Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
On 1/24/06, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gary Poster wrote: > > > > FWIW, me too. I'm no XML guru (as Fred will attest ;-) ) but reading > > the namespaces on an XML file seems like basic XML procedure. > > Well, the reading of them is the lesser of my two complaints... > > I find it irksome to have to type them at the top of ever file. Is there > no way that they could be pre-bound in the XML parser? That way you'd > only need to inlcude them if you wanted to rebind them... It's like those damned imports in Python. Why can't everything just be available in one big honkin' namespace automatically? ;-) Seriously - it's not that bad. ZCML's use of namespaces is judicious, I believe. There's no namespaced attributes - just the directives. I too use browser: as the default namespace in my browser focused ZCML files. There's only one or two things to type, ever. The namespaces are easy to remember. I can't believe it's a big deal at all. It's certainly a case of 'explicit is better than implicit', I believe. Like with Python code and modules and avoidance of import *, it makes all names easily traceable. Are you using an editor that makes it difficult to go to the top of the file to check on the names? ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
Fred Drake wrote: Even if we could avoid it at a technical level, it means that what we're reading is no longer XML. One of the desires with ZCML was to not invent everything from scratch. So, *if* we're using XML, we need to use it as defined, otherwise it *isn't* XML. Yay.. bow down and worship the god of dead chickens... *sulk* and in other news... Can anyone recommend an XML editor that lets me define certain default namespaces? Failing that, anyone know how to do this in emacs? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
On 1/24/06, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I find it irksome to have to type them at the top of ever file. Is there > no way that they could be pre-bound in the XML parser? That way you'd > only need to inlcude them if you wanted to rebind them... Even if we could avoid it at a technical level, it means that what we're reading is no longer XML. One of the desires with ZCML was to not invent everything from scratch. So, *if* we're using XML, we need to use it as defined, otherwise it *isn't* XML. We're shying away from what's invented here in favor of what's been developed in a broader community. An alternate syntax could of course do things differently, but introducing an alternate syntax just means there's more than one way to do it. That's usually a bad idea. Philipp's proposal cuts more to the heart of the problems with ZCML, and they aren't syntax-specific. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. "There is no wealth but life." --John Ruskin ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
Gary Poster wrote: FWIW, me too. I'm no XML guru (as Fred will attest ;-) ) but reading the namespaces on an XML file seems like basic XML procedure. Well, the reading of them is the lesser of my two complaints... I find it irksome to have to type them at the top of ever file. Is there no way that they could be pre-bound in the XML parser? That way you'd only need to inlcude them if you wanted to rebind them... cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
Stephan Richter wrote: I'll note that I commonly make browser the default namespace in browser packages. And _I'll_ note that it's one of the things in your book that threw me... I had to do a double take to figure out where all these "new" directives had come from when I eventually noticed the rebound namespace at the top of the file... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
On 1/19/06, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > - the tags never have any content, that's a sign xml is the wrong solution When the ZCML syntax was initially proposed I complained about the fact that it abused arguments and underused nested elements. At the time it just felt wrong but months later I realized what the real problem is: XML provides no way to comment out attributes, only elements. If you want to temporarily disable a certain attribute you must remove it entirely. Or am I missing something? Cheers, Luciano ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
Stephan Richter wrote: On Monday 23 January 2006 20:56, Shane Hathaway wrote: Chris Withers wrote: You didn't read what I said... I assert that anyone who binds the http://namespaces.zope.org/zope to anything other than the default namespace, or http://namespaces.zope.org/browser to anything other than browser: will be causing confusion for themselves an anyone else who has to read the .zcml they've generated. As a matter of style, I'd also prefer that the default namespace always be http://namespaces.zope.org/zope. I'll note that I commonly make browser the default namespace in browser packages. Right. That's what I don't like. :-) But I'm not going to argue about it. Shane ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
On Jan 23, 2006, at 10:08 PM, Stephan Richter wrote: On Monday 23 January 2006 20:56, Shane Hathaway wrote: Chris Withers wrote: You didn't read what I said... I assert that anyone who binds the http://namespaces.zope.org/zope to anything other than the default namespace, or http://namespaces.zope.org/browser to anything other than browser: will be causing confusion for themselves an anyone else who has to read the .zcml they've generated. As a matter of style, I'd also prefer that the default namespace always be http://namespaces.zope.org/zope. I'll note that I commonly make browser the default namespace in browser packages. FWIW, me too. I'm no XML guru (as Fred will attest ;-) ) but reading the namespaces on an XML file seems like basic XML procedure. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
On Monday 23 January 2006 20:56, Shane Hathaway wrote: > Chris Withers wrote: > > You didn't read what I said... I assert that anyone who binds the > > http://namespaces.zope.org/zope to anything other than the default > > namespace, or http://namespaces.zope.org/browser to anything other than > > browser: will be causing confusion for themselves an anyone else who has > > to read the .zcml they've generated. > > As a matter of style, I'd also prefer that the default namespace always > be http://namespaces.zope.org/zope. I'll note that I commonly make browser the default namespace in browser packages. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
Chris Withers wrote: You didn't read what I said... I assert that anyone who binds the http://namespaces.zope.org/zope to anything other than the default namespace, or http://namespaces.zope.org/browser to anything other than browser: will be causing confusion for themselves an anyone else who has to read the .zcml they've generated. As a matter of style, I'd also prefer that the default namespace always be http://namespaces.zope.org/zope. Shane ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
Stephan Richter wrote: On Thursday 19 January 2006 13:45, Chris Withers wrote: - the tags never have any content, that's a sign xml is the wrong solution Not true. All complex directives have sub-directives. Well, what about the most deeply nested directive directives? And what about the common ones as described in your and Philipp's books? do they have contents? ;-) - if anyone has or does rebind xml namespaces, it causes confusion. having to include the namespace definitions at the top of each file is dead chicken most of the time. It's not a dead chicken at all. In every fairly advanced package I write I have at least 2, if not 3 or 4 different namespaces. You didn't read what I said... I assert that anyone who binds the http://namespaces.zope.org/zope to anything other than the default namespace, or http://namespaces.zope.org/browser to anything other than browser: will be causing confusion for themselves an anyone else who has to read the .zcml they've generated. For me, this means I see the namespace declarations you have to write at the zope of _every_ .zcml file as dead chickens... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
On Thursday 19 January 2006 13:45, Chris Withers wrote: > - the tags never have any content, that's a sign xml is the wrong solution Not true. All complex directives have sub-directives. > - if anyone has or does rebind xml namespaces, it causes confusion. > having to include the namespace definitions at the top of each file is > dead chicken most of the time. It's not a dead chicken at all. In every fairly advanced package I write I have at least 2, if not 3 or 4 different namespaces. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] ZCML bad ;-)
Martijn Faassen wrote: Jim Fulton wrote: One issue though is that I want to replace ZConfig with a ZConfig format for zcml. (This would include making ZCML extensible to accept any other format.) The user experience would be the same, but extending it would be a lot easier than extensing ZConfig. I plan to make a proposal for this in the next few days. Running ahead of your proposal, I wonder whether you mean using ZConfig's syntax to replace ZCML's syntax, or replace ZConfig's syntax with ZCML syntax. Both are fundamentally different approaches, but I can read either in what you say here. :) FWIW, I still hate ZCML for the following reasons: - the tags never have any content, that's a sign xml is the wrong solution - if anyone has or does rebind xml namespaces, it causes confusion. having to include the namespace definitions at the top of each file is dead chicken most of the time. - personally, I just find it hard to read.. I'd really like to see everything done in zope.conf-style format, I think this would work for all ZCML's use cases, we could even extend ZConfig to support "namespaces", what do people think? cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
