Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)
As both Robert and Joachim (in another message) have noted, core i18n support is blocked by a single issue: there are two different approaches and insufficient consensus about resolving them. The first criteria that I have is whether someone is willing to become a CVS contributor and shepherd i18n in a responsible fashion, as Martijn Faassen has done with XML. In this sense we suffer from an embarassment of riches: both Localizer and ZBabel have people willing to step up and provide leadership. Unfortunately there isn't someone with sufficient authority on the subject to annoint one as more right than the other. And an arbitrary decision by ZC is sure to leave hard feelings. Unfortunately this needs to get cleared up soon, so that an i18n team can start influencing the component architecture. I suggest that Stefane and Juan David (Localizer/Nuxeo) and Stephan, Andrew, and Joachim (ZBabel/iuveno) have a little chat and make a recommendation for a small next step. --Paul Robert Rottermann wrote: Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm of i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained. However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs translatable and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from our side - missing involvement and therefore no shepherding from ZC's side If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start doing it. Robert - Original Message - From: Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev - Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be hot spots to fix with regard to i18n. Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. Cheers, Andreas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)
Hi, as far as I understand the issue, both I18n solutions coud agree on a common set of features they need in the Zope-core. I think booth should formulate, what their requests are. --On Sonntag, Dezember 02, 2001 13:13:30 -0500 Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As both Robert and Joachim (in another message) have noted, core i18n support is blocked by a single issue: there are two different approaches and insufficient consensus about resolving them. The first criteria that I have is whether someone is willing to become a CVS contributor and shepherd i18n in a responsible fashion, as Martijn Faassen has done with XML. In this sense we suffer from an embarassment of riches: both Localizer and ZBabel have people willing to step up and provide leadership. Unfortunately there isn't someone with sufficient authority on the subject to annoint one as more right than the other. And an arbitrary decision by ZC is sure to leave hard feelings. Unfortunately this needs to get cleared up soon, so that an i18n team can start influencing the component architecture. I suggest that Stefane and Juan David (Localizer/Nuxeo) and Stephan, Andrew, and Joachim (ZBabel/iuveno) have a little chat and make a recommendation for a small next step. --Paul Robert Rottermann wrote: Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm of i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained. However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs translatable and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from our side - missing involvement and therefore no shepherding from ZC's side If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start doing it. Robert - Original Message - From: Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev - Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be hot spots to fix with regard to i18n. Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. Cheers, Andreas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) Mit freundlichen Grüßen Joachim
core i18n support (was [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev)
Andreas, sorry if I have not reacted to a questions for assistance in the realm of i18n. I must have missed them. I rarely go to EuroZope since this site seems badly maintained. However I really would like to help with the internationalization of Zope since most of what we do here a my company must be multilingual. I do have considerable experience making programs translatable and I did a multilanguage CMF (with which I never was really happy) Some 6 Months ago I started to collect what is there regarding i18n and Zope. I did get a sizable number of answers. However there where two rather unfortunate tendencies: - multiple, different and incompatible attempts from our side - missing involvement and therefore no shepherding from ZC's side If, as Paul assures, the second point is about to be rectified it might be now the time to do a second such compilation and then start doing it. Robert - Original Message - From: Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev - Original Message - From: Joachim Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Robert Rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 08:22 Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Open Letter to zope-dev The second is pretty exciting as well. I saw a presentation in Paris by Juan David Palomar, of Localizer fame. (The presentation is now up at http://estce.act.uji.es:9673/localizer). The presentation impressed me on the need to get someone into the core of Zope that knows all these details, but also convinced me that the Zope3 effort needs to anticipate the needs of i18n and l10n. ZBabel and Localizer are good starts, but as jdavid says, both should be thought of as non-core projects that start influencing the core step-by-step. Hi! I fully agree that ZBabel and Localizer don't have to be core projects right now. But the core must be made fit for i18n to make sure that we don't have to patch things like the user folder implementation or the Help! button in the code. In Zopw 2.5, there still seem to be hot spots to fix with regard to i18n. Of course there are hot spots. I have asked multiple times for help on the mailing lists and the Eurozope site to identify such related hot spots. Also I had expect some input of the community regarding at unicode support inside Zope. But there has been no feedback. It looks like no one needs unicode support in Zope ?! :-) Anyway, as a first step Zope 2.5 provides full unicode support for the ZCatalog. I would like to see some volunteers that could help to set up a list of requirements (the list is almost there on the Eurozope site I think) and possible solutions that could be integrated into the Zope core. Referring to the open letter to zope-dev I could also charge the community for zero feedback. But this is not the place and time for flamewars. Instead we should bundle the power of ZC and the community. The opening of the CVS is a good starting point but I would like to see more people contributing. Cheers, Andreas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
