[Zope-dev] Zope tests: 8 OK
Summary of messages to the zope-tests list. Period Mon Jan 2 12:01:02 2006 UTC to Tue Jan 3 12:01:02 2006 UTC. There were 8 messages: 8 from Zope Unit Tests. Tests passed OK --- Subject: OK : Zope-2_6-branch Python-2.1.3 : Linux From: Zope Unit Tests Date: Mon Jan 2 21:04:35 EST 2006 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/003914.html Subject: OK : Zope-2_6-branch Python-2.3.5 : Linux From: Zope Unit Tests Date: Mon Jan 2 21:06:06 EST 2006 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/003915.html Subject: OK : Zope-2_7-branch Python-2.3.5 : Linux From: Zope Unit Tests Date: Mon Jan 2 21:07:36 EST 2006 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/003916.html Subject: OK : Zope-2_7-branch Python-2.4.2 : Linux From: Zope Unit Tests Date: Mon Jan 2 21:09:06 EST 2006 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/003917.html Subject: OK : Zope-2_8-branch Python-2.3.5 : Linux From: Zope Unit Tests Date: Mon Jan 2 21:10:36 EST 2006 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/003918.html Subject: OK : Zope-2_8-branch Python-2.4.2 : Linux From: Zope Unit Tests Date: Mon Jan 2 21:12:06 EST 2006 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/003919.html Subject: OK : Zope-2_9-branch Python-2.4.2 : Linux From: Zope Unit Tests Date: Mon Jan 2 21:13:36 EST 2006 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/003920.html Subject: OK : Zope-trunk Python-2.4.2 : Linux From: Zope Unit Tests Date: Mon Jan 2 21:15:06 EST 2006 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2006-January/003921.html ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[ZWeb] mailing list
how do i unsubscribeBrowse smarter with tabs - MSN Search Toolbar get MSN Search Toolbar, absolutely FREE. ___ Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web
Re: [Zope] Java vs Zope
I always found the bytecode aspect of Java annoying... having to compile without the advantages in speed of a compiled language. Interesting, though, I host a WebSphere 6.0 app in Java... The Websphere install is littered with python files, for install/setup purposes... hmm two cents, -Jon David Johnson wrote: Andreas and others, Thanks for your response. I think my confusion lies in the idea that not everyone uses Java (though they may talk about it). I do not see everyone using Java. In fact I see very few large or successful companies using it. Even Sun and IBM develop their core components in C/C++. GNU, Linux, MySQL ... all C/C++. Ditto Oracle. In my market, we've been able to easily outpace and perform competitors going the J2EE route, and for a lot less money. In regards to web development, the list of technologies being implemented is overwhelming. It took extensive research to find and settle down to Zope. In my research, I found it took 57 complex files to develop a simple and ugly J2EE application to display a list of cars from a database (various Ant, xml, jar, war and other files). In Zope this can be done in 2 objects, and it integrates nicely with apps like Dreamweaver, so it looks and feels nice. We often find the need to integrate with other products and when we do, either the product's manufacturer a) is interested in market share, or b) they avoid change. For companies who are into market share they often use a greatest common denominator technology such as C, Perl, or HTTP. Java does not play nicely here. Companies who avoid change usually do so because they produce large-scale or small market systems, and change is too expensive and hard. In this case Java, again, does not play nicely. In Java it seems that not only do you have to figure how to interface with others, you have to figure out how to do it in Java as well (which is not trivial). Zope and Python seem better at translating thoughts into code, and doing so with the right balance of object orientation, and scalability. Zope provides a solid framework for development and scalability, while providing mechanisms to include and deploy very custom and specific features in a standardized way. -Original Message- From: Andreas Jung [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 4:03 PM To: David Johnson; zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Java vs Zope --On 1. Januar 2006 14:04:16 -0600 David Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good afternoon. I am new to Zope and I am excited about its possibilities. We are an ASP and plan to use Zope to improve our development process. I see that many people use J2EE based environments. Does anyone understand why? Why would anyone use Java? Because everyone uses Java! When you work in an environment were Java is already used then you usually use Java instead of Python. And there are environments where Python is possibly the better solution. You just need to compare the efforts to integrate an existing environment with your solution...then you choose your tools. -aj ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Jonathan Cyr http://www.cyr.info http://www.weddingweblog.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
Do we know Is the Zope community growing or shrinking? Is there even a problem? Is Python growing or shrinking? Is there any connection? Zope.org seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc. Is it working. RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality. Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that provides a very small amount of "get started" information. Two Cents, -Jon Gert Thiel wrote: Dear friends. A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release. At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in terms of attention and recognized widespread. Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the shortcommings of J2EE. Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why? Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org. Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have a look at rubyonrails.org and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any look at zope.org where is You got it. To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant. Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE? Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever: Make them love Zope at the very first look: * Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success. Bribe the managers: * Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access. * Include powerful XML processing facilities and * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services. Enable the beginners: * Easy to read and understand but still complete and current documentation is a must. * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location. Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the framework but from its community. And of course make Zope 4 even better. Regards, Gert http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Jonathan Cyr http://www.cyr.info http://www.weddingweblog.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Java vs Zope
From my experience, Java development has been a lot faster when applications have middle to high level complexity. Since Java is inherently object-oriented, reusability is much easier to achieve then when using Zope. Also, Java has mature development and debugging environments and well organized API's. Zope is seriously lacking in this regard. Zope is good for building simple interfaces but any application that does data processing and requires session management should be left for Java. The closest comparison to Zope that I can think of is PHP. Again, this is just my opinion based on my own experiences. - Asad On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jonathan Cyr wrote: I always found the bytecode aspect of Java annoying... having to compile without the advantages in speed of a compiled language. Interesting, though, I host a WebSphere 6.0 app in Java... The Websphere install is littered with python files, for install/setup purposes... hmm two cents, -Jon David Johnson wrote: Andreas and others, Thanks for your response. I think my confusion lies in the idea that not everyone uses Java (though they may talk about it). I do not see everyone using Java. In fact I see very few large or successful companies using it. Even Sun and IBM develop their core components in C/C++. GNU, Linux, MySQL ... all C/C++. Ditto Oracle. In my market, we've been able to easily outpace and perform competitors going the J2EE route, and for a lot less money. In regards to web development, the list of technologies being implemented is overwhelming. It took extensive research to find and settle down to Zope. In my research, I found it took 57 complex files to develop a simple and ugly J2EE application to display a list of cars from a database (various Ant, xml, jar, war and other files). In Zope this can be done in 2 objects, and it integrates nicely with apps like Dreamweaver, so it looks and feels nice. We often find the need to integrate with other products and when we do, either the product's manufacturer a) is interested in market share, or b) they avoid change. For companies who are into market share they often use a greatest common denominator technology such as C, Perl, or HTTP. Java does not play nicely here. Companies who avoid change usually do so because they produce large-scale or small market systems, and change is too expensive and hard. In this case Java, again, does not play nicely. In Java it seems that not only do you have to figure how to interface with others, you have to figure out how to do it in Java as well (which is not trivial). Zope and Python seem better at translating thoughts into code, and doing so with the right balance of object orientation, and scalability. Zope provides a solid framework for development and scalability, while providing mechanisms to include and deploy very custom and specific features in a standardized way. -Original Message- From: Andreas Jung [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 4:03 PM To: David Johnson; zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Java vs Zope --On 1. Januar 2006 14:04:16 -0600 David Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good afternoon. I am new to Zope and I am excited about its possibilities. We are an ASP and plan to use Zope to improve our development process. I see that many people use J2EE based environments. Does anyone understand why? Why would anyone use Java? Because everyone uses Java! When you work in an environment were Java is already used then you usually use Java instead of Python. And there are environments where Python is possibly the better solution. You just need to compare the efforts to integrate an existing environment with your solution...then you choose your tools. -aj ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Jonathan Cyr http://www.cyr.info http://www.weddingweblog.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] What did your Zope server do in 2005?
On Wednesday 04 January 2006 02:11, Kirk Strauser wrote: On Monday 02 January 2006 08:10, Jake wrote: I sent this out last year and thought it would be fun to see how Zope's did in 2005. Pages:6,580,999 Hits: 37,137,283 Bandwidth: 142.12 GB Hardware: AMD Athlon 64 3200+ 2.0Ghz, 2GB DDR Ram, SCSI Raid 1, RH ES 2.1 Zope: 2.7.4, CMF 1.4.7, Plone 2.0.5 What did you gather that information with? Just parsing the log files? Anyway, here's ours: Pages: 2.9 million (approx) Hardward: Xeon 2.4GHz (HTT disabled), 2GB RAM, FreeBSD 6.0, single SCSI-320 drive. Zope: 8 instances of 2.7.8, hanging off a single ZEO server, and load-balanced (random selection) by an Apache 2.0.55 proxy on the same machine. I don't have complete stats for the whole year, but from Feb 2005 to today we did: Hits: 23,359,722 Pages: 10,977,747 Peak rate: 18,998 hits per hour Setup: 2 dual AMD Opteron 244 machines, 2GB RAM, Debian, with pydirector load-balancing them and apache out the front with the vhost mappings (we have a bazillion vhosts). One machine is also ZEO server with lotsa RAID disk, the other is just a grunt box with CPU, RAM and little else. Zope: 2.7.6 We have five ZEO clients (one per CPU plus an extra). One of them is dedicated to serving search-engine bot traffic so that the other clients (and hence regular users) aren't affected when they decide to spider *all* of our vhosts at once. Which they do, on a regular basis. Currently we see the majority of our traffic handled by the first of the other four ZEO clients, but at peak load times the others two see a trickle of hits. I expect we could double the current load, and we are anticipating an increase in load this year of at least that. It's a good thing that dual-Opteron machines are cheap. Richard ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] How to get hands on url with hash?
Tino Wildenhain schrieb: Its impossible. Everything from # is only handled by the browser and never sent to the server. Thanks. I was not sure about that. Even inline-auth wont probably help. Regards Jürgen ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] How to get hands on url with hash?
Fred Drake schrieb: The hash and the fragment-identifier that follows are only used by the browser and are not sent as part of the HTTP request. If you need information beyond the document identifier to be sent, you need to use query parameters. You are right, parameters are my friend. I have tried to use the hash with some javascript to load the (rest of the) page via XHR, works nice w/o authentication. Regards Jürgen ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Java vs Zope
Asad Habib wrote: From my experience, Java development has been a lot faster when applications have middle to high level complexity. Since Java is inherently object-oriented, reusability is much easier to achieve then when using Zope. Also, Java has mature development and debugging environments and well organized API's. Zope is seriously lacking in this regard. Zope is good for building simple interfaces but any application that does data processing and requires session management should be left for Java. The closest comparison to Zope that I can think of is PHP. Again, this is just my opinion based on my own experiences. - Asad Asad, Python is also object oriented. In python, x = 10 creates an object not a simple type - if I recall the same is true in Java. The comparison should first be between python and java. I've used both and prefer python. The next compare should be between developement platforms for each: e.g. Zope vs some java IDE. Lastly, I think Zope is more than capable of handling complex applications using external databases. I've not run into a single barrier doing this using Zope (other than fleeing braincells). All best, David ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] Java vs Zope
David - I am new to Zope, but I feel your assessment is correct. We have developed and deployed very large applications using PHP/C++, and are now looking to Zope to take us into the next stage. Python seems excellent at object orientation and neatness with minimal effort by the developer. Asab - Do you know any types of large applications that are in Java? I have seen only a few, and they are particularly bad, such as the Oracle installer, Star Office, and Eclipse. All are excessively large, slow, and buggy. We have one competitor using J2EE, and it requires them 10 times the resources (both financial and labor), as it does us using PHP, and their application is poor and difficult to modify for customer needs. Only highly trained engineers can understand and use Java, making maintenance expensive and challenging. Our initial efforts in Zope lead us to believe we can be even faster and better using Zope and Python than we were able with PHP (we use PHP with classes). Have you not found this to be case? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have so much trouble understanding the appeal of Java. Thank you. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David H Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 8:23 PM To: Asad Habib Cc: Jonathan Cyr; zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Java vs Zope Asad Habib wrote: From my experience, Java development has been a lot faster when applications have middle to high level complexity. Since Java is inherently object-oriented, reusability is much easier to achieve then when using Zope. Also, Java has mature development and debugging environments and well organized API's. Zope is seriously lacking in this regard. Zope is good for building simple interfaces but any application that does data processing and requires session management should be left for Java. The closest comparison to Zope that I can think of is PHP. Again, this is just my opinion based on my own experiences. - Asad Asad, Python is also object oriented. In python, x = 10 creates an object not a simple type - if I recall the same is true in Java. The comparison should first be between python and java. I've used both and prefer python. The next compare should be between developement platforms for each: e.g. Zope vs some java IDE. Lastly, I think Zope is more than capable of handling complex applications using external databases. I've not run into a single barrier doing this using Zope (other than fleeing braincells). All best, David ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] RE: Java vs Zope
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:12:06 -0600, David Johnson wrote: David - I am new to Zope, but I feel your assessment is correct. We have developed and deployed very large applications using PHP/C++, and are now looking to Zope to take us into the next stage. Python seems excellent at object orientation and neatness with minimal effort by the developer. Asab - Do you know any types of large applications that are in Java? I have seen only a few, and they are particularly bad, such as the Oracle installer, Star Office, and Eclipse. All are excessively large, slow, and buggy. We have one competitor using J2EE, and it requires them 10 times the resources (both financial and labor), as it does us using PHP, and their application is poor and difficult to modify for customer needs. Only highly trained engineers can understand and use Java, making maintenance expensive and challenging. Our initial efforts in Zope lead us to believe we can be even faster and better using Zope and Python than we were able with PHP (we use PHP with classes). Have you not found this to be case? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have so much trouble understanding the appeal of Java. Thank you. I've worked with Java for 10+ years (yes, ever since you could first get hold of it!) and the last couple of years with Zope/Plone/python. There is no doubt that both are great environments to develop in! I agree that python is great for putting an application together very simply and rapidly. However, in general programming, there are some things I really miss from the Java world, and I will run through below. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but simply that you have to weight up the pros and cons when deciding which to use ... One thing is static type checking: developers detecting type errors at compile time, rather than some hapless user running into it at run time (i.e. after release to the public). I see many of those types of errors in Zope and Plone products, particularly as the API of one product changes and another product tries to use it. With Java, such problems are likely to be detected at compile time. Runtime errors produce a negative public perception of software products, as well as being dangerous in critical systems. Pervasive use of unit testing will help avoid such problems, but that level of discipline is hard to find in Zope/Plone projects (but well done those who do it!). On the downside, static type checking makes Java less flexible, and requires more programming effort, and of course there is that tedious compilation step. Java also tends to lead to cleaner and more understandable software architectures than python because of its fundamental and neat/easy use of interfaces, classes, packages and even threads (not that concurrent programming is ever that easy). Mainly good easy abstract interfaces, and their widespread use in APIs, is what I miss. As to whether J2EE is better than Zope/Plone for web applications, I'm undecided. Before I started with Plone, I would have used Java if I could find a suitable FOSS platform that did all the things that Zope Plone do - but there were none available. It looks like that is changing now though with all the FOSS J2EE environments, workflows, etc. coming along, so I may sway back to Java sometime in the future. I would generally say that, for the *same* amount of testing, Java is much safer (in terms of less defects) than python. I'm not sure if it is true that an equivalent python application using similar APIs is quicker to write. I suspect it is also true that Java is available in more environments that python, and perhaps is has more consistent feature sets (APIs) on each platform, leading to greater portability of applications. For web apps perhaps this is not such a problem. I have also used PHP quite a bit, but I am disappointed by its abysmal lack of decent OO, exception and name spaces. For those that don't care about OO, probably this doesn't bother them. For me, I find it hard to go back and use PHP after experiencing python. Finally, while I don't think execution speed is much of a issue these days, the horrendous use of memory resources by Java can be a problem. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] RE: Java vs Zope
Sam Stainsby wrote: One thing is static type checking: developers detecting type errors at compile time, rather than some hapless user running into it at run time (i.e. after release to the public). I see many of those types of errors in Zope and Plone products, particularly as the API of one product changes and another product tries to use it. With Java, such problems are likely to be detected at compile time. Runtime errors produce a negative public perception of software products, as well as being dangerous in critical systems. Pervasive use of unit testing will help avoid such problems, but that level of discipline is hard to find in Zope/Plone projects (but well done those who do it!). On the downside, static type checking makes Java less flexible, and requires more programming effort, and of course there is that tedious compilation step. I worked in Java for web apps (as well as a few halting tries at GUIs--ick!) before Zope. I expected type problems because of the lack of static checking; however, I have not found it to be a problem. I don't think programs are quite as wild and wooly as static typed languages assume. I think it's quite acceptable to put the burden of use on the programmer instead of the compiler, considering the benefits; that's what he's thinking about anyway, no? My main problem with Java is that it's a high-friction environment. It takes a lot of work to do most things, often because interfaces have been abstracted so far (or sometimes because of compiler hoops, but not that often.) This is both in code and framework. For code, go take a look at what it takes to make an XML-RPC call in Python and in Java. I had to look this up for writing my book, and it's quite disgusting. It all depends on the functionality, of course, but I can't think of anything that writes quicker in Java than in Python. Framework-wise, I found that it took at least three separate helper programs to set up an reasonably productive, understandable, and maintainable development environment for J2EE, and that's not even counting an IDE. Zope 2 development generally has a lot less friction, and is usually a lot higher-level. As a result, I think it's several times faster than Java development. Possibly even many times faster. It does seem to make up for this by being more mysterious, but you can learn those things in time. You can't get rid of all the Java crap. (It's like the Churchill joke.) Zope 3, though I admit I've only played with it glancingly, seems to be more J2EE-like in certain respects: there seem to be a lot of things I have to touch to get things going. To a certain point, I can deal with this, but if there's ever a ZDoclet... --jcc -- Building Websites with Plone http://plonebook.packtpub.com/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Java vs Zope
David Johnson schrieb: David - I am new to Zope, but I feel your assessment is correct. We have developed and deployed very large applications using PHP/C++, and are now looking to Zope to take us into the next stage. Python seems excellent at object orientation and neatness with minimal effort by the developer. Asab - Do you know any types of large applications that are in Java? I have seen only a few, and they are particularly bad, such as the Oracle installer, Star Office, and Eclipse. All are excessively large, slow, and buggy. We have one competitor using J2EE, and it requires them 10 times the resources (both financial and labor), as it does us using PHP, and their application is poor and difficult to modify for customer needs. Only highly trained engineers can understand and use Java, making maintenance expensive and challenging. Our initial efforts in Zope lead us to believe we can be even faster and better using Zope and Python than we were able with PHP (we use PHP with classes). Have you not found this to be case? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have so much trouble understanding the appeal of Java. Thank you. We came to the same conclusion when we once had an in-company comparation of e-commerce solutions - one big team always developed with java and help of external specialists and one small team used zope. Guess who was faster in development, had more features and used less hardware? ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
