Re: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book
I'm using ZODB and ZEO seperate from Zope, no problem. --Darrell - Original Message - From: "Dieter Maurer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I think Andrew completed the extraction of the ZODB. > This means, Zope applications can use it for persistency. > You, immediately, gain ZCatalog features, too. > ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book
Thank you for your encouragement. Andrew Kuchling works on the modularization of Zope packages such that they can easily be used outside Zope. For part of these packages, this is easy: Structured Text and DTML is used for a long time outside Zope. I think Andrew completed the extraction of the ZODB. This means, Zope applications can use it for persistency. You, immediately, gain ZCatalog features, too. I think, the development goes into the direction you proposed. Dieter ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book
There is room for both books. Zope is a powerful and very deep products. The majority of users are unlikely to go into a great deal of python, most are going to use the dtml and other basic functionality. If Zope is going to increase its market then this sort of book is essential to make Zope accessible. Can I help at all? But a book covering the internals will be useful. One of my gripes about the documentation is how spread out and hard to find it is there's Wiki's here, presentations there... I've often searched zope.org and come up blank, when people on the mailing list can point it to me in 2 mins. But searching zope.org is another matter entirely :) my 2 cents. - Original Message - From: "Max Møller Rasmussen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 2:19 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book > Fra: Kapil Thangavelu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > >I think most developers are forced to learn > >through trial and error because the docs don't do the components justice > >since they tend to focus on working understanding of zope's framework > >from dtml. and in the end they are forced to turn to the source which > >can be confusing without knowing the parts of the framework from a > >fundamental not a working perspective. > > >comments? > > 2 right you are. We need more info about Zope from a Python programmers POW. > Setting pages up in dtml is not that interresting from my point of view. > > We need more detailed documentation on all the seperate modules, and far > more/better on making products. > > dtml is not for programming and business logic, only for presentation. > > Max M > > ___ > Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) > ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book
Much of the aim of the "Product Developer's Guide" (see http://www.zope.org/Wikis/Docs/ProductDevelopersGuide) is to address the issues you bring up. It's been slow going, although I almost have the security chapter completed. Hopefully this weekend I'll be able to release that chapter. > -Original Message- > From: Kapil Thangavelu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 11:19 PM > To: Dieter Maurer > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book > great plan. > redundant no... desparetely needed? yes:) > > my thoughts... > > i've often felt thought that dc and zope cater a bit too much to the > newbie crowd in the sense that the documentation is built around on > touching upon a working knowledge of acquisition and the majority > focuses on dtml. i often felt the need (and perhaps i'll scratch the > itch) for a zope book for python developers. python is easy to learn, > there is no reason zope can't be if it were approached as a collection > of python frameworks. zodb (acqusition, persistence, zcatalog), > medusa(asyncore+orb), document template, security. > > many of the components of zope are very suitable for reuse outside of > zope to a python programmer if the pieces were understood as separate > entities and explained how they worked in synergy to make zope work, i > think there would be many more developers and products for zope. > > as is, you learn piecemeal unless you have the stomach and the time to > go through all the source code. i've learned a bit (still learning) > mainly from the source, but i think most developers are > forced to learn > through trial and error because the docs don't do the > components justice > since they tend to focus on working understanding of zope's framework > from dtml. and in the end they are forced to turn to the source which > can be confusing without knowing the parts of the framework from a > fundamental not a working perspective. > > comments? > > Kapil > > ___ > Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) > ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book
Fra: Kapil Thangavelu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >I think most developers are forced to learn >through trial and error because the docs don't do the components justice >since they tend to focus on working understanding of zope's framework >from dtml. and in the end they are forced to turn to the source which >can be confusing without knowing the parts of the framework from a >fundamental not a working perspective. >comments? 2 right you are. We need more info about Zope from a Python programmers POW. Setting pages up in dtml is not that interresting from my point of view. We need more detailed documentation on all the seperate modules, and far more/better on making products. dtml is not for programming and business logic, only for presentation. Max M ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book
Dieter Maurer wrote: > > Dear Zopistas, > > I plan to write another book about Zope: "Building Dynamic WebSites > with Zope". > > The book idea: > > Realize a demanding dynamic WebSite with Zope. > Describe everything that is necessary for this purpose. > > This will contain: > Concepts: HTTP, HTML, Zope, Databases, JavaScript, ... > Components: catalogs, sessions, topics, news, discussions, > stores, mails, LoginManager, customizers, workflows, ... > Programming: building your own components (ZClasses and >Product API) > > There will be some overlap with the official Zope book. > However, my book has a different focus: > > I will not be complete about Zope. I will just > describe the 40 per cent of features that are used > for 85 per cent of the applications. > > I will cover aspects of dynamic Web publishing not > directly related to Zope such as e.g. the basics of > HTTP requests and HTML form processing. > > I will mainly stay near the concrete example dynamic > WebSite. > > What do you think about my plan? > Do you feel, it is worth persuing or redantant in view of the > official Zope book? great plan. redundant no... desparetely needed? yes:) my thoughts... i've often felt thought that dc and zope cater a bit too much to the newbie crowd in the sense that the documentation is built around on touching upon a working knowledge of acquisition and the majority focuses on dtml. i often felt the need (and perhaps i'll scratch the itch) for a zope book for python developers. python is easy to learn, there is no reason zope can't be if it were approached as a collection of python frameworks. zodb (acqusition, persistence, zcatalog), medusa(asyncore+orb), document template, security. many of the components of zope are very suitable for reuse outside of zope to a python programmer if the pieces were understood as separate entities and explained how they worked in synergy to make zope work, i think there would be many more developers and products for zope. as is, you learn piecemeal unless you have the stomach and the time to go through all the source code. i've learned a bit (still learning) mainly from the source, but i think most developers are forced to learn through trial and error because the docs don't do the components justice since they tend to focus on working understanding of zope's framework from dtml. and in the end they are forced to turn to the source which can be confusing without knowing the parts of the framework from a fundamental not a working perspective. comments? Kapil ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book
Dieter Maurer wrote: > > Dear Zopistas, > > I plan to write another book about Zope: "Building Dynamic WebSites > with Zope". > > The book idea: > > Realize a demanding dynamic WebSite with Zope. > Describe everything that is necessary for this purpose. > > This will contain: > Concepts: HTTP, HTML, Zope, Databases, JavaScript, ... > Components: catalogs, sessions, topics, news, discussions, > stores, mails, LoginManager, customizers, workflows, ... > Programming: building your own components (ZClasses and >Product API) [...] > What do you think about my plan? > Do you feel, it is worth persuing or redantant in view of the > official Zope book? I think it sounds great. Of course, I may be biased since that's some of what I am doing for mine, but IMO it is an excellent idea. -- Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are easy to annoy, and have the root password. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book
Great, idea! Lets face it this is what the majority of users will be using Zope for. IHMO you cannot have too many books on Zope. One thing I would like to see is comparisons of how you would do something in other systems... for example I used to start thinking when I used Perl or ASP I used to do it this why... now how do I do that in Zope sort of thing. -- Andy McKay, Developer, ActiveState http://www.ActiveState.com Programming for the People - Original Message - From: "Dan L. Pierson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Dieter Maurer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 7:58 AM Subject: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book > Dieter Maurer writes: > > Dear Zopistas, > > > > I plan to write another book about Zope: "Building Dynamic WebSites > > with Zope". > > [ ... much good stuff snipped ... ] > > Sounds great! Don't rush though, I can wait until tomorrow for my > copy :-) > > ___ > Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) > ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book
Dieter Maurer writes: > Dear Zopistas, > > I plan to write another book about Zope: "Building Dynamic WebSites > with Zope". [ ... much good stuff snipped ... ] Sounds great! Don't rush though, I can wait until tomorrow for my copy :-) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book
This sounds like a good idea, IMHO. The Zope Book doesn't go into much detail about technologies outside Zope. It sounds like your book would, and this would be a good thing. > -Original Message- > From: Dieter Maurer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 10:45 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book > > > Dear Zopistas, > > I plan to write another book about Zope: "Building Dynamic WebSites > with Zope". > > The book idea: > > Realize a demanding dynamic WebSite with Zope. > Describe everything that is necessary for this purpose. > > > This will contain: > Concepts: HTTP, HTML, Zope, Databases, JavaScript, ... > Components: catalogs, sessions, topics, news, discussions, > stores, mails, LoginManager, customizers, workflows, ... > Programming: building your own components (ZClasses and >Product API) > > > There will be some overlap with the official Zope book. > However, my book has a different focus: > > I will not be complete about Zope. I will just > describe the 40 per cent of features that are used > for 85 per cent of the applications. > > I will cover aspects of dynamic Web publishing not > directly related to Zope such as e.g. the basics of > HTTP requests and HTML form processing. > > I will mainly stay near the concrete example dynamic > WebSite. > > > What do you think about my plan? > Do you feel, it is worth persuing or redantant in view of the > official Zope book? > > > Dieter > > > > ___ > Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) > ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] [Ann] Another Zope Book
Dear Zopistas, I plan to write another book about Zope: "Building Dynamic WebSites with Zope". The book idea: Realize a demanding dynamic WebSite with Zope. Describe everything that is necessary for this purpose. This will contain: Concepts: HTTP, HTML, Zope, Databases, JavaScript, ... Components: catalogs, sessions, topics, news, discussions, stores, mails, LoginManager, customizers, workflows, ... Programming: building your own components (ZClasses and Product API) There will be some overlap with the official Zope book. However, my book has a different focus: I will not be complete about Zope. I will just describe the 40 per cent of features that are used for 85 per cent of the applications. I will cover aspects of dynamic Web publishing not directly related to Zope such as e.g. the basics of HTTP requests and HTML form processing. I will mainly stay near the concrete example dynamic WebSite. What do you think about my plan? Do you feel, it is worth persuing or redantant in view of the official Zope book? Dieter ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
