer in voting for who you think is best, not who you think will win. That includes the liberal use of write-in voting. (I have voted for Grampa Bill many times in the past, and for two offices this time around. Gramma Letty, too, for that matter.) Cousin Bill / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Voting and parties
In a primary election where people are voting to select a candidate to run in the general election, only members of a particular party should be able to select their party's candidate. At least, that is my opinion. Unfortunately, people with an agenda have changed this in many states. Of course, this has backfired on them in subsequent elections, but there is this law of unintended consequences that we do have to deal with. Jon Mark Gregson wrote: You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register your preference? Is that true? And if it is, what's the point of it? Since your vote is secret, why register a preference? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Voting and Parties
At 07:36 PM 10/23/2002, you wrote: IMO, I agree with President George Washington in his Farewell Address, that we should shun political parties. All they have done is divide the nation along a single line without as much as a care for actual platform. Too many people vote for a party, simply because their parents did. Very few vote for the character of the individual or that person's individual platform. Just because a party has a platform does not mean the individual holds to it. Whatever happened to George Bush's promise to help the schools? Instead, he turned the process over to Ted Kennedy and the Democrats' pro-teacher's-union platform to decide what to do. We didn't get what was promised, and most people have forgotten, because they are tied to the party, rather than the policies. Instead of passing laws to protect us from terrorism and to fund the war on it, the two parties are fighting over platform issues: should the new workers be unionized? Should we throw in money for after school programs, so we can help the incumbents get reelected? Instead of hitting the real issues, we have Daschle attacking inane items; and we have the Republicans ignoring the economy in order to win the election through the war on terrorism. Finally, without parties, we would be able to have more people run for office and have a chance of winning. We wouldn't need campaign reform, because money would be tied to the individual and not to a political party and its abuses. And we wouldn't have the crimes of an elected leader protected by a political party, whether it is Nixon or Clinton, if one is guilty of crimes, the entire Congress should honestly investigate it and do their job; not sweep sins under the carpet in order to protect the party. One more thing. We need to put term limits on all Congress. One term for Senate, two for House. Then we wouldn't have people fighting to keep themselves forever in office, and it would reduce the amount of voter bribes. New Senators and Congressmen have a vision to fix America. Old ones are mostly interested in keeping their position. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smith I'd like to see the electoral college used the way the framers intended--each state would decide how their particular electoral college representatives would be elected, and then these representatives would vote for president. This way the chances are a better candidate would be elected rather than mediocre or poor candidates who might look better or have that certain popular charisma than more qualified but less popularly appealing candidates. We don't need term limits. We already have term limits if the people so choose--their vote. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Voting and Parties
At 08:36 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote: One more thing. We need to put term limits on all Congress. One term for Senate, two for House. Then we wouldn't have people fighting to keep themselves forever in office, and it would reduce the amount of voter bribes. New Senators and Congressmen have a vision to fix America. Old ones are mostly interested in keeping their position. I disagree on the matter of term limits because it violates the spirit of the Constitution. There needs to be a balance of power among the three branches of government. Over the past two centuries the national legislature has irresponsibly been giving up more and more of its power over the executive branch. Term limits would just accelerate that shift. Without checks and balances we will have dictatorship. And checks and balances only work if the three branches of the federal government are more or less evenly balanced. I believe the idea of term limits was discussed by those in the original Constitutional Drafting Convention and it was rejected. I haven't done the study to learn what their reasons were. In any case, I object to term limits on Constitutional reasons. I know that puts me at odds with my fellow conservatives, but then William F. Buckley campaigned for giving away the Panama Canal Zone. Not every person with the public persona of a conservative actually is one. Finally Brigham Young didn't like the idea of term limits. He once said that if a good man is in the office, he should be kept there indefinitely to keep the scoundrels out of that seat. Term limits can backfire. Actually they usually do. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of our solar system. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Voting and parties
Mark Gregson: You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register your preference? Is that true? And if it is, what's the point of it? Since your vote is secret, why register a preference? ___ I do not recall living in a state where you had to declare a party preference in order to register to vote. In the state where I now live, if you vote in a primary election, you vote only in the primary election of one particular party. You automatically become a member of that party and you cannot vote or participate in the other party's election. After the primary election (and any runoffs, as needed), anyone registered may vote in the general election in November (including those who did not vote in the primary election). This primary election law has some unusual consequences. A judge who had served well for 20 years as a Democrat was unopposed. He decided to vote for his friend, a Republican in their primary. Because he did this, he was ruled ineligible to be on the Democratic ballot, was removed, and another Democrat was appointed to take his place. In the meantime, the Republicans had not put up a Republican challenger, but now a different Democrat was going to walk into office unopposed. Because the law does not allow a Republican on the ballot this election, since a Republican primary election was not held, there will be an independent write-in candidate for whom folks may vote in November. It will be interesting. The state supreme court has upheld all of this as lawful and constitutional under state law. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
-Marc- In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from This is not correct. -Mark- What? You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register your preference? Is that true? No, it is not true. Many states do require you to register in order to vote in the primaries, though. And if it is, what's the point of it? To make sure the Democrats in an area don't band together and elect a Republican candidate who can't possibly win the general election, and vice versa. Since your vote is secret, why register a preference? In a primary, you may only vote within your registered party if you live in a state with such rules. Some states don't have any such rules, which I consider to be a mistake (the lack of such rules, I mean). As to voting or supporting a party: I'm not sure that I follow what Elder Jensen was saying. What's the point of voting for a party if you don't accept their policies? Obviously, I can't speak for Elder Jensen, but I suspect the general authorities are concerned about the lack of opposition to the Republicans in Utah. This lack of political balance allows the Republicans to bend the rules and control state politics without an effective counterbalance. Personally, I'm not sure that's so much worse than the perpetual gridlock you so often get with more balanced state legislatures. In any case, it is vastly preferable to having a bunch of Democrats in charge. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from This is not correct. Please don't interrupt. If you read the whole post, I made clear that this was to vote in party conventions -- what you call primaries. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
-Marc- In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from -Stephen- This is not correct. -Marc- Please don't interrupt. Oops. My bad. I had thought this was John Redelfs' discussion list, not Marc Schindler's lecture hall. Silly me. If you read the whole post, I made clear that this was to vote in party conventions -- what you call primaries. Wrong. Your first paragraph was: Being a 'member' of a party in our Westminster system means something different than it does in the U.S. In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from state to state, as to how the states elect their delegates to the party national conventions). So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote for whomever you like. This paragraph clearly was referring to the general election, since you said affiliation was meaningless and that you can vote for whomever you like, something not possible in primaries. Only in your next paragraph did you go on to discuss primaries. Even if you had made clear that this was to vote in...primaries, you're still wrong. In no sense is it true that [i]n the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent). A great many voters do not register under any affiliation whatsoever, and some states allow participation in primaries without a declared affiliation. tweak Maybe you should read your own posts more carefully. Alternatively, you could admit when you're wrong...oh, never mind. No use dwelling in a land of fantasy. /tweak Tweakin' Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
Exactly. I was referring to state party conventions, what you call in US English, primaries. Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from -Stephen- This is not correct. -Marc- Please don't interrupt. Oops. My bad. I had thought this was John Redelfs' discussion list, not Marc Schindler's lecture hall. Silly me. If you read the whole post, I made clear that this was to vote in party conventions -- what you call primaries. Wrong. Your first paragraph was: Being a 'member' of a party in our Westminster system means something different than it does in the U.S. In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from state to state, as to how the states elect their delegates to the party national conventions). So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote for whomever you like. This paragraph clearly was referring to the general election, since you said affiliation was meaningless and that you can vote for whomever you like, something not possible in primaries. Only in your next paragraph did you go on to discuss primaries. Even if you had made clear that this was to vote in...primaries, you're still wrong. In no sense is it true that [i]n the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent). A great many voters do not register under any affiliation whatsoever, and some states allow participation in primaries without a declared affiliation. tweak Maybe you should read your own posts more carefully. Alternatively, you could admit when you're wrong...oh, never mind. No use dwelling in a land of fantasy. /tweak Tweakin' Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
-Marc- Exactly. I was referring to state party conventions, what you call in US English, primaries. Interesting. So, then, what did you intend to say when you wrote: So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote for whomever you like. If you were referring to primaries, then why did you say that affilliation was meaningless, because...you can vote for whomever you like? This is clearly false, even in primaries. And you never did respond to the question of why your statement, [i]n the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent), was not false on its face, given that not all states require registration in a party to participate in primaries, much less the general election. Clarifyingly, Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- Exactly. I was referring to state party conventions, what you call in US English, primaries. Interesting. So, then, what did you intend to say when you wrote: So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote for whomever you like. sigh You know, this isn't rocket science. All you have to do is read, not cut and paste selectively in what appears to be a deliberately polemical way. I had already made my point about state conventions, then went on to write what you've quoted. Again you've quoted me out of context. This particular reference is to voting following the primaries. Was it that hard to figure out, or are you your own worst enemy when it comes to understanding what others write? If you were referring to primaries, then why did you say that affilliation was meaningless, because...you can vote for whomever you like? This is clearly false, even in primaries. And you never did respond to the question of why your statement, [i]n the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent), was not false on its face, given that not all states require registration in a party to participate in primaries, much less the general election. Because I thought it was a dumb question, if you really insist on an answer. If you want me to be tactful, give me room to be tactful. Clarifyingly, Stephen Be careful what you ask for. You might get it. Clarification, in this case. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
